more from the religion of peace - Christian Mom "insults" Mohammed - may be killed

[darin]

Mother may be put to death because she's a Christian. Hey Abso - why is this even a news story? What's the deal with Muslims? Why aren't they protesting?



The world watches as a Pakistani woman waits to hear whether an appeals court will save her from the gallows. Asia Bibi, a Christian, was sentenced under a law that critics say should have no part in any modern democracy.

You can see the grief and agony of two young girls who wait to see if the Pakistani government will execute their jailed mother. "Whenever I see her picture I cry", says 12-year-old Isham.

This month a Pakistani court sentenced Isham and Isha's mother, Asia Bibi, to death, not because she killed, injured or stole, but simply because she said something.

Prosecutors say Asia Bibi insulted Islam and the prophet Muhammad. The alleged incident happened while she was picking berries in this field in Itan Wali, a town two hours west of Lahore.

Court records show Bibi was sharing a bucket of drinking water with fellow-workers but when Asia dipped her cup, her fellow-workers refused to drink saying the water was touched by a non-Muslim woman.

Asia Bibi is a Christian. The women argued, and mafia Satar and her sister say they were there and heard Asia's insults. "She said your Muhammad had worms in his mouth before he died", Satar says, a crude way of saying Muhammad was no prophet.

http://www.todaysthv.com/news/natInt/story.aspx?storyid=128487&catid=288

[Psychoblues]

Mother may be put to death because she's a Christian. Hey Abso - why is this even a news story? What's the deal with Muslims? Why aren't they protesting?

What's your solution, dimples? More war? More death and destruction in the name of Christianity v Islam? Trillions of American dollars spent in the religious wars with which we have no business while our own population suffers in hunger, poor education, poor, little or no healthcare, a wrecked market driven economy, hell, dimples, just what on earth is your solution? The entire free world is listening. Or were you just kidding?

Love :laugh2:

Psychoblues

[darin]

my solution is for the GOOD people of Islam to revolt against their oppressive "leaders" and bring the faith into compliance with standards of decency.

[Psychoblues]

my solution is for the GOOD people of Islam to revolt against their oppressive "leaders" and bring the faith into compliance with standards of decency.

First off I want to take back those petty "dimples" things in the first post I made in this thread. Secondly, dmp, I want to remind you that our own versions of Christians and many Christian leaders in this country are plain evil and are an embarrassment to the "Good people of Christianity" but we don't hear much uproar when these jerks do their dirt to little girls, little boys, other men in restroom stalls, and even when many of them stick their noses into foreign affairs in the namesake of "on the mission trail" and because of all that many murders are committed and many fortunes are stolen by whom? The missionaries or their surrogates? Life is complicated, dmp, and the less we interfere the better we will find ourselves. In the same consideration we don't need and should not accept interference. It's the your freedom stops where my nose starts theory. And that includes a whole array of considerations, don't you know?

Psychoblues

[darin]

First off I want to take back those petty "dimples" things in the first post I made in this thread. Secondly, dmp, I want to remind you that our own versions of Christians and many Christian leaders in this country are plain evil and are an embarrassment to the "Good people of Christianity" but we don't hear much uproar when these jerks do their dirt to little girls, little boys, other men in restroom stalls, and even when many of them stick their noses into foreign affairs in the namesake of "on the mission trail" and because of all that many murders are committed and many fortunes are stolen by whom? The missionaries or their surrogates? Life is complicated, dmp, and the less we interfere the better we will find ourselves. In the same consideration we don't need and should not accept interference. It's the your freedom stops where my nose starts theory. And that includes a whole array of considerations, don't you know?

Psychoblues



Description of Red Herring

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. Topic A is under discussion.
2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3. Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim. (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html)

We are talking about Islamic leaders calling/thinking about executing a woman because she allegedly spoke against their religion.

[jimnyc]

We are talking about Islamic leaders calling/thinking about executing a woman because she allegedly spoke against their religion.

The more you reply to the drunkard the worse he gets. Just sayin' He claims to have stopped drinking, but I haven't believed a thing this twit has written in quite some time. He's a troll and nothing more.

As to your subject... This is no surprise as I've seen their fucked up "punishments" to people for petty crimes all over. Abso says people should get a fine or a couple of days in jail for insulting others, but I guess if you insult the Pedoprophet you need to die!!

http://i56.tinypic.com/jgozth.jpg

[Psychoblues]

We are talking about Islamic leaders calling/thinking about executing a woman because she allegedly spoke against their religion.

