The Police State

[Pagan]

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Technology/images/1984-movie-big-brother.jpg

US Government Censors 70 Websites (http://www.osnews.com/story/24074/US_Government_Censors_70_Websites)

"My domain has been seized without any previous complaint or notice from any court!” the owner of Torrent-Finder explained TorrentFreak, “I firstly had DNS downtime. While I was contacting GoDaddy I noticed the DNS had changed. Godaddy had no idea what was going on and until now they do not understand the situation and they say it was totally from ICANN."

"This is equivalent to having your house seized for pointing out to someone you can buy weed in the college district"

"A war is brewing. If you think body scanners, sexual assault patdowns, censorship laws, and the seizure of property without even a notice are the end, you're sadly mistaken.

It's only the beginning."

[SassyLady]

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Technology/images/1984-movie-big-brother.jpg

US Government Censors 70 Websites (http://www.osnews.com/story/24074/US_Government_Censors_70_Websites)

"My domain has been seized without any previous complaint or notice from any court!” the owner of Torrent-Finder explained TorrentFreak, “I firstly had DNS downtime. While I was contacting GoDaddy I noticed the DNS had changed. Godaddy had no idea what was going on and until now they do not understand the situation and they say it was totally from ICANN."

"This is equivalent to having your house seized for pointing out to someone you can buy weed in the college district"

"A war is brewing. If you think body scanners, sexual assault patdowns, censorship laws, and the seizure of property without even a notice are the end, you're sadly mistaken.

It's only the beginning."

Is this the first shot heard around the world?????

[NightTrain]

I would assume that it has something to do with the fact that torrent sites are sharing copyrighted material, primarily movies.

I don't know what the percentage is, but I'm sure the content has to be 99% illegal due to copyright violations.

I can't say that I haven't grabbed a LOT of stuff from torrents, it's fast and I can utilize the 12 meg pipe that I have. I downloaded the Team America : World Police movie in about 8 minutes on one of them.

[Gaffer]

The interesting part is who's doing the seizing. ICE. Now what is ICE doing seizing websites that have nothing to do with illegal aliens?

[Mr. P]

The interesting part is who's doing the seizing. ICE. Now what is ICE doing seizing websites that have nothing to do with illegal aliens?
Well they gotta have something to do cuz they sure ain't interested in illegals.

[fj1200]

"My domain has been seized without any previous complaint or notice from any court!” the owner of Torrent-Finder explained TorrentFreak, “I firstly had DNS downtime. While I was contacting GoDaddy I noticed the DNS had changed. Godaddy had no idea what was going on and until now they do not understand the situation and they say it was totally from ICANN."

"This is equivalent to having your house seized for pointing out to someone you can buy weed in the college district"

"A war is brewing. If you think body scanners, sexual assault patdowns, censorship laws, and the seizure of property without even a notice are the end, you're sadly mistaken.

It's only the beginning."

It would seem they got a warrant.

http://torrentfreak.com/images/seizedservers.gif

Do you have an issue with the courts protecting copyright laws?

[Gaffer]

It would seem they got a warrant.

http://torrentfreak.com/images/seizedservers.gif

Do you have an issue with the courts protecting copyright laws?

I have an issue with the seizure being done by ICE and not the FBI. This is outside ICE jurisdiction as it has nothing to do with immigration. Something doesn't smell right here.

[fj1200]

I have an issue with the seizure being done by ICE and not the FBI. This is outside ICE jurisdiction as it has nothing to do with immigration. Something doesn't smell right here.

Interesting but DOJ and NIPR mean nothing? The question remains however.

[Gaffer]

Interesting but DOJ and NIPR mean nothing? The question remains however.

They are the prosecutor arm. The FBI is the enforcement arm. ICE handles immigration. That's why this doesn't make sense. Myself I don't care if they prosecute copyright laws. I question whose doing the enforcement. And is this the start of some major crackdown throughout the internet? I'm having a revelarts moment here I think.

[fj1200]

ICE handles immigration.

Immigration and CUSTOMS Enforcement. Which is why they are probably taking lead relating to copyright. And a lot of the other sites pulled related to counterfeit handbags if I read that part right.

Reading some of the comments on the original link I saw a lot of them relating to internet ownership which is far from the issue IMO, similar to Napster back in the day.

[Pagan]

It would seem they got a warrant.

http://torrentfreak.com/images/seizedservers.gif

Do you have an issue with the courts protecting copyright laws?

Really?

So ICE is the world police eh?

Registrant:
Torrent Finder
15 Alexandria St.
N/A
Alexandria, 55555
Egypt


Domain Name: TORRENT-FINDER.COM
Created on: 30-Dec-05
Expires on: 30-Dec-11
Last Updated on: 04-Oct-10

[fj1200]

Really?

So ICE is the world police eh?

Registrant:
Torrent Finder
15 Alexandria St.
N/A
Alexandria, 55555
Egypt


Domain Name: TORRENT-FINDER.COM
Created on: 30-Dec-05
Expires on: 30-Dec-11
Last Updated on: 04-Oct-10

And? It doesn't mean they can't enforce US laws and block US access if they're breaking US law.

