Why Men Hate Going to Church

[Pale Rider]

Why Men Hate Going to Church

By David Murrow
Reviewed by Jamie Dunlop


Why do men hate going to church? Even for this reviewer—who attends a church with no discernable gender gap (48 percent male)—the topic is pressing given the female-preponderant membership of many churches. Why Men Hate Going to Church, by David Murrow, explores the elements of American church life that discourage attendance and engagement of men.

His conclusion? Churches have shifted toward a style that is comfortable for the stereotypical woman—at the expense of the stereotypical man. And by men, Murrow is referring to masculine men: "Tough, earth-working guys . . . high achievers, alpha males, risk takers, and visionaries" as set against "the quiet, introspective gentlemen who populate the church today" (6).

Arguing from data and anecdote, Murrow describes the elements of today’s church that are unattractive to unchurched men, and then prescribes a solution.

AN ENLIGHTENING DIAGNOSIS
Murrow’s description of church elements that are foreign and uncomfortable to men is enlightening and useful. And some of the changes he calls for turn out to be quite biblical—including changes largely derided by more theologically "progressive" denominations such as the Presbyterian Church (USA) in which Murrow serves as an elder.

Murrow points to four categories of church elements that clash with the temperament of most unchurched men.

1. Church makes men feel uncomfortable because it emphasizes feminine values

Murrow states that many elements of modern churches—from music to vocabulary to the dress code—emphasize values that are more easily associated with femininity than masculinity. For example, sentimental songs that celebrate the intimacy of relationship with Jesus Christ bring a more feminine style of worship. As Murrow writes, "Think of the mental gymnastics that must take place inside a man’s subconscious mind as he sings lyrics like these. He’s trying to express his love to Jesus, a man who lives today, using words no man would dare say to another, set to music that sounds like the love songs his wife listens to in the car" (139).

A second example of overemphasis on feminine values in the church is a desire for comfort at the expense of risk. Murrow writes in chapter 4, "Velvet Coffin Christianity is the real cancer in the church today. Its key characteristic is comfort. Everyone is so nice to each other. And we choose a church based on how comfortable it makes us feel . . . Men gag on this kind of religion" (27).

Murrow’s reaction against this overemphasis is one of the high points of the book: "Today’s church is all about safety. What’s our top prayer request? ‘God, keep us safe. Keep our kids safe. Watch over us and protect us.’ God’s job is to keep our well-ordered lives flowing smoothly" (162). Churches that focus on their own comfort will cease to attract men, Murrow warns, and churches without men are prone to turn inward, away from their call to change the world.

2. Church forces men to do things that they find uncomfortable

From asking men to sing in public, to sermons that are longer than the space between television commercials, Murrow showcases elements of church life that are uncomfortable for most unchurched men.

3. Men assume that church will require them to give up masculine traits

Murrow lists a number of men’s misconceptions about what they must give up to become part of a church. They assume church will make them "dorky" and "nerdy"—the equivalent of the evangelical Christian Ned Flanders from the Simpsons cartoon.

4. Church does not present a compelling model of leadership

One assumption that underlies much of Murrow’s thinking on leadership is that "If men are to return to Christ, they need strong, godly laymen to help them in their walk . . . For too long we have asked men to follow our teaching, our methods, and our theology. Men do not follow these things. I’ll say it again: men follow men." It is difficult to argue with the premise that visionary leaders are the source of much change in this world. As a result, Murrow castigates the church for its inability to inspire men to greatness.

http://www.alliancenet.org/CC/article/0,,PTID314526%7CCHID775988%7CCIID2279238,00.html

[Nienna]

I think this is a good perspective, and I think that the "meekness" of Jesus is overemphasized in many churches. Jesus willingly submitted his will and his rights; he treated hurting people with gentleness and compassion. But there are lots of stories in the Bible that show Jesus willing to FIGHT (at least verbally) for the Father, stories that show Jesus' POWER. The Christian faith is dynamic and HARD, not for the weak-willed. Men would be more attracted to it if they understood these aspects.

