View Full Version : Wikileak: The Vaticans attitude towards child rape cases in Ireland.
Another kick in the teeth to victims of abuse, and to anyone who supports this mockery of a "church"
A WikiLeaks cable details the behind-the-scenes diplomacy before Cardinal Seán Brady met Pope Benedict XVI in Rome, after which the pope said he shared the 'outrage, betrayal and shame' of Irish Catholics. Photograph: Tony Gentile/Reuters
Heather Brooke
The Guardian, Sat 11 Dec 2010 00.37 GMT
The Vatican refused to allow its officials to testify before an Irish commission investigating the clerical abuse of children and was angered when they were summoned from Rome, US embassy cables released by WikiLeaks reveal.
Requests for information from the 2009 Murphy commission into sexual and physical abuse by clergy "offended many in the Vatican" who felt that the Irish government had "failed to respect and protect Vatican sovereignty during the investigations", a cable says.
Despite the lack of co-operation from the Vatican, the commission was able to substantiate many of the claims and concluded that some bishops had tried to cover up abuse, putting the interests of the Catholic church ahead of those of the victims. Its report identified 320 people who complained of child sexual abuse between 1975 and 2004 in the Dublin archdiocese.
A cable entitled "Sex abuse scandal strains Irish-Vatican relations, shakes up Irish church, and poses challenges for the Holy See" claimed that Vatican officials also believed Irish opposition politicians were "making political hay" from the situation by publicly urging the government to demand a reply from the Vatican.
Read more - http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/10/wikileaks-vatican-child-sex-abuse-investigation?cat=world&type=article
NightTrain
12-11-2010, 05:33 AM
Another kick in the teeth to victims of abuse, and to anyone who supports this mockery of a "church"
I'm not Catholic. Never have been. And I will say that they've got some serious problems within that organization.
But you saying things like 'this mockery of a "church'" is going to get you nowhere, other than kudos from Pagan or Palin Rider - which doesn't mean much.
I'm not Catholic. Never have been. And I will say that they've got some serious problems within that organization.
But you saying things like 'this mockery of a "church'" is going to get you nowhere, other than kudos from Pagan or Palin Rider - which doesn't mean much.
It's an organization that puts itself above and beyond anything else, including justice for children who have been raped. Now I dunno if that's your idea of what a church is meant to be, but ita certainly not mine, and I doubt it would of been jesus'. And in the same way that he mocked the hypocrites who called themselves 'holy men' back in his day, I see no reason why we should not hold this vile institution to the same standards, do you?
NightTrain
12-11-2010, 08:56 AM
It's an organization that puts itself above and beyond anything else, including justice for children who have been raped. Now I dunno if that's your idea of what a church is meant to be, but ita certainly not mine, and I doubt it would of been jesus'. And in the same way that he mocked the hypocrites who called themselves 'holy men' back in his day, I see no reason why we should not hold this vile institution to the same standards, do you?
No. As I said, there are serious problems in the Catholic Church, some very horrifying ones as we all know. Some people (as in any group) have done very evil things.
However, they have done a great deal of good, and no one can deny that either. For you to condemn the entire organization based on the actions of a minority is painting with a very broad brush indeed.
You, Noir, have a greater capacity than most people I've observed to withhold judgement and prejudice of a group due to the actions of some of their members.
Your atheism drives you to wholly condemn the Catholic organization beyond what you would otherwise do to any other organization were religion removed from the equation.
It's dishonest and you know it.
No. As I said, there are serious problems in the Catholic Church, some very horrifying ones as we all know. Some people (as in any group) have done very evil things.
However, they have done a great deal of good, and no one can deny that either. For you to condemn the entire organization based on the actions of a minority is painting with a very broad brush indeed.
You, Noir, have a greater capacity than most people I've observed to withhold judgement and prejudice of a group due to the actions of some of their members.
Your atheism drives you to wholly condemn the Catholic organization beyond what you would think of any other organization were religion removed from the equation.
It's dishonest and you know it.
I have no doubt there are good people in the church, but the church itself is a smear on humanity.
If I may suggest (if you has the time) you watch the IQ2 debate 'The Catholic Chruch, a force for good?' you will see two of my favoritest people, Christopher Hitchens and Steven Fry, desimate the arguemet that the church is in any way a force for good. And while not wanting to give too much away, the votes taken (one on entry and one after both sides had made their arguments) surprised even me, who was hoping for a good opposition win.
I do not see it as a church in a sense, it's a self interested group, that does whatever it can for money, power and keeping it's own name clean, and allot of well meanig and good people are supporting this vile organization, hopeful some of them will see this, and see what they are supporting.
jimnyc
12-11-2010, 10:38 AM
I have no doubt there are good people in the church, but the church itself is a smear on humanity.
If I may suggest (if you has the time) you watch the IQ2 debate 'The Catholic Chruch, a force for good?' you will see two of my favoritest people, Christopher Hitchens and Steven Fry, desimate the arguemet that the church is in any way a force for good. And while not wanting to give too much away, the votes taken (one on entry and one after both sides had made their arguments) surprised even me, who was hoping for a good opposition win.
I do not see it as a church in a sense, it's a self interested group, that does whatever it can for money, power and keeping it's own name clean, and allot of well meanig and good people are supporting this vile organization, hopeful some of them will see this, and see what they are supporting.
Just like NT said, painting with an awfully broad brush there.
Nonetheless, I'll bet atheists have committed MUCH more heinous crimes. Should I consider YOU vile and a smear on humanity because you support such a "group"?
I'll bet my local church has done more for "humanity" and goodness in general than all atheists held together as one group.
Also, IMO, you ALWAYS just look for reasons to condemn the Catholic Church or Catholics. We get it, you're an atheist and think all of us are nuts for believing in the boogy man - but there's no need for you to continually harp on a group of people you dislike - especially when you KNOW a large portion of this board is Catholics. You say the words like "vile" to purposely offend people, and your denying it will not change my opinion at this point.
Missileman
12-11-2010, 11:23 AM
Just like NT said, painting with an awfully broad brush there.
Nonetheless, I'll bet atheists have committed MUCH more heinous crimes. Should I consider YOU vile and a smear on humanity because you support such a "group"?
I'll bet my local church has done more for "humanity" and goodness in general than all atheists held together as one group.
Also, IMO, you ALWAYS just look for reasons to condemn the Catholic Church or Catholics. We get it, you're an atheist and think all of us are nuts for believing in the boogy man - but there's no need for you to continually harp on a group of people you dislike - especially when you KNOW a large portion of this board is Catholics. You say the words like "vile" to purposely offend people, and your denying it will not change my opinion at this point.
It wasn't those who follow the Catholic faith but those who lead it that engaged in organized cover-up and concealment, and became accomplices to child molestation when they transferred known offenders into fresh hunting grounds. That they put the image of the church ahead of preventing the molestation makes them more than just a little despicable and worthy of condemnation.
jimnyc
12-11-2010, 11:26 AM
It wasn't those who follow the Catholic faith but those who lead it that engaged in organized cover-up and concealment, and became accomplices to child molestation when they transferred known offenders into fresh hunting grounds. That they put the image of the church ahead of preventing the molestation makes them more than just a little despicable and worthy of condemnation.
MORE than worthy of condemnation, and ANYONE who does that shit should be jailed and/or killed IMO.
BUT, that doesn't mean the "Catholic church is vile" or a "smear on humanity" as a result. There are a bunch of INDIVIDUALS within the organization who are vile and/or a smear on humanity - NOT the entire Catholic church.
Missileman
12-11-2010, 11:45 AM
MORE than worthy of condemnation, and ANYONE who does that shit should be jailed and/or killed IMO.
BUT, that doesn't mean the "Catholic church is vile" or a "smear on humanity" as a result. There are a bunch of INDIVIDUALS within the organization who are vile and/or a smear on humanity - NOT the entire Catholic church.
