Health Law Faces Threat of Undercut From Courts

[Psychoblues]

This could be significant. The people have voted and they have voted for healthcare reform. The best that could be brought out of congress was delivered up for passage and it was passed. Much of what is bad in the law was insisted upon by a conservative minority. Then they voted against it anyway. That is another subject but this will jump up like a rattlesnake and bite them on the ass in a few years.


source: New York Times
by Kevin Sack and Robert Pear
Nov. 26, 2010

WASHINGTON — As the Obama administration presses ahead with the health care law, officials are bracing for the possibility that a federal judge in Virginia will soon reject its central provision as unconstitutional and, in the worst case for the White House, halt its enforcement until higher courts can rule.

The judge, Henry E. Hudson of Federal District Court in Richmond, has promised to rule by the end of the year on the constitutionality of the law’s requirement that most Americans obtain insurance, which takes effect in 2014.

Although administration officials remain confident that it is constitutionally valid to compel people to obtain health insurance, they also acknowledge that Judge Hudson’s preliminary opinions and comments could presage the first ruling against the law.

“He’s asked a number of questions that express skepticism,” said one administration official who is examining whether a ruling against part of the law would undermine other provisions. “We have been trying to think through that set of questions,” said the official, who insisted on anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the case freely............................................ .............................


Much, much more: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/27/us/politics/27health.html?_r=2&hp

Well worth the time and the read. I choose to remain more optimistic than the article reflects.

Psychoblues

[BoogyMan]

The people have voted for reform, not for the enormous albatross Mr. Obama hung around the necks of middle America.

[fj1200]

This could be significant. The people have voted and they have voted for healthcare reform.

:laugh: I guess I missed it when it was on the ballot.

[Kathianne]

Regardless of which partisan is trying to interpret the 'will of the people' via a voting cycle, the question is the constitutionality of compelling individuals into a contract to buy a good or service, whether they want to or not. Show me where in Article I that power given to the legislature?

[Psychoblues]

The people have voted for reform, not for the enormous albatross Mr. Obama hung around the necks of middle America.

I disagree that it is such, BM. President Obama gave up on a number of good ideas like a public option, Medicare nationwide, and hundreds of specifics. It is all in the public records and ready to be made more public when the time is right for it. Right now it would be correctly ignored. Other than political junkies like us the nation is just exhausted on this subject.

Psychoblues


Regardless of which partisan is trying to interpret the 'will of the people' via a voting cycle, the question is the constitutionality of compelling individuals into a contract to buy a good or service, whether they want to or not. Show me where in Article I that power given to the legislature?

Constitutional lawyers and law-makers far smarter and better educated than me will have to answer that question, Kath. The House and Senate that passed that legislation were convinced it would pass muster even if it had to go the long way around to it.

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

Constitutional lawyers and law-makers far smarter and better educated than me will have to answer that question, Kath. The House and Senate that passed that legislation were convinced it would pass muster even if it had to go the long way around to it.

Psychoblues

I'll agree they did, won't be the first time they were wrong though and the courts trimed their wings. There are limits to those two clauses, seems that mandating contracts should be one of them.

[Psychoblues]

I'll agree they did, won't be the first time they were wrong though and the courts trimed their wings. There are limits to those two clauses, seems that mandating contracts should be one of them.

I was hoping for Medicare for everybody. I see people all the time talking about how broke that system is but it still costs less than typical private insurance plans and it applies to the oldest and sickest people in the nation. Insuring everyone in the Medicare system would alleviate that upside down pressure and everyone will benefit, IMHO.

Certainly there will be those that want out of the system and I would support their opting out so long as they would sign a waiver completely eliminating themselves from the tax-payer supported health system.

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

I was hoping for Medicare for everybody. I see people all the time talking about how broke that system is but it still costs less than typical private insurance plans and it applies to the oldest and sickest people in the nation. Insuring everyone in the Medicare system would alleviate that upside down pressure and everyone will benefit, IMHO.