[Pale Rider]

I think this is a good perspective, and I think that the "meekness" of Jesus is overemphasized in many churches. Jesus willingly submitted his will and his rights; he treated hurting people with gentleness and compassion. But there are lots of stories in the Bible that show Jesus willing to FIGHT (at least verbally) for the Father, stories that show Jesus' POWER. The Christian faith is dynamic and HARD, not for the weak-willed. Men would be more attracted to it if they understood these aspects.

Although Jesus was a man, he was also a GOD! He knew what he was here for. It was easy for him to appear or portray himself as "meak". He had an ace in the hole.

I agree with the article. Even though I think about going to church more, I'm always uneasy sitting through it. And actually, the only reason I think of going to church is that Jesus said, "where two or more are gathered in my name, there is power."

[Nienna]

Although Jesus was a man, he was also a GOD! He knew what he was here for. It was easy for him to appear or portray himself as "meak". He had an ace in the hole.

I agree with the article. Even though I think about going to church more, I'm always uneasy sitting through it. And actually, the only reason I think of going to church is that Jesus said, "where two or more are gathered in my name, there is power."

I don't think church should be so much about going and listening to a sermon. I think the early church was mostly a gathering of people, sharing stories about their lives with each other, offering suggestions to each other, pitching in and helping and SERVING wherever they were needed. And teaching and communion and singing were thrown in. I think the early church experience was more about LIVING LIFE than filling a pew once a week. People were ACCOUNTABLE to each other. If you were a believer, but refused to live the life (ie, stop sinning), you were to be expelled from membership and not allowed to meet. There was the expectation that you had to LIVE this stuff.

[avatar4321]

I think those points highly depend on what Church you are going to.

[Guernicaa]

I think those points highly depend on what Church you are going to.
I agree.

I always hated church because A)I didn't believe most of the stuff and B)It was very boring.

[Pale Rider]

I think those points highly depend on what Church you are going to.

They're pretty close to right on for any church I've ever been too... :dunno:

I once went to a tent revival down in Tampa, Florida. Not THAT was fun.

[Pale Rider]

I agree.

I always hated church because A)I didn't believe most of the stuff and B)It was very boring.

Too bad. Maybe you wouldn't be a liberal had you believed.

[Nuc]

I hated it because everytime I went I would get a splitting headache. Also it happens on Sunday, one of the days kids have off from school. They don't want to waste their time listening to some guy droning on and on about boring crap. I wanted to be out riding my bike or playing sports. Therefore I always had a bad impression of church. It's a place my parents took me to to waste my time. Never changed my opinion.

[Hugh Lincoln]

Although Jesus was a man, he was also a GOD! He knew what he was here for. It was easy for him to appear or portray himself as "meak". He had an ace in the hole.

It's funny/sacriligeous, but imagine Jesus walking through the 'hood. A tough bumps him. "Yo, faggot, what's up with the robe?" And then, after enough, Jesus decides to employ a miracle of some kind.

I always HATED church as a kid. Vomit. I was dragged to Catholic church in my itchy wool pants. It was so gay, sitting there singing the gayest songs imaginable. I'm sure there are ways to make it better, but just look at who runs most American churches these days... lesbians, gays, meek males. I once read that the lowest levels of testosterone in any man were found in preachers.

[Pale Rider]

It's funny/sacriligeous, but imagine Jesus walking through the 'hood. A tough bumps him. "Yo, faggot, what's up with the robe?" And then, after enough, Jesus decides to employ a miracle of some kind.
Word.


I always HATED church as a kid. Vomit. I was dragged to Catholic church in my itchy wool pants. It was so gay, sitting there singing the gayest songs imaginable. I'm sure there are ways to make it better, but just look at who runs most American churches these days... lesbians, gays, meek males. I once read that the lowest levels of testosterone in any man were found in preachers.

:laugh: :thumb:

I had to go to "Sunday School" as a youngster. I HATED it! But I understand why my parents made me do it. I did learn about my religon, and I'm a stronger Christian now because of it. Still... I HATED it... :cool:

[Guernicaa]

I present Debatepolicy with example #1 on how conservatives misrepresent Christianity to form their politics:

Too bad. Maybe you wouldn't be a liberal had you believed.

If Jesus were alive today, Jesus would not agree in cutting social programs to help the poor, nor would he agree with invading a country that never harmed us in any way, shape, or form. Calling gay people "queers!" and "fags!" is not what Jesus stood for. Degrading minorities, and making racist statements because of an ethno-centric redneck ignorance would not be condoned Jesus.