If you think of the Catholic Church as a company with the Pope being the CEO, the Cardinals, Bishops, and priests being the board of directors. managers, and salesmen, and the worshippers as being customers then you get an idea of how I use the term. A great many employees at all levels have been involved in the molestation both directly and indirectly and I'm not so sure that calling the company known as the Catholic Church vile is much of a stretch.
jimnyc
12-11-2010, 12:05 PM
If you think of the Catholic Church as a company with the Pope being the CEO, the Cardinals, Bishops, and priests being the board of directors. managers, and salesmen, and the worshippers as being customers then you get an idea of how I use the term. A great many employees at all levels have been involved in the molestation both directly and indirectly and I'm not so sure that calling the company known as the Catholic Church vile is much of a stretch.
And the USA as a "company" would have the same, and even worse - but is America a smear on humanity or vile? Or would you just hold those who commit the acts to be labeled as such?
Missileman
12-11-2010, 12:15 PM
And the USA as a "company" would have the same, and even worse - but is America a smear on humanity or vile? Or would you just hold those who commit the acts to be labeled as such?
Not only those who commit the act, but everyone involved in the conspiracy to cover-up, conceal, transfer.
We label entire countries with derogatory adjectives all the time on the basis of the actions of the few who comprise their government. NK and Iran...the Axis of Evil...you don't believe that every North Korean and Iranian is evil do you?
KarlMarx
12-11-2010, 12:19 PM
Just like NT said, painting with an awfully broad brush there.
Nonetheless, I'll bet atheists have committed MUCH more heinous crimes. Should I consider YOU vile and a smear on humanity because you support such a "group"?
I'll bet my local church has done more for "humanity" and goodness in general than all atheists held together as one group.
Also, IMO, you ALWAYS just look for reasons to condemn the Catholic Church or Catholics. We get it, you're an atheist and think all of us are nuts for believing in the boogy man - but there's no need for you to continually harp on a group of people you dislike - especially when you KNOW a large portion of this board is Catholics. You say the words like "vile" to purposely offend people, and your denying it will not change my opinion at this point.
As I've posted many times before, atheists have done far more than simply rape children, like wiped out 100 million people or more and continue killing people at an alarming rate, but, of course, some people will whitewash that by claiming that those who did that were motivated by political reasons or something else.
It's interesting that Noir wants to paint the entire Catholic Church as a smear against humanity... but can't use the same measuring rod when it comes to atheists like Josef Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Fidel Castro, Kim Jong Nutcase, Pol Pot, Robert Mugabe.....
jimnyc
12-11-2010, 12:24 PM
Not only those who commit the act, but everyone involved in the conspiracy to cover-up, conceal, transfer.
We label entire countries with derogatory adjectives all the time on the basis of the actions of the few who comprise their government. NK and Iran...the Axis of Evil...you don't believe that every North Korean and Iranian is evil do you?
That's just it, we don't generalize about those countries and their citizens as a whole - we direct our anger towards their governments and/or those who ARE evil. But yes, sometimes we generalize and will make it sound as if we are talking about ALL of them. Now, noir would be doing the same thing here but his history of posting about Catholics leads me to believe he IS condemning as an entirety and not just the "guilty"
And I do believe ANYONE in the Church who commits a crime, conspires, conceals or any thing like that should be prosecuted and "labeled" - but when you state the ENTIRE Church is vile or a smear - then you are labeling MANY MANY MANY more than the few who committed the acts. Those that just go to Church weekly consider themselves to be a part of the Church - and the stupid comments in the OP will insult ANY Catholic who reads it - even the regular Sunday Joe who thinks those who commit crimes should be held accountable and/or put to death. That's how I feel when someone does something to children, but I don't like being lumped into a label of vile and a smear on humanity because of what a few in the Church have done.
jimnyc
12-11-2010, 12:25 PM
As I've posted many times before, atheists have done far more than simply rape children, like wiped out 100 million people or more and continue killing people at an alarming rate, but, of course, some people will whitewash that by claiming that those who did that were motivated by political reasons or something else.
It's interesting that Noir wants to paint the entire Catholic Church as a smear against humanity... but can't use the same measuring rod when it comes to atheists like Josef Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Fidel Castro, Kim Jong Nutcase, Pol Pot, Robert Mugabe.....
That's because of the INTENT. Those people don't post here, so why bother taking little jabs at them from time to time. But by doing so with Catholics, you know you're taking a little stab at MANY members of this board.
Gaffer
12-11-2010, 12:43 PM
Something I have noticed. Noir your from Northern Ireland. Could some of your dislike of catholics be from a dislike of the catholics of your hometown? I tend to get a feeling of an underlying dislike of all catholics based on life experience. I could be wrong but you tend to be much more vehement about catholics than any others including protestants.
Missileman
12-11-2010, 02:02 PM
As I've posted many times before, atheists have done far more than simply rape children, like wiped out 100 million people or more and continue killing people at an alarming rate, but, of course, some people will whitewash that by claiming that those who did that were motivated by political reasons or something else.
If you have evidence that the actions were to further atheism, post it.
Kathianne
12-11-2010, 02:11 PM
If you have evidence that the actions were to further atheism, post it.
and you have evidence that hiding child rapes were to further Catholicism?
Missileman
12-11-2010, 02:18 PM
and you have evidence that hiding child rapes were to further Catholicism?
I made no such claim. Ask yourself however what would motivate what are supposed to be "god-fearing, moral" clergy to conceal and condone child molestation if not the protection of the church which is indirectly the furtherance of Catholicism.
Kathianne
12-11-2010, 02:52 PM
I made no such claim. Ask yourself however what would motivate what are supposed to be "god-fearing, moral" clergy to conceal and condone child molestation if not the protection of the church which is indirectly the furtherance of Catholicism.
Different question, you think that Mao, Stalin, etc., did what they did to destroy what they considered 'good'? They did bad things in order to 'protect' what they saw as a greater good. Do atheists agree with their decisions? I doubt it, yet you are A-ok with the same argument used to tar Catholicism with the broad brush of a very few men's decisions.
KarlMarx
12-11-2010, 04:11 PM
If you have evidence that the actions were to further atheism, post it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution#Destruction_of_antiques.2C_his torical_sites_and_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Soviet_Union_and_Warsaw_ Pact_Countries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Buddhists#Persecution_under_Communi sm
Missileman
12-11-2010, 04:23 PM
Different question, you think that Mao, Stalin, etc., did what they did to destroy what they considered 'good'? They did bad things in order to 'protect' what they saw as a greater good. Do atheists agree with their decisions? I doubt it, yet you are A-ok with the same argument used to tar Catholicism with the broad brush of a very few men's decisions.
Again you accuse me of something I haven't done. I haven't said anything against Catholicism unless the molestation of children is considered a part of the religion.
Mao, Stalin, et al, murdered to further their political ambitions not in the cause of atheism.
Missileman
12-11-2010, 04:32 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution#Destruction_of_antiques.2C_his torical_sites_and_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Soviet_Union_and_Warsaw_ Pact_Countries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Buddhists#Persecution_under_Communi sm
The end goal of what you posted was communism, not atheism. Religion was seen as a roadblock to communism, not a roadblock to atheism.
Kathianne
12-11-2010, 04:34 PM
The end goal of what you posted was communism, not atheism. Religion was seen as a roadblock to communism, not a roadblock to atheism.
Yet, according to Marx, they are intertwined, at the very least that communism begins with atheism.
Pagan
12-11-2010, 05:02 PM
Yet, according to Marx, they are intertwined, at the very least that communism begins with atheism.
Yes and Religion and the State was intertwined with the Empires of Rome, Spanish, Portuguese, Imperial Japan, etc. not to mention some modern day governments.
Kathianne
12-11-2010, 05:08 PM
Yes and Religion and the State was intertwined with the Empires of Rome, Spanish, Portuguese, Imperial Japan, etc. not to mention some modern day governments.
So atheism is a religion. :laugh2:
Pagan
12-11-2010, 05:15 PM
So atheism is a religion. :laugh2:
In a sense I would say loosely say yes, for they claim to know the absolute truth just like any other religion. They just don't whip the people up in a frenzy claiming some divine all powerful invisible being told them they must do it. That and Athiesm has to actually deliver the goods unlike religion where the payoff is after you die, what a racket eh? :laugh2:
Kathianne
12-11-2010, 05:18 PM
In a sense I would say loosely say yes, for they claim to know the absolute truth just like any other religion. They just don't whip the people up in a frenzy claiming some divine all powerful invisible being told them they must do it. That and Athiesm has to actually deliver the goods unlike religion where the payoff is after you die, what a racket eh? :laugh2:
I've met more militant atheists than religious in real life. Actually for the most part even true on message boards.
