View Full Version : "Religious Tolerance" in EGYPT
jimnyc
11-29-2010, 08:55 AM
Egyptian Islamic Police Killing Christians Coptic in the Church in Omraneya,Giza,Egypt 24-11-2010
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The only place you can expect religious tolerance is in a secular state.
Egyptian Islamic Police Killing Christians Coptic in the Church in Omraneya,Giza,Egypt 24-11-2010
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since you dont know anything on the subject, dont post it.
in this church, the christian wanted to build a community service building, and they got the license to build it, and they started to build it.
but after that, they built a church instead of a community service building, so the governor decided to stop the building, because they didnt build what they got the license for, they lied, so their license was revoked.
if they want to build a church, they should ask for a license for a chursh, to build something you need a license, you cant just lie to the authorities, if i want to build a mosque, i will have to get a license too.
so when the police went to the site and told them to stop the construction work, they started to attack the police, and throw stones on them, and bottles filled with flammable liquids, and they even attacked the governor building, destroyed the entrance, and burned the cars around it, and they injured deputy head security forces in giza and deputy head of central security forces in the area and other 5 officers and 20 soliders.
the police didnt start the violence, it just went to stop the construction in illegal building, which had its license revoked, but the christians got violent and threw rocks and bottle with flammable liquids, more than 3000 christians attacked the police, so what you saw in the video, wasnt the truth at all.
what did you expect, let them build wutever they want, without any license, are they above the law ???
Kathianne
11-30-2010, 06:22 AM
Abso, it may be yourself that is having some problems regarding the media:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AO2AY20101125
Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:45am EST
CAIRO (Reuters) - Egypt's attorney general ordered the detention of 156 protesters involved in clashes with riot police after the authorities blocked construction of a church in a Cairo suburb, the official news agency MENA said on Thursday.
One Christian was killed and dozens were wounded in Giza on Wednesday when about 3,000 Orthodox Copts hurled stones at police lines. Some officers threw them back and Muslims also lobbed rocks at the Christian protesters from behind the security cordon.
The attorney general decided to hold the 156 protesters for 15 days on suspicion of inciting the riots, MENA reported. It did not say whether they had been formally charged.
...
"The prosecutors denied the lawyers' request to consult privately with the accused. They refused to put on record the lawyers' arguments questioning the validity of the proceedings and they also refused to put on record the injuries sustained by some of the accused," the group said.
Giza Governor Sayyed Abdel-Aziz said the Christians appeared to have misused a permit for a social center to build a church.
The Christians said they had the right permit and would continue to build the three-storey domed structure.
(Reporting by Sarah Mikhail, editing by David Stamp)
Considering this earlier report, it should make you think a bit:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6A23LA20101103
Analysis: Qaeda threat to Egypt may stir militants
Wed, Nov 3 2010
By Sarah Mikhail and Marwa Awad
CAIRO (Reuters) - Militants may feel emboldened by an al Qaeda threat against Egypt's Christians, even if the network itself might struggle to mount such an assault.
The al Qaeda-linked Islamic State of Iraq, which launched an attack on a Baghdad church on Sunday that left 52 dead, has also threatened Egypt's church.
While there are no signs of a re-emergence of a 1990s-style Islamist insurgency, Egypt remains alert to anything that could stir communal tension that sometimes boils up over issues such as cross-faith relationships and conversions.
Egypt crushed a militant uprising in the 1990s and that experience should help it counter any new threat, Christians and Muslims said.
Egyptian authorities were quick to condemn the al Qaeda threat and to boost security at churches in the country, where Christians make up 10 percent of the 78 million people, the biggest Christian population in the Middle East.
"This threat is not directed only at Christians but at the Egyptian state. Egypt's security ended terrorism in the 1990s and it is capable today of eradicating these threats," said Father Abdel Maseeh Baseet of the Coptic Orthodox church, the biggest Christian community in Egypt.
The Iraq attack was against a Catholic church. The Egypt threat was directed against the Orthodox community - al Qaeda accused it of detaining two women converts to Islam.
....
Instead, he said it might be taken up by followers of the strict Salafi school of Islam, who have been vocal critics of the Coptic church in the conversion row.