The only issues you guys have a fucking leg to stand on with Jesus is abortion, not being having sex with the same sex, and not having sex in general unless your married.

Everything else is your own evil spin on Christianity.

[Nuc]

I present Debatepolicy with example #1 on how conservatives misrepresent Christianity to form their politics:


If Jesus were alive today, Jesus would not agree in cutting social programs to help the poor, nor would he agree with invading a country that never harmed us in any way, shape, or form. Calling gay people "queers!" and "fags!" is not what Jesus stood for. Degrading minorities, and making racist statements because of an ethno-centric redneck ignorance would not be condoned Jesus.

The only issues you guys have a fucking leg to stand on with Jesus is abortion, not being having sex with the same sex, and not having sex in general unless your married.

Everything else is your own evil spin on Christianity.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Now watch the hypocrisy fly! These guys definitely create god in their own (wishful) self-image.

[Nienna]

I present Debatepolicy with example #1 on how conservatives misrepresent Christianity to form their politics:


If Jesus were alive today, Jesus would not agree in cutting social programs to help the poor, nor would he agree with invading a country that never harmed us in any way, shape, or form. Calling gay people "queers!" and "fags!" is not what Jesus stood for. Degrading minorities, and making racist statements because of an ethno-centric redneck ignorance would not be condoned Jesus.

The only issues you guys have a fucking leg to stand on with Jesus is abortion, not being having sex with the same sex, and not having sex in general unless your married.

Everything else is your own evil spin on Christianity.

If Jesus was walking the earth today, he wouldn't give a HOOT about politics. He would be too busy forming PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS with people, healing them from illness and sin, teaching them how to OBEY the will of GOD instead of their own desires. If he met a homosexual, he would most likely have called on him to turn from his sin, as he did the woman caught in adultery. But, that would be between HIM and the homosexual. Jesus has NO NEED for laws, politics, and "stances on issues."

But, that's actually inaccurate, because if Jesus was here today, it would be JUDGMENT time.

[Guernicaa]

it would be JUDGMENT time.
Ring the alarm! Jesus is coming!

[Nienna]

Ring the alarm! Jesus is coming!

Yes, he is.

[Nuc]

Yes, he is.

What if it's a "SHE"? Maybe Oprah, Hillary, Condi, Rosanne, lot's of possible candidates just in the States. :laugh2: :poke: :cheers2: :laugh2: :salute:

[Nienna]

What if it's a "SHE"? Maybe Oprah, Hillary, Condi, Rosanne, lot's of possible candidates just in the States. :laugh2: :poke: :cheers2: :laugh2: :salute:

Naw... He's a dude. :)

[Guernicaa]

Did you guys no Jesus could have been black? Or Muslim looking?

The area in which he’s from (The Middle East) was and is predominantly Muslim looking people.

If he came back and we could see that he was in fact Muslim looking, can you imagine what this would do to the right-wing psyche?

[stephanie]

Did you guys no Jesus could have been black? Or Muslim looking?

The area in which he’s from (The Middle East) was and is predominantly Muslim looking people.

If he came back and we could see that he was in fact Muslim looking, can you imagine what this would do to the right-wing psyche?

:rolleyes:

[Nienna]

Did you guys no Jesus could have been black? Or Muslim looking?

The area in which he’s from (The Middle East) was and is predominantly Muslim looking people.

If he came back and we could see that he was in fact Muslim looking, can you imagine what this would do to the right-wing psyche?

He was almost definitely "Muslim-looking." And I'm okay with that. What about the rest of you right-wingers? Any damaged psyches out there??

[Guernicaa]

What are you rolling your eyes at?

Anyone with an intelligence level above a rat knows that Jesus was not pale white because of the people who lived in that area during his life, and who still live there today as well.

Saying Jesus was white is like saying the slaves we brought here from Africa were Chinese.

[Guernicaa]

He was almost definitely "Muslim-looking." And I'm okay with that. What about the rest of you right-wingers? Any damaged psyches out there??
Stephanie's still in the denial stage.

