Beware of the Huckabee/Herman Cain “fairtax“!

[johnwk]

.


This is absolutely amazing. The big con for a massive expansion of what Congress may tax is still being promoted as a “fairtax“, this time by Mike Huckabee and Herman Cain.


So, let us examine how this tax, which is a tax upon the sale of “property” would affect Mary and Joe Sixpack, ordinary working people. Mary and Joe have two children and find it necessary to earn extra money to pay their bills. Mary baby sits for neighbors in the community and cleans homes on weekends to raise extra money while Joe, who works a full time job for a company as a house painter, also paints homes and does handyman type work on his own time for people living in his community to raise extra cash.


Well, surprise, surprise! Under the alleged fair tax Mary and Joe Sixpack’s inalienable right to sell the property they have in their labor becomes a taxable event under the Huckabee/Herman Cain “fairtax“, and Mary and Joe must first register with government to sell the property they have in their labor, and then, collect a federal tax for Congress, file federal fairtax returns under the penalty of perjury 12 times a freaken year, and they will be compelled to keep any records Congress may dream up, not to mention the threat of audits which will constantly haunt them if they dare to sell the property they have in their labor.


In addition to filing fairtax returns 12 times a year and giving government a 23 percent cut of the action when selling the property they have in their labor, Mary and Joe also get to pay a new 23 percent tax upon their purchases under the Huckabee/Herman Cain “fairtax“.
.

But the “fairtax” con doesn’t stop here. If the Huckabee/Herman Cain “fairtax“ were adopted and put into practice, and if the 16th Amendment were eventually repealed under its companion legislation, H.J.RES 16 which proposes to repeal the 16th Amendment, there is another big surprise waiting for all those who think that Congress’ authority to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and other incomes is ended under the Huckabee/Herman Cain “fairtax“. The ringleaders behind H.J.RES. 16 refuse to add the following words to their repeal of the 16th Amendment:


The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money.


And without this language in H.J.RES. 16, which I have attempted to get fairtax.org to add to H.J.RES 16 for years, Congress still has authority to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and other incomes under the Huckabee/Herman Cain “fairtax“. For example, Congress would still have authority to lay and collect a tax calculated from incomes which was laid during the civil war and upheld in Springer vs. United States. In addition, Congress would still have authority to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and gains as was laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909, which was upheld in Flint vs. Stone Tracy.


Bottom line is, the Huckabee/Herman Cain “fairtax“ does not propose to end taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and incomes. It proposes to have Congress lay two new taxes: a 23 percent tax upon the sale of newly manufactured property, and, a 23 percent tax upon the sale of property which working people have in their labor, in addition to excise taxes which may be calculated from profits, gains, salaries and other incomes. And this does not even take into account the massive redistribution of wealth proposed under its “family consumption allowance” ____ an entitlement which would send a monthly bonus check to those already on the public dole and not gainfully employed, which would be taxed away from our productive members of society ___ a spread the wealth idea!


Finally, It should also be noted that Leo E. Linbeck Jr., founder of fairtax.org is also a past chairman and director of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, and former director of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas-Houston Branch, which is part of that secretive theft ring called the federal reserve system which takes billions, upon billions of American Taxpayer dollars and launders them by sending them abroad to foreign banking pals.


Now, I’m not big on conspiracies, but those directly connected to the federal reserve system, a private banking cartel which un-constitutionally regulates the value of our money via re-discount rates, ought to be very carefully examined, and what their members, former and present, propose for tax reform ought to be even more carefully examined so as to avoid a total enslavement of America’s businesses, industries and working class people which seems to be the case under the massive expansion of what Congress may tax as proposed under H.R. 25, and its companion legislation H.J.RES 16.


And what is my solution for tax reform? A return to our Constitution’s ORIGINAL TAX PLAN (http://townshipnews.org/?p=1360) as our founding fathers intended it to operate and could be put back into practice by adding the following 32 words to our Constitution:

The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money.


Regards,

JWK


Our tyrant in the White House forces the productive to pay taxes so he can spread their wealth, but he does not force his beloved 40 % who pay no income taxes to work for the taxes they get.

[fj1200]

Oh geez.

[johnwk]

Please tell me if you find any of the following questions regarding the “fairtax” answered incorrectly. The answers are based upon the ACTUAL TEXT OF H.R.25 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.25:..) and, H.J.RES 16 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.J.RES.16:..)


Frequently asked questions regarding the “fairtax” answered.


Does the “fairtax” propose to lay a 23 percent tax upon the sale of all new manufactured property? YES


Does the “fairtax” require Mary and Joe Sixpack [as I described them at the top of the thread] to give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the action if they sell the property they have in their labor on weekends by cleaning and painting homes, making handyman repairs, baby sitting, cutting their neighbors lawns, etc.? YES


Will Mary and Joe have to file fairtax returns 12 times a year? YES


Will Mary and Joe still be subject to audits? YES


Will Mary and Joe have to keep any record Congress may dream up? YES


In addition to the 23 percent cut Mary and Joe must giver to government on the sale of their labor, will they also have to pay an additional 23 percent tax upon products they purchase. YES


If H.J RES. 16, the “fairtax” companion legislation to repeal the 16th amendment were adopted by the States, would Congress maintain the authority to lay and collect taxes calculated from incomes? YES! As were laid during the Civil War and upheld in Springer vs. United States.


Under the fairtax, would Congress maintain power to lay and collect taxes calculated from corporate and business profits and gains? YES As were imposed under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909 and upheld in Flint vs. Stone Tracy.

Will the IRS be closed down under the “fairtax”. YES, but in its place two new tax collecting agencies will be created, the Excise Tax Bureau and the Sales tax Bureau, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms will also be collecting taxes!

Does the “fairtax” propose to send a monthly check to people who are not gainfully employed and on the public dole? YES


Why is the “fairtax” called a “progressive” tax by fairtax.org? Because it proposes to redistribute wealth.


Is the “fairtax” a proposal for a massive expansion of what Congress may tax? YES


Regards,

JWK



America we have a problem! We have a group of DOMESTIC ENEMIES (http://republicmainstreet.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/members-of-the-congressional-progressive-caucus-is-your-representative-a-member/) who have managed to seize political power and whose mission is in fact to bring “change” to America ___ the dismantling of our military defensive power; the allowance of our borders to be overrun by foreign invaders, the diluting of our election process by allowing ineligible persons to vote; the destruction of our manufacturing capabilities; the transferring of America’s technology to hostile foreign nations; the strangulation of our agricultural industry and ability to produce food under the guise of environmental necessity; the destruction of our nation’s health care delivery system, the interference with our ability to develop our natural resources, namely oil, to fuel our economy; the looting of both our federal treasury and a mandatory retirement pension fund; the brainwashing of our nation’s children in government operated schools; the trashing of our nation’s traditions and moral values; the creation of an iron fisted control unauthorized by our written Constitution over America’s businesses and industries; the devaluation of our nation’s currency, and, the future enslavement of our children and grand children via unbridled debt and inflation, not to mention an iron fisted government which intends to rule their very lives!

[fj1200]

Please tell me if you find any of the following questions regarding the “fairtax” answered incorrectly.

Yes, either incorrectly or ignorantly.

[DragonStryk72]

Oh, just go back to the other long ass thread where we debated this with you, and just reread it. Save us all the trouble.

[johnwk]

Oh, just go back to the other long ass thread where we debated this with you, and just reread it. Save us all the trouble.

Gee, I thought by now you would have realized if the Huckabee/Cain fairtax were adopted, and its companion legislation to repeal the 16th Amendment were ratified by the States, Congress would still maintain the authority to lay and collect “excise” taxes calculated from profits, gains, and incomes, and, Mary and Joe Sixpack would also be subject to two new taxes imposed under the fairtax ___ they would have to send a 23 percent cut to the federal government when selling the property they have in their labor, and, they would also have to pay a new 23 percent tax upon their purchases (food, clothing, bait and tackle equipment, medical supplies, etc.), In other words, the “fairtax” is a trap to enlarge the taxing arm of Congress.