Pagan
12-11-2010, 05:34 PM
I've met more militant atheists than religious in real life. Actually for the most part even true on message boards.
Take your pick -
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Burning-cross2.jpg
Hutaree -
http://www.northidaho21lightfoot.org/sitebuilder/images/HUTAREE.COM_CCR_Colonial-Christian-Republic-510x375.jpg
Other "Christian Terrorist" militant org's -
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/anti-hate/images/symbol1a.jpg
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/anti-hate/images/symbol10a.jpg
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/anti-hate/images/symbol11a.jpg
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/anti-hate/images/symbol3a.jpg
http://americansfortruth.com/uploads/2007/10/fred_phelps_idiotic_911_message.bmp
http://images.quickblogcast.com/111943-104535/ku_klux_klan.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vADGnqDkynw/S62IVXzlH5I/AAAAAAAABFM/x4tisJ7caX8/s1600/Serbian+Neo-Fascists+Nazi+Chetniks+Draza+Mihailovic+Extremists +Bosnia+2.jpg
There's a shit load of them out there
Kathianne
12-11-2010, 05:50 PM
Take your pick -
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Burning-cross2.jpg
Hutaree -
http://www.northidaho21lightfoot.org/sitebuilder/images/HUTAREE.COM_CCR_Colonial-Christian-Republic-510x375.jpg
Other "Christian Terrorist" militant org's -
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/anti-hate/images/symbol1a.jpg
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/anti-hate/images/symbol10a.jpg
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/anti-hate/images/symbol11a.jpg
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/anti-hate/images/symbol3a.jpg
http://americansfortruth.com/uploads/2007/10/fred_phelps_idiotic_911_message.bmp
http://images.quickblogcast.com/111943-104535/ku_klux_klan.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vADGnqDkynw/S62IVXzlH5I/AAAAAAAABFM/x4tisJ7caX8/s1600/Serbian+Neo-Fascists+Nazi+Chetniks+Draza+Mihailovic+Extremists +Bosnia+2.jpg
There's a shit load of them out there
there are some, no one would argue that. Then again, I know more Christians that condemn them than atheists.
Pagan
12-11-2010, 05:54 PM
there are some, no one would argue that. Then again, I know more Christians that condemn them than atheists.
Well if their philosophy and movement is based on religion and god they really can't be Atheists, can they?
Missileman
12-11-2010, 05:55 PM
there are some, no one would argue that. Then again, I know more Christians that condemn them than atheists.
You know an equal amount of Christians and atheists?
Something I have noticed. Noir your from Northern Ireland. Could some of your dislike of catholics be from a dislike of the catholics of your hometown? I tend to get a feeling of an underlying dislike of all catholics based on life experience. I could be wrong but you tend to be much more vehement about catholics than any others including protestants.
No, personally (though I try to dislike all with an even hand) I dislike Protestants more, a) because they forced there religion onto me when I was a child. b) The DUP, a Protestant polical party, the largest in Nortgern Ireland, plenty of young earth creationists and real extremists in that party, I loath them with a passion, and there's nothing better that when they come to my home town (that are well over 95% White, Middle Class Christians) so I can give them a bit of a rough time rather than the easy rid theyll get for most of the rest of the night.
Just like NT said, painting with an awfully broad brush there.
Nonetheless, I'll bet atheists have committed MUCH more heinous crimes. Should I consider YOU vile and a smear on humanity because you support such a "group"?
I'll bet my local church has done more for "humanity" and goodness in general than all atheists held together as one group.
Also, IMO, you ALWAYS just look for reasons to condemn the Catholic Church or Catholics. We get it, you're an atheist and think all of us are nuts for believing in the boogy man - but there's no need for you to continually harp on a group of people you dislike - especially when you KNOW a large portion of this board is Catholics. You say the words like "vile" to purposely offend people, and your denying it will not change my opinion at this point.
Much more henious than raping children? I can't think of anything worse myself, that is in my opinion the worst a human can do.
Also, as I said, I'm sure many Catholics are good, well meaning people. But that doesn't mean the Institution is. This is an extremely important difference. For example how do you gauge the misery caused by them speaking out against condom use in Africa? Also, a common difference is that most Catholics wouldn't min the idea of their priest being able to marry, but the institution does, that is a very small detail (well, maybe not to the priests or women who want to marry them) but it clearly shows the disconect. How many catholics on the street would agree with the Vatican trying to cover up these cases, and being as unhelpful as possible? People good, institution bad.
Also, i don't care if someone is offended by me calling an institution vile, they have no right not to be offended by anything I say.
Please excuse my language, but WHAT THE FUCK!
Child rapists given legal protection by Ireland after pressure from Vatican.
Ireland caved in to Vatican pressure to grant immunity to church officials in the investigation of decades of sex abuse by its clergy, newly released WikiLeaks documents have shown.
Requests made by the Irish government for information 'offended many in the Vatican' who believed they had 'failed to respect and protect Vatican sovereignty during the investigation'.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337689/Wikileaks-Ireland-granted-immunity-sex-abuse-church-officials-pressure-Vatican.html
Makes you sick.
jimnyc
12-11-2010, 07:18 PM
Also, i don't care if someone is offended by me calling an institution vile, they have no right not to be offended by anything I say.
Well, thanks for at least confirming my post about "intent".
jimnyc
12-11-2010, 07:23 PM
Makes you sick.
Yes, it does, ANY violation at all from the smallest to the worst, against children, is disgusting.
But quite frankly, your consistent obsession Catholics is a different type of "sick". You would think if you disagreed with religion and a deity that you wouldn't be interested at all in religion, but for an atheist you sure do spend a lot of time trying to "bring down" Catholics or consistently try to paint them in a bad light. Maybe my thoughts are for another thread... but it's interesting that you claim to be an equal religion hater but we always end up discussing your issues in threads about Catholics.
Well, thanks for at least confirming my post about "intent".
Get this, people at the Vatican were 'offended' that some of their members were being investigated for child rape and the Irish Goverment asked for there help.
I don't go out of my way to offend, but nor do I hold my tounge because I think that someone will be offended, simple.
jimnyc
12-11-2010, 07:28 PM
Get this, people at the Vatican were 'offended' that some of their members were being investigated for child rape and the Irish Goverment asked for there help.
I don't go out of my way to offend, but nor do I hold my tounge because I think that someone will be offended, simple.
Funny how you hold your tongue about the endless crap going on in Islam and so many other religions, and TONS of crimes being committed by religious groups in your own backyard. But YOUR main interest is the Catholic church.
Yes, it does, ANY violation at all from the smallest to the worst, against children, is disgusting.
But quite frankly, your consistent obsession Catholics is a different type of "sick". You would think if you disagreed with religion and a deity that you wouldn't be interested at all in religion, but for an atheist you sure do spend a lot of time trying to "bring down" Catholics or consistently try to paint them in a bad light. Maybe my thoughts are for another thread... but it's interesting that you claim to be an equal religion hater but we always end up discussing your issues in threads about Catholics.
Lawl, well we've moved from me hating Christians to hating Catholics, I also get told that I pick on Muslims on Islamic forums, such is life I guess.
The fact that the catholic church is the institution caring this out is inconsequential. I would be posting exatly the same if this were happening in a Methodist, evangelical, $cientoligist, or any other group under the sun. It's sick, pure sick, and any org involved in it is vile IMO.
jimnyc
12-11-2010, 07:37 PM
Lawl, well we've moved from me hating Christians to hating Catholics, I also get told that I pick on Muslims on Islamic forums, such is life I guess.
The fact that the catholic church is the institution caring this out is inconsequential. I would be posting exatly the same if this were happening in a Methodist, evangelical, $cientoligist, or any other group under the sun. It's sick, pure sick, and any org involved in it is vile IMO.