You inadvertently made a key point that undermines your own case. "Their religion."

Jimbo's mad and I'm glad
But I know what to please him
A bottle of ink, to make him stink
And a ugly little girl to kiss him!!!!!!!!!!

Just trying to save a post space!!!!!!!!!!!

Psychoblues

[jimnyc]

but we don't hear much uproar when these jerks do their dirt to little girls, little boys, other men in restroom stalls,


You inadvertently made a key point that undermines your own case. "Their religion."

Interesting. Out of one side of your mouth you groan about how there isn't much being said about Catholics, then you go on to infer we shouldn't speak out against "their" religion.

Forgetting the fact that you're an idiot - this TO ME has nothing to do with religion. I'm sure even Abso will be along shortly to remind us that nowhere does Islam or the Quran teach killing. So if not from religion, where from? It's clear to me - from scumbags still living in the stone ages that want to rule by fear.

[Psychoblues]

Interesting. Out of one side of your mouth you groan about how there isn't much being said about Catholics, then you go on to infer we shouldn't speak out against "their" religion.

Forgetting the fact that you're an idiot - this TO ME has nothing to do with religion. I'm sure even Abso will be along shortly to remind us that nowhere does Islam or the Quran teach killing. So if not from religion, where from? It's clear to me - from scumbags still living in the stone ages that want to rule by fear.

Holy shit, jimbo!!!! Where do you come up with this "Catholic" shit? Correct me if I'm wrong but I really don't recall making any remarks about Catholics or any particular Christian denomination.

As far as that "ruling by fear" is concerned what did you think all that cowboy "Shock and Awe" crap coming from dickwad that couldn't even complete his own service was all about?

I'm still trying to figure out why you're so mad at me, jimmy. All that anger, hate and misunderstanding kinda works on ya, don't it?

Psychoblues

[jimnyc]

Forgot to post my disclaimer!

** I don't respond to drunken trolls **

[Psychoblues]

Forgot to post my disclaimer!

** I don't respond to drunken trolls **

I am not drunk or drinking, jim. It has been a long time now. And I am not trolling. I think this is a good topic and I dropped in. Then you dropped in and made some very confusing remarks about "Catholic" and "ruling by fear" and that was directed towards me. Now you are going to do the squirrel stomp and refuse to address MY concerns or questions? It ain't as black and white as you try and make it, jim. And that is sad. You are smarter, much smarter than that.

Psychoblues

[jimnyc]

Secondly, dmp, I want to remind you that our own versions of Christians and many Christian leaders in this country are plain evil and are an embarrassment to the "Good people of Christianity" but we don't hear much uproar when these jerks do their dirt to little girls, little boys, other men in restroom stalls, and even when many of them stick their noses into foreign affairs in the namesake of "on the mission trail" and because of all that many murders are committed and many fortunes are stolen by whom


Holy shit, jimbo!!!! Where do you come up with this "Catholic" shit? Correct me if I'm wrong but I really don't recall making any remarks about Catholics or any particular Christian denomination.

Stop being obtuse. You know damn well what you wrote.

[NightTrain]

Stop being obtuse. You know damn well what you wrote.

Actually, Jim, he probably doesn't. Blackouts are a bitch.

[jimnyc]

Actually, Jim, he probably doesn't. Blackouts are a bitch.

LOL - so basically you are saying that he made a post, blacked out, came back to the thread and posted to disagree with me & didn't even notice what he actually wrote, supposedly while sober? Posting blindly perhaps? Or maybe posting so much crap that he can't keep up with his own ramblings? :laugh2:

[revelarts]

First off I want to take back those petty "dimples" things in the first post I made in this thread. Secondly, dmp, I want to remind you that our own versions of Christians and many Christian leaders in this country are plain evil and are an embarrassment to the "Good people of Christianity" but we don't hear much uproar when these jerks do their dirt to little girls, little boys, other men in restroom stalls, and even when many of them stick their noses into foreign affairs in the namesake of "on the mission trail" and because of all that many murders are committed and many fortunes are stolen by whom? The missionaries or their surrogates? Life is complicated, dmp, and the less we interfere the better we will find ourselves. In the same consideration we don't need and should not accept interference. It's the your freedom stops where my nose starts theory. And that includes a whole array of considerations, don't you know?

Psychoblues

If we go with this thinking, which I think is not a complete red hearing, Still you have more of a problem with the murder of the christian. Neither in Europe or the U.S. is Pedophilia or rape legal.
However the murder of a Christian woman in for "insulting" Mohamed is apparently legal and State sponsored.

The other difference is that Pedophilia, rape and murder are CLEARLY against ALL Christian Teachings. Whereas the Killing of Christians for insulting Islam/Mohamed seems to be sanctioned by some factions of popular Islamic beliefs.

Both issues are significant and nullify the point your trying to make.

Not sure what connections your trying to make with missionaries and western imperialism. They are not one and the same. And the connections more complicated than you seem to indicate. But not complicated in the way you want to use it, as tool against making comments denouncing the Murder of people for Christian beliefs under some Islamic laws/traditions around the world.

I'm guessing that your not a christian, but I guess morally you wouldn't have a problem verbally condemning pedophilia in the church. Even reporting it if you knew about it. Even though it's "complicated". I'm not sure why you want to defend a woman getting unjustly murdered just becuase it's under the cover of different religion or a different flag.

[SassyLady]

If we go with this thinking, which I think is not a complete red hearing, Still you have more of a problem with the murder of the christian. Neither in Europe or the U.S. is Pedophilia or rape legal.
However the murder of a Christian woman in for "insulting" Mohamed is apparently legal and State sponsored.

The other difference is that Pedophilia, rape and murder are CLEARLY against ALL Christian Teachings. Whereas the Killing of Christians for insulting Islam/Mohamed seems to be sanctioned by some factions of popular Islamic beliefs.

Both issues are significant and nullify the point your trying to make.

Not sure what connections your trying to make with missionaries and western imperialism. They are not one and the same. And the connections more complicated than you seem to indicate. But not complicated in the way you want to use it, as tool against making comments denouncing the Murder of people for Christian beliefs under some Islamic laws/traditions around the world.

I'm guessing that your not a christian, but I guess morally you wouldn't have a problem verbally condemning pedophilia in the church. Even reporting it if you knew about it. Even though it's "complicated". I'm not sure why you want to defend a woman getting unjustly murdered just becuase it's under the cover of different religion or a different flag.


I know of no Christian religion that supports a law for killing someone for insulting their spiritual leader....so I do not understand the point PB is trying to make .... but, I never understand the point he is trying to make because his point is always to refute the poster and not the subject of the post.

[NightTrain]

LOL - so basically you are saying that he made a post, blacked out, came back to the thread and posted to disagree with me & didn't even notice what he actually wrote, supposedly while sober? Posting blindly perhaps? Or maybe posting so much crap that he can't keep up with his own ramblings? :laugh2:


Yeah, I've seen him do it (and I know you have too) hundreds of times over the years.

He'll be in the midst of another raging bender and post inane and bizarre assertions in dozens of threads with no recollection of it, then disappear when he crawls back up on that wagon.

And he's not sober now. He claimed that to make Kathi give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not buying it. He's wildly out of control again ruining every thread he can manage to click on like he always does in Bender-Mode.

The good news is, your revenue from advertiser clicks probably shoots way up as he's trying to aim for the right link with his mouse. :laugh2:

[abso]

Mother may be put to death because she's a Christian. Hey Abso - why is this even a news story? What's the deal with Muslims? Why aren't they protesting?

i denounce that decision, and i dont support it, nor does islam support it, no verse in Quran at all calls for the death of people who insult Muhammed or the islamic religion, Muhammed was insulted alot by people who didnt believe his message, and he never harmed them or told anyone to kill them, its wrong to insult, but its not a crime, and should never be punished by death at all, that is a very extreme law.

i am sorry, i wont be able to engage in any discussion this week, i will be back next thursday when i finish my exams.

[darin]

i denounce that decision, and i dont support it, nor does islam support it, no verse in Quran at all calls for the death of people who insult Muhammed or the islamic religion, Muhammed was insulted alot by people who didnt believe his message, and he never harmed them or told anyone to kill them, its wrong to insult, but its not a crime, and should never be punished by death at all, that is a very extreme law.

i am sorry, i wont be able to engage in any discussion this week, i will be back next thursday when i finish my exams.

Then what the heck is WRONG with that and other countries, Abso?