Certainly there will be those that want out of the system and I would support their opting out so long as they would sign a waiver completely eliminating themselves from the tax-payer supported health system.

Psychoblues

Ah, but those people that want to 'opt out' are amongst the healthiest people around. How to cover the sickest without the healthiest at try and sell the savings?

The 'uninsured' are not necessarily uninsurable, therein lies the problem. The vast majority are in their teen through early 30's, either looking for their first job or inbetween jobs. The 'uninsurable' are a differnt case, one we all agree needed to be included in the 'reform', but this plan went way beyond that and now they'll have to sort it out.

[Psychoblues]

Ah, but those people that want to 'opt out' are amongst the healthiest people around. How to cover the sickest without the healthiest at try and sell the savings?

The 'uninsured' are not necessarily uninsurable, therein lies the problem. The vast majority are in their teen through early 30's, either looking for their first job or inbetween jobs. The 'uninsurable' are a differnt case, one we all agree needed to be included in the 'reform', but this plan went way beyond that and now they'll have to sort it out.

And therein lies the huge ironing out process, Kath. We will get through this one way or another. Universal healthcare IS in our future. Now or later but the sooner the better as far as I am concerned.

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

And therein lies the huge ironing out process, Kath. We will get through this one way or another. Universal healthcare IS in our future. Now or later but the sooner the better as far as I am concerned.

Psychoblues

Correct, but within the Constitution.

[Mr. P]

Can't sort this monster out..Scrap it and start over..AND LET THE PEOPLE VOTE ON IT.

[Kathianne]

Can't sort this monster out..Scrap it and start over..AND LET THE PEOPLE VOTE ON IT.

You know I agree with you, but never hurts to listen to the other guy.

[Mr. P]

You know I agree with you, but never hurts to listen to the other guy.
I listened for what, at least a yr an a half, that it was going to been rammed down our throat like it or not..we didn't and said so this month..Loud and clear I think.

I'm also one who thinks it's unconstitutional even if there is no requirement to purchase. It's time we stand up to the ever advancing tentacles of big government.

[Kathianne]

I listened for what, at least a yr an a half, that it was going to been rammed down our throat like it or not..we didn't and said so this month..Loud and clear I think.

I'm also one who thinks it's unconstitutional even if there is no requirement to purchase. It's time we stand up to the ever advancing tentacles of big government.

Again, I agree. Did you see my last post on tea parties? I'm surprised that they came out about both concentrating on what can be done-not going off on countless 'investigations' and now the push towards local for building a base of capable candidates, outside the other parties.

[Psychoblues]

I listened for what, at least a yr an a half, that it was going to been rammed down our throat like it or not..we didn't and said so this month..Loud and clear I think.

I'm also one who thinks it's unconstitutional even if there is no requirement to purchase. It's time we stand up to the ever advancing tentacles of big government.

Like I alluded earlier, Mr. P, those that did their dirt to snafu the health legislation will pay their price later. Now is not the time. Just remember that the records in both the Senate and House of Representatives are public.

The health system that we have now is better than the one we had last year. It is scheduled to get even better in the next few years. I wish that the entire congress had been more serious about genuine reform and all this would have already been accomplished and we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Psychoblues

[Mr. P]

Again, I agree. Did you see my last post on tea parties? I'm surprised that they came out about both concentrating on what can be done-not going off on countless 'investigations' and now the push towards local for building a base of capable candidates, outside the other parties.
I didn't I'll look. Like I said a few days ago (I think) in another tread..the time is right for another party.

[Kathianne]

I didn't I'll look. Like I said a few days ago (I think) in another tread..the time is right for another party.

When I said, 'surprised' I don't mean in general, it's what many have been discussing for over a year. But I am surprised that they seemed to put all on notice before January. It bodes well, I think.

I think there will be another party, what I'm unsure of is whether it will be a third or the ideology will overtake the GOP. I am serious.

