Why do we celebrate death?

[Trinity]

This was written by my oldest son today.....thought I'd share

"Am I the only one uncomfortable with actively celebrating someone's death? I certainly feel a sense of relief but I find that to be very different from finding joy in violence, even if it be just violence. Must we lower ourselves to the level of those we despise, with triumphant shouts of jubilation? Regardless of his crimes, we are still celebrating death. I think I'd prefer to celebrate life, a life a little bit freer of fear and trepidation. His death may have been a necessary evil, but we cheapen ourselves when we revel in that evil. We show ourselves to be little better than this man, who also reveled in the death of others. Our reasons are vastly different, but the act is still what it is. Violence is abhorrent and should be dealt with as such, even when it may be a necessary last resort."

by M. H. on Monday, May 2, 2011 at 12:11pm

[Kathianne]

This was written by my oldest son today.....thought I'd share

"Am I the only one uncomfortable with actively celebrating someone's death? I certainly feel a sense of relief but I find that to be very different from finding joy in violence, even if it be just violence. Must we lower ourselves to the level of those we despise, with triumphant shouts of jubilation? Regardless of his crimes, we are still celebrating death. I think I'd prefer to celebrate life, a life a little bit freer of fear and trepidation. His death may have been a necessary evil, but we cheapen ourselves when we revel in that evil. We show ourselves to be little better than this man, who also reveled in the death of others. Our reasons are vastly different, but the act is still what it is. Violence is abhorrent and should be dealt with as such, even when it may be a necessary last resort."

by M. H. on Monday, May 2, 2011 at 12:11pm

I like that a child felt that way. How old is he? In nearly all instances I agree with his premise and if he's young, I'd just say what a good, compassionate young man he is.

While Osama wasn't able to rival Hitler, some deaths one just needs to say, "Enjoy hell!" Would I say that to kids? No.

[DragonStryk72]

This was written by my oldest son today.....thought I'd share

"Am I the only one uncomfortable with actively celebrating someone's death? I certainly feel a sense of relief but I find that to be very different from finding joy in violence, even if it be just violence. Must we lower ourselves to the level of those we despise, with triumphant shouts of jubilation? Regardless of his crimes, we are still celebrating death. I think I'd prefer to celebrate life, a life a little bit freer of fear and trepidation. His death may have been a necessary evil, but we cheapen ourselves when we revel in that evil. We show ourselves to be little better than this man, who also reveled in the death of others. Our reasons are vastly different, but the act is still what it is. Violence is abhorrent and should be dealt with as such, even when it may be a necessary last resort."

by M. H. on Monday, May 2, 2011 at 12:11pm

Me and your son would get along just fine, I suspect

[revelarts]

This was written by my oldest son today.....thought I'd share

"Am I the only one uncomfortable with actively celebrating someone's death? I certainly feel a sense of relief but I find that to be very different from finding joy in violence, even if it be just violence. Must we lower ourselves to the level of those we despise, with triumphant shouts of jubilation? Regardless of his crimes, we are still celebrating death. I think I'd prefer to celebrate life, a life a little bit freer of fear and trepidation. His death may have been a necessary evil, but we cheapen ourselves when we revel in that evil. We show ourselves to be little better than this man, who also reveled in the death of others. Our reasons are vastly different, but the act is still what it is. Violence is abhorrent and should be dealt with as such, even when it may be a necessary last resort."

by M. H. on Monday, May 2, 2011 at 12:11pm


Wonderful.
A very God like expression.

[jimnyc]

This was written by my oldest son today.....thought I'd share

"Am I the only one uncomfortable with actively celebrating someone's death? I certainly feel a sense of relief but I find that to be very different from finding joy in violence, even if it be just violence. Must we lower ourselves to the level of those we despise, with triumphant shouts of jubilation? Regardless of his crimes, we are still celebrating death. I think I'd prefer to celebrate life, a life a little bit freer of fear and trepidation. His death may have been a necessary evil, but we cheapen ourselves when we revel in that evil. We show ourselves to be little better than this man, who also reveled in the death of others. Our reasons are vastly different, but the act is still what it is. Violence is abhorrent and should be dealt with as such, even when it may be a necessary last resort."

by M. H. on Monday, May 2, 2011 at 12:11pm

Trinity, with all due respect to you, and to your son who seems to be quite an intelligent kid, it's as easy as this:

Bin Laden declared "Jihad" against all Americans and American interests. He is the face of Al Qaeda and Terrorism worldwide. He has stated that he wants to kill us and would never stop trying to achieve that goal, that he would reach "martyrdom" before doing so. In other words, he was going to continue trying to kill us and our allies unless he himself was killed first.

We gave him his wish. We'll never now how many lives have been saved by killing this man. That alone, IMO, is enough for me to celebrate his death. One could ask me why I can't just be satisfied or content with the knowledge that he can no longer cause harm, and is no longer free to continue his reign of terror. Well, because I see 3,000+ images flashed here in NYC non-stop for 10 years. These images are burned into us here in NY and there are monuments and remembrances at every corner. Knowing he is dead is knowing that I'll never see these again due to Osama or his planning. That makes me happy. Lives are saved.

But the celebration can only be brief as we all know too well that Al Qaeda and terrorists that wish to bring harm to us are still out there. But their leader is now gone. It likely means Al-Zawahari will step into Bin Laden's shoes as the leader of the terror group. And I will celebrate if he dies too, and every single terrorist who dies before having an opportunity to kill more Americans.

[Trinity]

I guess I can divulge his age........ he is 22 he'll be 23 in June..

[krisy]

I gotta agree with jim. I have a facebook friend lecturing everyone about "celebrating" this assholes death and I want to tell her to shut her piehole!!!!'