Orthodox Bishop Morkos of Shubra al-Khaima in Cairo echoed the comments: "The (Iraqi) massacre will not lead to a rise in sectarian strife in Egypt but it could catalyze dangerous attempts by extremists."
...
jimnyc
11-30-2010, 07:22 AM
since you dont know anything on the subject, dont post it.
I'm growing a bit tired of you trying to tell me what I can and cannot do around here.
And I simply posted a video which CLEARLY shows abuse NO MATTER what the reason.
And I simply posted a video which CLEARLY shows abuse NO MATTER what the reason.
The video shows very little of nanything TBH
but, the real ramdon clunker is 'no matter the reason' you're saying that no matter what those christians did there would never be a reason to use riot police? EVER.
I'd like to know what you'd suggest happing if a couple of hunderd Muslims started rioting in New York because someone tried to revoke their licence for their Mosque, and if you'd feel as sympathetic to their cause as you do these Christians
jimnyc
11-30-2010, 08:25 AM
The video shows very little of nanything TBH
Bodies and or major injuries from the police isn't enough?
but, the real ramdon clunker is 'no matter the reason' you're saying that no matter what those christians did there would never be a reason to use riot police? EVER.
Riot police to quell the situation, yes. Riot police to engage and kill people, no.
I'd like to know what you'd suggest happing if a couple of hunderd Muslims started rioting in New York because someone tried to revoke their licence for their Mosque, and if you'd feel as sympathetic to their cause as you do these Christians
The NYC riot police and probably the FBI would be sent on to the scene and ALL violent people will likely be brought down with tasers, bean bags and other non-lethal means and they will all be arrested. I certainly wouldn't expect them to start killing people who are throwing rocks!!
BTW - you have me confused with another "Christian". Seems many times you try and toss christianity in my face when I speak the truth about muslims. Thing is - I AM NOT RELIGIOUS and don't defend the actions of "christians".
Bodies and or major injuries from the police isn't enough?
wow, well, maybe its just having grown up in Northern Ireland, but a few bloody faces and an acidental death is hardly anything to write home about.
Riot police to quell the situation, yes. Riot police to engage and kill people, no.
Right, riot police that must quell a violent mob without engaging, got ya =/
The NYC riot police and probably the FBI would be sent on to the scene and ALL violent people will likely be brought down with tasers, bean bags and other non-lethal means and they will all be arrested. I certainly wouldn't expect them to start killing people who are throwing rocks!!
BTW - you have me confused with another "Christian". Seems many times you try and toss christianity in my face when I speak the truth about muslims. Thing is - I AM NOT RELIGIOUS and don't defend the actions of "christians".
Oh, but what if one of those tasers kills someone? Or what if a non-leathal like a batton round hits someones face and they get a bloody nose and someone is their to film it!!!!
When you take part in a violent riot you take a chance, and chance that you have put yourself in. Now clearly if the police wanted to they could of shot hundres of these people dead, afterall they arrested 400ish of them, the fact that only one died and a few others got a broken face should be a relief.
The video shows very little of nanything TBH
but, the real ramdon clunker is 'no matter the reason' you're saying that no matter what those christians did there would never be a reason to use riot police? EVER.
I'd like to know what you'd suggest happing if a couple of hunderd Muslims started rioting in New York because someone tried to revoke their licence for their Mosque, and if you'd feel as sympathetic to their cause as you do these Christians
if muslims started throwing stones and molotovs at newyork police, what would the police do ?
jimnyc
11-30-2010, 08:58 AM
wow, well, maybe its just having grown up in Northern Ireland, but a few bloody faces and an acidental death is hardly anything to write home about.
Well, in most civilized societies we still take ANY deaths at a protest very seriously.
Right, riot police that must quell a violent mob without engaging, got ya =/
I never said they couldn't engage. In fact, I clearly laid out what they should do when they engage. You make no sense.
Oh, but what if one of those tasers kills someone? Or what if a non-leathal like a batton round hits someones face and they get a bloody nose and someone is their to film it!!!!
Wait, you just stated a second ago that I stated they shouldn't engage. Now your replying to the portion I wrote about them engaging. Weird, isn't it?