[stephanie]

What are you rolling your eyes at dumbfuck?

Anyone with an intelligence level above a rat knows that Jesus was not pale white because of the people who lived in that area during his life, and who still live there today as well.

Saying Jesus was white is like saying the slaves we brought here from Africa were Chinese.

Who said any of that? Except you..just now...Whoa..

[stephanie]

Stephanie's still in the denial stage.

You don't know what I think or believe...So don't pretend you do...thank you

[Pale Rider]

I present Debatepolicy with example #1 on how conservatives misrepresent Christianity to form their politics:


If Jesus were alive today, Jesus would not agree in cutting social programs to help the poor, nor would he agree with invading a country that never harmed us in any way, shape, or form. Calling gay people "queers!" and "fags!" is not what Jesus stood for. Degrading minorities, and making racist statements because of an ethno-centric redneck ignorance would not be condoned Jesus.

The only issues you guys have a fucking leg to stand on with Jesus is abortion, not being having sex with the same sex, and not having sex in general unless your married.

Everything else is your own evil spin on Christianity.


"YOU" know "NOTHING" of what Jesus would or would not do. It is BLASPHEMOUS of you to try and speak for him. YOU, the nonbeliever.

The only person or people you could EVER speak for is the Christian haters such as yourself.

Leave the "what would Jesus do's" to us who have knowledge and believe in him, and STFU, you fool.

[Pale Rider]

Did you guys no Jesus could have been black? Or Muslim looking?

The area in which he’s from (The Middle East) was and is predominantly Muslim looking people.

If he came back and we could see that he was in fact Muslim looking, can you imagine what this would do to the right-wing psyche?

What if, what if, what if... shit... we can what if all day long. Fact is NO ONE has EVER SEEN Jesus. So your what if's are just more crap intended to rile up the thread.

Take a break asshole. Get with the topic of the thread or get the fuck out. You're pressing your luck, and are on the fast track to the same end as gabby.

[Guernicaa]

"YOU" know "NOTHING" of what Jesus would or would not do. It is BLASPHEMOUS of you to try and speak for him. YOU, the nonbeliever.

The only person or people you could EVER speak for, it the Christian haters such as yourself.

Leave the "what would Jesus do's" to us who have knowledge and believe in him, and STFU, you fool.
So basically you’re trying to say that someone who studied a particular subject and knows a lot about it, but doesn't believe in it, shouldn't be able to speak for it? Even when they know more than the person who does believe in it?
That makes a lot of sense dumbfuck.
And I will not leave the "What would Jesus do's" to the right-wing community, because as I explained earlier, right-wingers believe in a warped form of Christianity that does not accurately represent Jesus.

If conservatives are going to continue to use their warped form of Jesus’ beliefs to make talking points, than liberals are going to continuously have to step in and shut them down.

[Guernicaa]

What if, what if, what if... shit... we can what if all day long. Fact is NO ONE has EVER SEEN Jesus. So your what if's are just more crap intended to rile up the thread.

Take a break asshole. Get with the topic of the thread or get the fuck out. You're pressing your luck, and are on the fast track to the same end as gabby.
hahahahahahaahhaaha....

So in other words, you can call me an asshole, you can swear at me, you can be rude to me, but I can't shove it right back in your face???

That would mean that you’re not only speaking for the moderators/administrators, but also calling them bias towards liberals.

[stephanie]

How bout that....

Then libs are going to step in and .....shut them down..
Gotta love that Free speech thingy for me, but not for thee...:coffee:

[5stringJeff]

1. Church makes men feel uncomfortable because it emphasizes feminine values

2. Church forces men to do things that they find uncomfortable

3. Men assume that church will require them to give up masculine traits

4. Church does not present a compelling model of leadership

IMO, the solution for Christian men is to fix these problems where they exist, not to quit going to church.

[5stringJeff]

I present Debatepolicy with example #1 on how conservatives misrepresent Christianity to form their politics:

If Jesus were alive today, Jesus would not agree in cutting social programs to help the poor, nor would he agree with invading a country that never harmed us in any way, shape, or form. Calling gay people "queers!" and "fags!" is not what Jesus stood for. Degrading minorities, and making racist statements because of an ethno-centric redneck ignorance would not be condoned Jesus.