Everyone reacts differently to different situations. I've seen family members of 9/11 victims on t.v who seem to be fine with the celebrating. I say,to each his own. Let every American react in a way that feels right to them. This bastard affected all our lives,and I think everyone should be able to "celebrate" in their own way,quietly or loudly.

It is an excellent piece of writing tho:clap:

[Abbey Marie]

Well written piece. I am glad to see schools are still graduating some people who can write. :clap:

But- I see this more like the celebrations here for VJ Day or VE Day. We were attacked and suffered greatly because of this man. It is normal and human to feel celebratory after a long-awaited victory over evil.

Btw, my daughter told me that hundreds of kids at her University spilled out onto the green and were shouting "USA". :salute:

[SassyLady]

For me it wasn't the celebration of his death .. it was more a celebration of American accomplishment and that it let the world know that you can run, and you can hide, but WE WILL FIND YOU AND TAKE YOU OUT!!

If Osama had been brought in during Clinton's tenure, we might not have had 9/11....but he was allowed to remain free. I'm glad it was decided to not do a capture, but instead to do a kill. It wasn't just payback for 9/11, it was a payback for all the troops lost in the war against AQ.

[red states rule]

The libs at the Washington Post are not very happy over the reaction to the death of OBL

Anyone surprised?




A generation of young Americans slammed the door Monday on the great big boogeyman of their childhoods with an epic woot-woot and rounds and rounds of “U.S.A.!”

At the news of Osama bin Laden’s death, thousands of people — most of them college-age and in requisite flip-floppy collegiate gear — whipped up a raucous celebration right outside the White House gates that was one part Mardi Gras and two parts Bon Jovi concert.

There were cigars, a few beers, a lacrosse-stick-turned-flagpole waved by a kid who just climbed a statue, joining others aloft in trees and atop lampposts. Well past midnight, cars zipped up and down the streets of downtown Washington with women standing up through sunroofs waving ginormous American flags and guys blowing vuvuzelas, spring break style.

It felt a little crazy, a bit much. Almost vulgar.

Because meanwhile, across the river, at the Pentagon, in the ghostly quiet of lights at the Sept. 11 memorial, a military veteran silently wept.

And many others cried, too, sickened by the death toll, the enormity of almost 10 years of fear, death and terror.

The death of bin Laden will be a grief-tinged, complicated event for many Americans. I immediately saw the mixed reactions of my peers on Twitter and Facebook. Folks who lost close friends or family in the Sept. 11 attacks orchestrated by bin Laden or the war on error that followed had a rush of new emotions and raw pain at the news of even more bloodshed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/complications-after-a-night-of-jubilation/2011/05/02/AFue42XF_story.html

[logroller]

A little Kubrick shout out --"It's better to be alive" That's why we celebrate death.
<object width="425px" height="360px" ><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"/><param name="wmode" value="transparent"/><param name="movie" value="http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=5590253,t=1,mt=video"/><embed src="http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=5590253,t=1,mt=video" width="425" height="360" allowFullScreen="true" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent"></embed></object>

[red states rule]

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/5-2_11Permission_to_20110502084935.jpg

[Trinity]

The libs at the Washington Post are not very happy over the reaction to the death of OBL

Anyone surprised?

and that right there is most likely what caused my son to write what he wrote, he is a college student and lives on campus, poor kid. :eek:

[Noir]

I understand why people are glad he's dead, I'm not exactly displeased myself lol. But there were reports on the news of Americans holding street party like celebrations in their neighbourhoods, the thought of which I find oddly morbid, but whatever ticks their clock I guess.

[red states rule]

I understand why people are glad he's dead, I'm not exactly displeased myself lol. But there were reports on the news of Americans holding street party like celebrations in their neighbourhoods, the thought of which I find oddly morbid, but whatever ticks their clock I guess.

You mean like many in the Arab world did on 9/11?

and we have this from the Washington Compost




I suppose that someone, somewhere in the United States finds it ethically repugnant that our government hunted down and killed Osama bin Laden. I am not that someone. It is just and necessary that this evil man was finally punished for the mass murders he engineered on September 11, 2001. But I am repelled by the scenes of mindless jubilation, from Times Square to the park in front of the White House, that erupted after President Obama delivered the news in a properly sober tone Sunday night.

I am even more repelled by the pundits who began blathering Monday morning about the renaissance of patriotism they discerned in the crowds of young people (mainly men) who materialized on the streets to chant “USA…USA,” on the mall to strip off their clothes in the reflecting pool, and near the bars around Times Square to lift a few cold ones after literally wrapping themselves in the flag. On NBC’s Morning Joe, Peggy Noonan of The Wall Street Journal did everything but crow when she declared that the killing of Bin Laden sends a wonderful message to children because it demonstrates that “bad guys do get caught.” Mike Barnicle, another regular member of the commentariat at the table, saw the can-do spirit of America resurrected and predicted that regular guys looking for jobs would resume the search with more of a spring in their steps.

This is the sort of sentimental hogwash that has elevated unreason to a fundamental principle of American public life. “Bad guys do get caught.” One very bad guy was caught in this instance by years of intelligence work and by the Navy SEALs, the most elite military unit in the nation’s armed forces. That’s it. The episode says nothing about the general competence or achievements of Americans as a people or America as a nation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/spirited-atheist/post/bin-ladens-death-and-the-madness-of-crowds/2011/05/02/AFqhEPZF_blog.html

[Trinity]

I think this sums it up...........

The Psychology of Revenge: Why We Should Stop Celebrating Osama Bin Laden's Death

While the killing of Osama Bin Laden is being enthusiastically celebrated throughout America and some parts of the world, to say that such merriment is out of order will surely be considered heresy. Nonetheless, I'm saying it--because it needs to be said. For starters, let me say this: "Those of you who are celebrating--could you just pause for a moment and consider: What message are you sending the world?"