[Psychoblues]

When I said, 'surprised' I don't mean in general, it's what many have been discussing for over a year. But I am surprised that they seemed to put all on notice before January. It bodes well, I think.

I think there will be another party, what I'm unsure of is whether it will be a third or the ideology will overtake the GOP. I am serious.

Kath, can you catch me up on what you and Mr. P. are talking about? I think my meds are screwin' my mind up a bit?!?!?

Psychoblues

[Kathianne]

Kath, can you catch me up on what you and Mr. P. are talking about? I think my meds are screwin' my mind up a bit?!?!?

Psychoblues

#17, we segued to tea parties.

[Mr. P]

Like I alluded earlier, Mr. P, those that did their dirt to snafu the health legislation will pay their price later. Now is not the time. Just remember that the records in both the Senate and House of Representatives are public.

The health system that we have now is better than the one we had last year. It is scheduled to get even better in the next few years. I wish that the entire congress had been more serious about genuine reform and all this would have already been accomplished and we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Psychoblues
You bet the record is public..just wait until folks find out what the GOP proposed in a Bipartisan manor that never made it to vote.

I disagree the system is better today than last year..it's still the same health care quality wise..but access is beginning to fade and will fast under this abortion of a new system.

[Psychoblues]

#17, we segued to tea parties.

I'm still having trouble. I think I need some sleep even though I've had about 30 hours in the last 36. Seriously, this newest is deadening my brain to the point I think I'm going to go back to where I was before. At least I felt better then.

Psychoblues

[Mr. P]

When I said, 'surprised' I don't mean in general, it's what many have been discussing for over a year. But I am surprised that they seemed to put all on notice before January. It bodes well, I think.

I think there will be another party, what I'm unsure of is whether it will be a third or the ideology will overtake the GOP. I am serious.
Yeah, I think we'll have a good idea by August.

[Kathianne]

I'm still having trouble. I think I need some sleep even though I've had about 30 hours in the last 36. Seriously, this newest is deadening my brain to the point I think I'm going to go back to where I was before. At least I felt better then.

Psychoblues

Give it time. Those types of meds really do take time to adjust to.

[Psychoblues]

You bet the record is public..just wait until folks find out what the GOP proposed in a Bipartisan manor that never made it to vote.

I disagree the system is better today than last year..it's still the same health care quality wise..but access is beginning to fade and will fast under this abortion of a new system.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject, Mr. P. But you're going to have to accept there has never been any intention whatsoever on the part of the self described conservatives for bipartisanship. They have said from the get go that they hate this President, they hate this Congress and they will not cooperate in any way to the advantage for the American people. OK, that "to the advantage for the American people" phrase is mine but it is nonetheless accurate all things considered.

Psychoblues

[SassyLady]

:laugh: I guess I missed it when it was on the ballot.

I am a non-person, I did not vote for gov funded healthcare.

[Psychoblues]

I am a non-person, I did not vote for gov funded healthcare.

Just because the election was not unanimous, MKP, does not mean that you are a non person. And I know of no insurance, Medicare or whatever, that is exactly government funded.

Psychoblues

[fj1200]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject, Mr. P. But you're going to have to accept there has never been any intention whatsoever on the part of the self described conservatives for bipartisanship. They have said from the get go that they hate this President, they hate this Congress and they will not cooperate in any way to the advantage for the American people. OK, that "to the advantage for the American people" phrase is mine but it is nonetheless accurate all things considered.

Psychoblues

Exactly what did BO want that deserved any bipartisanship? And what were his actions that indicated he wanted any bipartisanship?

[red states rule]

This could be significant. The people have voted and they have voted for healthcare reform. The best that could be brought out of congress was delivered up for passage and it was passed. Much of what is bad in the law was insisted upon by a conservative minority. Then they voted against it anyway. That is another subject but this will jump up like a rattlesnake and bite them on the ass in a few years.


source: New York Times
by Kevin Sack and Robert Pear
Nov. 26, 2010

WASHINGTON — As the Obama administration presses ahead with the health care law, officials are bracing for the possibility that a federal judge in Virginia will soon reject its central provision as unconstitutional and, in the worst case for the White House, halt its enforcement until higher courts can rule.