I already agreed with you about this particular action. But your history about religion on this board has been like 80% centered on Catholics/Christians (which I may interchange incorrectly, but are mostly the same). And of the 80%, nearly 99% is negative. There are literally DAILY terror attacks by Muslims but not sure if I ever saw you start a thread about that, or the religious fanatics in your own backyard... Yes, the Catholic Church has its share of issues, but if you went by the "Book by Noir) you'd finish reading thinking that they are the ONLY group who has any issues. Is it because there are more Catholics here than any other group? And even if, why not discuss other topics, unless your INTENT is to just piss off the crowd you are posting towards?
Funny how you hold your tongue about the endless crap going on in Islam and so many other religions, and TONS of crimes being committed by religious groups in your own backyard. But YOUR main interest is the Catholic church.
LOLOLOLOL,
Do you want links to Islamic forums that'd I've posted on where I've been perma& for asking questions? (one thing I will say of Christians is you are able to ask probing questions without facing a banhammer) or maybe you want pics & videos of me protesting against $cientologists and debating with them, or maybe audio clips of a 15 minute arguement I had with an Texan born young earth creationist who was doing a tour of the UK, or maybe you want a copy of the emails I sent to our education minister for frocing Protestantism on children from the age of four.
There are aspects of all religions I dislike, some more than others, Catholicism (for the institution) $cientology (again the institution) Protestntism (personal reasons) and Islam (wanting to introduce Sharia) are the worst IMO.
But if you want to believe I have a thing for just Catholics be my guest.
jimnyc
12-11-2010, 07:43 PM
LOLOLOLOL,
Do you want links to Islamic forums that'd I've posted on where I've been perma& for asking questions? (one thing I will say of Christians is you are able to ask probing questions without facing a banhammer) or maybe you want pics & videos of me protesting against $cientologists and debating with them, or maybe audio clips of a 15 minute arguement I had with an Texan born young earth creationist who was doing a tour of the UK, or maybe you want a copy of the emails I sent to our education minister for frocing Protestantism on children from the age of four.
There are aspects of all religions I dislike, some more than others, Catholicism (for the institution) $cientology (again the institution) Protestntism (personal reasons) and Islam (wanting to introduce Sharia) are the worst IMO.
But if you want to believe I have a thing for just Catholics be my guest.
Oh, so you go around to respective forums that have participants of a certain religion and "troll" the religion of choice. Do you think the forums you post at, this one included, are filled with participants that cannot discuss other religions? Or is your intent to be an atheist who wants to rile up those of various beliefs?
Oh, so you go around to respective forums that have participants of a certain religion and "troll" the religion of choice. Do you think the forums you post at, this one included, are filled with participants that cannot discuss other religions? Or is your intent to be an atheist who wants to rile up those of various beliefs?
No, I don't troll, I ask questions, just like I do here, but I have a knack of not giving up, allot of places don't like that, then they just look for a reason to ban me. One Muslim forum banned me because I used the smilie '^__^' in reply to a women, apparently that was "indecent" and warrented a lifetime ban. Another banned me after I'd I was asked if I thought it was respectful that cartoons had been made of Muhammed, when I replied yes, and that I'd done a wee stick man myself install-ban. Such is life, generally I find Muslims are allot easier to debate with face to face, because they can't ban me :lol: best of all when it's in a mosque they don't want to walk away, they have to start asking me to leave, wish on the whole is wonderfully embarrassing for them ^__^
And on the contrary, most Muslim forums I've posted on like to talk heavily about Christianity, and it's ills and evils, this generally lead to me ignoring most of their posts as irrelevant to the topic (which they where)
jimnyc
12-11-2010, 08:01 PM
Well, there certainly won't be any banning here, no matter how much anyone despises what religion or political party.
Any of this crap involving kids DESERVES attention. But it irks me most of the time when some would rather discuss how they feel 'religion is fake' but these same people don't ever even post stories of people DYING daily at the hands of religious fanatics. I'm of the belief that if one truly despised equally, we would probably see them posting at least SOME stories about how the others kill daily, but alas, those stories are pushed aside for the Catholic bashing around here.
Catholic bashing?
Looking through my threads the last one I made (question for the boards Catholics) was on the 19th September, sorry if this is too soon =/ I tend to try and keep topics more general (free will / afterlife / morality) etc so they are inclusive to answers from any and all religions, this is a really random street to of gone down if you think I'm perticularly anti-catholic, but fair enough.
SassyLady
12-11-2010, 08:41 PM
Well, there certainly won't be any banning here, no matter how much anyone despises what religion or political party.
Any of this crap involving kids DESERVES attention. But it irks me most of the time when some would rather discuss how they feel 'religion is fake' but these same people don't ever even post stories of people DYING daily at the hands of religious fanatics. I'm of the belief that if one truly despised equally, we would probably see them posting at least SOME stories about how the others kill daily, but alas, those stories are pushed aside for the Catholic bashing around here.
There are pedophiles and perverts in every religion....I think the enormous size of the Catholic religion across the world creates a larger pool of people to become perverts....probably the same percentage as in other religions.....or other walks of life.
To get more offended because it's a Catholic priest than if it was the local janitor is hypocrisy. It's offensive and should be punished with severity no matter who they are.
There are pedophiles and perverts in every religion....I think the enormous size of the Catholic religion across the world creates a larger pool of people to become perverts....probably the same percentage as in other religions.....or other walks of life.
To get more offended because it's a Catholic priest than if it was the local janitor is hypocrisy. It's offensive and should be punished with severity no matter who they are.
Exactly, Te problem is that the institution is protecting these people.
Using your example, if say a ring of janitors in a school where raping children, and the school board knew about it, tried to hide it, and when it finally did come out they (secretly) lobbied on behalf of the janitors and made sure they were immue from the process of law, and that they where offened that the police had got involved in the matter. Just try and imagine that.
I don't care that these people where catholic, it is the institution that is going out of it's way to protect these rapists that I have a problem with. As should anyone.
SassyLady
12-11-2010, 09:26 PM
Exactly, Te problem is that the institution is protecting these people.
Using your example, if say a ring of janitors in a school where raping children, and the school board knew about it, tried to hide it, and when it finally did come out they (secretly) lobbied on behalf of the janitors and made sure they were immue from the process of law, and that they where offened that the police had got involved in the matter. Just try and imagine that.
I don't care that these people where catholic, it is the institution that is going out of it's way to protect these rapists that I have a problem with. As should anyone.
It's not usually the institution that makes the offense public, and no matter what the institution, they will try and keep it under wraps. Hard to do with larger institutions ... usually more victims, thus more publicity.
Don't get me wrong ... I'm not defending the Catholic church ... just that the outrage should extend beyond the church and to all religions and institutions.....including governments.
It's not usually the institution that makes the offense public, and no matter what the institution, they will try and keep it under wraps. Hard to do with larger institutions ... usually more victims, thus more publicity.
Don't get me wrong ... I'm not defending the Catholic church ... just that the outrage should extend beyond the church and to all religions and institutions.....including governments.
Exactly, but rather than bashing the vile organization for it's vile dealngs, posts are instead spent talking about the way I pick on Catholics too much >,>
In any end, the Irish government should be ashamed, I can't wait to find out who was on the panel that a-okay'd immunity for those rapist scum.
KarlMarx
12-12-2010, 08:16 AM
The end goal of what you posted was communism, not atheism. Religion was seen as a roadblock to communism, not a roadblock to atheism.
Oi vey, MM.... you seem to refuse to admit the obvious...
Missileman
12-12-2010, 10:07 AM
Oi vey, MM.... you seem to refuse to admit the obvious...
They could have cared less about religion except that it stood in the way of their goal of a communist society...a goal which necessarily included devotion to the state, not a deity.
jimnyc
12-12-2010, 10:22 AM
Exactly, but rather than bashing the vile organization for it's vile dealngs, posts are instead spent talking about the way I pick on Catholics too much >,>
No, and I even did in fact respond to the OP as I went along. But I don't think it's unfair to point out that the entire organization, which would include parishioners, are the detestable terms you used.
And I find it detestable that Ireland as a whole would be low enough of scumbags to allow this shit to happen and assist in any coverup. You are some seriously sick people over there too!
No, and I even did in fact respond to the OP as I went along. But I don't think it's unfair to point out that the entire organization, which would include parishioners, are the detestable terms you used.