I certainly understand how those who have suffered from the events of 9/11 may feel relieved, even happy, to have "closure" after ten years of waiting for "justice to be done"--and I don't quarrel with such feelings. Closure is a natural yearning and can help people move on from serious trauma. And, of course, feelings are feelings. If you feel joyful, you feel joyful.

But celebration in the streets and on the airwaves is neither appropriate nor advisable--really--no matter what your feelings of elation. Here's why.


rest of article......

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pamela-gerloff/the-psychology-of-revenge_b_856184.html

[red states rule]

I think this sums it up...........

The Psychology of Revenge: Why We Should Stop Celebrating Osama Bin Laden's Death

While the killing of Osama Bin Laden is being enthusiastically celebrated throughout America and some parts of the world, to say that such merriment is out of order will surely be considered heresy. Nonetheless, I'm saying it--because it needs to be said. For starters, let me say this: "Those of you who are celebrating--could you just pause for a moment and consider: What message are you sending the world?"

I certainly understand how those who have suffered from the events of 9/11 may feel relieved, even happy, to have "closure" after ten years of waiting for "justice to be done"--and I don't quarrel with such feelings. Closure is a natural yearning and can help people move on from serious trauma. And, of course, feelings are feelings. If you feel joyful, you feel joyful.

But celebration in the streets and on the airwaves is neither appropriate nor advisable--really--no matter what your feelings of elation. Here's why.


rest of article......

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pamela-gerloff/the-psychology-of-revenge_b_856184.html

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gv050311dAPR20110503044519.jpg

[gabosaurus]

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZkRxoaKKftg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[SassyLady]

I understand why people are glad he's dead, I'm not exactly displeased myself lol. But there were reports on the news of Americans holding street party like celebrations in their neighbourhoods, the thought of which I find oddly morbid, but whatever ticks their clock I guess.

I guess you think all those Europeans that celebrated when Hitler died were kinda morbid also.

[red states rule]

I guess you think all those Europeans that celebrated when Hitler died were kinda morbid also.

and now a muscial tribute on the death of OBL

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SzlpTRNIAvc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Noir]

I guess you think all those Europeans that celebrated when Hitler died were kinda morbid also.

I think there was a difference, because in Hitlers death there was the end of the war, meaning Fathers, Brothers and Sons, many of which had been gone years, would be returning, alive. That is not the case here.

[jimnyc]

I think there was a difference, because in Hitlers death there was the end of the war, meaning Fathers, Brothers and Sons, many of which had been gone years, would be returning, alive. That is not the case here.

So celebrating death IS ok, as long as you believe in the reason and/or effect of the death?

[fj1200]

So celebrating death IS ok, as long as you believe in the reason and/or effect of the death?

Justifying the Euro reaction is helpful as well.

[revelarts]

RED, you've mentioned the Muslims celebrating over 911 several times.

But you say it like it's was wrong for them celebrate, which i agree with.
and yet you defend it's as right for us celebrate.

You can't prove your case against Noir and others by negateing your own position.


When I was a teenager I always thought it was morbidly funny in the Wizard of OZ when the Munchens Celebrated, had a parade and sang songs. "the Wicked Witch is deeead, yoho yo ho!..."

it's not so funny almost seeing it in real life.

I can't help but be reminded of photos of hangings where people are standing around with big grins.


Satisfaction sure, celebrate a chapter closed, Absolutely, But a blow out Dance on his Grave Party in the movies is kinda satisfying but in real life is kinda creepy.

[Little-Acorn]

Why do we celebrate death?

What you mean "We", kimosabe?

I don't know about you, but I don't celebrate death. In this case, I DO celebrate the removal of a deadly threat against me, mine, and my country. Who wouldn't celebrate that?

Sure, it's too bad that death was necessary to achieve that. But who made it necessary? Mr. bin Laden himself, the guy who is now dead. If he'd left us any other choice, it would have been better. But he surely did not - was was careful to make sure that the only way we could stop him from killing large numbers of us (again), was to kill him in turn.

So be it.

I've heard people say that they wish he had suffered. What's the matter with them? I don't care whether he suffers. He's not worth the trouble. He made himself a deadly threat, and now we've done what we had to do: remove the threat. That's the best possible conclusion to the matter. End of story.

Yes, I celebrate the removal of the threat. That's very much worth celebrating. Who wouldn't celebrate that?

[Abbey Marie]

RED, you've mentioned the Muslims celebrating over 911 several times.

But you say it like it's was wrong for them celebrate, which i agree with.
and yet you defend it's as right for us celebrate.

You can't prove your case against Noir and others by negateing your own position.


When I was a teenager I always thought it was morbidly funny in the Wizard of OZ when the Munchens Celebrated, had a parade and sang songs. "the Wicked Witch is deeead, yoho yo ho!..."

it's not so funny almost seeing it in real life.

I can't help but be reminded of photos of hangings where people are standing around with big grins.


Satisfaction sure, celebrate a chapter closed, Absolutely, But a blow out Dance on his Grave Party in the movies is kinda satisfying but in real life is kinda creepy.

Context, RevA. Muslims were celebrating the unprovoked killing of thousands of innocent people. Americans are celebrating the killing of the evil man who made that happen. Do you really not see the difference here? There are very few absolutes in life.

[Little-Acorn]

How many are actually "celebrating death"?

And how many are celebrating the freedom we just gained by the elimination of a threat against us?

If bin Laden had instead been somehow frozen in a block of carbonite, a kind that CANNOT be unfrozen by God or man ever, I'd be just as happy as I am now, even though he was still alive. And for the same reason: The threat he posed against us would be permanently removed. THAT is what I celebrate. As I said before, I don't give a shiite whether he is dead or alive... I just want him guaranteed to not threaten or harm the rest of us any more, ever.