The only issues you guys have a fucking leg to stand on with Jesus is abortion, not being having sex with the same sex, and not having sex in general unless your married.

Everything else is your own evil spin on Christianity.

Since you're not a Christian, your spin on Christian values is dubious, at best. But I'll try to entertain you.

First, Jesus would encourage individuals, not governments, to show compassion to the poor.

Second, Jesus was well aware that there would be wars and rumors of wars up until the very end of the age. In fact, He Himself said that He "came not to bring peace, but a sword," in that faith in Him as the Son of God would bring discord to families, communities, and nations.

Third, I'm sure Jesus would not advocate insulting anyone, homosexual or not. He would not, however, condone sinful behavior as 'normal' or 'acceptable.'

[Mr. P]

I stopped attending church because, I got sick and tired of the politics and hypocrisy. Have my beliefs changed..no.

[Pale Rider]

So basically you’re trying to say that someone who studied a particular subject and knows a lot about it, but doesn't believe in it, shouldn't be able to speak for it? Even when they know more than the person who does believe in it?
That makes a lot of sense dumbfuck.
And I will not leave the "What would Jesus do's" to the right-wing community, because as I explained earlier, right-wingers believe in a warped form of Christianity that does not accurately represent Jesus.

If conservatives are going to continue to use their warped form of Jesus’ beliefs to make talking points, than liberals are going to continuously have to step in and shut them down.

Now come the "so basically" spin and lies aye. "You studied, you're smarter than I am, I don't know what I'm talking about"... all as if you "KNEW" me, when in fact, YOU HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA WHO I AM, WHAT I'VE STUDIED, WHAT I'VE DONE, WHERE I'VE BEEN, WHO I KNOW, NOTHING, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME, YET YOU WANT TO SPEW YOU LIBERAL BULLSHIT HERE LIKE YOU HAVE A KNATS ASS OF AN IDEA WHO OR WHAT I AM???????!!!!

You are the EPITOME of arrogance you ignorant liberal mother fucker. You REAK of liberal condenscension that the WHOLE FUCKING WORLD is stupider than you are. You make me sick. You're smug and concieted air of superiority permiates through you liberal swine. You all HATE all that is holy. You all HATE anything that is GOOD. You wish America fail in order to make YOURSELF FEEL GOOD. And to anyone that would EVER disagree with you, ESPECIALLY one of those GOD DAMN CHRISTIANS, YOU'RE GOING TO TELL THEM A THING OR TWO AREN'T YOU?

GO FUCK YOURSELF, YOU MOTHER FUCKING BIGOT!

[Samantha]

I stopped attending church because, I got sick and tired of the politics and hypocrisy. Have my beliefs changed..no.If you don't go to church to learn Jesus' teachings, how will you be a good Christian? I think this is the problem with the so called Christians of today. They don't know much about the religion, but they use it as some sort of a badge to make themselves feel better, like they belong to something, but they have no idea what is is that they belong to! They think Christianity is about hating gays and killing Muslims and supporting a Corporate oil baron family who says they are Christian. If Christians were really truly practising Christianity, they would be anti-war, anti-death penalty, anti-abortion, anti-killing for any reason. They would be pro-everything that would help the little guy, the poor, the immigrant, the children, the teachers, the mothers, the struggling, the sick...

I wish you so-called Christians WOULD go to Church, you certainly seem like you need some learnin'.

[Pale Rider]

IMO, the solution for Christian men is to fix these problems where they exist, not to quit going to church.

I agree. There's still a lot of times I think of going to church but don't.

I'm not even sure churches are aware of these problems, but if they were, I can't imagine if being much of a problem to "man up" the church a little bit. Less songs, a little more hell fire and brimestone in the sermon, something to eat... :D

[Pale Rider]

If you don't go to church to learn Jesus' teachings, how will you be a good Christian? I think this is the problem with the so called Christians of today. They don't know much about the religion, but they use it as some sort of a badge to make themselves feel better, like they belong to something, but they have no idea what is is that they belong to! They think Christianity is about hating gays and killing Muslims and supporting a Corporate oil baron family who says they are Christian. If Christians were really truly practising Christianity, they would be anti-war, anti-death penalty, anti-abortion, anti-killing for any reason. They would be pro-everything that would help the little guy, the poor, the immigrant, the children, the teachers, the mothers, the struggling, the sick...