What's wrong with insulting Mohammed - wasn't he a man like you and me, however supposedly 'chosen' by Allah? Why would he be so proud as to feel offended if HE were insulted...only the proud can be insulted, brother.

[jimnyc]

i denounce that decision, and i dont support it, nor does islam support it, no verse in Quran at all calls for the death of people who insult Muhammed or the islamic religion, Muhammed was insulted alot by people who didnt believe his message, and he never harmed them or told anyone to kill them, its wrong to insult, but its not a crime, and should never be punished by death at all, that is a very extreme law.

i am sorry, i wont be able to engage in any discussion this week, i will be back next thursday when i finish my exams.

Abso - you stated in another thread that people who insult one another should be fined or jailed for a short amount of time. If that be the case - and you had the authority to do something - what do you think the punishment should be for people who kill women for petty offenses or kill women because they insult Islam/Muhammed?

[abso]

Abso - you stated in another thread that people who insult one another should be fined or jailed for a short amount of time. If that be the case - and you had the authority to do something - what do you think the punishment should be for people who kill women for petty offenses or kill women because they insult Islam/Muhammed?

if someone killed a women or any human being for insulting Islam/Muhammed and i had the authority to punish him, i will punish him by death, which is the just punishment for the crime of killing an innocent.


Then what the heck is WRONG with that and other countries, Abso?

What's wrong with insulting Mohammed - wasn't he a man like you and me, however supposedly 'chosen' by Allah? Why would he be so proud as to feel offended if HE were insulted...only the proud can be insulted, brother.

Insulting Muhammed is like insulting anyone else, its just the number of people getting offended thats more in case of Muhammed or jesus or Moses or other leaders that millions of people believe in, but even if millions believe in someone that doesnt mean that anyone who insults him should be killed, that is a stupid idea, we cant force people to respect each other by killing them.

Muhammed never felled so proud of himself, he was a very humble man who lived among the people as one of them, never even once made people feel that he is a better man or that they are inferior humans.

if he was still alive, he would be very ashamed of what the people who believe in him are doing in his name and in Islam's name, he would hunt them himself if he was here, and i believe its our mission now, as human beings no matter what religion we follow, to hunt anyone who kills in the name of islam or in the name of anything else, to hunt all terrorists and stop them from threatening our way of life.

[darin]

Insulting Muhammed is like insulting anyone else, its just the number of people getting offended thats more in case of Muhammed or jesus or Moses or other leaders that millions of people believe in, but even if millions believe in someone that doesnt mean that anyone who insults him should be killed, that is a stupid idea, we cant force people to respect each other by killing them.

And again, Anyone who gets offended at another's insulting what they believe is doing so from a position of arrogance. Jesus, Muhammed, or anyone. It's absolutely wrong. Course today, Muslims are the only folk threatening violence over it.





Muhammed never felled so proud of himself, he was a very humble man who lived among the people as one of them, never even once made people feel that he is a better man or that they are inferior humans.

if he was still alive, he would be very ashamed of what the people who believe in him are doing in his name and in Islam's name, he would hunt them himself if he was here, and i believe its our mission now, as human beings no matter what religion we follow, to hunt anyone who kills in the name of islam or in the name of anything else, to hunt all terrorists and stop them from threatening our way of life.

:salute:

[OldMercsRule]

What's your solution, dimples? More war? More death and destruction in the name of Christianity v Islam?

Christianity v Islam? Does yer brain work?



Trillions of American dollars spent in the religious wars with which we have no business while our own population suffers in hunger, poor education, poor, little or no healthcare, a wrecked market driven economy, hell, dimples, just what on earth is your solution?

Islamic radicals (following the specific language of their Koran), (which make up as much as 10% of the 1.5 Billion Muslims), flew some jets into American assets, just in case you were napping: Einstein. :laugh2:

More welfare, which you grow the gubment Progressives always want is not a solution either. :laugh2:



The entire free world is listening. Or were you just kidding?

Love :laugh2:

Psychoblues

It would be nice if Islam modernized as Christianity did 500 years ago: Sport. :laugh2:

[OldMercsRule]

i denounce that decision, and i dont support it,

Good for you. If there were more moderate Muslims with courage your religion could modernize as Christianity did 500 years ago. Hopefully that will happen before a lot of glass is made in various parts of the world over the next few decades.


nor does islam support it, no verse in Quran at all calls for the death of people who insult Muhammed or the islamic religion,

Hmmmmmm, maybe ya need ta do some readin' then........