Right, if you can't blame or criticize an organization without blaming everyone who's connected to it, fair enough, but I can.
[/quote]And I find it detestable that Ireland as a whole would be low enough of scumbags to allow this shit to happen and assist in any coverup. You are some seriously sick people over there too![/QUOTE]
Whoever made the descisions are sick IMO, that's why I cant wait to find out who they are. And as an aside "you are some seriously sick people" I am not Irish, ergo "you" doesnt really work, just sayin.
jimnyc
12-12-2010, 11:14 AM
Right, if you can't blame or criticize an organization without blaming everyone who's connected to it, fair enough, but I can.
Some of us are intelligent enough to articulate a sentence/paragraph to where we apply the blame where it belongs instead of insulting an entire group of people.
Whoever made the descisions are sick IMO, that's why I cant wait to find out who they are. And as an aside "you are some seriously sick people" I am not Irish, ergo "you" doesnt really work, just sayin.
Either way, the point was made. You want to lay a larger blame than just those involved, IMO, just to piss off the members who post here.
Deny if you like, but your posting history here shows otherwise. I'm not very active, so I'm not that insulted, but I'm confident you are insulting a large group of members on this board because of the way you paint with your brush.
Some of us are intelligent enough to articulate a sentence/paragraph to where we apply the blame where it belongs instead of insulting an entire group of people.
Sorry I'm not intelligent enough, though you can't say I didn't try in my own stupid way...
It's an organization that...
I have no doubt there are good people in the church, but the church itself is a smear on humanity.
Also, as I said, I'm sure many Catholics are good, well meaning people. But that doesn't mean the Institution is. This is an extremely important difference.
I don't care that these people where catholic, it is the institution
I swear I tried >,<
Either way, the point was made. You want to lay a larger blame than just those involved, IMO, just to piss off the members who post here.
Deny if you like, but your posting history here shows otherwise. I'm not very active, so I'm not that insulted, but I'm confident you are insulting a large group of members on this board because of the way you paint with your brush.
Lawl, fair enough, as a wise man once said 'if evreryone thinks you're picking just on them, you're doing a good job'
jimnyc
12-12-2010, 12:20 PM
Lawl, fair enough, as a wise man once said 'if evreryone thinks you're picking just on them, you're doing a good job'
Or it could mean you're trolling, just sayin'
I know you're far from a troll in 95% of your participation here, but I do think you troll to an extent on issues dealing with Christians/Catholics. That's just my humble opinion, and I would think otherwise if I saw you post stuff condemning other religions, including those that are killing in the name of their religion while you argue Catholic verses and the like.
Moving on, I honestly didn't mean to ruin a good Wikileaks thread over this, but like I said earlier, Church or not, ANYONE caught doing such things to children or those that assist them in covering it up, should all be sent to jail for life or executed. That much I agree with you about, Noir, is that there isn't many crimes I can think of worse than abusing a child.
Or it could mean you're trolling, just sayin'
And the fact that you just ignored a huge section of my post with quotes from the past several pages showing I was attacking the institution for protecting child rapists and not every living catholic, whom i described as in most cases good and well meaning.
know you're far from a troll in 95% of your participation here, but I do think you troll to an extent on issues dealing with Christians/Catholics. That's just my humble opinion, and I would think otherwise if I saw you post stuff condemning other religions, including those that are killing in the name of their religion while you argue Catholic verses and the like.
Moving on, I honestly didn't mean to ruin a good Wikileaks thread over this, but like I said earlier, Church or not, ANYONE caught doing such things to children or those that assist them in covering it up, should all be sent to jail for life or executed. That much I agree with you about, Noir, is that there isn't many crimes I can think of worse than abusing a child.
in bold- my thoughts exactly, and the reason why I posted this thread, you just happened to get carried away with the fact that this time the institution protecting these rapists are the catholic church and then went off on one about how I always pick on them =/
Kathianne
12-12-2010, 03:09 PM
And the fact that you just ignored a huge section of my post with quotes from the past several pages showing I was attacking the institution for protecting child rapists and not every living catholic, whom i described as in most cases good and well meaning.
in bold- my thoughts exactly, and the reason why I posted this thread, you just happened to get carried away with the fact that this time the institution protecting these rapists are the catholic church and then went off on one about how I always pick on them =/
No, you didn't say 'most.' You said, 'I'm sure some...'
Noir, you definitely over time have demonstrated a strong personal animosity towards Catholics and the Church. You have every right in the US, not so sure about UK hate laws. ;)
It colors my perception of you every bit as much as a anti-Semite or anti-Black poster would be colored. (I guess pun intended.)
No, you didn't say 'most.' You said, 'I'm sure some...'
I said "Also, as I said, I'm sure many Catholics are good, well meaning people. But that doesn't mean the Institution is. This is an extremely important difference." Many and most are somewhat interchangeable. In any end if I've ever said 'a few' or 'some' I was wring in saying that and should of said 'many/most'
Noir, you definitely over time have demonstrated a strong personal animosity towards Catholics and the Church. You have every right in the US, not so sure about UK hate laws. ;)
It colors my perception of you every bit as much as a anti-Semite or anti-Black poster would be colored. (I guess pun intended.)
I'm amazed, I make a post about an organization and go out of my way to say I'm not talking about the regular catholic on the street and no one sees that, truly amazed! And to equate it to being a racist or so forth is just the icing on the cake.
Kathianne
12-12-2010, 03:47 PM
I said "Also, as I said, I'm sure many Catholics are good, well meaning people. But that doesn't mean the Institution is. This is an extremely important difference." Many and most are somewhat interchangeable. In any end if I've ever said 'a few' or 'some' I was wring in saying that and should of said 'many/most'
the reason I didn't use quote marks, it was the gist...
I'm amazed, I make a post about an organization and go out of my way to say I'm not talking about the regular catholic on the street and no one sees that, truly amazed! And to equate it to being a racist or so forth is just the icing on the cake.
and with your own words they will condemn you. Well in this case in my pov, not condemn, but color. I do think you HATE Catholics.
NightTrain
12-12-2010, 03:58 PM
I'm amazed, I make a post about an organization and go out of my way to say I'm not talking about the regular catholic on the street and no one sees that, truly amazed! And to equate it to being a racist or so forth is just the icing on the cake.
It's the way you worded it, and you did it deliberately.
I pointed it out to you as soon as you made this thread but you forged ahead.
I don't know why you're acting surprised about the reactions.
the reason I didn't use quote marks, it was the gist...
This is idiocy of the highest order, you mean you did not quote what I said ("many") instead you chose to paraphrase that yourself into the word "some". Seriously kath, that is a joke.
and with your own words they will condemn you. Well in this case in my pov, not condemn, but color. I do think you HATE Catholics.
but will they really be "my own words" or will they be the words that you substitute in to try and get the 'gist' of what I'm saying, even if those words happen to mean the opposite of the ones I used =/
Think what you will, I know I don't, and once again I'll state that this thread was an attacked against the institution, not the people.
It's the way you worded it, and you did it deliberately.
I pointed it out to you as soon as you made this thread but you forged ahead.
I don't know why you're acting surprised about the reactions.
So I'm not to call an institution "vile" etc when they are clearly covering up cases of child rape, what words do you suggest I use? How would you of worded the OP or replied in subsequent posts to say that you are attacking the institution and not the people (and keep in mind that using phrases like 'this is about the institution, not the people' doesn't work, I've already tried that.)
Kathianne
12-12-2010, 04:08 PM
This is idiocy of the highest order, you mean you did not quote what I said ("many") instead you chose to paraphrase that yourself into the word "some". Seriously kath, that is a joke.
but will they really be "my own words" or will they be the words that you substitute in to try and get the 'gist' of what I'm saying, even if those words happen to mean the opposite of the ones I used =/
Think what you will, I know I don't, and once again I'll state that this thread was an attacked against the institution, not the people.
Sorry Noir, I chose not to go back to all your posts, but had the 'gist' you wish to discard. That's the reason for not using quotes, which is the norm in both journalism and academia.