I wish you so-called Christians WOULD go to Church, you certainly seem like you need some learnin'.


Where and when did you meat these "so called Christians".

All one need to do to learn of Christ, is read the bible. It's no more complicated than that.

[Nienna]

If you don't go to church to learn Jesus' teachings, how will you be a good Christian? I think this is the problem with the so called Christians of today. They don't know much about the religion, but they use it as some sort of a badge to make themselves feel better, like they belong to something, but they have no idea what is is that they belong to! They think Christianity is about hating gays and killing Muslims and supporting a Corporate oil baron family who says they are Christian. If Christians were really truly practising Christianity, they would be anti-war, anti-death penalty, anti-abortion, anti-killing for any reason. They would be pro-everything that would help the little guy, the poor, the immigrant, the children, the teachers, the mothers, the struggling, the sick...

I wish you so-called Christians WOULD go to Church, you certainly seem like you need some learnin'.

The problem with Christianity today isn't that people need to learn more about the religion; it's that people need to get to know Father God through Jesus. This is religion: that we help widows and orphans in their distress and keep ourselves from being polluted by the world. That's it. Doctrines and statements of belief mean NOTHING if people will not surrender their hearts in obedience to God. HIS ways are perfect and loving and TRUE. If we walk with God, moment-by-moment, we simply do HIS will, and HE knows the perfect thing to do at the perfect moment.

There is a time for war, a time for execution, a time to allow people to struggle, and a time to lift people up, a time to heal. There is no pre-set position on issues, although some things are always wrong. Going to church may not help people learn. But loving the people around us and surrendering our wills to God's will guarantee growth.

[Dilloduck]

If you don't go to church to learn Jesus' teachings, how will you be a good Christian? I think this is the problem with the so called Christians of today. They don't know much about the religion, but they use it as some sort of a badge to make themselves feel better, like they belong to something, but they have no idea what is is that they belong to! They think Christianity is about hating gays and killing Muslims and supporting a Corporate oil baron family who says they are Christian. If Christians were really truly practising Christianity, they would be anti-war, anti-death penalty, anti-abortion, anti-killing for any reason. They would be pro-everything that would help the little guy, the poor, the immigrant, the children, the teachers, the mothers, the struggling, the sick...

I wish you so-called Christians WOULD go to Church, you certainly seem like you need some learnin'.

Trying to somehow use George Bush as some kind of icon that is representative American Christianity is such a bizarre stretch that even Gumby wouldn't try it.

[Mr. P]

If you don't go to church to learn Jesus' teachings, how will you be a good Christian? I think this is the problem with the so called Christians of today. They don't know much about the religion, but they use it as some sort of a badge to make themselves feel better, like they belong to something, but they have no idea what is is that they belong to! They think Christianity is about hating gays and killing Muslims and supporting a Corporate oil baron family who says they are Christian. If Christians were really truly practising Christianity, they would be anti-war, anti-death penalty, anti-abortion, anti-killing for any reason. They would be pro-everything that would help the little guy, the poor, the immigrant, the children, the teachers, the mothers, the struggling, the sick...

I wish you so-called Christians WOULD go to Church, you certainly seem like you need some learnin'.

Going to church does not make a Christian...tis you who needs some learnin.

[avatar4321]

I present Debatepolicy with example #1 on how conservatives misrepresent Christianity to form their politics:


If Jesus were alive today, Jesus would not agree in cutting social programs to help the poor, nor would he agree with invading a country that never harmed us in any way, shape, or form. Calling gay people "queers!" and "fags!" is not what Jesus stood for. Degrading minorities, and making racist statements because of an ethno-centric redneck ignorance would not be condoned Jesus.

The only issues you guys have a fucking leg to stand on with Jesus is abortion, not being having sex with the same sex, and not having sex in general unless your married.

Everything else is your own evil spin on Christianity.

You really don't know anything about Christ do you? He wasnt an advocate of government programs. He was an advocate of individual responsibility. Much like we are. Christ's powers are far greater then those of the sword, but we are often commanded to defend ourselves. Especially when our lives and liberty are in jeopardy.