[Pagan]

And? It doesn't mean they can't enforce US laws and block US access if they're breaking US law.

So just because someone accuses someone of committing a crime they can shut them down even if they're outside of the country. No court, just an accusation without a trail or court just because ICE says so.

OK

So someone in Egypt can accuse a site here in the U.S. and shut the U.S. site down.

[fj1200]

So just because someone accuses someone of committing a crime they can shut them down even if they're outside of the country. No court, just an accusation without a trail or court just because ICE says so.

OK

You are familiar with the process of getting a warrant aren't you? There's like a judge involved and stuff. :rolleyes:

Why don't you actually read the notice and not go off all knee-jerk like most of the commenters.


So someone in Egypt can accuse a site here in the U.S. and shut the U.S. site down.

I'm guessing that's not what happened here... but call me crazy.

[Pagan]

You are familiar with the process of getting a warrant aren't you? There's like a judge involved and stuff. :rolleyes:

Why don't you actually read the notice and not go off all knee-jerk like most of the commenters.

I'm guessing that's not what happened here... but call me crazy.

Aaaah the site is in Egypt so ICE can enforce it's it's will outside of the Country?

Look at it this way, let's say China doesn't like a site here in the U.S. because it speaks out against China's government so they can just "shut down" the site here.

Same thing

[Kathianne]

The interesting part is who's doing the seizing. ICE. Now what is ICE doing seizing websites that have nothing to do with illegal aliens?

I agree. They don't have the time or manpower to take care of their assigned responsibilities, but they do have the time and manpower to go after those breaking copyright laws?

The scary thing to me is that ICE now falls under HLS, and somehow their new focus should make us believe that this is the 'department' that will connect-the-dots for future attacks on the US?

[Kathianne]

It would seem they got a warrant.

http://torrentfreak.com/images/seizedservers.gif

Do you have an issue with the courts protecting copyright laws?

and do you see a problem that ICE is doing this rather than FBI?

[Kathianne]

Hmmm, will all those warnings on dvds have to be rewritten as a warning from US ICE department?

[Gaffer]

and do you see a problem that ICE is doing this rather than FBI?

That's why something smells in washington to me. I'm beginning to think there is something much more sinister involved here than simple copyright laws. Is ICE getting some kind of broader powers?

[Pagan]

That's why something smells in washington to me. I'm beginning to think there is something much more sinister involved here than simple copyright laws. Is ICE getting some kind of broader powers?

Yep, nailed it on the head.

It's about "control", the Internet is pretty much Anarchy and GovCo has been desperately trying to control it for some time now.

[fj1200]

Aaaah the site is in Egypt so ICE can enforce it's it's will outside of the Country?

Look at it this way, let's say China doesn't like a site here in the U.S. because it speaks out against China's government so they can just "shut down" the site here.

Same thing

The site is IN Egypt? That's laughable, don't you understand how the interwebs work? Besides, it's torrent-finder.com or torrent-finder.EG. :rolleyes:

They can't shut down the "business" in Egypt but they can shut down that sites access to the US web if they are violating US law. Why is that hard to comprehend? How is ICE extending its enforcement beyond the US border?

China can't do that just like we can't shut down a site operating in China. Not the same thing.

[Kathianne]

The site is IN Egypt? That's laughable, don't you understand how the interwebs work? Besides, it's torrent-finder.com or torrent-finder.EG. :rolleyes:

They can't shut down the "business" in Egypt but they can shut down that sites access to the US web if they are violating US law. Why is that hard to comprehend? How is ICE extending its enforcement beyond the US border?

China can't do that just like we can't shut down a site operating in China. Not the same thing.

That doesn't seem to fit what should be a mission statement regarding ICE, though visiting http://www.dhs.gov/index.shtm one gets the idea there are no longer any boundaries so the crossover will be phenomenal. Ineptitude and non-accountability reigns.

[fj1200]

and do you see a problem that ICE is doing this rather than FBI?

Meh. Would Pagan be saying the same things if the FBI was running this?


That's why something smells in washington to me. I'm beginning to think there is something much more sinister involved here than simple copyright laws. Is ICE getting some kind of broader powers?


Yep, nailed it on the head.

It's about "control", the Internet is pretty much Anarchy and GovCo has been desperately trying to control it for some time now.

You people are flipped on this one.

Did you not follow any links like this...
http://torrentfreak.com/u-s-government-seizes-bittorrent-search-engine-domain-and-more-101126/
... and see all the counterfeit sites? Who do you think purveyors of counterfeit merchandise might be worrying about? ICustomsE perhaps?

Do you really think the core issue here is a vast conspiracy to get control of the webs? And do you really think they would go after clear violators of copyright, trademark, etc. laws to hide their evil intentions? Didn't many think the same things about Napster as they do about this this time around? Based on the comments in the first story, it's the same arguments.