Unfortunately, since we don't have any such carbonite blocks, we have to settle for the only other way possible to permanently remove the threat. That's fine, too. I don't care which method we use, or what its effect on bin Laden is. We permanently removed the threat. I'm happy we did. End of story. And the freedom we gained is certainly worth celebrating.

In case the rest of you have forgotten, "Peace" is not the absence of fighting. It's the absence of threat. If we had somehow kept bin Laden cooped up in a cave for the rest of his life, we would not have achieved peace. Now, we have achieved peace, at least where this particular threat is concerned. Whether through carbonite, or through the other method.

[revelarts]

Context, RevA. Muslims were celebrating the unprovoked killing of thousands of innocent people. Americans are celebrating the killing of the evil man who made that happen. Do you really not see the difference here? There are very few absolutes in life.

Context?
The dancing Muslims thought America was Evil the GREAT Satan and had killed innocent as well and the U.S. was getting some payback I assume. They probably thought of any innocents here as just collateral damage, if they thought off them at all.

We Know Bin Laden is an evil man and a mass murderer. And the Innocents Killed in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya to get justice are just collateral damage, if we think of them at all.

I see the difference.

[jimnyc]

Context?
The dancing Muslims thought America was Evil the GREAT Satan and had killed innocent as well and the U.S. was getting some payback I assume. They probably thought of any innocents here as just collateral damage, if they thought off them at all.

We Know Bin Laden is an evil man and a mass murderer. And the Innocents Killed in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya to get justice are just collateral damage, if we think of them at all.

I see the difference.

You don't see jack shit. One was celebrating the death of 3,000 innocent citizens. The other celebrated the death of one man, a terrorist, who masterminded all of those deaths. Your desire to justify their celebrating innocent civilian deaths on 9/11 with the US celebrating OBL's death is fucking retarded.

[red states rule]

Context, RevA. Muslims were celebrating the unprovoked killing of thousands of innocent people. Americans are celebrating the killing of the evil man who made that happen. Do you really not see the difference here? There are very few absolutes in life.

You stole my thunder Abbey. As usual you are spot on. Weak peiople like ReaV will never see the difference and never "get it"

In their world, they think by celebrating the death of a mass murderer is wrong and we should be more like him and stand meak and silent on the sidelines as not to "provoke" more outrage from the terrorists

[red states rule]

Context?
The dancing Muslims thought America was Evil the GREAT Satan and had killed innocent as well and the U.S. was getting some payback I assume. They probably thought of any innocents here as just collateral damage, if they thought off them at all.

We Know Bin Laden is an evil man and a mass murderer. And the Innocents Killed in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya to get justice are just collateral damage, if we think of them at all.

I see the difference.

So what did the US do to warrent the 9/11 attack?

You have terrorist loving idiots rejoicing people were burned alive, or fell 95 stories to ther death - and WE are the bad guys for being happy the guy behind the slaughter assumed room temp?

Give me a break Rev

[gabosaurus]

You don't see jack shit. One was celebrating the death of 3,000 innocent citizens. The other celebrated the death of one man, a terrorist, who masterminded all of those deaths. Your desire to justify their celebrating innocent civilian deaths on 9/11 with the US celebrating OBL's death is fucking retarded.

Your one-sided skewered view of life is beyond stupid. Revelarts is making a valid point that is unable to penetrate your vapid thick skull. So please attempt to read this and see how it measures.

Terrorists don't see anyone as "innocent." The pathetic assmunch who plotted the 9-11 attacks felt all Americans were religious deviants. A sick point of view, but those were his exact thoughts. He thought the U.S. needed to be punished for its presence on "holy land" in the Middle East. The attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon were seen as "symbolic."

I was happy as can be about OBL buying it in the head. But I wasn't going to go dancing in the street. Americans see themselves as more civilized than terrorists.
I don't have a problems with others doing it. But to say we are better than terrorists while celebrating death is beyond empty headed. But I suppose we should be used to it by now.

[red states rule]

Your one-sided skewered view of life is beyond stupid. Revelarts is making a valid that is unable to penetrate your vapid thick skull. So please attempt to read this and see it is measures.

Terrorists don't see anyone as "innocent." The sick assmunch who plotted the 9-11 attacks felt all Americans were religious deviants. A sick point of view, but those were his exact thoughts. He thought the U.S. needed to be punished for its presence on "holy land" in the Middle East. The attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon were seen as "symbolic."

I was happy as can be about OBL buying it in the head. But I wasn't going to go dancing in the street. Americans see themselves as more civilized than terrorists.
I don't have a problems with others doing it. But to say we are better than terrorists while celebrating death is beyond empty headed. But I suppose we should be used to it by now.

I see your tolerant side is coming out again

I suspect the only time you would dance in the street over someone dying is when either Pres Bush or VP Cheney passes away Gabby

[red states rule]

These namby pambies seem to be everywhere right now.





On NBC's Today on Wednesday, co-host Matt Lauer worried about Americans celebrating the death of Osama bin Laden: "...your children are going to see, and have already seen, people in the streets celebrating about the death of someone and that's a contradictory image for them." Today contributor and psychiatrist Gail Saltz replied: "Absolutely, very disturbing for them."

The segment was on how to talk to children about the killing of bin Laden and Saltz speculated that kids may ask: "Why are people partying, being happy that anybody was killed?" She suggested those who celebrated may now regret their actions: "I think it's really important to talk about this, because what you saw was a lot of people who, in the impulse of the moment, reacted in a way that later on they may not be happy about."

Saltz further declared:

...this is a conversation really about moral development that you're going to help your child with. So do they feel right about people partying, and smiling, and looking happy? Does it look different enough from recent pictures we've seen of what went on in Egypt and so on? I think those are the kinds of – and I think it's fine for you to say, 'I don't think they should be celebrating,' if you don't.