And Christ was also one of the first ones to point out hypocrisy. And you my friend are a hypocrite if you think calling people rednecks and condescending to them with your holier than thou attitude is any better than any insulting any other group of people. Especially when the people who use those degrading terms are more than likely using the terms on themselves.

[avatar4321]

Ring the alarm! Jesus is coming!

He is coming. You can't deny the authority and rights to the Lord of the Earth.

[avatar4321]

Did you guys no Jesus could have been black? Or Muslim looking?

The area in which he’s from (The Middle East) was and is predominantly Muslim looking people.

If he came back and we could see that he was in fact Muslim looking, can you imagine what this would do to the right-wing psyche?

He is a jew, why would He be muslim looking? if anything he would be jewish looking.

[avatar4321]

What are you rolling your eyes at?

Anyone with an intelligence level above a rat knows that Jesus was not pale white because of the people who lived in that area during his life, and who still live there today as well.

Saying Jesus was white is like saying the slaves we brought here from Africa were Chinese.

Anyone with an intelligence level above the rats know that this is merely a straw man you've set up to attempt to race bait.

[avatar4321]

I stopped attending church because, I got sick and tired of the politics and hypocrisy. Have my beliefs changed..no.

You going to quit life to? because the fact is no one in life is perfect. And politics is everywhere.

[avatar4321]

If you don't go to church to learn Jesus' teachings, how will you be a good Christian? I think this is the problem with the so called Christians of today. They don't know much about the religion, but they use it as some sort of a badge to make themselves feel better, like they belong to something, but they have no idea what is is that they belong to! They think Christianity is about hating gays and killing Muslims and supporting a Corporate oil baron family who says they are Christian. If Christians were really truly practising Christianity, they would be anti-war, anti-death penalty, anti-abortion, anti-killing for any reason. They would be pro-everything that would help the little guy, the poor, the immigrant, the children, the teachers, the mothers, the struggling, the sick...

I wish you so-called Christians WOULD go to Church, you certainly seem like you need some learnin'.

It be nice if you knew anything about Christianity and conservatives before you complain about "not living it" because your perceptions are completely inaccurate.

There is nothing in the scriptures that gives any person any reason to believe that defending the lives of others is somehow wrong. There is nothing that requires a Christian suffer under an oppressive government and give up the God given rights they are bestowed with by their creator.

Nor is there anything in the scriptures that requires Christians to be anti capital punishment. In fact, the scriptures are repleat with commandments for capital punishment.

And as Christians and conservatives we do help little guy, the poor, the immigrant, the children, the teachers, the mothers, the struggling, the sick... We do so by teaching them individual responsibility, respect for the law, and by protecting them from liberals who are trying to use them for their own selfish political purposes. Liberals who claim to be helping them with programs that make their situation even worse.

Maybe you should consider going to Church and actually learning something about Christianity.

[avatar4321]

Wanted to try again to get on the topic of the thread because its interesting.




1. Church makes men feel uncomfortable because it emphasizes feminine values

Murrow states that many elements of modern churches—from music to vocabulary to the dress code—emphasize values that are more easily associated with femininity than masculinity. For example, sentimental songs that celebrate the intimacy of relationship with Jesus Christ bring a more feminine style of worship. As Murrow writes, "Think of the mental gymnastics that must take place inside a man’s subconscious mind as he sings lyrics like these. He’s trying to express his love to Jesus, a man who lives today, using words no man would dare say to another, set to music that sounds like the love songs his wife listens to in the car" (139).

A second example of overemphasis on feminine values in the church is a desire for comfort at the expense of risk. Murrow writes in chapter 4, "Velvet Coffin Christianity is the real cancer in the church today. Its key characteristic is comfort. Everyone is so nice to each other. And we choose a church based on how comfortable it makes us feel . . . Men gag on this kind of religion" (27).

Murrow’s reaction against this overemphasis is one of the high points of the book: "Today’s church is all about safety. What’s our top prayer request? ‘God, keep us safe. Keep our kids safe. Watch over us and protect us.’ God’s job is to keep our well-ordered lives flowing smoothly" (162). Churches that focus on their own comfort will cease to attract men, Murrow warns, and churches without men are prone to turn inward, away from their call to change the world.