The judge, Henry E. Hudson of Federal District Court in Richmond, has promised to rule by the end of the year on the constitutionality of the law’s requirement that most Americans obtain insurance, which takes effect in 2014.

Although administration officials remain confident that it is constitutionally valid to compel people to obtain health insurance, they also acknowledge that Judge Hudson’s preliminary opinions and comments could presage the first ruling against the law.

“He’s asked a number of questions that express skepticism,” said one administration official who is examining whether a ruling against part of the law would undermine other provisions. “We have been trying to think through that set of questions,” said the official, who insisted on anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the case freely............................................ .............................


Much, much more: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/27/us/politics/27health.html?_r=2&hp

Well worth the time and the read. I choose to remain more optimistic than the article reflects.

Psychoblues

Every poll I have seen shows more then 50% want Obmacare repealed.

It was Dems who were preventing its passage, and that is why we had Reid and Pelosi openly handing out bribes to buy their votes. Some got "stimulus" money, others got waivers where their state would be exempt from Obamacare

Nowhere in the US Constitution does it state the Feds can force a private citizen to buy any product/service under threat of fines and jail

We see the cost of care going up, Obamacare will bust the budget and ad to the deficit, and insurance companies are cutting coverage.

All because of Obamacare

OK PB, now you can post how all of these FACTS are lies, madeup, and taken out of context as you usually do

[KitchenKitten99]

The biggest problem is most are getting confused with is healthCARE and heath INSURANCE. There is a LARGE difference. EVERYONE has access to healthCARE here in the US. You can go into any clinic and be treated without regards to whether you have insurance or not. However the actual difference is who pays for it. What most refer to as health INSURANCE is actually used more like ‘prepaid health CARE’. Think about it. You don’t (and cannot) use your car insurance for basic maintenance and upkeep or breakdowns. It is there in the case of an accident involving circumstances that impair the vehicle. Other things are covered under your policy as well.

People compare this plan like the government mandating auto insurance. However they are not comparing the same things. The government only mandates that if you choose to use the privilege of operating a vehicle on public roads you must have a license to do so, and carry insurance. If you do not drive on public roads, you DO NOT need to carry auto insurance. You can still drive a vehicle on your own land without insurance. Obama’s plan forces EVERYONE to either obtain private insurance (which will still be restricted to only purchase in your own state, and even more regulation on what can and cannot be covered, etc.) or use the public-funded clinics. This itself forces people to purchase something they might not under normal circumstances, and pay for coverage of something they will never experience in their lifetime (men can't get ovarian cancer, yet they are forced to pay the coverage increase because the Gov't says it must be covered, etc). Insurance is not required to live a normal life and go about daily activities.

[BoogyMan]

I disagree that it is such, BM. President Obama gave up on a number of good ideas like a public option, Medicare nationwide, and hundreds of specifics. It is all in the public records and ready to be made more public when the time is right for it. Right now it would be correctly ignored. Other than political junkies like us the nation is just exhausted on this subject.

Psychoblues

PB, look around you, the only people happy about the healthcare law are the ideologues who see it as a stepping stone to the full socialization of healthcare in America.

Are you actually giving me a "pass it to know what is in it" kind of argument?

[Psychoblues]

PB, look around you, the only people happy about the healthcare law are the ideologues who see it as a stepping stone to the full socialization of healthcare in America.

Are you actually giving me a "pass it to know what is in it" kind of argument?

You do not mention the millions of progressives and liberals that reject the plans and programs passed by the Congress and President as being too accommodating to the insurance industries and not sensitive enough to the needs of the population and the healthcare providers that treat them.

Personally, I don't give a flying fuck about what any reichwinger thinks or says about this issue at this point. As much as they might disagree they had their time in the markup of the legislation. They chose to be disagreeable for the simple purpose of being disagreeable and that is made very clear in only shallow study of the speeches from the respective floors. Deep study leaves no doubt.