[fj1200]

That doesn't seem to fit what should be a mission statement regarding ICE, though visiting http://www.dhs.gov/index.shtm one gets the idea there are no longer any boundaries so the crossover will be phenomenal. Ineptitude and non-accountability reigns.

Do you get upset when ICE does a drug bust? Ask why the DEA wasn't in on it?

ICE has many divisions including. :eek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement#Cyber_Cri mes_Section

Cyber crimes.

[Kathianne]

Do you get upset when ICE does a drug bust? Ask why the DEA wasn't in on it?

ICE has many divisions including. :eek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement#Cyber_Cri mes_Section

Cyber crimes.

The overlapping jurisdictions creates the inability to monitor the limits of any of the agencies falling under the umbrella of HLS. It's wrong. Now if it were a website that facilitated illegal immigration or actions of illegals already here-such as stealing SSN numbers, I'd think what a great resource of consolidation. Instead we are treated to replication and non-accountability.

First department to be abolished should be the newest, then the next, then the next...

[Gaffer]

Meh. Would Pagan be saying the same things if the FBI was running this?





You people are flipped on this one.

Did you not follow any links like this...
http://torrentfreak.com/u-s-government-seizes-bittorrent-search-engine-domain-and-more-101126/
... and see all the counterfeit sites? Who do you think purveyors of counterfeit merchandise might be worrying about? ICustomsE perhaps?

Do you really think the core issue here is a vast conspiracy to get control of the webs? And do you really think they would go after clear violators of copyright, trademark, etc. laws to hide their evil intentions? Didn't many think the same things about Napster as they do about this this time around? Based on the comments in the first story, it's the same arguments.

If there's a customs violation I can see where ICE is involved. Beyond that they would be overstepping their authority. As I don't trust the government and most certainly this administration I will keep watch on how this progresses. Agendas of the government are advanced in small increments. Your probably right, it's just a standard crack down on copyright infringement.

[fj1200]

The overlapping jurisdictions creates the inability to monitor the limits of any of the agencies falling under the umbrella of HLS. It's wrong. Now if it were a website that facilitated illegal immigration or actions of illegals already here-such as stealing SSN numbers, I'd think what a great resource of consolidation. Instead we are treated to replication and non-accountability.

First department to be abolished should be the newest, then the next, then the next...

I have no disagreement with overlapping redundancies and whether the department is necessary or whatever but it's hard to argue that AT THIS POINT it seems that HLS/ICE is the proper agency to investigate/prosecute.


If there's a customs violation I can see where ICE is involved. Beyond that they would be overstepping their authority. As I don't trust the government and most certainly this administration I will keep watch on how this progresses. Agendas of the government are advanced in small increments. Your probably right, it's just a standard crack down on copyright infringement.

It would seem they are not overstepping.

I think that it is counterproductive to cry wolf about government censorship when it's nowhere near the real issue. Raise holy hell when it's a real issue not when a bunch of copyright infringers have to start paying for movies.

[Kathianne]

I have no disagreement with overlapping redundancies and whether the department is necessary or whatever but it's hard to argue that AT THIS POINT it seems that HLS/ICE is the proper agency to investigate/prosecute.



It would seem they are not overstepping.

I think that it is counterproductive to cry wolf about government censorship when it's nowhere near the real issue. Raise holy hell when it's a real issue not when a bunch of copyright infringers have to start paying for movies.

I disagree, as the notices on every freaking dvd and cd states: the FBI is the source of enforcement, it's an 'international warning' btw.

[fj1200]

I disagree...

Well OK then. :shrug: Do we need Interpol involved? I see their warning too.

[Kathianne]

Well OK then. :shrug: Do we need Interpol involved? I see their warning too.

and those warning long pre-date 9/11, much less HLS.

[revelarts]

Federal Agencies Mission creep has been getting worse and worse and many times they don't have athority but they flash a badge and make a "request" . Which people interpret as an official demand. Some Isp's, banks, phone companies, Libraries, etc just go along with it. Especially when people just assume there must be some good reason for it security wise. Thankfully a few people are starting to asks the feds 2nd and 3rd questions and not just opening the door as they seem to be just pushing us further and further. Sometimes "legally", via NEW legislation or the new Dept of Homeland Security Dept mass-up.

I Could mention several instances i heard of like this and worse.
But here's the one that BUGS me just about the most. For, one reason, I followed the " legal" process over about 6 years that help set this up and also took the power of the national guard away from the Governor's and put them in the hands of the Feds--- read --President.

Salon, of all Places (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2008/09/24/army/index.html)

Many bloggers...have pointed to this obviously disturbing article from Army Times (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/09/army_homeland_090708w/), which announces that "beginning Oct. 1 for 12 months, the [1st Brigade Combat Team of the 3rd Infantry Division] will be under the day-to-day control of U.S. Army North" -- "the first time an active unit has been given a dedicated assignment to NorthCom, a joint command established in 2002 to provide command and control for federal homeland defense efforts and coordinate defense support of civil authorities." The article details:

They'll learn new skills, use some of the ones they acquired in the war zone and more than likely will not be shot at while doing any of it.

They may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack. . . .

The 1st BCT's soldiers also will learn how to use "the first ever nonlethal package that the Army has fielded," 1st BCT commander Col. Roger Cloutier said, referring to crowd and traffic control equipment and nonlethal weapons designed to subdue unruly or dangerous individuals without killing them.

"It's a new modular package of nonlethal capabilities that they're fielding. They've been using pieces of it in Iraq, but this is the first time that these modules were consolidated and this package fielded, and because of this mission we’re undertaking we were the first to get it."

The package includes equipment to stand up a hasty road block; spike strips for slowing, stopping or controlling traffic; shields and batons; and, beanbag bullets.

"I was the first guy in the brigade to get Tasered," said Cloutier, describing the experience as "your worst muscle cramp ever -- times 10 throughout your whole body". . . .

The brigade will not change its name, but the force will be known for the next year as a CBRNE Consequence Management Response Force, or CCMRF (pronounced "sea-smurf").

For more than 100 years -- since the end of the Civil War -- deployment of the U.S. military inside the U.S. has been prohibited under The Posse Comitatus Act (the only exceptions being that the National Guard and Coast Guard are exempted, and use of the military on an emergency ad hoc basis is permitted, such as what happened after Hurricane Katrina). Though there have been some erosions of this prohibition over the last several decades (most perniciously to allow the use of the military to work with law enforcement agencies in the "War on Drugs"), the bright line ban on using the U.S. military as a standing law enforcement force inside the U.S. has been more or less honored -- until now. And as the Army Times notes, once this particular brigade completes its one-year assignment, "expectations are that another, as yet unnamed, active-duty brigade will take over and that the mission will be a permanent one."

I'm of the mindset that the military is used to kill people and break things. Just why would the feds want to kill Posse Comitatus act? Do we have that much civil unrest here? That many Unruly citizens that we need a brigade at the ready? Are the Governors so inept that they can't handle the national guard? (Reagan, Carter, Clinton, GW Bush were Governors does becoming president gift you some how to handle the guard properly?)

I'm sure there's some good reason for it though. I'm just being silly questioning the Feds jurisdiction to use the military in the U.S.. I don't mean to thead jack. But it's is along the 1984 theme to.

But whatever, "meh", shrug .

[fj1200]

Oh brother. :rolleyes:

[revelarts]

Police State...

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/realtime/
"Feds Warrantlessly Tracking Americans’ Credit Cards in Real Time
Federal law enforcement agencies have been tracking Americans in real-time using credit cards, loyalty cards and travel reservations without getting a court order, a new document released under a government sunshine request shows.

The document, obtained by security researcher Christopher Soghoian, explains how so-called “Hotwatch” orders allow for real-time tracking of individuals in a criminal investigation via credit card companies, rental car agencies, calling cards, and even grocery store loyalty programs. The revelation sheds a little more light on the Justice Department’s increasing power and willingness to surveil Americans with little to no judicial or Congressional oversight.

For credit cards, agents can get real-time information on a person’s purchases by writing their own subpoena, followed up by a order from a judge that the surveillance not be disclosed. Agents can also go the traditional route — going to a judge, proving probable cause and getting a search warrant — which means the target will eventually be notified they were spied on.

The document suggests that the normal practice is to ask for all historical records on an account or individual from a credit card company, since getting stored records is generally legally easy. Then the agent sends a request for “Any and all records and information relating directly or indirectly to any and all ongoing and future transactions or events relating to any and all of the following person(s), entitities, account numbers, addresses and other matters…” That gets them a live feed of transaction data.

DOJ powerpoint presentation on Hotwatch surveillance orders of credit card transactions...."

Silly Constitution
goofy bill of rights
:rolleyes::boohoo:

[fj1200]

Are you concerned about the "hot" nature of it or the "warrantless" nature?

[revelarts]

Are you concerned about the "hot" nature of it or the "warrantless" nature?

warrentless primarily.

But the Hot bit. I don't like either. It presumes future crimes rather than investigates suspected past criminal activity. Seems the level of "probable cause" should be pretty high before a judge allows that for a U.S. citizen.

[fj1200]

warrentless primarily.

But the Hot bit. I don't like either. It presumes future crimes rather than investigates suspected past criminal activity. Seems the level of "probable cause" should be pretty high before a judge allows that for a U.S. citizen.

It seems they weren't warrantless, requiring subpoenas and all but I honestly don't know all the differences between the options they laid out.

Nevertheless, I see the hot activity as akin to a wiretap which has obviously been used for quite some time... all necessary precautions taken of course.

[LuvRPgrl]

Well they gotta have something to do cuz they sure ain't interested in illegals.

I thanked you for this post even though, oddly enough,

I SUPPORT COMPLETLY OPEN AND FREE BORDERS,
but if they are going to create a govt entity, it should be doing what it was designated for,

[LuvRPgrl]

Shouldnt it be in court before they just go seizing it,,of course, Im assuming it hasnt been in court yet.

I mean like, gov't ACCUSES web site of copyright infringement,,,,then, after being found guilty, site closed,

As opposed to, site closed because govt SUSPECTS......

Besides, those copyright laws are bullsheet, another example of how govt is in cohoots with big business and money, why arent they spending time protecting avg citizens who have their identity stolen, instead of making sure copyright laws arent being infringed so those worth 10 million $$$ can be worth 20million $$$ next year, and donate millions to obamas next presidental run,,,,,oh yea, obama is for the small guy


I would assume that it has something to do with the fact that torrent sites are sharing copyrighted material, primarily movies.

I don't know what the percentage is, but I'm sure the content has to be 99% illegal due to copyright violations.

I can't say that I haven't grabbed a LOT of stuff from torrents, it's fast and I can utilize the 12 meg pipe that I have. I downloaded the Team America : World Police movie in about 8 minutes on one of them.

[fj1200]

I mean like, gov't ACCUSES web site of copyright infringement,,,,then, after being found guilty, site closed,

I hear they're thinking of letting drug dealers continue to deal drugs until they're convicted. Seems about right, innocent until guilty and all.


Besides, those copyright laws are bullsheet, another example of how govt is in cohoots with big business and money...

Because you don't like government protecting private property rights? Kind of a major function of government in my book.

[BoogyMan]

I seem to remember my liberal friends calling for Mr. Bush's head on a pole for warrantless wiretaps. I am now waiting for my liberal friends to evidence the same level of disgust now that it is a liberal behind the buttons.

Hearing a lot of crickets right now....


Federal law enforcement agencies have been tracking Americans in real-time using credit cards, loyalty cards and travel reservations without getting a court order, a new document released under a government sunshine request shows.

The document, obtained by security researcher Christopher Soghoian, explains how so-called “Hotwatch” orders allow for real-time tracking of individuals in a criminal investigation via credit card companies, rental car agencies, calling cards, and even grocery store loyalty programs. The revelation sheds a little more light on the Justice Department’s increasing power and willingness to surveil Americans with little to no judicial or Congressional oversight.

.: Read the rest of this article :. (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/realtime/)

[fj1200]

This was brought up in another thread...

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?29965-The-Police-State&p=452886#post452886

[BoogyMan]

This was brought up in another thread...

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?29965-The-Police-State&p=452886#post452886

DUHR!!! Thanks for the link. :)

[Kathianne]

DUHR!!! Thanks for the link. :)

Threads merged. :thumb:

[fj1200]

I seem to remember my liberal friends calling for Mr. Bush's head on a pole for warrantless wiretaps. I am now waiting for my liberal friends to evidence the same level of disgust now that it is a liberal behind the buttons.

Hearing a lot of crickets right now....

According to the article, it's either done by warrant or subpoena, presumably signed off on by the court either way.

[revelarts]

It seems they weren't warrantless, requiring subpoenas and all but I honestly don't know all the differences between the options they laid out.

Nevertheless, I see the hot activity as akin to a wiretap which has obviously been used for quite some time... all necessary precautions taken of course.
Sudpoena definition here (http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/Rule45.htm)

These new "subpoenas" aren't legal. the officers are writing them themselves. No judge is involved in that process. Subpoenas are supposed to be issued from courts. And they are to get people to present evidence in a Court proceeding After charges have been filed. Not a tool for spying. What they are doing is simply creating a demand letter from a cop saying, "Show me all the info you have on this guy until we say stop" and calling it a subpoena.
That's BS. an unconstitutional.

They need a warrant from a judge showing "probable cause", Period.
And Warrants always have time limits and must be Specific in request of items and info. the gov't does not have the right to make open ended request of your information or do "fishing expeditions".

the Feds are way over the line here.

[fj1200]

Sudpoena definition here (http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/Rule45.htm)

These new "subpoenas" aren't legal. the officers are writing them themselves. No judge is involved in that process. Subpoenas are supposed to be issued from courts. And they are to get people to present evidence in a Court proceeding After charges have been filed. Not a tool for spying. What they are doing is simply creating a demand letter from a cop saying, "Show me all the info you have on this guy until we say stop" and calling it a subpoena.
That's BS. an unconstitutional.

They need a warrant from a judge showing "probable cause", Period.
And Warrants always have time limits and must be Specific in request of items and info. the gov't does not have the right to make open ended request of your information or do "fishing expeditions".

the Feds are way over the line here.

That's your opinion on the matter and if so I'm sure it will be challenged. However, I don't believe you've shown that these "new subpoenas" are different procedurally than before.

You seem to be working on the presumption that this is new and useful only for spying rather than being useful in an ongoing investigation. Do you truly see a hotwatch as different than a wiretap?

[revelarts]

What a subpoena is, is not my opinion.

Courts are suppose to issue subpoenas not Cops.
And they are Issued so that the evidence or testimony appears in open court. Not secretly held by the cops during an investigation.
That's that just the facts.