Almost as an afterthought she briefly entertained an alternative perspective: "Or 'I think they were celebrating because of their patriotism.'"

Read more: http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-drennen/2011/05/04/nbcs-today-frets-celebrations-after-bin-ladens-death-were-very-disturb#ixzz1LQNl4F2o

[Abbey Marie]

Context?
The dancing Muslims thought America was Evil the GREAT Satan and had killed innocent as well and the U.S. was getting some payback I assume. They probably thought of any innocents here as just collateral damage, if they thought off them at all.

We Know Bin Laden is an evil man and a mass murderer. And the Innocents Killed in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya to get justice are just collateral damage, if we think of them at all.

I see the difference.

Your assumption of what the terrorists intended on 9/11 (if you even believe it), is not persuasive. The world knows that the 9/11 attacks were purposely made against innocent people. That was the whole point- to scare America to its knees. To change our way of life.
When we hurt civilians in a war, otoh, it truly is unintended and collateral.
Again, you do not seem to see the difference.

[Abbey Marie]

These namby pambies seem to be everywhere right now.

We have somehow taught our daughter that the triumph of good over evil is a good thing. While we are not out in the streets dancing, she isn't confused at all about how to react to the news.

[gabosaurus]

Dear RSR, as usual, you are missing the point. No one is trying to justify the 9-11 attacks, or say that they were deserved. What revelarts was saying was that no one should celebrate death. One side's chicken dinner is another side's dead bird. Yes, one side is right and one side is wrong. But that doesn't mean that one plus one doesn't equal two. One plus one equals one only plays on the Fox News channel.

[Little-Acorn]

Your one-sided skewered view of life is beyond stupid ..... a valid point that is unable to penetrate your vapid thick skull.

Gabby is accusing someone else of having a one-sided skewered view of life that is beyond stupid, and saying that a valid point is unable to penetrate someone else's vapid thick skull.

Isn't that cute? :laugh:

[Sir Evil]

Dear RSR, as usual, you are missing the point. No one is trying to justify the 9-11 attacks, or say that they were deserved. What revelarts was saying was that no one should celebrate death. One side's chicken dinner is another side's dead bird. Yes, one side is right and one side is wrong. But that doesn't mean that one plus one doesn't equal two. One plus one equals one only plays on the Fox News channel.

I think I need to celebrate, so gabosaurus... you know what to do...:laugh2:

[Kathianne]

Dear RSR, as usual, you are missing the point. No one is trying to justify the 9-11 attacks, or say that they were deserved. What revelarts was saying was that no one should celebrate death. One side's chicken dinner is another side's dead bird. Yes, one side is right and one side is wrong. But that doesn't mean that one plus one doesn't equal two. One plus one equals one only plays on the Fox News channel.

Huh?

[Sir Evil]

Huh?

Seriously? That the first time you thought that after reading a post from this dingbat? Tell the truth!

[Kathianne]

Seriously? That the first time you thought that after reading a post from this dingbat? Tell the truth!

No, I've used the same before. Com'on, you've not been here for eons. ;)

[Sir Evil]

No, I've used the same before. Com'on, you've not been here for eons. ;)

:laugh2:

And there is a reason for that, this dingbat included! How do you do it day after day? :bow3:

[Kathianne]

:laugh2:

And there is a reason for that, this dingbat included! How do you do it day after day? :bow3:

Lots of coffee and other readings. ;)

[Abbey Marie]

Whether I agree with them or not, I thought Gabby made some rational points.

[gabosaurus]

Whether I agree with them or not, I thought Gabby made some rational points.

Don't be silly, Abbey! I'm a liberal. I don't make rational points. :p

[red states rule]

Dear RSR, as usual, you are missing the point. No one is trying to justify the 9-11 attacks, or say that they were deserved. What revelarts was saying was that no one should celebrate death. One side's chicken dinner is another side's dead bird. Yes, one side is right and one side is wrong. But that doesn't mean that one plus one doesn't equal two. One plus one equals one only plays on the Fox News channel.

Weak people like Rev are worried about the reaction of terrorists who want to kill as many Americans as possible

In his world, and yours Gabby, he thinks making nice with them will make them put down their guns and bombs and retire form AQ. They will join the local PTA and become law abiding citizens of the world

Real life does not work that way. The US military took out a mass murderer and we should be rejoicing. If Rev, you, and others want to stand on the sidelines and sit on your hands then do so. That is your right

Of course if the terrorists win you may not have any hands to sit on since you would probably be dead

[fj1200]

Weak people like Rev...

Posit not proven.

[revelarts]

Weak people like Rev are worried about the reaction of terrorists who want to kill as many Americans as possible

In his world, and yours Gabby, he thinks making nice with them will make them put down their guns and bombs and retire form AQ. They will join the local PTA and become law abiding citizens of the world

Real life does not work that way. The US military took out a mass murderer and we should be rejoicing. If Rev, you, and others want to stand on the sidelines and sit on your hands then do so. That is your right

Of course if the terrorists win you may not have any hands to sit on since you would probably be dead

Whoah
Red,
It's a good thing we all have big strong men like you to set us strait Red.
to tell us what to really fear.
"ALL THE TERRORIST -Muslims?- THAT ARE GONNA KILL AS MANY AMERICANS AS POSSIBLE... IF WE DON"T GET THEM 1ST!!!!"
Is there a problem with this picture?

I don't think 50 guys in Afghanistan, 200 guys in Pakistan and 3000+ guys world wide is a very frightening prospect. I think our military and Intel services can handle the problem fine. Better if most where home. And without torture.

"Lay down their guns and bombs"?
If they are so tough why are THEY hiding.
Terrorism is a losers tactic.

Creating the fear and response that you display.
I'm not wondering if every women in burka is a terrorist "suspect".