Comfort is a feminine value? The desire to protect is a feminine value? Seems to me its a natural instinct of a man to want to protect his wife and childre and others he cares about.

Is love a feminine value as well? Ive never seen compassion or love as non-manly. In fact, brotherly love is the epitome of true manly virtue.

What other feminine values does he think Churches are teaching us? Because I hardly see how these are feminine values. What are these manly values that he thinks Churches are neglecting to teach?


2. Church forces men to do things that they find uncomfortable

From asking men to sing in public, to sermons that are longer than the space between television commercials, Murrow showcases elements of church life that are uncomfortable for most unchurched men.

Forgive my language, but any man who is afraid of something like singing is a pussy. What the heck kind of man is he if he cant do something he finds uncomfortable. Work sure as heck isnt comfortable, yet we are expected to do it all the time.

If the Church cant ask us to change our lives, even when its uncomfortable, what is the point of it?


3. Men assume that church will require them to give up masculine traits

Murrow lists a number of men’s misconceptions about what they must give up to become part of a church. They assume church will make them "dorky" and "nerdy"—the equivalent of the evangelical Christian Ned Flanders from the Simpsons cartoon.

What "masculine" traits do religious men give up? As far as I'm concerned, Jesus Christ is the epitome of a man. He is the man. Modeling our lives after him will make us better men, not worse.


4. Church does not present a compelling model of leadership

One assumption that underlies much of Murrow’s thinking on leadership is that "If men are to return to Christ, they need strong, godly laymen to help them in their walk . . . For too long we have asked men to follow our teaching, our methods, and our theology. Men do not follow these things. I’ll say it again: men follow men." It is difficult to argue with the premise that visionary leaders are the source of much change in this world. As a result, Murrow castigates the church for its inability to inspire men to greatness.

This is probably the most valid criticism. Probably more so in protestant/evangelical churches because of the decentralized nature of the Church. But I think its probably existant in all Churches. However, I think that this is because of a failure to adequately teach the principles of the Gospel. Because adherence to the principles creates leaders.

[Abbey Marie]

If you have "studied" Jesus from some clinical, non-believer's pov, you really do not know Him at all. Theology majors are often the most un-Christian Christians.


So basically you’re trying to say that someone who studied a particular subject and knows a lot about it, but doesn't believe in it, shouldn't be able to speak for it? Even when they know more than the person who does believe in it?
That makes a lot of sense dumbfuck.
And I will not leave the "What would Jesus do's" to the right-wing community, because as I explained earlier, right-wingers believe in a warped form of Christianity that does not accurately represent Jesus.

If conservatives are going to continue to use their warped form of Jesus’ beliefs to make talking points, than liberals are going to continuously have to step in and shut them down.

[KarlMarx]

I haven't gone to church in so long it's pathetic. Part of the reason is laziness on my part, but another part is that I don't feel any sense of fellowship with the other parishoners.

Most of the people in the parish I belong to are old ladies and men.

I don't feel any particular fondness for the priest either. I once tried to have a conversation with him (regarding the Rosary) and he simply gave me a terse answer, and turned away.

The church I used to attend is my home parish, but I feel unwelcome there, too. The sad thing is, I feel the same way at any other church I go to.

So, I guess the only church I'm going to is on EWTN.

P.S. Oh yeah, I REFUSE to sing Kumbaya or any of those other sissy hymns that are actually Bob Dylan tunes with different words.

[Said1]

I present Debatepolicy with example #1 on how conservatives misrepresent Christianity to form their politics:


If Jesus were alive today, Jesus would not agree in cutting social programs to help the poor, nor would he agree with invading a country that never harmed us in any way, shape, or form. Calling gay people "queers!" and "fags!" is not what Jesus stood for. Degrading minorities, and making racist statements because of an ethno-centric redneck ignorance would not be condoned Jesus.

The only issues you guys have a fucking leg to stand on with Jesus is abortion, not being having sex with the same sex, and not having sex in general unless your married.

Everything else is your own evil spin on Christianity.

Yo. Jesus was a Capricon, he ate organic foods. He wore sandles too, I bet they weren't berginstocks though. :laugh2: