Richard Dawkins: Islam is "one of the greatest evils of the world."

[jimnyc]

I found this to be quite telling and spot on 1 1/2 excerpt from Richard Dawkins. Want to read more about him -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins

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"There is a belief that every word of the Koran is literally true, and there's a kind of closemindedness which is, I think, less present in the former Christendom, perhaps because we've had long - I don't know quite why - but there's more of a historical tradition of questioning. There are people in the Islamic world who simply say, 'Islam is right, and we are going to impose our will.' There's an asymmetry. I think in a way we are being too nice. I think that it's possible to be naively overoptimistic, and if you reach out to people who have absolutely no intention of reaching back to you, then you may be disillusioned."

[fj1200]

Doesn't he think that Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. are the other "greatest evils"?

[Noir]

Doesn't he think that Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. are the other "greatest evils"?

While I won't speak on his behalf, it is my belief that all religions by there very nature are evil, some are more proactive than others, atm Islam and $cientology are very proactive, and thus could be said to be 'more' evil or 'greater' evils.

[fj1200]

While I won't speak on his behalf, it is my belief that all religions by there very nature are evil, some are more proactive than others, atm Islam and $cientology are very proactive, and thus could be said to be 'more' evil or 'greater' evils.

Interesting, I would say the LACK of religion is far more evil than religion itself.


II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS

4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime

III 19,178,000 VICTIMS: THE LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS

8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan's Savage Military
9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey's Genocidal Purges
11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland's Ethnic Cleansing
13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito's Slaughterhouse
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

[jimnyc]

Doesn't he think that Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. are the other "greatest evils"?

I don't think any religion is evil by nature. They are simply belief systems that religious people will use as guides for their lives. It just so happens, that in current times, really only one of those religions is responsible for the worlds terrorism. Additionally, I believe it also has an inordinate amount of other abuses to women and regular citizens (some countries worse/better than others). I also think WAY too many Islamic leaders and Imams are responsible for the "evil" in Islam.

Currently, none of the other religions has millions under Shariah Law, or under systematic abuse by leaders, clerics and others in charge.

Example.... The CBS reporter attacked in Egypt - I was reading the article and they stated that figures showed that about 80% of the women in Egypt have suffered sexual abuse and/or harassment. Even worse, 62% of the men admitted that they have performed these abuses. And where is the investigation into what happened to this woman?

Find those figures in any non-Islamic country or areas under the other religions. Don't bother, you won't find it. And the scary part is that Egypt is one of the more "civilized" Islamic countries!

[Noir]

Interesting, I would say the LACK of religion is far more evil than religion itself.


http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

I have commented on this exact point countless times (as does dawkins LOTS), but I'm not going to bother repeating myself when you havent listened before.

[fj1200]

I have commented on this exact point countless times (as does dawkins LOTS), but I'm not going to bother repeating myself when you havent listened before.

Good for Dawkins. I've not heard you respond before and I haven't brought it up (here) before either.

[Noir]

Good for Dawkins. I've not heard you respond before and I haven't brought it up (here) before either.

Mkay,
My apologies,
To keep the point itself summery, the damage itself is done by the dogmatic application of a belief system. Communism is the most obvious example, and you need only look to modern day North Korea as another example (Christopher Hitchens talks about this in detail) there is no religion as such, but there is a quasi-religion, the great leader is their god, miracles occur (for example during the birth of the dear leader Korean birds burst into song etc)

While these are not religions in the old fashioned sense. They, in reality, are.

And as a slightly connected note that is why I (and as far as I am aware Dawkins aswell) am I'm favour not of an atheist state or society, but a secular one, because through freedom you dismantle dogma.

[fj1200]

Mkay,
My apologies,
To keep the point itself summery, the damage itself is done by the dogmatic application of a belief system. Communism is the most obvious example, and you need only look to modern day North Korea as another example (Christopher Hitchens talks about this in detail) there is no religion as such, but there is a quasi-religion, the great leader is their god, miracles occur (for example during the birth of the dear leader Korean birds burst into song etc)

While these are not religions in the old fashioned sense. They, in reality, are.

And as a slightly connected note that is why I (and as far as I am aware Dawkins aswell) am I'm favour not of an atheist state or society, but a secular one, because through freedom you dismantle dogma.

So by proclaiming that which is NOT religion actually IS religion you can dismiss any point not convenient to your position. That's a mighty handy position to have.

[Noir]

So by proclaiming that which is NOT religion actually IS religion you can dismiss any point not convenient to your position. That's a mighty handy position to have.

No.

Basically the problem is that people derive morality from religion. Those that murdered on 9/11 didn't think they were murdering, rather doing their gods work. The same can be said of basically all religions.

In effect the god is the dictator, and whatever they command is right and just.

Once you see that it's pretty easy to see how human gods and the invisible ones are interchangeable. No?

[fj1200]

No.

Yes. A man-made quasi-religion is not religion.


Basically the problem is that people derive morality from religion. Those that murdered on 9/11 didn't think they were murdering, rather doing their gods work. The same can be said of basically all religions.

In effect the god is the dictator, and whatever they command is right and just.

Once you see that it's pretty easy to see how human gods and the invisible ones are interchangeable. No?