JWK


America we have a problem! We have a group of DOMESTIC ENEMIES (http://republicmainstreet.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/members-of-the-congressional-progressive-caucus-is-your-representative-a-member/) who have managed to seize political power and whose mission is in fact to bring “change” to America ___ the dismantling of our military defensive power; the allowance of our borders to be overrun by foreign invaders, the diluting of our election process by allowing ineligible persons to vote; the destruction of our manufacturing capabilities; the transferring of America’s technology to hostile foreign nations; the strangulation of our agricultural industry and ability to produce food under the guise of environmental necessity; the destruction of our nation’s health care delivery system, the interference with our ability to develop our natural resources, namely oil, to fuel our economy; the looting of both our federal treasury and a mandatory retirement pension fund; the brainwashing of our nation’s children in government operated schools; the trashing of our nation’s traditions and moral values; the creation of an iron fisted control unauthorized by our written Constitution over America’s businesses and industries; the devaluation of our nation’s currency, and, the future enslavement of our children and grand children via unbridled debt and inflation, not to mention an iron fisted government which intends to rule their very lives!

[fj1200]

Gee, I thought by now you would have realized if the Huckabee/Cain fairtax were adopted, and its companion legislation to repeal the 16th Amendment were ratified by the States, Congress would still maintain the authority to lay and collect “excise” taxes calculated from profits, gains, and incomes, and, Mary and Joe Sixpack would also be subject to two new taxes imposed under the fairtax ___ they would have to send a 23 percent cut to the federal government when selling the property they have in their labor, and, they would also have to pay a new 23 percent tax upon their purchases (food, clothing, bait and tackle equipment, medical supplies, etc.), In other words, the “fairtax” is a trap to enlarge the taxing arm of Congress.

Your "logic" didn't fly in the other thread either.

[DragonStryk72]

Gee, I thought by now you would have realized if the Huckabee/Cain fairtax were adopted, and its companion legislation to repeal the 16th Amendment were ratified by the States, Congress would still maintain the authority to lay and collect “excise” taxes calculated from profits, gains, and incomes, and, Mary and Joe Sixpack would also be subject to two new taxes imposed under the fairtax ___ they would have to send a 23 percent cut to the federal government when selling the property they have in their labor, and, they would also have to pay a new 23 percent tax upon their purchases (food, clothing, bait and tackle equipment, medical supplies, etc.), In other words, the “fairtax” is a trap to enlarge the taxing arm of Congress.


JWK


America we have a problem! We have a group of DOMESTIC ENEMIES (http://republicmainstreet.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/members-of-the-congressional-progressive-caucus-is-your-representative-a-member/) who have managed to seize political power and whose mission is in fact to bring “change” to America ___ the dismantling of our military defensive power; the allowance of our borders to be overrun by foreign invaders, the diluting of our election process by allowing ineligible persons to vote; the destruction of our manufacturing capabilities; the transferring of America’s technology to hostile foreign nations; the strangulation of our agricultural industry and ability to produce food under the guise of environmental necessity; the destruction of our nation’s health care delivery system, the interference with our ability to develop our natural resources, namely oil, to fuel our economy; the looting of both our federal treasury and a mandatory retirement pension fund; the brainwashing of our nation’s children in government operated schools; the trashing of our nation’s traditions and moral values; the creation of an iron fisted control unauthorized by our written Constitution over America’s businesses and industries; the devaluation of our nation’s currency, and, the future enslavement of our children and grand children via unbridled debt and inflation, not to mention an iron fisted government which intends to rule their very lives!

See my above statement. Stop wasting everyone's time.

[johnwk]

See my above statement. Stop wasting everyone's time.

Is the your best rebuttal?


JWK

[DragonStryk72]

Is the your best rebuttal?


JWK

Nope. See, I save rebuttal for where it matters. With you it doesn't, because you'll simply keep rehashing this same tired argument time and again, just like this thread now is a rehash of the old one on this same subject. You won't move, inch or budge at all, and just come back with the same argument again, regardless of evidence. So, no, this is not my best rebuttal, it's just the only you're worth

[johnwk]

Nope. See, I save rebuttal for where it matters. With you it doesn't, because you'll simply keep rehashing this same tired argument time and again, just like this thread now is a rehash of the old one on this same subject. You won't move, inch or budge at all, and just come back with the same argument again, regardless of evidence. So, no, this is not my best rebuttal, it's just the only you're worth




What I post are documented facts which seem to annoy you and thus, your obfuscations and deflections.


And you are correct, I “won’t move, inch or budge at all” when facts are involved. I do not attempt to change the truth to what it is not. But you are free to continue in your deflection away from the topic since that approach best serves you ultimate interests.


JWK




If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

.

[fj1200]

OK, just for fun, this would be the most egregious of your errors:


... Mary and Joe Sixpack would also be subject to two new taxes imposed under the fairtax ___ they would have to send a 23 percent cut to the federal government when selling the property they have in their labor, and, they would also have to pay a new 23 percent tax upon their purchases...

The FairTax is, at heart, a consumption tax. Agreed? With your agreement :laugh: there you'll have to admit that they are not "consuming" their own labor and at that point you'll recognize :laugh: :laugh: that the consumer of the Sixpack's product are those who are actually paying the tax. That they happen to be the entity that collects the tax and remits it to the government is NOT the same as them paying the tax. They are not sending a "cut" to the government as the tax is levied on top of their service and fully disclosed to the consumer unlike the embedded taxation we currently have.

Now let's see if you can answer WITHOUT using the phrase, "property they have in their labor." ;)

[fj1200]

What I post are documented facts...

Your "facts" are questionable, your interpretation is laughable.

[Mr. P]

Oh geez.
Yeah, my thought as well.:laugh:..This time I don't have time. I'm sure you can handle it.

[johnwk]

... Mary and Joe Sixpack would also be subject to two new taxes imposed under the fairtax ___ they would have to send a 23 percent cut to the federal government when selling the property they have in their labor, and, they would also have to pay a new 23 percent tax upon their purchases…



OK, just for fun, this would be the most egregious of your errors:



The FairTax is, at heart, a consumption tax. Agreed? With your agreement :laugh: there you'll have to admit that they are not "consuming" their own labor and at that point you'll recognize :laugh: :laugh: that the consumer of the Sixpack's product are those who are actually paying the tax. That they happen to be the entity that collects the tax and remits it to the government is NOT the same as them paying the tax. They are not sending a "cut" to the government as the tax is levied on top of their service and fully disclosed to the consumer unlike the embedded taxation we currently have.

Now let's see if you can answer WITHOUT using the phrase, "property they have in their labor." ;)

No. I use the word "property" because it is correct. Mary and Joe are selling the property they have in their labor and the S.C. agrees with me:

It has been well said that

"the property which every man has in his own labor, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. The patrimony of the poor man lies in the strength and dexterity of his own hands, and to hinder his employing this strength and dexterity in what manner he thinks proper, without injury to his neighbor, is a plain violation of this most sacred property. It is a manifest encroachment upon the just liberty both of the workman and of those who might be disposed to employ him. As it hinders the one from working at what he thinks proper, so it hinders the others from employing whom they think proper." __ See Butchers' Union Co. v. Crescent City Co., 111 U.S. 746 (1884) quoting Smith, Wealth of Nations, Bk. I, c. 10.