Your prejudice shines through, no matter how many srsly or lwrly you use. You hate Catholics, now that it's a known quality, everyone can accommodate that in your posts on such.
jimnyc
12-12-2010, 04:15 PM
So I'm not to call an institution "vile" etc when they are clearly covering up cases of child rape, what words do you suggest I use? How would you of worded the OP or replied in subsequent posts to say that you are attacking the institution and not the people (and keep in mind that using phrases like 'this is about the institution, not the people' doesn't work, I've already tried that.)
Noir, I think everyone will agree with you on this particular subject. And I can't speak for Kath or the others, but it's your posts in total about Catholics that shine through as you despise/hate them. Then when you get to a legit complaint, it still looks like "Noir whining about Catholics" when it should be look at as a heinous crime by a few nitwits within the church and covered up by a few nitwits in the Irish government.
Sorry Noir, I chose not to go back to all your posts, but had the 'gist' you wish to discard. That's the reason for not using quotes, which is the norm in both journalism and academia.
Your prejudice shines through, no matter how many srsly or lwrly you use. You hate Catholics, now that it's a known quality, everyone can accommodate that in your posts on such.
You had the 'gist'? I want to know where this 'gist' came from, I clearly used the word 'many' you would of rathered (for your arguement) that I used the word 'some' so you just said 'some' and hoped t would stick. That's allota respect lost for you kathi (though I hope you don't care, because you shouldnt.)
As fir the rest this is getting very boring, so again I'll leave that with a 'think what you will'.
Kathianne
12-12-2010, 04:20 PM
You had the 'gist'? I want to know where this 'gist' came from, I clearly used the word 'many' you would of rathered (for your arguement) that I used the word 'some' so you just said 'some' and hoped t would stick. That's allota respect lost for you kathi (though I hope you don't care, because you shouldnt.)
As fir the rest this is getting very boring, so again I'll leave that with a 'think what you will'.
Right you are. I'll not lose a wink, nor do I think you will on the nature of your posts. That's the thing about honest posts.
jimnyc
12-12-2010, 04:23 PM
As fir the rest this is getting very boring, so again I'll leave that with a 'think what you will'.
Dude, don't think I dislike you or anything like that as a result. I simply meant to point out that I thought you were highly biased against Catholics and it just snowballed from there. If you're not, so be it, then I apologize. But that's been my perception for a helluva lot longer than today and this thread.
Noir, I think everyone will agree with you on this particular subject. And I can't speak for Kath or the others, but it's your posts in total about Catholics that shine through as you despise/hate them. Then when you get to a legit complaint, it still looks like "Noir whining about Catholics" when it should be look at as a heinous crime by a few nitwits within the church and covered up by a few nitwits in the Irish government.
How many times do I have to say it's the Bloomin institution NOT ALL CATHOLICS. Can no one understand those words? Does no one care that I keep saying it's not the people. Again and again I say it, again and again the same replies. I hate the institution because it does things like it has in the OP. I do not hate the people that chose to he catholic though I do have disagreements with them on meta-physical grounds etc. But that has NOTHING to do with this thread.
It wouldn't of mattered if the institution in the Wikileak was a protestant church, or a Hindu one, or McDonalds or Kelloggs etc. Any institution involved in this would of got an OP from me, The fact that this was catholic institution was not important and so inconsequential. Unless ofcourse you're not me, inwhich case the fact that Catholics are beig discussed becomes the prime issue >,>
Right you are. I'll not lose a wink, nor do I think you will on the nature of your posts. That's the thing about honest posts.
Are you going to explain how you arrived at your 'gist' even though it was in direct opposition to the words I actually used?
Kathianne
12-12-2010, 04:41 PM
Are you going to explain how you arrived at your 'gist' even though it was in direct opposition to the words I actually used?
By your own posts, Noir, opposite? Not by a long shot. You might think so, as a progressive, but truth will out.
By your own posts, Noir, opposite? Not by a long shot. You might think so, as a progressive, but truth will out.
By my own posts, even though I can quote exactly what I said in my own posts. Hm.
Also, I would consider the words "many" and "some" to be pretty close to opposite, thought obviously that's just the progressive in me =/ surly you must agree that 'many people' and 'some people' are two totally different terms with very different meanings (unlike say 'many people' and 'most people' which are still different bug somewhat similar)
Dude, don't think I dislike you or anything like that as a result. I simply meant to point out that I thought you were highly biased against Catholics and it just snowballed from there. If you're not, so be it, then I apologize. But that's been my perception for a helluva lot longer than today and this thread.
No worries, I don't dislike any of y'all, and certainly not over random nonsense like this, though I may be questioning the ability of some (or is that most, kath?) of yas to read :laugh:
Kathianne
12-12-2010, 05:20 PM
By my own posts, even though I can quote exactly what I said in my own posts. Hm.
Also, I would consider the words "many" and "some" to be pretty close to opposite, thought obviously that's just the progressive in me =/ surly you must agree that 'many people' and 'some people' are two totally different terms with very different meanings (unlike say 'many people' and 'most people' which are still different bug somewhat similar)
Spin as you like, I'm not commenting.
Spin as you like, I'm not commenting.
Quoting my own words, word-for-word is spinning? :laugh: I don't know what you've been drinking tonight, but it should probably be illegal. Anyways I've asked you a few times now so let's just leave it at that bsfore it gets embrassing.
Back to the issue at hand, what on earth does the Irish state think it's doing protesting rapsists!
Abbey Marie
12-15-2010, 12:59 PM
There are pedophiles and perverts in every religion....I think the enormous size of the Catholic religion across the world creates a larger pool of people to become perverts....probably the same percentage as in other religions.....or other walks of life.
To get more offended because it's a Catholic priest than if it was the local janitor is hypocrisy. It's offensive and should be punished with severity no matter who they are.
And the fact that the no-marriage rule makes it the perfect place for gay pedophiles to stay on the down low. Tends to up the percentages a bit.
Abbey Marie
12-15-2010, 01:07 PM
So I'm not to call an institution "vile" etc when they are clearly covering up cases of child rape, what words do you suggest I use? How would you of worded the OP or replied in subsequent posts to say that you are attacking the institution and not the people (and keep in mind that using phrases like 'this is about the institution, not the people' doesn't work, I've already tried that.)
I think you are deliberately missing the point, though Jim and a few others have repeatedly made it quite clearly: It's not just what you wrote here. It is your overall, repeated, and cumulative posting against Christian denominations and the Christian faith, that mark you as a strikingly biased and agenda-driven Christianphobic. Capice?
I think you are deliberately missing the point, though Jim and a few others have repeatedly made it quite clearly: It's not just what you wrote here. It is your overall, repeated, and cumulative posting against Christian denominations and the Christian faith, that mark you as a strikingly biased and agenda-driven Christianphobic. Capice?
Yeah, because my topic I made directly for Christians was in, er, September?
Abbey Marie
12-15-2010, 01:30 PM
Yeah, because my topic I made directly for Christians was in, er, September?
In a country where approx. 85% of the people identify as Christians, all of your anti-faith posts are in essence, anti-Christian. And surely you will not deny making oodles of those?
In a country where approx. 85% of the people identify as Christians, all of your anti-faith posts are in essence, anti-Christian. And surely you will not deny making oodles of those?
:lol:
So anything I post about the meta-physical or theological that is not pro-Christian is anti-chritsian, if that's what you *want* to believe of me then fair enough, heck here's some quotes you can use if you like;
I''m Noir and I hate chirtsians the mostest.
Sometimes I think all religions are just different ways to control and manipulate people, then I remember that it's only the Christians ones that do.
The pope is a fool.
If I make a post that seems to ask questions of all religions, they are not, they are for one religion and one religion only, Christianity, the rest are cool in my book, it's just those pesky chirstians I have a problem with.
Please note my tounge was firmly in cheek when all of these quotes were typed. Not that that will stop some people talking then seriously...
Abbey Marie
12-15-2010, 04:51 PM
:lol:
So anything I post about the meta-physical or theological that is not pro-Christian is anti-chritsian, if that's what you *want* to believe of me then fair enough, heck here's some quotes you can use if you like;
I''m Noir and I hate chirtsians the mostest.
Sometimes I think all religions are just different ways to control and manipulate people, then I remember that it's only the Christians ones that do.
The pope is a fool.