Red I'm not the one who so afraid of the terrorist that I thinks the gov't has to run there hands down children's pants to check for bombs.

I'm not the one that feels like terrorist are breeding in of every mosque ready to take down the country if we don't smart bomb all 3rd world countries. Innocent men women and children be danged.

It's really sad and strange that promotion humane and civilized actions is twisted into "appeasing terrorist". You understand exactly what I meant in this thread. And others. Don't let the fear of terrorist turn you into anything close to them.
And you don't make any sense trying to lump me in with some fantasy caricature of people whose ideas you don't agree with.
The REAL world and real people are more nuanced than Ann Coulter or Micheal Moore would lead us to believe.

[red states rule]

Rev, take a pill and chill

No where did I say all Muslims were terrorists, But so far nearly all the terrorists have been Muslims

Maybe you can dismiss 50 guys in Afghanistan, 200 guys in Pakistan and 3000+ guys world wide as a frightening prospect, but 19 terrorists murdered nearly 3,000 people in one morning

Terrorists have been found a many mosques, and shown to be spreading thier religion of "peace" by calling for the murder of Americans. Again you can dismiss this if you wish

I do not fear the terrorists Rev. I want them dead or locked up. As long as we do not have weak people like you in charge of that department I have confidence in our intel folks to get the job done

I also hope the libs will not continue to harass them and make their job harder by being more interested in the rights of terrorists and not stopping their attacks

I do know in the real world if people like you were in charge during the Bush years, the waterborading of the terrorists would not have happened - thus OBL would be alive and well today

[red states rule]

Posit not proven.

Revs way of obtaining information from terrorists

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/Waterboarding_Altern_120110505081029.jpg

[revelarts]

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IJ79gp-tNao?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IJ79gp-tNao?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

[fj1200]

Ooh, dueling cartoons; serious debate going on here my friends. :coffee:

[revelarts]

Another "weak liberal" on torture.

“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” - George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775


“‘Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren who have fallen into their hands,’ he wrote. In all respects the prisoners were to be treated no worse than American soldiers; and in some respects, better. "Through this approach, Washington sought to shame his British adversaries, and to demonstrate the moral superiority of the American cause.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-horton/a-tale-of-two-georges_1_b_41091.html


"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."
from the convention on torture
"No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. . . Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law.
"

[revelarts]

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bx2Nky_PR1c?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bx2Nky_PR1c?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

[red states rule]

Ooh, dueling cartoons; serious debate going on here my friends. :coffee:

Plese see post # 50

No repsonse from REv as of yet.

It is hard to have a debate when one party does not respond

[red states rule]

and the Washington Compsot does not seem to care if OBL murdered 3,000 people - WE are the bad guys for being happy about his death




Some Americans celebrated the killing of Osama bin Laden loudly, with chanting and frat-party revelry in the streets. Others were appalled — not by the killing, but by the celebrations.

“It was appropriate to go after Bin Laden, just to try to cut the head off that serpent, but I don’t think it’s decent to celebrate a killing like that,” said George Horwitz, a retired meat cutter and Army veteran in Bynum, N.C

Others were much more critical. “The worst kind of jingoistic hubris,” a University of Virginia student wrote in the college newspaper, The Cavalier Daily. In blogs and online forums, some people asked: Doesn’t taking revenge and glorying in it make us look just like the terrorists?

The answer is no, social scientists say: it makes us look like human beings. In an array of research, both inside laboratories and out in the world, psychologists have shown that the appetite for revenge is a sensitive measure of how a society perceives both the seriousness of a crime and any larger threat that its perpetrator may pose.

Revenge is most satisfying when there are strong reasons for exacting it, both practical and emotional.

“Revenge evolved as a deterrent, to impose a cost on people who threaten a community and to reach into the heads of others who may be contemplating similar behavior,” said Michael McCullough, a psychologist at the University of Miami and author of “Beyond Revenge: The Evolution of the Forgiveness Instinct” (Jossey-Bass, 2008). “In that sense it is a very natural response.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/06/health/06revenge.html?_r=2&scp=2&sq=benedict%20carey&st=cse

[red states rule]

Does anyone here support the idea of paying someone to nisult you? that is what is going on at PBS

Your tax dolloars are being used to insult you the people who are paying their bills





A PBS viewer might be surprised that Tavis Smiley might recognize the killing of Osama bin Laden as a newsworthy event, since he believes Christians kill people in bombings every day in America. But on the day after the Osama mission succeeded, Smiley went straight to the radical left for the official PBS reaction. There's your tax dollars at work again, providing a megaphone for The Nation magazine and Pacifica Radio in the person of Jeremy Scahill, who brought the usual radical buzzkill. He described his mood as somber over the "idiotic" cheering that signals American "blood lust."

SMILEY: Does that mean that you had your stomach turned by all the cheering and jubilation outside the White House?


SCAHILL: Well, I think that quite frankly it’s idiotic to treat these kinds of international events like sporting events, like it’s the World Cup that we’re cheering for here. I think in a way it really is insulting to those who’ve lost loved ones in these wars and who lost loved ones on 9/11, to trivialize it by jumping up and down like that.

If that’s really what moves people in their heart, well, then I guess that’s fine for them, but I think a lot of people who lost loved ones on 9/11, certainly those that I’ve been talking to, are not jumping up and down. I think they feel a sense of sorrow, but they also feel a sense that at least they can have some sort of closure to the idea that this man, Osama bin Laden, who masterminded 9/11, has been brought to some form of justice. But no, Tavis, I don’t co-sign those kinds of actions. I never do. I don’t think it’s appropriate, and ultimately, I think it sends the world the wrong message. I think that President Obama treated this as a law enforcement operation to try to bring a culprit to justice rather than invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, and I think our response to that should be one of reflection on where we go from here, because this certainly isn’t over.