You simply do not agree with the fact that when Mary and Joe Sixpack, as I have previously described them, are selling the property they have in their labor, and, the federal government under the alleged fair tax wants a 23 percent cut of the selling price of their labor. But regardless of your interpretations and obfuscations, the fact remains the 23 percent tax calculated from the sale of Mary and Joe’s labor is an entirely different tax from that which is laid upon the sale of newly manufactured property. And regardless of your assertion about the tax involved with Mary and Joe and who pays it, the other fact remains that Mary and Joe will have to file fairtax returns 12 times a year under the penalty of perjury and send the tax to the federal government. So either way you are very much misguided when it comes to the Huckabee/Cain fairtax trap.



JWK

[DragonStryk72]

What I post are documented facts which seem to annoy you and thus, your obfuscations and deflections.


And you are correct, I “won’t move, inch or budge at all” when facts are involved. I do not attempt to change the truth to what it is not. But you are free to continue in your deflection away from the topic since that approach best serves you ultimate interests.


JWK




If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

.

You're just not worth my time and energy. Guys, don't feed the troll. if we just let this go, it won't hurt anything.

[fj1200]

No. I use the word "property" because it is correct. Mary and Joe are selling the property they have in their labor and the S.C. agrees with me:

I didn't say it was incorrect, I joked that you couldn't rebut without using the phrase; You didn't get it. Whether they are selling that "property" is moot, the consumer is paying the tax not the Sixpack's.


You simply do not agree with the fact that when Mary and Joe Sixpack, as I have previously described them, are selling the property they have in their labor, and, the federal government under the alleged fair tax wants a 23 percent cut of the selling price of their labor.

Doesn't matter, goods and services are subject. Why should goods be subject but not services? There is labor included in the property of newly manufactured goods as well. You want to have it both ways in your argument and once you lose that false premise you lose the argument.


But regardless of your interpretations and obfuscations, the fact remains the 23 percent tax calculated from the sale of Mary and Joe’s labor is an entirely different tax from that which is laid upon the sale of newly manufactured property.

Not really. I'm still not sure of the love you have for the current code over the FairTax.


And regardless of your assertion about the tax involved with Mary and Joe and who pays it, the other fact remains that Mary and Joe will have to file fairtax returns 12 times a year under the penalty of perjury and send the tax to the federal government.

They already have to file quarterlies now and they might have to make more frequent payments based on the size of their firm but I don't know all the rules, nevertheless you conveniently ignore the massive streamlining of the tax code on the other side and get wrapped up in your single-minded viewpoint.


So either way you are very much misguided when it comes to the Huckabee/Cain fairtax trap.

Seems like I have it pretty much down pat, you on the other hand...

BTW, why didn't you answer my question?

[fj1200]

Guys, don't feed the troll. if we just let this go, it won't hurt anything.

But I have a pool going on how many times he'll say "property" and "labor" in the same sentence. Did I not send you the PM? :laugh:

[DragonStryk72]

But I have a pool going on how many times he'll say "property" and "labor" in the same sentence. Did I not send you the PM? :laugh:

Damn it, you guys are supposed to keep me apprised of this stuff! How the hell am I supposed to bet the pool if I don't know it's happening in the first place?

[logroller]

I really want to hear about this labor on property. Did they grow the trees, mill the lumber, develop a foundry for the nails? How much of this toiling was actually theirs? I mean I hate (J/K it's fun) to point out the strawman in the field, but it would seem idealism has run its course. Quite frankly if someone was to labor away constructing this home as premised I highly doubt it was to place it "for sale by owner-builder". I've met exactly one person in 5years in the construction business who actually labored on his property. I hope you don't consider painting and changing out some fixtures as "labor" on property-- I've done that (and more) in every home I ever lived in-- its called pride in ownership.

[fj1200]

Damn it, you guys are supposed to keep me apprised of this stuff! How the hell am I supposed to bet the pool if I don't know it's happening in the first place?

Completely my fault. Have a Coke on me, I'll get you back later with my cut of the pool. ;)

[johnwk]

BTW, here is a list of Senators who are promoting the Fair Tax Act of 2011-2012 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:S.13:..), more appropriately called the Fair Tax Trap of 2012:


Sen Chambliss, Saxby [GA] who introduced the legislation and its five co-sponsors

Sen Burr, Richard [NC] - 1/25/2011
Sen Coburn, Tom [OK] - 1/25/2011
Sen DeMint, Jim [SC] - 1/25/2011
Sen Isakson, Johnny [GA] - 1/25/2011
Sen Moran, Jerry [KS] - 1/25/2011


And here is a list of House members supporting the fairtax trap


Rep Adams, Sandy [FL-24] - 1/5/2011
Rep Akin, W. Todd [MO-2] - 1/5/2011
Rep Alexander, Rodney [LA-5] - 1/11/2011
Rep Bartlett, Roscoe G. [MD-6] - 1/5/2011
Rep Bilbray, Brian P. [CA-50] - 1/5/2011
Rep Bilirakis, Gus M. [FL-9] - 1/5/2011
Rep Bishop, Rob - 1/5/2011
Rep Boren, Dan [OK-2] - 1/5/2011
Rep Brooks, Mo [AL-5] - 1/5/2011
Rep Burton, Dan - 1/5/2011
Rep Carter, John R. [TX-31] - 1/5/2011
Rep Conaway, K. Michael [TX-11] - 1/5/2011
Rep Crenshaw, Ander [FL-4] - 1/5/2011
Rep Culberson, John Abney [TX-7] - 1/5/2011
Rep Duncan, Jeff [SC-3] - 1/5/2011
Rep Duncan, John J., Jr. [TN-2] - 1/5/2011
Rep Farenthold, Blake [TX-27] - 1/5/2011
Rep Flake, Jeff [AZ-6] - 1/5/2011
Rep Fleming, John [LA-4] - 1/11/2011
Rep Foxx, Virginia [NC-5] - 1/5/2011
Rep Gingrey, Phil [GA-11] - 1/5/2011
Rep Granger, Kay [TX-12] - 1/6/2011
Rep Graves, Tom [GA-9] - 1/5/2011
Rep Hall, Ralph M. [TX-4] - 1/24/2011
Rep Huelskamp, Tim [KS-1] - 1/24/2011
Rep Issa, Darrell E. [CA-49] - 1/5/2011
Rep King, Steve [IA-5] - 1/5/2011
Rep Kingston, Jack [GA-1] - 1/5/2011
Rep Kline, John [MN-2] - 1/24/2011
Rep Lankford, James [OK-5] - 1/5/2011
Rep Long, Billy [MO-7] - 1/5/2011
Rep McCaul, Michael T. [TX-10] - 1/5/2011
Rep Mica, John L. [FL-7] - 1/5/2011
Rep Miller, Gary G. [CA-42] - 1/5/2011
Rep Miller, Jeff [FL-1] - 1/5/2011
Rep Myrick, Sue Wilkins [NC-9] - 1/5/2011
Rep Neugebauer, Randy [TX-19] - 1/5/2011
Rep Nugent, Richard [FL-5] - 1/5/2011
Rep Olson, Pete [TX-22] - 1/5/2011
Rep Pence, Mike [IN-6] - 1/5/2011
Rep Poe, Ted [TX-2] - 1/5/2011
Rep Pompeo, Mike [KS-4] - 1/5/2011
Rep Posey, Bill [FL-15] - 1/11/2011
Rep Price, Tom [GA-6] - 1/5/2011
Rep Ross, Dennis [FL-12] - 1/5/2011
Rep Scott, Tim [SC-1] - 1/5/2011
Rep Stearns, Cliff [FL-6] - 1/5/2011
Rep Stutzman, Marlin A. [IN-3] - 1/5/2011
Rep Sullivan, John [OK-1] - 1/5/2011
Rep Thornberry, Mac [TX-13] - 1/5/2011
Rep Walberg, Tim [MI-7] - 1/5/2011
Rep Westmoreland, Lynn A. [GA-3] - 1/5/2011
Rep Wittman, Robert J. [VA-1] - 1/5/2011
Rep Young, Don [AK] - 1/5/2011


Why on earth the above members of Congress support the fairtax trap is beyond human comprehension. I wonder if they even took the time to read and study the text of the proposed legislation.