If I make a post that seems to ask questions of all religions, they are not, they are for one religion and one religion only, Christianity, the rest are cool in my book, it's just those pesky chirstians I have a problem with.
Please note my tounge was firmly in cheek when all of these quotes were typed. Not that that will stop some people talking then seriously...
Well, anyway, as a Christian, it is my duty to forgive you and love you as myself. :cool:
Well, anyway, as a Christian, it is my duty to forgive you and love you as myself. :cool:
Indeed, one of the worst of all 'Christian' traits, 'love your enemies' though ofcousre everyone knows how stupid it is, which is why it's so selectively used, showing those who use it to be far from impartial when applying it. but no matter, good luck loving your enemies while I'm busy destroying mine ^_^
Abbey Marie
12-15-2010, 10:10 PM
Indeed, one of the worst of all 'Christian' traits, 'love your enemies' though ofcousre everyone knows how stupid it is, which is why it's so selectively used, showing those who use it to be far from impartial when applying it. but no matter, good luck loving your enemies while I'm busy destroying mine ^_^
If you say so. [shakes head and wonders how Noir got so off course]
Indeed, one of the worst of all 'Christian' traits, 'love your enemies' though ofcousre everyone knows how stupid it is, which is why it's so selectively used, showing those who use it to be far from impartial when applying it. but no matter, good luck loving your enemies while I'm busy destroying mine ^_^
Forgive your enemies and you will receive forgiveness
Noir at one point in my life I tried to destroy my enemies also, you will never win that battle, brother try reading the Bible with a open mind maybe it would help you understand better
If you say so. [shakes head and wonders how Noir got so off course]
How I got so ofcourse? Lol, you're the one that *loves* the scum in the OP who have been raping children, no? You're the on that has to love the 9/11 terrorists, you're the one that has to love everyone and anyone no matter how sick they are. Tell me, what's it like loving child rapists? cus I think that's more 'off course' than I could ever go.
Forgive your enemies and you will receive forgiveness
Noir at one point in my life I tried to destroy my enemies also, you will never win that battle, brother try reading the Bible with a open mind maybe it would help you understand better
No. If there is some god and the only way he'll forgive me is if I go all softly softly on child rapists then I don't want that gods forgiveness.
Maybe you've given up on hating child rapists, and now forgive and love them, but my mind will never be that *open*. Thanks.
jimnyc
12-16-2010, 08:13 AM
No. If there is some god and the only way he'll forgive me is if I go all softly softly on child rapists then I don't want that gods forgiveness.
Maybe you've given up on hating child rapists, and now forgive and love them, but my mind will never be that *open*. Thanks.
Where did anyone state that you must forgive and go softly on child rapists? Or are you just making shit up for effect again?
Where did anyone state that you must forgive and go softly on child rapists? Or are you just making shit up for effect again?
Well Jeff said "forgive your enemies" that would imply forgiving, no?
jimnyc
12-16-2010, 08:39 AM
Well Jeff said "forgive your enemies" that would imply forgiving, no?
So no one actually said anything about forgiving rapists as you wrote. Check!
And if it states as much in the bible, and by members here - do you TRULY believe we all forgive and love Bin Laden? NO
You used something that was NEVER stated simply for effect.
So no one actually said anything about forgiving rapists as you wrote. Check!
And if it states as much in the bible, and by members here - do you TRULY believe we all forgive and love Bin Laden? NO
You used something that was NEVER stated simply for effect.
Lol.
So I say that child rapists are my enemies.
Someone says 'forgive your enemies'
And I'm wrong to think they're talking about tye child rapists? Hm....
I guess we'll just have to wait till Jeff comes back online,
Why shouldn't a Christian forgive Bin Laden? That's why I said it's one of the worst of all Christian traits, loving your enemies, a truly sick concept.
jimnyc
12-16-2010, 09:10 AM
Lol.
So I say that child rapists are my enemies.
Someone says 'forgive your enemies'
And I'm wrong to think they're talking about tye child rapists? Hm....
I guess we'll just have to wait till Jeff comes back online,
Why shouldn't a Christian forgive Bin Laden? That's why I said it's one of the worst of all Christian traits, loving your enemies, a truly sick concept.
I know, you've told us already about how sick and vile Christians can be. But what you haven't told us is WHO spoke the words you claim. I looked the thread over and over and can't seem to locate it.
I'll GUARANTEE you that NOT ONE person will state they side with and/or should forgive a) a child rapist or b) Bin Laden
You have taken what people wrote, and what is written in the Bible, to stretch it and make people look dumb. The only dumb one here is you for trying to do so.
Abbey stated it about YOU and Jeff quoted a post of yours where you condemned the "trait". NEITHER ONE stated anything at all about what you claim they did.
CONTEXT, you need to learn it. If one says 'Love thy enemy" - That doesn't automatically qualify every degenerate human being on the planet. But I forgot YOU were the expert in the Bible and Christian/Catholic teachings.
I know, you've told us already about how sick and vile Christians can be. But what you haven't told us is WHO spoke the words you claim. I looked the thread over and over and can't seem to locate it.
Well, most Christians are not sick or vile, which was why I said to abbey that those who preach the 'love your enemies as yourself' mantra expose themselves as hypocrites. Because you'd have to be sick to love a child rapist.
I'll GUARANTEE you that NOT ONE person will state they side with and/or should forgive a) a child rapist or b) Bin Laden
Which makes a mockery of 'forgive your enemies', because it's not 'forgive your enemies unless...' would you not agree?
You have taken what people wrote, and what is written in the Bible, to stretch it and make people look dumb. The only dumb one here is you for trying to do so.
So how do you decide what enemies are worthy of forgiveness?
Abbey stated it about YOU and Jeff quoted a post of yours where you condemned the "trait". NEITHER ONE stated anything at all about what you claim they did.
CONTEXT, you need to learn it. If one says 'Love thy enemy" - That doesn't automatically qualify every degenerate human being on the planet. But I forgot YOU were the expert in the Bible and Christian/Catholic teachings.
Well I've laid out my stall pretty clearly on who my enemies are, and still been told to forgive.
So, I'll put this here for any christian, preferably Jeff or Abbey as they've brought it up already, but please provide a list of 'enemies' that a christian does not have to forgive and how you arrived at that list.
jimnyc
12-16-2010, 09:37 AM
I guess I'm a hypocrite if I choose to "love" people I fight or argue with in my life - but also choose NOT to love or forgive rapists or terrorists.
Noir, face it, you're just once again trying to stir shit with Catholics/Christians by playing games with words and stretching what people say into what YOU want it to say.
I'm done with you and am perplexed why the others bother. You're not trying to learn, you're solely trying to argue and poke fun.
I guess I'm a hypocrite if I choose to "love" people I fight or argue with in my life - but also choose NOT to love or forgive rapists or terrorists.
Noir, face it, you're just once again trying to stir shit with Catholics/Christians by playing games with words and stretching what people say into what YOU want it to say.
I'm done with you and am perplexed why the others bother. You're not trying to learn, you're solely trying to argue and poke fun.
Anyone who says we should live by a catagorical imperative (like love your enemies) and makes exceptions to that rule because of personal thoughts or feelings is a hypocrite. It's a pretty simple concept.
I did not force Jeff to say "Forgive your enemies" did I? No twisting or poking fun, those are the words he used. Now I assume he considers child rapists enemies (I know I certainly do) which makes that matra one that anyone of a decent moral fibre can not live by.
No. If there is some god and the only way he'll forgive me is if I go all softly softly on child rapists then I don't want that gods forgiveness.
Maybe you've given up on hating child rapists, and now forgive and love them, but my mind will never be that *open*. Thanks.
I hear ya Noir , but no I never said I thought what they do is ok, what I am saying is it is my job to forgive( that would be a very hard job for me) but the child rapist still has to live by the law of the land, if his crime was punishable by death ( which I think it should be) then I can forgive him all I want but he still dies, then he will stand before God and that is where it matters
Well Jeff said "forgive your enemies" that would imply forgiving, no?