SMILEY: So what does all the cheering and jubilation that we have seen, the flag-waving and the like, what does that, to your point, Jeremy, say to the world?

SCAHILL: Well, I think that it sends a message that we are a culture that somehow is celebrating death and targeted execution, and haven’t even thought about all of the losses that have come with this, particularly in the case of Iraq, where upwards of a million people have been killed. I also think it gives an impression of sort of bloodthirstiness that I think is the wrong vibe to be pushing right now in the world. I think that we need to do everything we can to try to reach out to the Muslim world, to try to say that we have a lot more in common than we have that divides us, and I think that this kind of jumping up and down, chanting "USA, USA," sends a message of almost sort of blood lust. I think we need to be really careful about that.

Read more: http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2011/05/06/pbss-tavis-smiley-brings-radical-journo-call-osama-death-cheering-idioti#ixzz1LbhdVwhW

[revelarts]

Rev, take a pill and chill
No where did I say all Muslims were terrorists, But so far nearly all the terrorists have been Muslims



Maybe you can dismiss 50 guys in Afghanistan, 200 guys in Pakistan and 3000+ guys world wide as a frightening prospect, but 19 terrorists murdered nearly 3,000 people in one morning

Most of them where trained in the U.S.. and some got special Visas from the U.S.. embassy.




Terrorists have been found a many mosques, and shown to be spreading their religion of "peace" by calling for the murder of Americans. Again you can dismiss this if you wish

I do not fear the terrorists Rev. I want them dead or locked up.
Before or after a trial. Oh that's right the world is the battlefield so torture then shoot "suspects" on sight. never mind



As long as we do not have weak people like you in charge of that department I have confidence in our intel folks to get the job done
I thought only 3 people were tortured. There must be many more weak people in the gov't than you think. Unless most in the cia and military use tortures as needed.
but it's was only 3 people not people but *$^$* TERRORIST^%**.



I also hope the libs will not continue to harass them and make their job harder by being more interested in the rights of terrorists and not stopping their attacks

You somehow refuse to believe that you can get info from people without torture and busting the constitution all to heck. I'm glad your not in charge Red.



I do know in the real world if people like you were in charge during the Bush years, the waterborading of the terrorists would not have happened - thus OBL would be alive and well today
You don't know that red. You think you do but you don't.


And Here again are quotes from weak leaders like me WHO WERE in CHARGE and AGAINST TORTURE.






“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” - George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775


“Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren who have fallen into their hands,’ he wrote. In all respects the prisoners were to be treated no worse than American soldiers; and in some respects, better.
"Through this approach, Washington sought to shame his British adversaries, and to demonstrate the moral superiority of the American cause.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-...1_b_41091.html



"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."
from the convention on torture sign by the weak Reagan
"No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. . . Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law.[/QUOTE]

Torture doesn't equal strength my friend it's evil.

[red states rule]

Rev you are starting to remind me of someone else. Boith of you are sounding alot alike


<object width="518" height="419"><param name="movie" value="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=hdaG2GaG4z" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=hdaG2GaG4z" allowfullscreen="true" width="518" height="419" /></object>

[revelarts]

I thought I sounded like George Washington and Ronald Reagan.

that's who quoted, should i post it again?

[jimnyc]

I thought I sounded like George Washington and Ronald Reagan.

that's who quoted, should i to post it again?

I'd bet a billion dollars that if either of them fine gentlemen could of spoke recently, they would have waterboarded the fuck out of muhammed and celebrated like college students over OBL's death.

What you do with opponents of war is one thing - but these cockroach terrorists are NOT opponents of war. They are cockroaches, and they need to be eliminated by any means necessary. Being THEY don't apply the principles that Reagan and Washington refer to, we must "adapt and overcome" in order to win.

Quote goes to Gunny Highway aka Clint Eastwood

[red states rule]

I thought I sounded like George Washington and Ronald Reagan.

that's who quoted, should i post it again?

You are repeating yourself so why not?

Washington hanged and shot many of his troops for breaking regulations, and Reagan would not have hesitated to waterboard a terorist if it saved lives

You on the other hand, you offer them coffe and cake in a vain attempt to reason with them

and here is more from the man with more chins then a Chinese phonebook

http://www.newsbusters.org/sites/default/files/thumbnail_photos/2011/March/michaelmoore.JPG

[revelarts]

from the convention on torture sign by the weak Reagan
"No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. . . Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law.

Torture doesn't equal strength my friend it's evil.[/QUOTE]

"state of War" War on terror
"internal political instability" home grown terrorist
"any other public emergency" mass murder, genocide

oh but i think this covers it
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever,


we don't need torture to win.

we don't need a lynch mob mentality to handle the problem at all.

[red states rule]

Torture doesn't equal strength my friend it's evil.

"state of War" War on terror
"internal political instability" home grown terrorist
"any other public emergency" mass murder, genocide

oh but i think this covers it
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever,


we don't need torture to win.

we don't need a lynch mob mentality to handle the problem at all.[/QUOTE]

The terrorists thank you for your loyal support

Why not become a Counselor at Club GITMO so you can give them a warm hug?

[jimnyc]

Torture doesn't equal strength my friend it's evil

"state of War" War on terror
"internal political instability" home grown terrorist
"any other public emergency" mass murder, genocide

oh but i think this covers it
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever,


we don't need torture to win.

we don't need a lynch mob mentality to handle the problem at all.

And we certainly can't beat terrorists with the mentality of a pussy

[red states rule]

And we certainly can't beat terrorists with the mentality of a pussy

I have a bumper sticker for Rev

http://images0.cpcache.com/product/248705160v14_480x480_Front.jpg

[revelarts]

And we certainly can't beat terrorists with the mentality of a pussy


I have a bumper sticker for Rev

http://images0.cpcache.com/product/248705160v14_480x480_Front.jpg


Gentlemen Good night and God Bless.