JWK

[I]If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [[u]the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

[fj1200]

BTW, here is a list of Senators...

And here is a list of House members...

And they all deserve our support, thank you for providing the beginnings of a political contribution list. Can you give us the addresses of their reelection campaign HQs?


Why on earth the above members of Congress support the fairtax trap is beyond human comprehension. I wonder if they even took the time to read and study the text of the proposed legislation.

They were clearly beyond the reach of your misinformation.

[fj1200]

J, I would like to explore this a bit; Why do you wish the perpetuation of the current tax code, tax on income, over the FairTax, tax on consumption, when the Founding Fathers proposed what was essentially a consumption tax?

[logroller]

J, I would like to explore this a bit; Why do you wish the perpetuation of the current tax code, tax on income, over the FairTax, tax on consumption, when the Founding Fathers proposed what was essentially a consumption tax?

We still run govt under the Constitution? Could a fooled me.:coffee:

[fj1200]

We still run govt under the Constitution? Could a fooled me.:coffee:

Of course not, where do you get such a silly idea? :slap:

[logroller]

Of course not, where do you get such a silly idea? :slap:

Sorry, I've got that streak of idealism that comes out now and then. Thanks for the check.:thumb:

[johnwk]

J, I would like to explore this a bit; Why do you wish the perpetuation of the current tax code, tax on income, over the FairTax ……… ?


Why would you write such a thing when I was very clear in what I support which I stated in the FIRST POST IN THE THREAD (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?31105-Beware-of-the-Huckabee-Herman-Cain-“fairtax“!&p=467786#post467786) I wrote:




And what is my solution for tax reform? A return to our Constitution’s ORIGINAL TAX PLAN (http://townshipnews.org/?p=1360) as our founding fathers intended it to operate and could be put back into practice by adding the following 32 words to our Constitution:

The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money.




And what do the members of Congress who support the “fairtax” want? See H.J.RES 16 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.J.RES.16:..) which would repeal the 16th Amendment, but does not contain the above wording forbidding Congress to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money And without these words in the repeal of the 16th Amendment Congress maintains power to lay and collect “Excise” taxes calculated from incomes as laid during the Civil War and upheld in Springer vs. United States, or, lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and gains as laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909, upheld in Flint vs. Stone Trace. Keep in mind H.R. 25 proposes to create two new tax collecting agencies, the Excise Tax Bureau to collect any excise taxes Congress dreams up, and, the Sales tax Bureau, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms will also be collecting taxes!


So, contrary to your charge, I am the one who wants to put a stake through the heart of any federal tax calculated from profits, gains, salaries or other incomes, while members of Congress who support the fairtax want to perpetuate the power of Congress to lay and collect such taxes.


JWK

[fj1200]

Why would you write such a thing when I was very clear in what I support which I stated in the FIRST POST IN THE THREAD (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?31105-Beware-of-the-Huckabee-Herman-Cain-“fairtax“!&p=467786#post467786) I wrote:

Because that didn't answer the question that I asked.


And what do the members of Congress who support the “fairtax” want? ... And without these words in the repeal of the 16th Amendment Congress maintains power to ...

So try and work to that end.


So, contrary to your charge, I am the one who wants to put a stake through the heart of any federal tax calculated from profits, gains, salaries or other incomes, while members of Congress who support the fairtax want to perpetuate the power of Congress to lay and collect such taxes.

Some may but the sponsors are primarily limited government Republicans, feel free to go through the list however.

It would certainly be nice to "put a stake" but it's not going to happen especially with the methods you're employing. Which leaves the options of wishing for the impossible and being stuck with what we have OR working for the possible and the FAR better situation we would be in. You could at least be honest about the FairTax rather than spinning each of your "facts" away from the truth.

[johnwk]

You could at least be honest about the FairTax rather than spinning each of your "facts" away from the truth.

You have the nerve to talk about honesty? So now, in addition to falsely asserting that I “wish the perpetuation of the current tax code” now you are going to falsely assert I’m not being “honest about the FairTax”, but as is usually the case with you, you fail to substantiate you assertions.

Just for the record, please tell me if you find any of the following questions regarding the “fairtax” not answered honestly. The answers are based upon the ACTUAL TEXT OF H.R.25 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.25:..) and, H.J.RES 16 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.J.RES.16:..)


Frequently asked questions regarding the “fairtax” answered.


Does the “fairtax” propose to lay a 23 percent tax upon the sale of new manufactured property? YES


Does the “fairtax” require Mary and Joe Sixpack [as I described them at the top of the thread] to give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the action if they sell the property they have in their labor on weekends by cleaning and painting homes, making handyman repairs, baby sitting, cutting their neighbors lawns, etc.? YES


Will Mary and Joe have to file fairtax returns 12 times a year? YES


Will Mary and Joe have to register with government to sell the property they have in their labor? YES


Will Mary and Joe still be subject to audits? YES


Will Mary and Joe have to keep any records and reports Congress may dream up? YES


In addition to the 23 percent cut Mary and Joe must giver to government on the selling price of their labor, will they also have to pay an additional 23 percent tax upon products they purchase. YES


If H.J RES. 16, the “fairtax” companion legislation to repeal the 16th amendment were adopted by the States, would Congress maintain the authority to lay and collect taxes calculated from incomes? YES! For example Congress will have power to lay and collect the tax calculated from income as was laid during the Civil War and upheld in Springer vs. United States.


Under the fairtax, would Congress maintain power to lay and collect taxes calculated from corporate and business profits and gains? YES For example, Congress would maintain the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and gains as were laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909 and upheld in Flint vs. Stone Tracy.

Will the IRS be closed down under the “fairtax”. YES, but in its place two new tax collecting agencies will be created, the Excise Tax Bureau and the Sales tax Bureau, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms will also be collecting taxes!

Does the “fairtax” propose to send a monthly check to people who are not gainfully employed and on the public dole? YES


Why is the “fairtax” called a “progressive” tax by fairtax.org? Probably because it proposes to redistribute wealth from those who pay taxes to those who are not gainfully employed and on the public dole.


Is the “fairtax” a proposal for a massive expansion of what Congress may tax? YES. See above for details.


JWK



If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

[fj1200]

You have the nerve to talk about honesty? So now, in addition to falsely asserting that I “wish the perpetuation of the current tax code” now you are going to falsely assert I’m not being “honest about the FairTax”, but as is usually the case with you, you fail to substantiate you assertions.

Nothing false about my assertions about you or otherwise. Mine are fully substantiated, unlike yours.


Just for the record, please tell me if you find any of the following questions regarding the “fairtax” not answered honestly. The answers are based upon the ACTUAL TEXT OF H.R.25 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.25:..) and, H.J.RES 16 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.J.RES.16:..)


Frequently asked questions regarding the “fairtax” answered.


Does the “fairtax” propose to lay a 23 percent tax upon the sale of new manufactured property? YES

Yes, it ELIMINATES all other Fed taxes.


Does the “fairtax” require Mary and Joe Sixpack [as I described them at the top of the thread] to give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the action if they sell the property they have in their labor on weekends by cleaning and painting homes, making handyman repairs, baby sitting, cutting their neighbors lawns, etc.? YES

No, they provide a service and the Fairtax is a tax on the consumption of goods and services. It is paid by the consumer NOT the producer.


Will Mary and Joe have to file fairtax returns 12 times a year? YES

Yes, how many times do they file now? At least quarterly, sometimes more often depending on size iirc.


Will Mary and Joe have to register with government to sell the property they have in their labor? YES

Yes, they do so NOW. Are you unaware of W-2s?


Will Mary and Joe still be subject to audits? YES

Yes, they are subject now. Are you unaware of the IRS?


Will Mary and Joe have to keep any records and reports Congress may dream up? YES

Yes, they are subject now.


In addition to the 23 percent cut Mary and Joe must giver to government on the selling price of their labor, will they also have to pay an additional 23 percent tax upon products they purchase. YES

No, they don't pay taxes on their services provided and No, the "additional" tax is in lieu of all other Fed taxes. Asked and answered previously.


If H.J RES. 16, the “fairtax” companion legislation to repeal the 16th amendment were adopted by the States, would Congress maintain the authority to lay and collect taxes calculated from incomes? YES! For example Congress will have power to lay and collect the tax calculated from income as was laid during the Civil War and upheld in Springer vs. United States.

Under the fairtax, would Congress maintain power to lay and collect taxes calculated from corporate and business profits and gains? YES For example, Congress would maintain the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and gains as were laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909 and upheld in Flint vs. Stone Tracy.

Possibly, let's get that changed. Work for the possible, not the impossible.


Will the IRS be closed down under the “fairtax”. YES, but in its place two new tax collecting agencies will be created, the Excise Tax Bureau and the Sales tax Bureau, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms will also be collecting taxes!

I suppose, taxes need to be collected. How many taxing authorities under your plan?


Does the “fairtax” propose to send a monthly check to people who are not gainfully employed and on the public dole? YES

Yes, to ensure that NO ONE is subject to taxation at the poverty level. The public dole is a different subject, first things first.


Why is the “fairtax” called a “progressive” tax by fairtax.org? Probably because it proposes to redistribute wealth from those who pay taxes to those who are not gainfully employed and on the public dole.

No, it's progressive because they believe that the rich will automatically consume more than the poor thereby ensuring progressivity. Redistribution is NOT in the Republicans game plan.


Is the “fairtax” a proposal for a massive expansion of what Congress may tax? YES. See above for details.


No. And that is the perfect example of you spinning your "facts" away from the reality of the FairTax. You claim/imply that is an expansion of the tax base when in reality it is a shifting of taxation away from income and towards consumption. You ignore the embedding of the current tax code towards the transparency of the FairTax. You ignore the intrusiveness of the current code and the simplicity of the FairTax.

So try and acknowledge the benefits of what the FairTax does with some honesty. And like I said wishing for the impossible leaves us with the current system at the expense of what is possible, that is why I state that you "are working for the perpetuation of the current tax code" and I stand by it.

[Missileman]

Does the “fairtax” require Mary and Joe Sixpack [as I described them at the top of the thread] to give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the action if they sell the property they have in their labor on weekends by cleaning and painting homes, making handyman repairs, baby sitting, cutting their neighbors lawns, etc.? YES


This statement alone is proof you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about. Mary and Joe won't be paying the government 23% of their profit or as you call it, "give a cut of the action". The people who use Mary's and Joe's services will pay an additional 23% in the form of a tax.

Get an adult to take you to a store and explain sales tax to you.

[johnwk]

Originally Posted by johnwk
Does the “fairtax” require Mary and Joe Sixpack [as I described them at the top of the thread] to give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the action if they sell the property they have in their labor on weekends by cleaning and painting homes, making handyman repairs, baby sitting, cutting their neighbors lawns, etc.? YES



This statement alone is proof you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about. Mary and Joe won't be paying the government 23% of their profit or as you call it, "give a cut of the action". The people who use Mary's and Joe's services will pay an additional 23% in the form of a tax.

Get an adult to take you to a store and explain sales tax to you.

Oh, but I didn’t say Mary and Joe would be paying the government 23% of the “profit“. The irrefutable fact is, Mary and Joe, when selling the property they have in their labor, will have to give the federal government 23 percent of the selling price of their labor. In addition, Mary and Joe Sixpack, ordinary working people who have full time jobs and dare to sell the property they have in their labor on weekends cleaning homes, baby sitting, mowing lawns, painting homes and other handyman chores, must first register with government to sell the property they have in their labor, give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the selling price of their labor, file fair tax returns 12 freaken times a year under the penalty of perjury, and, after all this crap they will have to pay an additional 23 percent tax on articles they purchase.

Why do you support expanding the taxing arm of Congress with an additional tax, the alleged "fairtax", which will only be used to feed and enlarge the pig in Washington?


JWK


If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

[fj1200]

Oh, but I didn’t say Mary and Joe would be paying the government 23% of the “profit“. The irrefutable fact is, Mary and Joe, when selling the property they have in their labor, will have to give the federal government 23 percent of the selling price of their labor. In addition, Mary and Joe Sixpack, ordinary working people who have full time jobs and dare to sell the property they have in their labor on weekends cleaning homes, baby sitting, mowing lawns, painting homes and other handyman chores, must first register with government to sell the property they have in their labor, give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the selling price of their labor, file fair tax returns 12 freaken times a year under the penalty of perjury, and, after all this crap they will have to pay an additional 23 percent tax on articles they purchase.

More spinning of "facts" and outright falsehoods I see. Why didn't you take the opportunity to respond to my post? Let's have some good back and forth rather than your repetition of disputed talking points.


Why do you support expanding the taxing arm of Congress with an additional tax, the alleged "fairtax", which will only be used to feed and enlarge the pig in Washington?

The fact that you won't admit the obvious crushes your already thin credibility on the subject.

[johnwk]

Why didn't you take the opportunity to respond to my post?

Because I’m not interested in you silly commentary and editorializing of the facts I posted in POST NO.30 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?31105-Beware-of-the-Huckabee-Herman-Cain-“fairtax“!&p=468305#post468305). I’m only interested in what I have posted are the facts.

JWK


If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

[logroller]

Because I’m not interested in you silly commentary and editorializing of the facts I posted in POST NO.30 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?31105-Beware-of-the-Huckabee-Herman-Cain-“fairtax“!&p=468305#post468305). I’m only interested in what I have posted are the facts.
.

I still don't understand the property and labor tie. It seems to me if I buy a house, fix it up, maintain it, rebuild it from the ground-up or do nothing at all, just resell -- the buyer pays a tax of 23% of the value, but the seller keeps any net proceed or loss. I can see how this could be detrimental to the number of transactions, but I don't see how it is a disincentive to labor. If anything it sounds like a bear market, where the seller has to work harder to appeal to the buyer.

[Missileman]

Oh, but I didn’t say Mary and Joe would be paying the government 23% of the “profit“. The irrefutable fact is, Mary and Joe, when selling the property they have in their labor, will have to give the federal government 23 percent of the selling price of their labor.

Are you really under the delusion that if you repeat something often enough it becomes true?

Let's look at an example: Joe sells some of his plumbing skills to a neighbor. Joe does $100 worth of plumbing. He charges his neighbor $123. Joe puts $100 in his pocket and sends the $23 to the government. The tax didn't cost Joe anything.

I can't believe I'm having to explain this to you.

[DragonStryk72]

More spinning of "facts" and outright falsehoods I see. Why didn't you take the opportunity to respond to my post? Let's have some good back and forth rather than your repetition of disputed talking points.



The fact that you won't admit the obvious crushes your already thin credibility on the subject.

Hm, I believe I mentioned him doing this earlier in the thread... Yeah, this is where it all breaks down for him.

[DragonStryk72]

Because I’m not interested in you silly commentary and editorializing of the facts I posted in POST NO.30 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?31105-Beware-of-the-Huckabee-Herman-Cain-“fairtax“!&p=468305#post468305). I’m only interested in what I have posted are the facts.

JWK


Oh thank God, you finally admit it. You don't care what evidence is brought forward, you're already set. You are not here to debate or discussion, just to bludgeon people with your way in the least productive manner possible. See? We just needed the admission

[fj1200]

Because I’m not interested in you silly commentary and editorializing of the facts I posted in POST NO.30 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?31105-Beware-of-the-Huckabee-Herman-Cain-“fairtax“!&p=468305#post468305). I’m only interested in what I have posted are the facts.

I already showed you how those were wrong. Now if you want to respond to that, then that might be progress.

[fj1200]

I still don't understand the property and labor tie. It seems to me if I buy a house, fix it up, maintain it, rebuild it from the ground-up or do nothing at all, just resell -- the buyer pays a tax of 23% of the value, but the seller keeps any net proceed or loss. I can see how this could be detrimental to the number of transactions, but I don't see how it is a disincentive to labor. If anything it sounds like a bear market, where the seller has to work harder to appeal to the buyer.

Only new goods are subject to the FairTax, resells are not so your house example doesn't hold up completely. You would likely pay the FT when you purchase home improvement items and the sale would be a non-tax event.


Are you really under the delusion that if you repeat something often enough it becomes true?

Let's look at an example: Joe sells some of his plumbing skills to a neighbor. Joe does $100 worth of plumbing. He charges his neighbor $123. Joe puts $100 in his pocket and sends the $23 to the government. The tax didn't cost Joe anything.

I can't believe I'm having to explain this to you.

Neither can we.


Hm, I believe I mentioned him doing this earlier in the thread... Yeah, this is where it all breaks down for him.

It breaks down for him at many points along the way it would seem.

[johnwk]

Oh, but I didn’t say Mary and Joe would be paying the government 23% of the “profit“. The irrefutable fact is, Mary and Joe, when selling the property they have in their labor, will have to give the federal government 23 percent of the selling price of their labor.


Let's look at an example: Joe sells some of his plumbing skills to a neighbor. Joe does $100 worth of plumbing. He charges his neighbor $123. Joe puts $100 in his pocket and sends the $23 to the government.


Exactly! The federal government gets a 23 percent cut of the selling price of the property which Joe has in his labor and Joe must send in the federal government’s cut 12 times a year when filing fairtax returns.


I'm glad you finally got it.

JWK



If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

[Missileman]

Exactly! The federal government gets a 23 percent cut of the selling price of the property which Joe has in his labor and Joe must send in the federal government’s cut 12 times a year when filing fairtax returns.


I'm glad you finally got it.

JWK



It's a real shame that you still don't. The government isn't taking anything away from Joe. Your use of the term "cut" is totally disingenuous.

[johnwk]

It's a real shame that you still don't. The government isn't taking anything away from Joe. Your use of the term "cut" is totally disingenuous.



I’m rather amazed you would make that claim since the truth cannot be changed to what it is not. The irrefutable facts are:

Mary and Joe Sixpack when selling the property they have in their labor [cleaning and painting homes on weekends, baby sitting, mowing lawns in their neighbor, and doing other handyman type chores to earn extra money to pay the bills], will have to collect and send to the federal government a 23 percent “fairtax” on the selling price of their labor, and file fairtax returns 12 freaken times a year under the penalty of perjury.

BTW, I didn’t know that you were a fan of a big blotted federal government to such a degree that you would favor two new federal taxes to feed the pig in Washington ___ a new 23 percent tax upon the sale of newly manufactured property, and, a new 23 percent tax upon the sale of property which working people have in their labor ___ while keeping alive Congress’ power to lay and collect taxes calculated from income, as was laid during the civil war and upheld in Springer vs. United States, and, also allowing Congress to maintain the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and gains as was laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909 which was upheld in Flint vs. Stone Tracy.

I guess being a fan of a big bloated federal government would explain why you also favor redistributing taxes from the federal treasury to those on the public dole and not gainfully employed under the “fairtax” family consumption entitlement. Why do you want to create a new entitlement? Do you have that burning desire to “spread the wealth” like Obama does?

Just for the record Missileman, there was a time in our country when even the unemployed were expected and required to contribute their fair share in meeting the expenses of government. A wonderful example of this principle is exhibited in the public laws of Maryland’s Dorchester County, under which all able bodied residents of the county above twenty and under fifty years of age were “compelled to labor two days at least in every year in repairing the roads of said county, with the privilege, however, of furnishing a substitute or paying to the road supervisors seventy-five cents for each day such person may be summoned to labor, the money thus paid to be expended in repairing the roads.”

And the law went on to indicate that “anyone neglecting or refusing to perform such labor, or to provide a substitute, or to pay seventy-five cents per day for each and every day he may be summoned to work, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon trial and conviction before a Justice of the Peace, shall be fined seventy-five cents for each day`s delinquency and costs, and shall stand committed until the fine and costs are paid.”___ SEE SHORT vs. STATE OF MARYLAND, decided February 27th, 1895, upholding the law and not violating (a) the 13th or 14th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, or (b) the 40th section of Art. 3 of the Constitution of Maryland.


So tell me Missileman, why do you want to “spread the wealth” and create a family consumption entitlement which would send a monthly bonus check to those already on the public dole and not gainfully employed?


JWK

Our tyrant in the White House forces the productive to pay taxes so he can spread their wealth, but he does not force his beloved 40 % who pay no income taxes to work for the taxes they get.

[fj1200]

The irrefutable facts are:

:laugh: I see you still don't have the capacity to respond to my counter to your "facts."

[DragonStryk72]

I’m rather amazed you would make that claim since the truth cannot be changed to what it is not. The irrefutable facts are:

Mary and Joe Sixpack when selling the property they have in their labor [cleaning and painting homes on weekends, baby sitting, mowing lawns in their neighbor, and doing other handyman type chores to earn extra money to pay the bills], will have to collect and send to the federal government a 23 percent “fairtax” on the selling price of their labor, and file fairtax returns 12 freaken times a year under the penalty of perjury.



No, again wrong. For one, nowhere in the whole of the fair tax bill does it state that you have to file every month, it does state there is a return each month, base on the average cost of living expenses so that the poor aren't getting fucked into the ground, but again, no returns, and unless you can think of a way to eat, clothe yourself, provide your own water, and electricity without consuming anything, then it pretty much works.

Next, we have this one: Joe is charging $100 dollars, that is what his "selling price" is. he is not selling it for $123, he is selling it for $100. How much of the $100, and the $100 dollar only is he paying as a tax? That's right, exactly $0.00. Since he collected the $23 that goes to the fair tax, it cannot be counted as his at any point, just as the money in my store's cash register isn't "mine" just because the drawer was assigned to me by my boss. No, it's the company's money, I'm just the one handling it, just as with my boss, since she recounts and deposits the money, doesn't make it hers.

And by your logic, it absolutely is not a 23% tax hike: The first stage of the Fair Tax is to remove all other federal taxes, therefore it would be considered a 100% tax cut. From there, a new taxation system is established at a rate of 23% on retail finished goods. And since we're getting rid of the IRS, which is both bigger and clunkier than both of the two new federal bureaus that would be replacing it, it is still a reduction in government.

Now, let's talk about refunds: How would you generate an overpayment on the fair tax 12 times a year? It's pretty simple, and I'll use our above example. Unlike the current broken system, where the tax varies, the Fair Tax is a constant amount. 23% of $100 is always going to be $23, so where in are you filing a return? Why would you file a return on $0.00, which is all the government would owe you back? It doesn't matter how many times Joe sells his $100 property or service, the math is constant, and thus, no return is owed outside of mathematical error.


`SEC. 207. REFUNDS.

(a) Registered Sellers- If a registered seller files a monthly tax report with an overpayment,

In fact, the fair tax, being a set taxation rate, is better for the individual consumer, as they would be able to budget their expenses almost down to the last penny (With some variances on their utilities). Further, since the consumers are able to retain 100% of their paychecks, unlike the current system, they will both know what they can expect to make week-to-week from the hours/wages they get, and as well, since they don't have the money yanked, they have those extra funds available for things such as emergencies, rent, and what have you.

[johnwk]

Originally Posted by johnwk
I’m rather amazed you would make that claim since the truth cannot be changed to what it is not. The irrefutable facts are:

Mary and Joe Sixpack when selling the property they have in their labor [cleaning and painting homes on weekends, baby sitting, mowing lawns in their neighbor, and doing other handyman type chores to earn extra money to pay the bills], will have to collect and send to the federal government a 23 percent “fairtax” on the selling price of their labor, and file fairtax returns 12 freaken times a year under the penalty of perjury.


No, again wrong. For one, nowhere in the whole of the fair tax bill does it state that you have to file every month, it does state there is a return each month, base on the average cost of living expenses so that the poor aren't getting fucked into the ground, but again, no returns, and unless you can think of a way to eat, clothe yourself, provide your own water, and electricity without consuming anything, then it pretty much works.



See: `SEC. 501. MONTHLY REPORTS AND PAYMENTS. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.25:...)


`SEC. 501. MONTHLY REPORTS AND PAYMENTS.
`(a) Tax Reports and Filing Dates-
`(1) IN GENERAL- On or before the 15th day of each month, each person who is--
`(A) liable to collect and remit the tax imposed by this subtitle by reason of section 103(a), or
`(B) liable to pay tax imposed by this subtitle which is not collected pursuant to section 103(a),
shall submit to the appropriate sales tax administering authority (in a form prescribed by the Secretary) a report relating to the previous calendar month.
`(2) CONTENTS OF REPORT- The report required under paragraph (1) shall set forth--
`(A) the gross payments referred to in section 101,
`(B) the tax collected under chapter 4 in connection with such payments,
`(C) the amount and type of any credit claimed, and
`(D) other information reasonably required by the Secretary or the sales tax administering authority for the administration, collection, and remittance of the tax imposed by this subtitle.

And so, the misery of filing annual tax returns becomes a monthly nightmare under the alleged fair tax for Mary and Joe Sixpack.


JWK

[fj1200]

And so, the misery of filing annual tax returns becomes a monthly nightmare under the alleged fair tax for Mary and Joe Sixpack.

Not really, filing a sales tax return is nowhere near the misery of the current tax code. A simple excel spreadsheet and an escrow account will easily suffice. I imagine the Sixpacks will appreciate the wonderful simplicity of the tax as opposed to the myriad of taxes that may be required depending on their business structure; no SS tax, no Medicare tax, no income tax withholding..., which of course doesn't even mention the compliance savings in NOT having to go to HR Block every year and guess at those requirements. I'm sure that they would also love being able to invest and save without tax considerations and then leaving their estate to their heirs without estate tax considerations.

You should try and ask currently tax-law abiding citizens their opinion on the FT, I'm sure that they will then "thank" you for your work in keeping the current tax code the more likely end result. I'll pause now so that you can repeat your tired mantra one more time... that'll be fun.

[Missileman]

I’m rather amazed you would make that claim since the truth cannot be changed to what it is not. The irrefutable facts are:

Mary and Joe Sixpack when selling the property they have in their labor [cleaning and painting homes on weekends, baby sitting, mowing lawns in their neighbor, and doing other handyman type chores to earn extra money to pay the bills], will have to collect and send to the federal government a 23 percent “fairtax” on the selling price of their labor, and file fairtax returns 12 freaken times a year under the penalty of perjury.

[/size][/I][/b]

Well at least you've finally worded your argument accurately. It seems to me that our current system would be better described as the government taking a cut of a person's labor.

I'm all for getting rid of income tax and replacing it with a national sales tax AKA fair tax. It immediately makes millions of non-taxpayers into taxpayers.

[DragonStryk72]

See: `SEC. 501. MONTHLY REPORTS AND PAYMENTS. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.25:...)


`SEC. 501. MONTHLY REPORTS AND PAYMENTS.
`(a) Tax Reports and Filing Dates-
`(1) IN GENERAL- On or before the 15th day of each month, each person who is--
`(A) liable to collect and remit the tax imposed by this subtitle by reason of section 103(a), or
`(B) liable to pay tax imposed by this subtitle which is not collected pursuant to section 103(a),
shall submit to the appropriate sales tax administering authority (in a form prescribed by the Secretary) a report relating to the previous calendar month.
`(2) CONTENTS OF REPORT- The report required under paragraph (1) shall set forth--
`(A) the gross payments referred to in section 101,
`(B) the tax collected under chapter 4 in connection with such payments,
`(C) the amount and type of any credit claimed, and
`(D) other information reasonably required by the Secretary or the sales tax administering authority for the administration, collection, and remittance of the tax imposed by this subtitle.

And so, the misery of filing annual tax returns becomes a monthly nightmare under the alleged fair tax for Mary and Joe Sixpack.


JWK

So, you mean sellers (AKA businesses) would have to keep up to date records of their owed taxes?! Jesus Mary & Joeseph, what calumny is this, that people would need to keep such accurate records?!

Guess what, JWK? I am Joe Sixpack, and I don't really sell anything. That's right, aside from a garage sale once about five years ago, I don't sell anything, and none of my friends do either. The occasional house sale when you move does NOT necessitate monthly tax forms being sent into the government. So how does this necessitate the average consumer in this country to do a return per month?

[johnwk]

Originally Posted by johnwk
See: `SEC. 501. MONTHLY REPORTS AND PAYMENTS.


`SEC. 501. MONTHLY REPORTS AND PAYMENTS.
`(a) Tax Reports and Filing Dates-
`(1) IN GENERAL- On or before the 15th day of each month, each person who is--
`(A) liable to collect and remit the tax imposed by this subtitle by reason of section 103(a), or
`(B) liable to pay tax imposed by this subtitle which is not collected pursuant to section 103(a),
shall submit to the appropriate sales tax administering authority (in a form prescribed by the Secretary) a report relating to the previous calendar month.
`(2) CONTENTS OF REPORT- The report required under paragraph (1) shall set forth--
`(A) the gross payments referred to in section 101,
`(B) the tax collected under chapter 4 in connection with such payments,
`(C) the amount and type of any credit claimed, and
`(D) other information reasonably required by the Secretary or the sales tax administering authority for the administration, collection, and remittance of the tax imposed by this subtitle.

And so, the misery of filing annual tax returns becomes a monthly nightmare under the alleged fair tax for Mary and Joe Sixpack.


JWK




So, you mean sellers (AKA businesses) would have to ...



No. I’m talking about Mary and Joe Sixpack ordinary working people who have full time jobs and dare to sell the property they have in their labor on weekends cleaning homes, baby sitting, mowing lawns, painting homes and other handyman chores to pay their bills.

And as to the property which Mary and Joe Sixpack have in their labor:

It has been well said that

"the property which every man has in his own labor, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. The patrimony of the poor man lies in the strength and dexterity of his own hands, and to hinder his employing this strength and dexterity in what manner he thinks proper, without injury to his neighbor, is a plain violation of this most sacred property. It is a manifest encroachment upon the just liberty both of the workman and of those who might be disposed to employ him. As it hinders the one from working at what he thinks proper, so it hinders the others from employing whom they think proper." __ See Butchers' Union Co. v. Crescent City Co., 111 U.S. 746 (1884) quoting Smith, Wealth of Nations, Bk. I, c. 10.

JWK


There is no magic wand in government force which changes the definition of theft.

[fj1200]

No. I’m talking about Mary and Joe Sixpack ordinary working people who have full time jobs and dare to sell the property they have in their labor on weekends cleaning homes, baby sitting, mowing lawns, painting homes and other handyman chores to pay their bills.

Yup, exactly what DS said:


So, you mean sellers (AKA businesses) would have to keep up to date records of their owed taxes?!

But J, why should they have a tax advantage compared to those who created a legitimate/registered business who ALSO have "property in their labor" ;) ?

It seems your ENTIRE argument rests on these weekend workers who would be far better off under the Fairtax; that's where your position breaks down. That and your refusal to acknowledge the superiority of the FT over the current system.

[johnwk]

Does the "fairtax" as described in H.R. 25 and its companion legislation [H.J.RES 16] propose to withdraw from Congress’ authority the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and all other incomes?

[fj1200]

:facepalm:

[DragonStryk72]

No. I’m talking about Mary and Joe Sixpack ordinary working people who have full time jobs and dare to sell the property they have in their labor on weekends cleaning homes, baby sitting, mowing lawns, painting homes and other handyman chores to pay their bills.

And as to the property which Mary and Joe Sixpack have in their labor:

It has been well said that

"the property which every man has in his own labor, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. The patrimony of the poor man lies in the strength and dexterity of his own hands, and to hinder his employing this strength and dexterity in what manner he thinks proper, without injury to his neighbor, is a plain violation of this most sacred property. It is a manifest encroachment upon the just liberty both of the workman and of those who might be disposed to employ him. As it hinders the one from working at what he thinks proper, so it hinders the others from employing whom they think proper." __ See Butchers' Union Co. v. Crescent City Co., 111 U.S. 746 (1884) quoting Smith, Wealth of Nations, Bk. I, c. 10.

JWK


There is no magic wand in government force which changes the definition of theft.

Guess what, JWK? I am Joe Sixpack, and I don't really sell anything. That's right, aside from a garage sale once about five years ago, I don't sell anything, and none of my friends do either. The occasional house sale when you move does NOT necessitate monthly tax forms being sent into the government. So how does this necessitate the average consumer in this country to do a return per month?

You mean that part I talked about ,that you just purposely cut out to avoid the subject?

[johnwk]

And, the question is:

Does the "fairtax" as described in H.R. 25 and its companion legislation [H.J.RES 16] propose to withdraw from Congress’ authority the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and all other incomes?

Just the facts man, get to the facts of the text of the legislation.

JWK

[DragonStryk72]

And, the question is:

Does the "fairtax" as described in H.R. 25 and its companion legislation [H.J.RES 16] propose to withdraw from Congress’ authority the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and all other incomes?

Just the facts man, get to the facts of the text of the legislation.

JWK

Sure, as soon as you answer my point that I posted, which you've wuss-pussed out of three times. You don't have an answer, and you're playing the coward's game. So, go ahead answer my point.

[DragonStryk72]

Wow, still nothing? One simple point, and you're beat.

[DragonStryk72]

And, the question is:

Does the "fairtax" as described in H.R. 25 and its companion legislation [H.J.RES 16] propose to withdraw from Congress’ authority the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and all other incomes?

Just the facts man, get to the facts of the text of the legislation.

JWK

Alright, now, I have the answer to your point here, and I'll even send a copy via PM to fj to verify it for you. Now, when you answer my prior point, I'll put out the answer. Your move, John.

[johnwk]

Alright, now, I have the answer to your point here, and I'll even send a copy via PM to fj to verify it for you. Now, when you answer my prior point, I'll put out the answer. Your move, John.


You just don’t get it do you? I’m not interested in commenting on your editorial opinions. You are entitled to you opinions. I’m only interested in the facts concerning H.R. 25 and H.J.RES 16, i.e., what does the language of each propose? And, the question is, Does the "fairtax" as described in H.R. 25 and its companion legislation [H.J.RES 16] propose to withdraw from Congress’ authority the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and all other incomes?

It’s really a very easy question to answer … either yes, or no.


JWK

[DragonStryk72]

I’m not interested in commenting on your editorial opinions. You are entitled to you opinions.
JWK


so, basically, you're a coward whose conviction is so little that he cannot defend his position when against one single point?

If you don't care about anyone's thoughts, why even post? You care, you just don't have an argument to my point, and that is what every person who reads this thread is seeing. They aren't seeing someone stating an intelligent debating point, or putting forth an intelligent presentation of the facts. They see a guy who just keeps beating them about the head, and turns chicken shit when he's confronted with the obvious point of argument to his little thesis. Sack up, or concede the point.

[SpidermanTUba]

Does the “fairtax” require Mary and Joe Sixpack [as I described them at the top of the thread] to give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the action if they sell the property they have in their labor on weekends by cleaning and painting homes, making handyman repairs, baby sitting, cutting their neighbors lawns, etc.? YES

If all income taxes are eliminated, I don't see your point. In the present system they'd be liable for 15.3% FICA + income tax. If you're in the 10% bracket, that's 25.3% - MORE than the proposed 23% fair tax.

[johnwk]

If all income taxes are eliminated, I don't see your point. In the present system they'd be liable for 15.3% FICA + income tax. If you're in the 10% bracket, that's 25.3% - MORE than the proposed 23% fair tax.

"IF"

There is no attempt under the fairtax legislation (H.R.25), or its companion legislation to repeal the 16th Amendment, to withdraw from Congress' authority the power to lay and collect taxex caluclated from profits and gains as were laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909, upheld in Flint vs Stone Tracy, or withdraw from Congress' authority the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from income as was laid during the civil war and upheld in Springer vs United States.

To withdraw that authority H.J.RES.16 would have to contain the following language:

The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

And it doesn't contain the above language because the "fairtax" is a trap to expand what Congress may tax, expanding it to include a new 23 percent tax upon the sale of newly manufactured property, and, a new 23 percent tax upon the sale of property which working people have in their labor.


JWK

[DragonStryk72]

"IF"

There is no attempt under the fairtax legislation (H.R.25), or its companion legislation to repeal the 16th Amendment, to withdraw from Congress' authority the power to lay and collect taxex caluclated from profits and gains as were laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909, upheld in Flint vs Stone Tracy, or withdraw from Congress' authority the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from income as was laid during the civil war and upheld in Springer vs United States.

To withdraw that authority H.J.RES.16 would have to contain the following language:

The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money


JWK

Yeah, because repealing a Constitutional Amendment would require a process separate of the process for approving the Fair Tax, requiring a vote by the many states to adopt a 27th Amendment to repeal the 16th, as opposed to Congress. And stop putting the quote marks around Fair Tax. It's gotten just plain sad. Now you're charting the realm of "IF", as you put it. So now your position is so bad that you have no recourse but vague supposition.

So, you still gonna maintain your point on the "property they have in their labor" bit? Fine, here's what he's saying: If I sell my house, and I want to sell it for $100,000, then the sales tax on it becomes $23,000, making the total purchase price $123,000. Of course, this means you have to give that $23,000 to the government, you know, the guys who collect the taxes. Under no circumstance can the $23,000 be considered my money, as it is specifically allotted to tax. The only way that would be true is if I had to send in $23,000 out of $100,000, which is absolutely not the case.

Now, somehow he maintains that this means the seller has to send in tax forms every single month, but you know who sells a house a month? Real estate agents, and house flippers (AKA business owners), and most of them would be thrilled to death to have a record like that. No one aside from business owners have a reason to sell any significant property every single month of the year, and they have to maintain those sorts of records anyhow.

[fj1200]

"IF"

This is all rather funny because you refuse to defend your other assertions. I guess it's the IRS for you, and the rest of us, because your state rate plan goes nowhere.

But I hear Cain pwned in SC the other night... I bet that eats you up.

[SpidermanTUba]

"IF"

There is no attempt under the fairtax legislation (H.R.25), or its companion legislation to repeal the 16th Amendment,
Maybe that's because the writers figure it will be easier to pass it if they don't have to amend the fucking Constitution to do it. Perhaps you should consider the fact they aren't idealistic egotistical twats like yourself, but instead have real practical ideas for real people and a desire to get them done.