You are right Noir, a good Christian does forgive his enemies ( as I said I am having a hard time with that) but as I said that doesn't mean the person doesn't get punished and his worst punishment will come when he stands before God, nobody but him and God will be there unless he believes in God and Jesus was put on this earth to die for our sins, that is the only way to get into heaven . See Noir it isn't up to us to be vigilantes that person has to pay for what he did the answer to God
I hear ya Noir , but no I never said I thought what they do is ok, what I am saying is it is my job to forgive( that would be a very hard job for me) but the child rapist still has to live by the law of the land, if his crime was punishable by death ( which I think it should be) then I can forgive him all I want but he still dies, then he will stand before God and that is where it matters
So just to make sure this is as an unmudded lake, you think that I should forgive a child rapist for being a child rapist.
So no one actually said anything about forgiving rapists as you wrote. Check!
And if it states as much in the bible, and by members here - do you TRULY believe we all forgive and love Bin Laden? NO
You used something that was NEVER stated simply for effect.
Jim we had a sermon about the terrorist just a few weeks ago, yes we should forgive them ( I know it is next to impossible to do ) but they still must live by the law of the land , with that said if they had survived they would of been put to death, then they must stand in front of God ( unless they are right with God this wont be a good meeting for them, and if they were right they wouldn't be breaking the commandments) so god will then punish them for eternity
Anyone who says we should live by a catagorical imperative (like love your enemies) and makes exceptions to that rule because of personal thoughts or feelings is a hypocrite. It's a pretty simple concept.
I did not force Jeff to say "Forgive your enemies" did I? No twisting or poking fun, those are the words he used. Now I assume he considers child rapists enemies (I know I certainly do) which makes that matra one that anyone of a decent moral fibre can not live by.
Noir if I remember correctly you had told me you read the bible, apparently you didn't comprehend what you read, as I told you it is a tuff read, and so you know I didn't just throw out my thoughts it is in the bible, and lets face it Noir the whooping you may give the guy is nothing to the punishment God will give him
See Noir if I believed as you do yes there is no forgiveness because there is no eternal life once dead you are at the end of the line, so that would be the ultimate punishment , Christians believe when you die you will stand before God and if your heart is right Jesus will step up and tell God I got this one, and you will live in paradise for eternity
The Bible tells you there is only one way to get to heaven and that is to truly believe in God and that he sent his only son (Jesus) to earth to die for us sinners so we may live in heaven for eternity
The Bible also says that forgiveness is to be given and in return you will be forgiven
Know as I said I have a real hard time forgiving terrorist and the likes of them, IMO I will get into heaven feeling this way but to be truly forgiven for all my sins I must forgive those who have sinned against me
In the Book of Mathews chapter 6 verse 14 thru 16
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins
So just to make sure this is as an unmudded lake, you think that I should forgive a child rapist for being a child rapist.
It is what the Bible tells you to do Noir, as I have stated this is very hard for me but if you understand the bible that rapist is being punished way worse than a gang of Bikers could of done to him
Furthermore Noir you are a very intelligent young man, I have seen where other posters are basally saying you are trolling, I disagree, see Noir as bright as you are you wouldn't troll, please forgive me if I am wrong cause this is just my opinion, but I have to wonder if you aren't intrigued by the whole Christianity thing, some ppl are afraid of what they can't touch but still are intrigued, again this is JMO but if it is the case pm me and I will try and answer any questions you have
You are right Noir, a good Christian does forgive his enemies ( as I said I am having a hard time with that) but as I said that doesn't mean the person doesn't get punished and his worst punishment will come when he stands before God, nobody but him and God will be there unless he believes in God and Jesus was put on this earth to die for our sins, that is the only way to get into heaven . See Noir it isn't up to us to be vigilantes that person has to pay for what he did the answer to God
and therein is why I could never be a "good Christian", child rapists do not deserve my forgiveness, nor anyones. If that makes me "bad" then I'm bad to the bone and proud of it.
It is what the Bible tells you to do Noir, as I have stated this is very hard for me but if you understand the bible that rapist is being punished way worse than a gang of Bikers could of done to him
Who said anything about bikers? They should be subject to the due process of law, and at no point does that require forgiveness.
Who said anything about bikers? They should be subject to the due process of law, and at no point does that require forgiveness.
Noir for such a smart kid you sure try and act other wise at times, bikers have been taking care of pedophiles for years, I brought that up to go to the far extreme and yes you are exactly right the law should take care of it, and you are also right for a kid that is so lost forgiveness is never required
So this leaves me with funny feelings, obviously I was wrong in thinking you may want to learn about Christianity , so one has to wonder if you truly wish to be a atheist why comment on what others believe, to just pick fun, funny thing is I am not making things up I gave you the book and even the verse in the bible where you could find it, Furthermore you told me you have read the Bible, but apparently didn't comprehend anything, so much for me thing you are such a bright kid
See Noir we all believe what we believe and nope I don't have a right to make you believe what I do, but it is my Job as a Christian to try, that is the Christian way, I have to wonder what the atheist way is,to slam what ya don't understand ? With what I just said it is easy to see what is more righteous
I guess it all goes back to up bringing ( witch you and I have spoke of before) I was taught as a young in that if ya didn't have anything nice to say don't open the ol pie hole, and again Noir I am happy I had a good up bringing
Abbey Marie
12-16-2010, 03:36 PM
How I got so ofcourse? Lol, you're the one that *loves* the scum in the OP who have been raping children, no? You're the on that has to love the 9/11 terrorists, you're the one that has to love everyone and anyone no matter how sick they are. Tell me, what's it like loving child rapists? cus I think that's more 'off course' than I could ever go.
No one ever said it would be easy. But Jesus set the example by forging those who tortured, betrayed and murdered him, though he committed no sin.
Anyway, it is your statement that the rule to forgive is the worst thing about Christianity that I was referring to, as I am sure you knew. Anyone who can seriously make a claim like that is worse than off course.
And the forgiveness was of you, not the rapists. (Maybe you should read posts twice before replying- I don't think I expressed it vaguely or complexly). It is not my job to forgive them, as thankfully, they did not rape me. That sad task falls to others and God.
Abbey Marie
12-16-2010, 03:39 PM
Where did anyone state that you must forgive and go softly on child rapists? Or are you just making shit up for effect again?
Indeed. Noir is either incapable of reading, or is deliberately baiting us based on nothing.
Abbey Marie
12-16-2010, 03:47 PM
One more thing, and then I think I have perhaps wasted enough of my time (on my birthday, no less), replying sincerely to you, Noir; as I think you are being less than sincere here.
If you truly wanted to understand Christian forgiveness, look to the Amish who forgave the man who murdered their small children a few years ago here in the US. It was their duty to forgive him (not mine), and they did so.
One more thing, and then I think I have perhaps wasted enough of my time (on my birthday, no less), replying sincerely to you, Noir; as I think you are being less than sincere here.
If you truly wanted to understand Christian forgiveness, look to the Amish who forgave the man who murdered their small children a few years ago here in the US. It was their duty to forgive him (not mine), and they did so.
Duty? So the Amish would of been 'bad' if thy had not forgiven a child murderer, and you see nothing wrong with that?
Personally I find the whole idea repulsive, but no matter.
And happy birthday. ^_^
Abbey Marie
12-16-2010, 09:41 PM
Duty? So the Amish would of been 'bad' if thy had not forgiven a child murderer, and you see nothing wrong with that?
Personally I find the whole idea repulsive, but no matter.
And happy birthday. ^_^
It's hard to be Christ-like.
Thanks for the birthday wishes. :)
It's hard to be Christ-like.
Thanks for the birthday wishes. :)
Indeed, I would suggest that's because it's inhuman.
Welcomes.
Abbey Marie
12-21-2010, 02:08 PM
Indeed, I would suggest that's because it's inhuman.
Welcomes.
Lots of things that are super- or supra-human (and sub-human for that matter) are done everyday. Are things ridiculous or even impossible, because Noir thinks they are inhuman?
Lots of things that are super- or supra-human (and sub-human for that matter) are done everyday. Are things ridiculous or even impossible, because Noir thinks they are inhuman?
Ofcourse, loads of inhumman things are done all the time, who knows how many children will be raped by someone or other tonight. I just also think it's inhuman to forgive and love child rapists. If you don't, fair enough, but I do.
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