And your analogies are retarded. I'm talking about riot police throwing rocks and shooting at protesters. Again, at least in the civilized society I live in, the riot police do not throw rocks at protesters and they don't shoot them. They engage in non lethal means to the best of their ability.
When you take part in a violent riot you take a chance, and chance that you have put yourself in. Now clearly if the police wanted to they could of shot hundres of these people dead, afterall they arrested 400ish of them, the fact that only one died and a few others got a broken face should be a relief.
Maybe police should be doing their jobs and not engaging protesters in a rock throwing duel?
jimnyc
11-30-2010, 09:00 AM
if muslims started throwing stones and molotovs at newyork police, what would the police do ?
It's been done before, MANY times. The riot police use batons, bean bags instead of bullets, full riot gear, tasers...
They don't join the retards and throw stones and fire bombs back at them. That shit happens in shitty countries like yours.
Bodies and or major injuries from the police isn't enough?
Riot police to quell the situation, yes. Riot police to engage and kill people, no.
The NYC riot police and probably the FBI would be sent on to the scene and ALL violent people will likely be brought down with tasers, bean bags and other non-lethal means and they will all be arrested. I certainly wouldn't expect them to start killing people who are throwing rocks!!
BTW - you have me confused with another "Christian". Seems many times you try and toss christianity in my face when I speak the truth about muslims. Thing is - I AM NOT RELIGIOUS and don't defend the actions of "christians".
the police didnt kill people, its just one person died from his injuries, and he didnt die at the site of the church, he was among the people who went to attack the government building and burned the cars around it, so the police were defending themselfs there, not attacking, the attacks didnt happen at the site of the church, when the police stopped the construction, more than 3000 christians went to the governer and tried to get into the building and destroy it.
It's been done before, MANY times. The riot police use batons, bean bags instead of bullets, full riot gear, tasers...
They don't join the retards and throw stones and fire bombs back at them. That shit happens in shitty countries like yours.
fire bombs ???,, if they did that, dont you think that there would be more than 1 death ???
they arrested about 200 christians, with only 1 death, does that tell you that they were using lethal weapons ?
jimnyc
11-30-2010, 09:11 AM
fire bombs ???,, if they did that, dont you think that there would be more than 1 death ???
they arrested about 200 christians, with only 1 death, does that tell you that they were using lethal weapons ?
No, here in the US people toss around molotov cocktails at the police pretty much after every major sporting event championship. The police are protected by full riot gear and shields, and they DO NOT throw stuff back at the "protesters". They simply keep backing them up until they disperse, and those dumb enough not to will likely get a baton to the legs, a bean bag to the chest or a nice numbing feeling from a taser. But you will NEVER see our police engaging in rock throwing or trading molotov cocktails with protesters. That simply makes matters worse and is the sign of shitty police work.
Well, in most civilized societies we still take ANY deaths at a protest very seriously.
Ofcourse it should be taken seriously, but it should be in no way surprising, and if anything expected. But do you not agree that if theh police where out on a mission to kill that there would be allot more dead than one?
I never said they couldn't engage. In fact, I clearly laid out what they should do when they engage. You make no sense.
Oh right, see when you said "Riot police to engage and kill people, no." I thought would meant they shouldn't engage =/ and obviously the death was either an accident or the action of an individual, and not part of a policy to kill the rioters.
Wait, you just stated a second ago that I stated they shouldn't engage. Now your replying to the portion I wrote about them engaging. Weird, isn't it?
Yeah, because i was being sarcastic. Re-read with the sarcasm intended please :)
And your analogies are retarded. I'm talking about riot police throwing rocks and shooting at protesters. Again, at least in the civilized society I live in, the riot police do not throw rocks at protesters and they don't shoot them. They engage in non lethal means to the best of their ability.
No method is non-leathal, just less-likey-to-be-lethal.
Obiously i don't think the police should of used rocks etc, seems rather unprofesional,
...but yeah, we're civilised enough to fire plastic batons and shot electric jolts (please note sarcasm here)
Maybe police should be doing their jobs and not engaging protesters in a rock throwing duel?