Islam QA disagrees, and uses both Qur'an and Hadith to make its argument:

I heard on a tape that whoever insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) should be executed even if he shows that he has repented. Should he be killed as a hadd punishment or because of kufr? If his repentance is sincere, will Allaah forgive him or will he go to Hell and his repentance will be of no avail?
Praise be to Allaah.

The answer to this question may be given by addressing the two following issues:

1 - The ruling on one who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

The scholars are unanimously agreed that a Muslim who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) becomes a kaafir and an apostate who is to be executed. This consensus was narrated by more than one of the scholars, such as Imaam Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, Ibn al-Mundhir, al-Qaadi 'Iyaad, al-Khattaabi and others. Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/13-16

This ruling is indicated by the Qur'aan and Sunnah.

...
From: Robert Spencer 11/18/2010.


Muhammed was insulted alot by people who didnt believe his message, and he never harmed them or told anyone to kill them, its wrong to insult, but its not a crime, and should never be punished by death at all, that is a very extreme law.

Wow, you sure don't have much knowledge of history. Hit the books. Pay particular attention to the period from the last ten years of Muhammed's life, (where he took a nine year old wife BTW), among other things; until the early middle ages after Muslim armies ran into Charlemagne. Then tell me again how Muhammed or his legions never harmed anyone. :laugh2:


i am sorry, i wont be able to engage in any discussion this week, i will be back next thursday when i finish my exams.

I will look forward to your reply. JR

[Kathianne]

I must agree with the above, everything points that way.

[darin]

OldMercs....

I get what yuo're saying...but the thing is - it's not useful to pull verses out and claim those are being taught. The Old Testament is chock-full of specific instructions to one or two ppl which Christians have taken to mean for EVERYBODY. :(

[OldMercsRule]

OldMercs....

I get what yuo're saying...

Not sure ya do DMP.


but the thing is - it's not useful to pull verses out and claim those are being taught.

Not just written and taught in modern times, butt: acted upon fer a continuous 1500 years: DMP!


The Old Testament is chock-full of specific instructions to one or two ppl which Christians have taken to mean for EVERYBODY. :(

Islam (1500 years + or -), Christianity (2000 years + or -), Judaism (4000 years = or -) all have very old scripture that if taken literally states some profoundly "old school" concepts. The Christians and the Jews have modernized, (a very bloody process), and do not practice those "old school" concepts any longer, (concubines et al).

Islam, (an aggressive military type world domination dogma), is a whole different proposition, (and unlike the other two religions) a "full meal deal" STATE AND CHURCH COMBINE FOR A 24-7 corntrol of every aspect of the average Muslim's life. ISLAM means SUBMISSION! No joke!

If Islam had the ability it would have dominated the known world in 800 to 900 AD. They have not given up their quest, and if they aquire the means will do the deal. I hope people can wake up, read the plain as day lessons of history and draw their own cornclusions, as I have done.

Muslims can legally have four wives, (I know a number of people, [men] who live in America with multiple wives here in 2010). Muslims can and do execute women for adultry, kill in the name of their God, kill innocents for non belief in 2010 not 700 AD and have done so continuously. They also kill "infidels" with zero legal cornsequence in 2010 in many places in the world, and have for 1500 years.

I stand by my post 100%. Please tell me where you find my prior statement false or missleading in any way shape or form. JR

[abso]

Hmmmmmm, maybe ya need ta do some readin' then........
Islam QA disagrees, and uses both Qur'an and Hadith to make its argument:
I heard on a tape that whoever insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) should be executed even if he shows that he has repented. Should he be killed as a hadd punishment or because of kufr? If his repentance is sincere, will Allaah forgive him or will he go to Hell and his repentance will be of no avail?
Praise be to Allaah.

No, i am very sure of what my holy book says, and not just because you heared something on tape then its true, no verse in the Quran at all asks for killing who insults Muhammed, many people insulted him, people who didnt believe in him, and the Quran never said that he should kill them or that anyone else should kill them for insulting Muhammed, there is no such law in Islam.

what you heared is just strictly a personal opinion, someone who thinks that he should kill anyone who insults Muhammed, but not because a Muslim think that he should do that, that doesnt mean that Quran told him to do so, not all our actions are allowed by our holy books, or we all will be saints which we are not.

you can narrate stories as much as you like, but with all due respect, no one will be ever able to verify them, what i only believe in is My Holy book and what it tells me, and no verse in it asks for the blood of anyone who insult Muhammed, so when you try to argue with me about Islam, please only use Quran verses, even the Hadith is not all verified and we can never be certain of its origin.



[al-Tawbah 9:64-66]
This verse clearly states that mocking Allaah, His verses and His Messenger constitutes kufr, so that applies even more so to insulting. The verse also indicates that whoever belittles the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is also a kaafir [unbeliever], whether he was serious or joking.

The verse you mention just means that anyone who mocks Allah or Muhammed means that he has disbelieved in Islam, and thats true, if i joke about Muhammed it means that i dont believe him to be my prophet, but the verse doesnt call for the death of anyone who insults Muhammed or even Allah.

the person who runs the site "www.islamqa.com (http://www.islamqa.com)" is not an Imam, he is a petroleum engineer who just happens to read about religion and in this site he consider himself an Imam and tell people his opinion about the matters they ask him about, he is not the one to ask when you need an answer about islam.

anyway he is from KSA, and they are very strict there, i think you should try to ask more moderate muslims, instead of copying the answers of strict muslims which you dont personally like, if you like moderate muslims like me, then please start listening to them, instead of the strict ones who have strict opinions based on personal feelings, and not based on any verse in Quran at all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and by the way, not that i really care about sources, but when "OldMercsRule" copy a whole long article, without posting the source, he didnt get his post deleted, while when i copy long articles, they get trimmed even if i post the source, and when i post short articles without the source, the post get deleted, so i guess that i will be right to wonder why his post didnt get deleted because he didnt post the link to his source.

anyway, here is the source:
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809

it would be nice to feel that everyone is being treated equally in this forum, which is something that i dont see happening at all.

[abso]

I must agree with the above, everything points that way.

so you agree with strict muslims instead of moderate ones ?

they say that people who insult Muhammed should be killed

i say that people who insult Muhammed should never be killed

so who do you agree with, me or them !!!!

[abso]

OldMercs....

I get what yuo're saying...but the thing is - it's not useful to pull verses out and claim those are being taught. The Old Testament is chock-full of specific instructions to one or two ppl which Christians have taken to mean for EVERYBODY. :(

actually he didnt pull any verse at all, he just pulled some talking done by some Imams, but no verse at all from the quran except the one that says that people who insult Muhammed or Allah are not muslims, which is true of course, but it never said to kill them or harm them in any way, and i dare him to find me any verse in the Quran which says to kill people who insult Muhammed.

[Kathianne]

Abso, seems that Islam goes pretty circular in the teachings:

http://www.muslimconverts.com/insulting/punishment_for_those_who_insult_prophet.htm

Not an anti-Islamic site, far from it.


What to do When people insult the Prophet (peace be upon him)


Question

There is no one among us who is unaware of what the Christians say defaming the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and we are not unaware either of the gheerah (protective jealousy) of the young men of the Muslim ummah towards their religion and their Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Is it permissible to respond to those who defame the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) by insulting the speaker, knowing that I insulted one of them and some of my relatives advised me not to do that again, because it will make them defame and mock him even more, so their sin will be on me?.


Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Defaming the Prophet [an error occurred while processing this directive] (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is a kind of kufr. If that is done by a Muslim then it is apostasy on his part, and the authorities have to defend the cause of Allaah and His Messenger [an error occurred while processing this directive] (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) by executing the one who defamed him. If the one who defamed him repents openly and is sincere, that will benefit him before Allaah, although his repentance does not waive the punishment for defaming the Prophet [an error occurred while processing this directive] (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which is execution.

If the person who defames him is a non-Muslim living under a treaty with the Muslim state, then this is a violation of the treaty and he must be executed, but that should be left to the authorities. ... (www.islam-qa.com)

[jimnyc]

and by the way, not that i really care about sources, but when "OldMercsRule" copy a whole long article, without posting the source, he didnt get his post deleted, while when i copy long articles, they get trimmed even if i post the source, and when i post short articles without the source, the post get deleted, so i guess that i will be right to wonder why his post didnt get deleted because he didnt post the link to his source.

anyway, here is the source:
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809

it would be nice to feel that everyone is being treated equally in this forum, which is something that i dont see happening at all.

