Monroe Doctrine Gone?

[Kathianne]

Haven't heard much about this in the news:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/11/AR2010121102586.html

Oh goody, thanks to START, we've nothing to fear from Russia:


Venezuela acquires 1,800 antiaircraft missiles from Russia

By Juan Forero
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, December 11, 2010; 6:19 PM

BOGOTA, COLOMBIA -

Russia delivered at least 1,800 shoulder-fired antiaircraft missiles to Venezuela in 2009, U.N. arms control data show, despite vigorous U.S. efforts to stop President Hugo Chavez's stridently anti-American government from acquiring the weapons.

The United States feared that the missiles could be funneled to Marxist guerrillas fighting Colombia's pro-American government or Mexican drug cartels, concerns expressed in U.S. diplomatic cables obtained by WikiLeaks and first reported in the Spanish newspaper El Pais.

It had been unclear how many of the Russian SA-24 missiles were delivered to Venezuela, though the transfer itself was not secret. Chavez showed off a few dozen at a military parade in April 2009, saying they could "deter whatever aerial aggression against our country." A high-level Russian delegation told American officials in Washington in July of that year that 100 of the missiles had been delivered in the first quarter of 2009.

Then earlier this year, Russia reported to the U.N. Register of Conventional Arms, which records the transnational sale of weaponry, that the deal totaled 1,800 missiles.

The U.N. registry did not reveal the model of the delivered weaponry. But the American commander for military forces in Latin America, Air Force Gen. Douglas Fraser, publicly expressed concern this year that Venezuela was purchasing as many as 2,400 of the missiles, also called the IGLA-S. ...

and then there's the Iran-Venezuela nexis. Seems US papers don't want to report this, but German and ME papers are:

http://www.frumforum.com/iran-placing-missiles-in-venezuela

[NightTrain]

Chavez showed off a few dozen at a military parade in April 2009, saying they could "deter whatever aerial aggression against our country."

Apparently little Hugo hasn't been informed about the F-22, F-117, the B2 and Tomahawks.

[Kathianne]

Apparently little Hugo hasn't been informed about the F-22, F-117, the B2 and Tomahawks.

All well and good, if the US plans on defending itself. How likely would you say that is? Seems the administration plans on letting this happen.

[NightTrain]

All well and good, if the US plans on defending itself. How likely would you say that is? Seems the administration plans on letting this happen.

In all fairness, it sounds like they did try to stop this but both Russia and Spain did it anyway, despite evidence that Chavez has been funneling arms and equipment to FARC. Even after FARC was caught with Russian supplies that initially went to Chavez, he denied it and Russia and Spain shrugged it off and continued selling to him.

Looks like we blocked Spanish aircraft sales to Chavez because the aircraft in question had sophisticated American electronics, but they went ahead with selling him naval vessels.

Another reason to exclude Spain from receiving F-35s. IMHO, the only countries that we should allow to receive those are Britain and Israel.

[Kathianne]

In all fairness, it sounds like they did try to stop this but both Russia and Spain did it anyway, despite evidence that Chavez has been funneling arms and equipment to FARC. Even after FARC was caught with Russian supplies that initially went to Chavez, he denied it and Russia and Spain shrugged it off and continued selling to him.

Looks like we blocked Spanish aircraft sales to Chavez because the aircraft in question had sophisticated American electronics, but they went ahead with selling him naval vessels.

Another reason to exclude Spain from receiving F-35s. IMHO, the only countries that we should allow to receive those are Britain and Israel.

I'm more concerned about the sales from Russia and missile deployment by Iran into Venezuela. Even JFK knew better. Potential nuclear weapons are not something that should be allowed in the Americas.

[Thunderknuckles]

We're talking shoulder fired missiles here. They're great for defending against air attacks. What do we have to fear from them unless we plan on attacking Venezuela? :cool:

Now, if the Russains start selling heavy offensive weaponry to Hugo then we can go with the Monroe Doctrine stuff.

As for the Spanish, I think their still pissed at us for supporting the independence of their former colonies in the west. Let them sell Hugo an armada of vessels, we all know how effective they are :p

[NightTrain]

I'm more concerned about the sales from Russia and missile deployment by Iran into Venezuela. Even JFK knew better. Potential nuclear weapons are not something that should be allowed in the Americas.

I agree.

However, the distance from Coro (northern Venezuela) to Miami is 1948 km and the maximum range for Iran's best missile is 1300 to 1500 km.

That's not to say that a small upgrade in missile performance wouldn't be implemented as soon as was possible to reach Florida.

And, if the shit hits the fan, Chavez will be the proud, defiant leader of a large parking lot. There's no way that this new threat would be overlooked at the commencement of hostilities with Iran - which could happen any time.

[Kathianne]

I agree.

However, the distance from Coro (northern Venezuela) to Miami is 1948 km and the maximum range for Iran's best missile is 1300 to 1500 km.

That's not to say that a small upgrade in missile performance wouldn't be implemented as soon as was possible to reach Florida.

And, if the shit hits the fan, Chavez will be the proud, defiant leader of a large parking lot. There's no way that this new threat would be overlooked at the commencement of hostilities with Iran - which could happen any time.

I don't think Israel is going to come to Venezuela. ;)

[NightTrain]

I don't think Israel is going to come to Venezuela. ;)

Maybe I need more coffee, Kathi... I'm not following you?