ANd Yes thei Hot Suponea is different from a wire tap in several ways.

1st you need a warrant fropm a court to get a wire tap.
they don't have it.
Also the information they are gathering can be keep secret. with a warrant there's a bit of a public record.
And the scope of the invasion of privacy is more
ISP activity, Bank account and credit card transactions.

the horse may have already left the stable on all of those but there's no constitutional way for them to do it.

Sure one could hire a lawyer to say I'm wrong. but the plian lauguge and pre patroit act understanding of the constitution is clear.

Cops need to get WARRANTS form the court to search and seize any of your personal info or to get wiretaps.
pretty simple.

Remember the Red coats writing their own warrants, called -Writs of Assistance- was one of the complaints the founders had against the crown.
"

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/americanrevolution/a/amrevcauses.htm
British...Customs officials were empowered with writs of assistance (transferable, open-ended search warrants), which permitted them to search warehouses, homes, and ships on a whim without cause. ....

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Writs_of_assistance.aspx
..The Writs of Assistance case involved a legal dispute during 1761 in which 63 Boston merchants petitioned the Massachusetts Superior Court to challenge the legality of a particular type of search warrant called a writ of assistance. Also known as Paxton's Case, the Writs of Assistance case contributed to the Founding Fathers' original understanding of search and seizure law, planted the seeds of judicial review in the United States, and helped shape the U.S. concept of natural law...

[logroller]

The interesting part is who's doing the seizing. ICE. Now what is ICE doing seizing websites that have nothing to do with illegal aliens?

Patriot act loophole I suppose.

[logroller]

That's your opinion on the matter and if so I'm sure it will be challenged. However, I don't believe you've shown that these "new subpoenas" are different procedurally than before.

You seem to be working on the presumption that this is new and useful only for spying rather than being useful in an ongoing investigation. Do you truly see a hotwatch as different than a wiretap?

hmmm. hotwatch you say-- intriguing!

how do we get a hotwatch so constitutional violations can be addressed in the supreme court without any of that meddlesome oversight and due-process? No, wait, don't tell me. (They're listening)

[fj1200]

What a subpoena is, is not my opinion.

You will notice upon rereading my post, I didn't quibble with the definition provided.


Courts are suppose to issue subpoenas not Cops.
And they are Issued so that the evidence or testimony appears in open court. Not secretly held by the cops during an investigation.
That's that just the facts.

And I noted your definition a subpoena must "(i) state the court from which it issued" which to me sounds like cops are not doing it.


ANd Yes thei Hot Suponea is different from a wire tap in several ways.

1st you need a warrant fropm a court to get a wire tap.
they don't have it.
Also the information they are gathering can be keep secret. with a warrant there's a bit of a public record.
And the scope of the invasion of privacy is more
ISP activity, Bank account and credit card transactions.

OK, I'll take your word for it. And as I noted before, as long as all necessary precautions are taken, or some such thing.


the horse may have already left the stable on all of those but there's no constitutional way for them to do it.

Sure one could hire a lawyer to say I'm wrong. but the plian lauguge and pre patroit act understanding of the constitution is clear.

Cops need to get WARRANTS form the court to search and seize any of your personal info or to get wiretaps.
pretty simple.

Remember the Red coats writing their own warrants, called -Writs of Assistance- was one of the complaints the founders had against the crown.
"

Again, your opinion re: constitutionality.

[logroller]

You will notice upon rereading my post, I didn't quibble with the definition provided.



And I noted your definition a subpoena must "(i) state the court from which it issued" which to me sounds like cops are not doing it.



OK, I'll take your word for it. And as I noted before, as long as all necessary precautions are taken, or some such thing.



Again, your opinion re: constitutionality.

Are we supposed to preface our opinions as such? I thought we're the judge and executioner on here!

[logroller]

What about the google fiasco in China? Is that a similar issue regarding freedom of foreign information?

[revelarts]

NSA Official Quits over growing Orwellian like Surveillance,
“…it was a direct violation of the constitutional rights of everybody in the country…”

Whistleblower: The NSA is Lying–U.S. Government Has Copies of Most of Your Emails
National Security Agency whistleblower William Binney reveals he believes domestic surveillance has become more expansive under President Obama than President George W. Bush. He estimates the NSA has assembled 20 trillion "transactions" — phone calls, emails and other forms of data — from Americans. This likely includes copies of almost all of the emails sent and received from most people living in the United States. Binney talks about Section 215 of the USA PATRIOT Act and challenges NSA Director Keith Alexander’s assertion that the NSA is not intercepting information about U.S. citizens.