Psychoblues

[red states rule]

You do not mention the millions of progressives and liberals that reject the plans and programs passed by the Congress and President as being too accommodating to the insurance industries and not sensitive enough to the needs of the population and the healthcare providers that treat them.

Personally, I don't give a flying fuck about what any reichwinger thinks or says about this issue at this point. As much as they might disagree they had their time in the markup of the legislation. They chose to be disagreeable for the simple purpose of being disagreeable and that is made very clear in only shallow study of the speeches from the respective floors. Deep study leaves no doubt.

Psychoblues


At least you are acting like your leaders Obama, Reid, and Pelosi OB. You do not care what the voters say about Obamacare even after they fired many of the Dems who voted for it

So what Obamacare adds trillions to the debt?

So what is the cost of helathcare increases?

So what if care has to be rationed?

So what if a majority want Obamacare repealed?

Mere details right?

[red states rule]

PB, I do hope you and your fellow elected liberals keep your arrogant attitude right up until the 2012 election on Obamacare and all your other liberal ideas




Most voters continue to favor repeal of the national health care law, and they remain almost evenly divided over whether the law will force them to change their own health insurance coverage.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 57% favor repeal of the health care law passed by Congress in March, with 47% who Strongly Favor it. Thirty-nine percent (39%) oppose repeal, including 29% who are Strongly Opposed. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

These figures are little changed from last week and support for repeal has remained constant for months. In weekly tracking since the bill became law, voter support for repeal has ranged from 50% to 63%.

Among those who voted earlier this month, 59% favored repeal of the health care law.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/health_care_law

[KitchenKitten99]

You do not mention the millions of progressives and liberals that reject the plans and programs passed by the Congress and President as being too accommodating to the insurance industries and not sensitive enough to the needs of the population and the healthcare providers that treat them.

Personally, I don't give a flying fuck about what any reichwinger thinks or says about this issue at this point. As much as they might disagree they had their time in the markup of the legislation. They chose to be disagreeable for the simple purpose of being disagreeable and that is made very clear in only shallow study of the speeches from the respective floors. Deep study leaves no doubt.

Psychoblues

One of the greatest quotes of movie history can sum up these statements:

"Desperation is a STINKY cologne..."

[Psychoblues]

One of the greatest quotes of movie history can sum up these statements:

"Desperation is a STINKY cologne..."

Yeah, I know what you mean, FK99!

Psychoblues

[Mr. P]

Another casualty of Obamacare? Probably. But you can keep your currant plan ...just pay more ..but cost will go down..you'll save money..right? Sure.


Debt Panel Eyes TRICARE Fee Increases

Week of November 29, 2010
Once again the subject of increasing TRICARE (http://www.military.com/benefits/tricare) costs has hit the news -- the latest proposal being offered by the bipartisan Debt Reduction Task Force. One of the stated goals of the bipartisan task force is to reduce the cost of military health care by imposing greater cost-sharing on TRICARE beneficiaries. Some retirees could see their TRICARE premiums increase by as much as $2,000 a year.

[Psychoblues]

Another casualty of Obamacare? Probably. But you can keep your currant plan ...just pay more ..but cost will go down..you'll save money..right? Sure.

Hasn't Tricare been a US military substitute/alternative for decades now? I don't think it has anything to do with Obamacare, whatever you think Obamacare is? Anyways, hopefully those that now use Tricare will have another option that will save them money and allow them to use additional healthcare providers. I understand the present providers are very restricted under Tricare.

Psychoblues

[red states rule]

Yeah, I know what you mean, FK99!

Psychoblues

PB, why not ask these union workers how they feel about Obamacare now

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?29994-Union-Drops-Health-Coverage-for-Workers’-Children

[red states rule]

Hey PB, have you given up on your own thread?

I would be happy to lock it for you if you want me to