Oh yeah, their job of qwelling a violent protest without engaging xD
As i said, rock throwing is silly, but iroicly it was probably the most non-lethal weapon used that day xD
No, here in the US people toss around molotov cocktails at the police pretty much after every major sporting event championship. The police are protected by full riot gear and shields, and they DO NOT throw stuff back at the "protesters". They simply keep backing them up until they disperse, and those dumb enough not to will likely get a baton to the legs, a bean bag to the chest or a nice numbing feeling from a taser. But you will NEVER see our police engaging in rock throwing or trading molotov cocktails with protesters. That simply makes matters worse and is the sign of shitty police work.
All of which points to thhe police not being well enough trained and disaplined. If the point if this thread is to point out that the Egyptian police need to train for riot situations more then fair enough, i agree. But i can't see much else beyond that.
No, here in the US people toss around molotov cocktails at the police pretty much after every major sporting event championship. The police are protected by full riot gear and shields, and they DO NOT throw stuff back at the "protesters". They simply keep backing them up until they disperse, and those dumb enough not to will likely get a baton to the legs, a bean bag to the chest or a nice numbing feeling from a taser. But you will NEVER see our police engaging in rock throwing or trading molotov cocktails with protesters. That simply makes matters worse and is the sign of shitty police work.
and who said that the police threw molotov coctails at them, dont you are making some wrong assumtions here ???
jimnyc
11-30-2010, 09:25 AM
Noir:
All of which points to thhe police not being well enough trained and disaplined. If the point if this thread is to point out that the Egyptian police need to train for riot situations more then fair enough, i agree. But i can't see much else beyond that.
Sure, police in Muslim countries consistently engaging in "attacks" with protesters is nothing to pay attention to. I suppose what happened to protesters in Iran when they gathered in the streets during elections was OK too.
Abso
and who said that the police threw molotov coctails at them, dont you are making some wrong assumtions here ???
YOU brought up the molotov cocktails, I simply replied in a manner showing how police in the US would NEVER do something like that - whereas police in Islamic lead countries will get down and dirty on the streets with protesters, maim them, throw rocks at them, shoot them, trample them.... I can post videos all day long if you deny this.
Sure, police in Muslim countries consistently engaging in "attacks" with protesters is nothing to pay attention to. I suppose what happened to protesters in Iran when they gathered in the streets during elections was OK too.
Sure pay attention, but no more than to any other countries, heck, police in Christian Northern Ireland regularly engaged in "attacks" on protesters. I guess you were up in arms back then at the lack of religious toleration.
From what i can see there was no deliberate attempt to kill the protestors or act in a way that would seem unique to the fact that they are acting against Christians, i.e. i think if this had been a riot with Muslims in Egypt the result would of bbeen much the same, and so this isn't really a thread about religious tolerance, but rather poorly trained riot police
jimnyc
11-30-2010, 11:29 AM
Sure pay attention, but no more than to any other countries, heck, police in Christian Northern Ireland regularly engaged in "attacks" on protesters. I guess you were up in arms back then at the lack of religious toleration.
From what i can see there was no deliberate attempt to kill the protestors or act in a way that would seem unique to the fact that they are acting against Christians, i.e. i think if this had been a riot with Muslims in Egypt the result would of bbeen much the same, and so this isn't really a thread about religious tolerance, but rather poorly trained riot police
So you think the scenery would have been the same if this were Muslims putting up a mosque? LOL Keep dreaming!
So you think the scenery would have been the same if this were Muslims putting up a mosque? LOL Keep dreaming!
believe me when i tell you this, the christians are treated very much better than muslims when it comes to the police.
muslims are often questioned and detained for any suspection of a terrorism related activity, and most of the detained muslims usualy are innocents
many years ago, my uncle was arrested and detained for suspection of joining a terrorist organization, while all he did was praying in the mosque everyday instead of praying in his house, and attended some religious lessons, but any muslims who attend a religious lesson in egypt is suspected in joining a terrorist activity or radical group, thats how muslims are treated in egypt, but christians never get arrested for such reasons.
yesterday i met an old friend of mine, we were in school together, he also was arrested and questioned by State Security which is something similar to NSA in usa, they questioned him just because he liked to attend religious lessons every friday, while he never was radical, and never was part of any radical activity.
fj1200
11-30-2010, 12:46 PM
believe me when i tell you this, the christians are treated very much better than muslims when it comes to the police.
muslims are often questioned and detained for any suspection of a terrorism related activity, and most of the detained muslims usualy are innocents
Are you saying that Muslims are profiled in Egypt?