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AMY GOODMAN: You, for a time, directed the NSA’s World Geopolitical and Military Analysis Reporting Group. Tell us what you did and then why you left and what happened to you afterwards.
WILLIAM BINNEY: Well, I was the technical director of that group, that basically looked at the world, so we looked at all the technical problems of—in the world, and see how we could solve collection, analysis and reporting on military and geopolitical issues all around the world, every country in the world. So, it was a rather large technical problem to tackle, but it—and one of the largest problems we thought we had was looking at the World Wide Web and all the ballooning and mushrooming communications in the world. And our ability to deal with that was diminishing over time, so I kind of referred to it as our inability to keep up with the rate of change. So, we were falling behind the rate of change.
So we—I had a very small group of people in a lab, and we decided to attack that problem. And we did it by looking at how we could graph the network of communications and all the communications in the world, and then—and then focus in on that graph and use the graph to limit what we wanted to attack. And we basically succeeded at that, but in the process, of course, we scooped up Americans from different places, so we had to protect their identities, according to our laws and privacy rights of U.S. citizens. So, under USSID 18, we built in protections to anonymize their identities, so you couldn’t really tell who you were looking at.
JUAN GONZALEZ: And that’s because the NSA could do surveillance from abroad, but not of U.S. citizens.
WILLIAM BINNEY: Well, and, you see, the World Wide Web routes things all over, so you never really know where U.S. citizens’ communications are going to be routed. So, you—if you were collecting somewhere else on another continent, you could still get U.S. citizens. That’s—see, that was a universal problem. So we devised how to do that and protect U.S. citizens. So—and this was all before 9/11. And we devised how to do that, made that effective and operating. So we were actually prepared to deploy about eight months before 9/11 and actually have a system that would run and manage the—what I call 20 terabytes a minute of activity.
So—but after 9/11, all the wraps came off for NSA, and they decided to—between the White House and NSA and CIA, they decided to eliminate the protections on U.S. citizens and collect on domestically. So they started collecting from a commercial—the one commercial company that I know of that participated provided over 300—probably, on the average, about 320 million records of communication of a U.S. citizen to a U.S. citizen inside this country.
AMY GOODMAN: What company?
WILLIAM BINNEY: AT&T. It was long-distance communications. So they were providing billing data. At that point, I knew I could not stay, because it was a direct violation of the constitutional rights of everybody in the country. Plus it violated the pen register law and Stored Communications Act, the Electronic Privacy Act, the intelligence acts of 1947 and 1978. I mean, it was just this whole series of—plus all the laws covering federal communications governing telecoms. I mean, all those laws were being violated, including the Constitution. And that was a decision made that wasn’t going to be reversed, so I could not stay there. I had to leave.

[Kathianne]

NSA Official Quits over growing Orwellian like Surveillance,
“…it was a direct violation of the constitutional rights of everybody in the country…”

Whistleblower: The NSA is Lying–U.S. Government Has Copies of Most of Your Emails



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Got a link to all this? Otherwise it seems more likely to belong in Conspiracy Forum, IMO.

[revelarts]

I had a more info in my post i thought was it edited?


http://www.democracynow.org/2012/4/20/exclusive_national_security_agency_whistleblower_w illiam

Video of democracy now interview
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/4/20/exclusive_national_security_agency_whistleblower_w illiam

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[revelarts]

He was one of the sources for this wired magazine story

The NSA Is Building the Country’s Biggest Spy Center (Watch What You Say)

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/1


...For the first time, a former NSA official has gone on the record to describe the program, codenamed Stellar Wind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_wind_%28code_name%29), in detail. William Binney was a senior NSA crypto-mathematician largely responsible for automating the agency’s worldwide eavesdropping network. A tall man with strands of black hair across the front of his scalp and dark, determined eyes behind thick-rimmed glasses, the 68-year-old spent nearly four decades breaking codes and finding new ways to channel billions of private phone calls and email messages from around the world into the NSA’s bulging databases. As chief and one of the two cofounders of the agency’s Signals Intelligence Automation Research Center, Binney and his team designed much of the infrastructure that’s still likely used to intercept international and foreign communications.