[Kathianne]

Maybe I need more coffee, Kathi... I'm not following you?

I truly doubt the US is going to do anything about Iran, if any country does move, it would be Israel. Sorry!

[NightTrain]

I truly doubt the US is going to do anything about Iran, if any country does move, it would be Israel. Sorry!

Oh, gotcha.

If Iran has missiles parked in Venezuela, and we suddenly end up engaging in hosilities with Iran, or if Israel takes action against Iran, it'll be up to us to take out any and all of Iranian missiles parked in Venezuela.

That would only be prudent on our part.

[Kathianne]

Oh, gotcha.

If Iran has missiles parked in Venezuela, and we suddenly end up engaging in hosilities with Iran, or if Israel takes action against Iran, it'll be up to us to take out any and all of Iranian missiles parked in Venezuela.

That would only be prudent on our part.

Agree, just don't think the administration would do so.

[fj1200]

Oh, gotcha.

If Iran has missiles parked in Venezuela, and we suddenly end up engaging in hosilities with Iran, or if Israel takes action against Iran, it'll be up to us to take out any and all of Iranian missiles parked in Venezuela.

That would only be prudent on our part.

Umm, is an Iranian sitting down there waiting to pull the trigger on word from Tehran? Or will a Venezuelan pull the trigger because of an alliance between Caracas and Tehran?

Just because they came from Iran doesn't mean we automatically get to take them out.

[SassyLady]

So we sign an agreement (START), and the other party cannot attack us direct so they are selling arms to a third party who might sell the arms to terrorists to be used against us?

:slap:

[NightTrain]

Umm, is an Iranian sitting down there waiting to pull the trigger on word from Tehran? Or will a Venezuelan pull the trigger because of an alliance between Caracas and Tehran?

Just because they came from Iran doesn't mean we automatically get to take them out.

The way I read it is that there will be Iranian military personnel stationed in Venezuela with those medium range missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads.

In a scenario like that, were hostilities to break out, I don't see that we'd have any choice but to take them out. Risks that serious can't be ignored.

[Thunderknuckles]

The original post was in regards to shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles. Did I miss something? I'm honestly asking here because I don't see an issue with it. Is there a link I missed?

[SassyLady]

The original post was in regards to shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles. Did I miss something? I'm honestly asking here because I don't see an issue with it. Is there a link I missed?

I guess I missed the fact that they were shoulder fired. From the article:


According to Die Welt, Venezuela has agreed to allow Iran to establish a military base manned by Iranian missile officers, soldiers of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and Venezuelan missile officers. In addition, Iran has given permission for the missiles to be used in case of an “emergency”. In return, the agreement states that Venezuela can use these facilities for “national needs” – radically increasing the threat to neighbors like Colombia. The German daily claims that according to the agreement, Iranian Shahab 3 (range 1300-1500 km), Scud-B (285-330 km) and Scud-C (300, 500 and 700 km) will be deployed in the proposed base. It says that Iran also pledged to help Venezuela in rocket technology expertise, including intensive training of officers.

I think the threat is that Iran will be using Venezuela as a base from which to attack the US at some point in time.

[Thunderknuckles]

I guess I missed the fact that they were shoulder fired. From the article:



I think the threat is that Iran will be using Venezuela as a base from which to attack the US at some point in time.

Aha! Thank you Sassy. I missed the second link from the original post. If this is the case, then yes, invoke the Monroe Doctrine and shutdown the proposed missile base.

[SassyLady]

Aha! Thank you Sassy. I missed the second link from the original post. If this is the case, then yes, invoke the Monroe Doctrine and shutdown the proposed missile base.

No problemo! :salute:

[Kathianne]

The original post was in regards to shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles. Did I miss something? I'm honestly asking here because I don't see an issue with it. Is there a link I missed?

Russia sold and delivered close to 4k shoulder fired anti-aircraft launchers.
Iran is providing mid-range missiles, capable of handling nuclear warhead. That is my understanding. The info regarding Iran is from Die Weldt and has been covered by The Guardian and in Middle East news. The Iran information has been covered in US, including at the UN.

[fj1200]

The way I read it is that there will be Iranian military personnel stationed in Venezuela with those medium range missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads.

In a scenario like that, were hostilities to break out, I don't see that we'd have any choice but to take them out. Risks that serious can't be ignored.

I guess I don't know where you got that from.

[SassyLady]

I guess I don't know where you got that from.

I read the same thing the article....Iranian personnel will be manning the base.

[Kathianne]

I don't have more confidence in Iranian over Venezuelan or the other way around. I do know that Chavez has a habit of taking over what he wants:

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20101109/business/business2.html

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9JV78G03.htm

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9K5RGVG0.htm

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704447604576007334008965842.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9K796J00.htm

and those are only from this year.

[NightTrain]

I guess I don't know where you got that from.

http://www.frumforum.com/iran-placin...s-in-venezuela


It was in Kathi's OP, at the bottom.

[Gaffer]

I think they could launch an invasion of our southern coast and the current administration would take a month to determine all the legalities of responding.

Basically if iranian forces in Venezuela attack the US then Venezuela will be considered an enemy and attacked the same as the country using their territory. Chavez could find himself in a Noriega type position.

[fj1200]

http://www.frumforum.com/iran-placin...s-in-venezuela


It was in Kathi's OP, at the bottom.

Sorry, missed that one.