Noir:
Abso
YOU brought up the molotov cocktails, I simply replied in a manner showing how police in the US would NEVER do something like that - whereas police in Islamic lead countries will get down and dirty on the streets with protesters, maim them, throw rocks at them, shoot them, trample them.... I can post videos all day long if you deny this.
yes, i brought up the molotov cocktails, but i said christians were using it on the police,not the opposite, and the problem is that its effective against them, because the riot police doesnt wear enough shields to protect them from fire, maybe the stones wont affect them much because of their shields, but the fire will.
and they didnt shoot the protestors, or there would be alot more than one dead protestor.
anyway, is the subject about the brutality of the police, or about the persecution of christians, if its about the brutality of the police, maybe you would have a valid point, but about the persecution of christians, you are totally wrong.
if muslims did the same as those christians, the police reaction would be alot more violent.
jimnyc
11-30-2010, 01:48 PM
yes, i brought up the molotov cocktails, but i said christians were using it on the police,not the opposite, and the problem is that its effective against them, because the riot police doesnt wear enough shields to protect them from fire, maybe the stones wont affect them much because of their shields, but the fire will.
and they didnt shoot the protestors, or there would be alot more than one dead protestor.
anyway, is the subject about the brutality of the police, or about the persecution of christians, if its about the brutality of the police, maybe you would have a valid point, but about the persecution of christians, you are totally wrong.
if muslims did the same as those christians, the police reaction would be alot more violent.
My point about the "cocktails" was more to say - EVEN IF the protesters are tossing them at the police - at least here in the US - the police would not be throwing them back at them like it's some sort of tennis match. The police and SWAT teams are very serious most of the time, will come forward in riot gear and use different non-lethal tactics to disperse the crowds.
Getting THAT involved with protesters and having rock fights with them is dumb too. Police shouldn't be there to provoke as well as stop the problems.
As for persecuting christians, while maybe not AS problematic in Egypt, it sure as hell is an issue throughout a lot of Islamic territory.
Kathianne
11-30-2010, 04:17 PM
There were concerns about the church being built weeks before this incident. The claim that it was something other than a church on the permit, seems a lie based on the previous article, covering just such permit.
Abso, I've no doubt the Egyptian police are profiling Muslims for terrorism, that shows a common sense missing in the West. The real prejudice though is obviously against the Christians, who are being persecuted, without cause.
My point about the "cocktails" was more to say - EVEN IF the protesters are tossing them at the police - at least here in the US - the police would not be throwing them back at them like it's some sort of tennis match. The police and SWAT teams are very serious most of the time, will come forward in riot gear and use different non-lethal tactics to disperse the crowds.
Getting THAT involved with protesters and having rock fights with them is dumb too. Police shouldn't be there to provoke as well as stop the problems.
As for persecuting christians, while maybe not AS problematic in Egypt, it sure as hell is an issue throughout a lot of Islamic territory.
as i recall, the thread title was ""Religious Tolerance" in EGYPT (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?29983-quot-Religious-Tolerance-quot-in-EGYPT)".
anyway, you say not as problematic, which something i refuse, because i dont see any persecution for christians at all in egypt, if there is a persecution, it would be for muslims not christians.
while your argument is about the police efficiency and methods, are you talking about the religious persecution or the police methods ???
if you are talking about persecution, i would say that the same actions are taken with muslims when they riot, and more severe measures are often used on muslims.
but if you are talking about police measures then it wont be about religious tolerance which is the title for this subject, and i refuse to discuss any internal security affair of my country with any foreigner, so if you dont think that there is any religious persecution, then the matter is closed for me.
if the police measures are used to everyone without any discrimination to the race or color or religion, then its doesnt have anything to do with persecution of anyone, and that what happens in egypt, same measures applies to everyone, muslims and christians.
when i have a problem with my government i talk to them, not with other countries, i dont need other countries to interfer in my country's internal affairs, i respect the freedom of my country, and i wish that everyone would respect my stand.
There were concerns about the church being built weeks before this incident. The claim that it was something other than a church on the permit, seems a lie based on the previous article, covering just such permit.