No, religion is more than a dictator proclaiming that they are god. It's a set of beliefs that supersedes an individual on earth. Because an atheistic Communist leader demands allegiance or creates a godhood around themselves does not make their dogma a religion. Anything else is a convenient redefinition.

[Noir]

Yes. A man-made quasi-religion is not religion.



No, religion is more than a dictator proclaiming that they are god. It's a set of beliefs that supersedes an individual on earth. Because an atheistic Communist leader demands allegiance or creates a godhood around themselves does not make their dogma a religion. Anything else is a convenient redefinition.

Not when you are raised and indoctrinated into believing that your leader is a god on earth. Literaly always right, always just, and so forth. We can really have no comprehension of what that is like,

If I may put it this way, have you ever read the book 1984 by George Orwell? If so, would it matter if Big Brother was a real, living human being, or if he was an idea, created and sustained by a group of people but projected to the public as a living person?

[fj1200]

Not when you are raised and indoctrinated into believing that your leader is a god on earth. Literaly always right, always just, and so forth. We can really have no comprehension of what that is like,

If I may put it this way, have you ever read the book 1984 by George Orwell? If so, would it matter if Big Brother was a real, living human being, or if he was an idea, created and sustained by a group of people but projected to the public as a living person?

You're still perverting religion into a definition that suits your purpose. An authoritarian/totalitarian that tries to deify itself to serve its own purposes is not a religion even as they attempt to indoctrinate its people.

[Noir]

You're still perverting religion into a definition that suits your purpose. An authoritarian/totalitarian that tries to deify itself to serve its own purposes is not a religion even as they attempt to indoctrinate its people.

Can you answer the 1984 question?

[Missileman]

Interesting, I would say the LACK of religion is far more evil than religion itself.


http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

So you believe all of those killings were committed by atheists...very interesting.

[pete311]

i like dawkins, but wtf is with that music, c'mon

[fj1200]

Can you answer the 1984 question?

More directly you mean?


If I may put it this way, have you ever read the book 1984 by George Orwell? If so, would it matter if Big Brother was a real, living human being, or if he was an idea, created and sustained by a group of people but projected to the public as a living person?

It's been awhile since I've read it if I ever have for that matter and don't know the religiousness of Big Brother, or his creators, but I'll assume a lack of religion because it's convenient for my purpose.

No, it wouldn't matter because you would have an areligious leader/group attempting to create a quasi-religion to further their own powers. That's still an authoritarian regime working for its own purposes.

For what it's worth I agree with you regarding a secular state, especially not the religion of Atheism ;) , as it only leads to corruptible power.

[fj1200]

So you believe all of those killings were committed by atheists...very interesting.

No, but I can see why you would infer that.

[jimnyc]

So you believe all of those killings were committed by atheists...very interesting.

With all due respect - there's a big difference between people killing in the name of their religion and celebrating their religion after killings as opposed to people murdering/killing who just happened to belong to a certain faith. Yes, many faiths have done this throughout the times - but I still stand by my original statement that unfortunately the HUGE overwhelming majority of it transpiring today is from the Islamic faith and because of the Islamic faith - whether perverted by these idiot or not.

[Missileman]

With all due respect - there's a big difference between people killing in the name of their religion and celebrating their religion after killings as opposed to people murdering/killing who just happened to belong to a certain faith. Yes, many faiths have done this throughout the times - but I still stand by my original statement that unfortunately the HUGE overwhelming majority of it transpiring today is from the Islamic faith and because of the Islamic faith - whether perverted by these idiot or not.

I agree. But there are those who bring up the mass killing by communist states as evidence of the evil of atheism when the vast majority of them were likely committed by non-atheists living in a country whose government had banned the open practice of religion. Apparently they believe Stalin et al, had some magic switch that when thrown removed all belief in a god from the entire populace.

[fj1200]

I agree. But there are those who bring up the mass killing by communist states as evidence of the evil of atheism when the vast majority of them were likely committed by non-atheists living in a country whose government had banned the open practice of religion. Apparently they believe Stalin et al, had some magic switch that when thrown removed all belief in a god from the entire populace.

So an atheistic totalitarian regime that has banned the open practice of religion is just fulfilling the wishes of the people?

[Missileman]

So an atheistic totalitarian regime that has banned the open practice of religion is just fulfilling the wishes of the people?

No, it's a regime of mostly religious people whose conviction is so weak that they allow a despot to get them to commit heinous atrocities.

[fj1200]

No, it's a regime of mostly religious people whose conviction is so weak that they allow a despot to get them to commit heinous atrocities.

So we're in agreement that the atheistic totalitarian regime is bad news?

[Missileman]

So we're in agreement that the atheistic totalitarian regime is bad news?

No worse than a theocratic one.

[fj1200]

I think theocracy is far outweighed.


II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS

4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime

III 19,178,000 VICTIMS: THE LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS

8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan's Savage Military
9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey's Genocidal Purges
11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland's Ethnic Cleansing
13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito's Slaughterhouse

[Gaffer]

Actually Japan would be considered a theocracy as they worshiped the emperor. Dying for the emperor was a free ticket to heaven.

[Missileman]

Actually Japan would be considered a theocracy as they worshiped the emperor. Dying for the emperor was a free ticket to heaven.

Yeah...and the Nazi's weren't atheists and I don't believe the Pakistanis were either.