He explains that the agency could have installed its tapping gear at the nation’s cable landing stations—the more than two dozen sites on the periphery of the US where fiber-optic cables come ashore. If it had taken that route, the NSA would have been able to limit its eavesdropping to just international communications, which at the time was all that was allowed under US law. Instead it chose to put the wiretapping rooms at key junction points throughout the country—large, windowless buildings known as switches—thus gaining access to not just international communications but also to most of the domestic traffic flowing through the US. The network of intercept stations goes far beyond the single room in an AT&T building in San Francisco exposed by a whistle-blower in 2006. “I think there’s 10 to 20 of them,” Binney says. “That’s not just San Francisco; they have them in the middle of the country and also on the East Coast.”
The eavesdropping on Americans doesn’t stop at the telecom switches. To capture satellite communications in and out of the US, the agency also monitors AT&T’s powerful earth stations, satellite receivers in locations that include Roaring Creek and Salt Creek. Tucked away on a back road in rural Catawissa, Pennsylvania, Roaring Creek’s three 105-foot dishes handle much of the country’s communications to and from Europe and the Middle East. And on an isolated stretch of land in remote Arbuckle, California, three similar dishes at the company’s Salt Creek station service the Pacific Rim and Asia.
The former NSA official held his thumb and forefinger close together: “We are that far from a turnkey totalitarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism) state.”
Binney left the NSA in late 2001, shortly after the agency launched its warrantless-wiretapping program. “They violated the Constitution setting it up,” he says bluntly. “But they didn’t care. They were going to do it anyway, and they were going to crucify anyone who stood in the way. When they started violating the Constitution, I couldn’t stay.” Binney says Stellar Wind was far larger than has been publicly disclosed and included not just eavesdropping on domestic phone calls but the inspection of domestic email. At the outset the program recorded 320 million calls a day, he says, which represented about 73 to 80 percent of the total volume of the agency’s worldwide intercepts. The haul only grew from there. According to Binney—who has maintained close contact with agency employees until a few years ago—the taps in the secret rooms dotting the country are actually powered by highly sophisticated software programs that conduct “deep packet inspection,” examining Internet traffic as it passes through the 10-gigabit-per-second cables at the speed of light.
The software, created by a company called Narus that’s now part of Boeing, is controlled remotely from NSA headquarters at Fort Meade in Maryland and searches US sources for target addresses, locations, countries, and phone numbers, as well as watch-listed names, keywords, and phrases in email. Any communication that arouses suspicion, especially those to or from the million or so people on agency watch lists, are automatically copied or recorded and then transmitted to the NSA.
The scope of surveillance expands from there, Binney says. Once a name is entered into the Narus database, all phone calls and other communications to and from that person are automatically routed to the NSA’s recorders. “Anybody you want, route to a recorder,” Binney says. “If your number’s in there? Routed and gets recorded.” He adds, “The Narus device allows you to take it all.” And when Bluffdale is completed, whatever is collected will be routed there for storage and analysis.
According to Binney, one of the deepest secrets of the Stellar Wind program—again, never confirmed until now—was that the NSA gained warrantless access to AT&T’s vast trove of domestic and international billing records, detailed information about who called whom in the US and around the world. As of 2007, AT&T had more than 2.8 trillion records housed in a database at its Florham Park, New Jersey, complex.
Verizon was also part of the program, Binney says, and that greatly expanded the volume of calls subject to the agency’s domestic eavesdropping. “That multiplies the call rate by at least a factor of five,” he says. “So you’re over a billion and a half calls a day.” (Spokespeople for Verizon and AT&T said their companies would not comment on matters of national security.)
After he left the NSA, Binney suggested a system for monitoring people’s communications according to how closely they are connected to an initial target. The further away from the target—say you’re just an acquaintance of a friend of the target—the less the surveillance. But the agency rejected the idea, and, given the massive new storage facility in Utah, Binney suspects that it now simply collects everything. “The whole idea was, how do you manage 20 terabytes of intercept a minute?” he says. “The way we proposed was to distinguish between things you want and things you don’t want.” Instead, he adds, “they’re storing everything they gather.” And the agency is gathering as much as it can.
Once the communications are intercepted and stored, the data-mining begins. “You can watch everybody all the time with data- mining,” Binney says. Everything a person does becomes charted on a graph, “financial transactions or travel or anything,” he says. Thus, as data like bookstore receipts, bank statements, and commuter toll records flow in, the NSA is able to paint a more and more detailed picture of someone’s life.
The NSA also has the ability to eavesdrop on phone calls directly and in real time. According to Adrienne J. Kinne, who worked both before and after 9/11 as a voice interceptor at the NSA facility in Georgia, in the wake of the World Trade Center attacks “basically all rules were thrown out the window, and they would use any excuse to justify a waiver to spy on Americans.” Even journalists calling home from overseas were included. “A lot of time you could tell they were calling their families,” she says, “incredibly intimate, personal conversations.” Kinne found the act of eavesdropping on innocent fellow citizens personally distressing. “It’s almost like going through and finding somebody’s diary,” she says....

[revelarts]

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/04/influential-senator-warned-in-1975-the-national-security-agencys-capability-at-any-time-could-be-turned-around-on-the-american-people-and-no-american-would-have-any-privacy-left.html

Senator Church’s Prophetic Warning


Senator Frank Church – who chaired the famous “Church Committee” into the unlawful FBI Cointel program, and who chaired the Senate Foreign Relations Committee – said in 1975:

“Th[e National Security Agency's] capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn’t matter. There would be no place to hide. could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back.“
Now, the NSA is building a $2 billion dollar facility in Utah which will use the world’s most powerful supercomputer to monitor [I]virtually all phone calls, emails, internet usage, purchases and rentals, break all encryption, and then store everyone’s data permanently.
The former head of the program for the NSA recently held his thumb and forefinger close together, andsaid (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/1):

We are, like, that far from a turnkey totalitarian state
So Senator Church’s warning was prophetic....




Amendment IVThe right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


That was a great idea, maybe some other country will use it one day.

[revelarts]

part 2


-one button and they get all your past e-mails and beginning getting all your new e-mails."
-congress is afraid to speak,
-the DOJ indicts or tries to indict whistle blowers on false pretenses.

God help America
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/4/23/more_secrets_on_growing_state_surveillance


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