Abso, I've no doubt the Egyptian police are profiling Muslims for terrorism, that shows a common sense missing in the West. The real prejudice though is obviously against the Christians, who are being persecuted, without cause.
the christians are not being persecuted, they are the ones who started the riot, resisting the police, and refusing to stop building the illegal building, and burning cars, destroying puplic properties, and they all forgot that egypt is under martial law because of terrorism, and such riots are not allowed at all.
same measures are used with muslims when they make a riot so that was not a persecution.
you are calling me a liar !!!, i live in the country where the events happened, and you get your info from the media, and you think that you know the truth !!!
the license was just for an extension to the main church by adding a community service building, but it turned out that they were building a new church, so the mayor decided to stop the building because they didnt get a license to build a church, he was just applying the law which should be applied to everyone.
but it seems that they didnt think that the law will be applied on them, in a way they thought that they are above the law, or that when the building rise a little, the police will be helpless and will just let them go on with the building, but we have laws, and the laws doesnt allow them to just build anything they want without a proper license.
Kathianne
11-30-2010, 05:33 PM
the christians are not being persecuted, they are the ones who started the riot, resisting the police, and refusing to stop building the illegal building, and burning cars, destroying puplic properties, and they all forgot that egypt is under martial law because of terrorism, and such riots are not allowed at all.
same measures are used with muslims when they make a riot so that was not a persecution.
you are calling me a liar !!!, i live in the country where the events happened, and you get your info from the media, and you think that you know the truth !!!
the license was just for an extension to the main church by adding a community service building, but it turned out that they were building a new church, so the mayor decided to stop the building because they didnt get a license to build a church, he was just applying the law which should be applied to everyone.
but it seems that they didnt think that the law will be applied on them, in a way they thought that they are above the law, or that when the building rise a little, the police will be helpless and will just let them go on with the building, but we have laws, and the laws doesnt allow them to just build anything they want without a proper license.
Slow down. I was NOT calling you a liar, from my first post on the incident as reported by Reuter's, I made clear that there may be a problem in the news reporting you are getting.
It's not illegal if the permit was issued at stated, early in November, before the accusation?
It's not just 'our media' that has problems.
I have no reason to call you a liar, believe me, if I thought that you wouldn't have to make a leap-I can be a bit blunt at times.
Slow down. I was NOT calling you a liar, from my first post on the incident as reported by Reuter's, I made clear that there may be a problem in the news reporting you are getting.
It's not illegal if the permit was issued at stated, early in November, before the accusation?
It's not just 'our media' that has problems.
I have no reason to call you a liar, believe me, if I thought that you wouldn't have to make a leap-I can be a bit blunt at times.
also i am sure of my sources, but anyway, if the license was to build a church, why would the police stop the building ?
Kathianne
11-30-2010, 05:47 PM
also i am sure of my sources, but anyway, if the license was to build a church, why would the police stop the building ?
Did you read the articles? If not, why bother responding? BTW, thanks for the apology about me NOT calling you a liar.
Actually, with the above post along with the many you've responded to me with, I must say that Jim's point about Muslim men's treatment of women is beginning to ring true. Here we call the misogynists.
So you think the scenery would have been the same if this were Muslims putting up a mosque? LOL Keep dreaming!
The reason for the riot starting is inconsequential.
If i heard that there was a riot in Egypt, 400 Muslims rioting over something, several hundred had been arrested and one died, i would not think that odd. Would you?
400 Christians started rioting, a few hundred were arrested, one died, such is life.
Did you read the articles? If not, why bother responding? BTW, thanks for the apology about me NOT calling you a liar.
Actually, with the above post along with the many you've responded to me with, I must say that Jim's point about Muslim men's treatment of women is beginning to ring true. Here we call the misogynists.
actually i didnt know that you are a women, anyway, sorry for me jumping to the conclusion that you called me a liar, and i do not discriminate between men or women, my manners is the same with both, or maybe i use better manners while talking to women, but i dont insult anyone in the forum, with the exception of "red states rule" who once got me mad at him because of his inability to listen. :salute:
and i dont hate women at all, how can someone who adore babies hate women ? ;)
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