Check under the bed for terrorist before go to sleep.

[jimnyc]

Gentlemen Good night and God Bless.

Check under the bed for terrorist before go to sleep.

No need to, we don't have pussies like you in charge and things have been much safer, tons and tons and tons of terrorists have been killed and the mastermind of 9/11 is being eaten by crabs as I type this.

[fj1200]

Plese see post # 50

No repsonse from REv as of yet.

It is hard to have a debate when one party does not respond

He's making his point and responding quite well in my view.

[red states rule]

He's making his point and responding quite well in my view.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion

I find it sad those supporting the rights of terrorists will not admit waterboarding saved lives and led the US to OBL

That is the purpose of this thread

[fj1200]

I thought it was the question of celebrating death. Terrorists celebrate death because that is their purpose. We shouldn't celebrate death because that is not our purpose.

[red states rule]

I thought it was the question of celebrating death. Terrorists celebrate death because that is their purpose. We shouldn't celebrate death because that is not our purpose.

That is what the thread started out as. Now it is a discussion of those who are fighting like hell for the rights of terrorists

It is also sad to see how many people "offended" by those of us who openly show our delight over the death of OBL

These people have a serious hard on for the terrorists

[fj1200]

That is what the thread started out as. Now it is a discussion of those who are fighting like hell for the rights of terrorists

Some may be but I don't think Rev is "fighting for the rights of terrorists," I think he's fighting for the civility of the US and against the power of the state to harm.


It is also sad to see how many people "offended" by those of us who openly show our delight over the death of OBL

To each his own.


These people have a serious hard on for the terrorists

You're strawmen are burning.

[revelarts]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion

Agreed, this is America and that's the way we roll.



I find it sad those supporting the rights of terrorists...

Here's IMO is were you go off track Red.
we've covered this ground before but you insist on making caricature of my view of calling it supporting the rights of terrorist. wanting to give them tea etc..
While you yourself keep insisting that waterboarding only happened 3 times. if that's the case then the rest of these ten years the strong men of the intell and military have NOT needed to use it AT ALL. An have themselves been supporting "the rights of terrorist" 99.9999% of the time. By giving them milk and cookies AND getting all the info they need from every other terrorist. If it was only done 3..., well not 3 times but on 3 people i guess. because KLM got it done over 100 times and apparently still didn't get to everything he knew AND we have legally forfeited any right to put him jail for all the crimes he's committed By breaking our own laws. So that we cobbled together new rules to Protect our option to jail under any circumstances.


Lets do a pro and con list.


Cons Torture:
•It's Immoral. Condemned for centuries as barbaric and evil.
•It breaks our laws and standards given from Washington to Reagan.
•It's completely Unnecessary
because it doesn't get quality intel
because professional interrogators of the Mlitary & Intell say there are better more reliable methods.
•It creates more enemies. Generals on down to soldiers on the ground have reported exactly that and have requested the practice stopped and Gitmo closed because of tortures counterproductive impact on the ground.
•It Corrupts our own laws and constitution. Indefinite detention and execution after capture without a real trial has been understood to be illegal since the magna carta in the 1200s when the king lost arbitrary power.
•Slippery slope. Nearly all of the new laws against terror have begun to be applied to U.S. Citizens as well and the definition of terrorist suspects has broadened to supposed counterfeiters and children and the handicapped at airports. Terror suspects have been tortured, legally(?) why not others. In a legal sense there is no barrier to this.

I was going to take address the the pros of torture ("Pros of torture", it's hard even writing that phrase down sounds like a the beginning of a joke.)
But I'll let someone else make that case. But ill address the 2 you mention below red.


...will not admit waterboarding saved lives and led the US to OBL

given the action the benifit of the doubt
"Waterboarding saved lives."
if so, It cost more lives than it supposedly saved by creating more enemies. And the lives it saved it could have been saved by normal methods used for the past 100 years or so.

"and led the US to OBL"
same answer as above.

[red states rule]

and in most cases the same people who lecture us about civility, hate, and not showing joy over the death of someone are the same people in this video

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/oQ7r5ivupTU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[revelarts]

Kind of hard to have a debate when people don't respond to comments, see post #75.

[Kathianne]

Kind of hard to have a debate when people don't respond to comments, see post #75.

People are not required to respond to anyone's posts, I've literally hundreds that no one has responded to. I guess either what I wrote shut them up or they weren't interested in what I said or they thought what I wrote was too dumb to respond to. Then again, they may have been of the mindset that 'If I have nothing nice or reasonable to say, I'll remain silent.' So take non-responses as you will.

[Trinity]

well since this thread seems to have gone off to a debate....I'd just like to add that I have no sympathy for terrorist's and have no issues with how Bin Laden was taken out....:salute:

Did I feel like celebrating? No...Did I feel relief? To a degree yes, but the threat is still there.

[revelarts]

I'll continue the torture conversaton over at the other thread.

[revelarts]

People are not required to respond to anyone's posts, I've literally hundreds that no one has responded to. I guess either what I wrote shut them up or they weren't interested in what I said or they thought what I wrote was too dumb to respond to. Then again, they may have been of the mindset that 'If I have nothing nice or reasonable to say, I'll remain silent.' So take non-responses as you will.

Yes I know Kath I do the same.
But this time i thought it was kinda funny that RED made this post about hypocrisy after my post. While earlier he called me out using the exact same comment I used above.

[fj1200]

and in most cases the same people who lecture us...

Are you debating Rev's views or those above?

[Kathianne]

Yes I know Kath I do the same.
But this time i thought it was kinda funny that RED made this post about hypocrisy after my post. While earlier he called me out using the exact same comment I used above.

That's cool, I missed his.