You REPEATEDLY posted entire articles without a source. Apparently no one reported OldMercs post or he too would have been asked to provide a source.

Furthermore, read the rules AGAIN, bomb boy. Stop yer complaining on the public side of the forums. If you have a problem with the way the board is ran, or decisions we make - contact any staff member.

[Kathianne]

You REPEATEDLY posted entire articles without a source. Apparently no one reported OldMercs post or he too would have been asked to provide a source.

Furthermore, read the rules AGAIN, bomb boy. Stop yer complaining on the public side of the forums. If you have a problem with the way the board is ran, or decisions we make - contact any staff member.

I didn't see Old Mercs or I would have. The post I did above was to give Abso something to work with, but I think his complaint about whole works is fair and I'll edit myself.

Looking back on the thread, Abso, I apologize regarding not editing. I guess it's easier to not notice when in agreement with something, than not. I did edit it down and will try and be more careful in the future.

[abso]

Islam, (an aggressive military type world domination dogma), is a whole different proposition, (and unlike the other two religions) a "full meal deal" STATE AND CHURCH COMBINE FOR A 24-7 corntrol of every aspect of the average Muslim's life. ISLAM means SUBMISSION! No joke!

If Islam had the ability it would have dominated the known world in 800 to 900 AD. They have not given up their quest, and if they aquire the means will do the deal. I hope people can wake up, read the plain as day lessons of history and draw their own cornclusions, as I have done.

This part, i dont have to reply to, because you seem to have no idea about what islam is or what it asks from its followers, we are not controlled by religion at all, and i dont need to say anything more than that for now.



Muslims can legally have four wives, (I know a number of people, [men] who live in America with multiple wives here in 2010). Muslims can and do execute women for adultry, kill in the name of their God, kill innocents for non belief in 2010 not 700 AD and have done so continuously. They also kill "infidels" with zero legal cornsequence in 2010 in many places in the world, and have for 1500 years.

whats your problem with allowing 4 wifes, do you have a problem with that ???

its not obligatory to have 4 wifes, its just an option if you want to, if you think its wrong to have more than one wife then lets explore the problem.

you have more than 5 million women more than men in just USA, so even if every man marry a women, there will be still 5 million unmarried women, now you can also account for the number of gays and number of males serving long prison time.

in other countries millions of women will not be able to find any men by your logic.

so islam doesnt force anyone to marry more than one women, it just provide a solution to an existing problem, which is the unbalance in women and men numbers.

most muslim countries does not excute for adultery, that law is only functional in very few areas in the world, and by the way, even your bible have the same law.

Islam does not have any rule that orders to kill any disbelievers, please tell me which areas does that !!!

and there is not even a single islamic country in the world which allows to kill infidels at all, please stop making your own facts.

please understand that Islam and muslims are very distinctive subjects, Islam is the religion, while muslims are the people, and the people can go wrong, and can invent laws for themselfs, can disregard some rules and abide by others of their own, can convince themselfs of things that untrue, can legalise some rules that are forbidden within their religion, they are just people, who can be as evil as satan himself or can be good humans, and it all depends on our choice not on our religion.





I stand by my post 100%. Please tell me where you find my prior statement false or missleading in any way shape or form. JR

[abso]

I didn't see Old Mercs or I would have. The post I did above was to give Abso something to work with, but I think his complaint about whole works is fair and I'll edit myself.

Looking back on the thread, Abso, I apologize regarding not editing. I guess it's easier to not notice when in agreement with something, than not. I did edit it down and will try and be more careful in the future.

thanks for the apology, although i dont actually need it, because i dont really care if someone posts his source or not, as i can find it in 10 second by using google, and i dont care if someone makes his article short or long, i actually prefer if he copy the whole article, but what i need is just an equal treatment, and i dont need people to send me neg rep comment saying "Are you still here?" which is something that i recieved a while ago.

[Kathianne]

thanks for the apology, although i dont actually need it, because i dont really care if someone posts his source or not, as i can find it in 10 second by using google, and i dont care if someone makes his article short or wrong, i actually prefer if he copy the whole article, but what i need is just an equal treatment, and i dont need people to send me neg rep comment saying "Are you still here?" which is something that i revieved a while ago.

It's really a legal issue, fair use and copyright laws.

[darin]

thanks for the apology, although i dont actually need it, because i dont really care if someone posts his source or not, as i can find it in 10 second by using google, and i dont care if someone makes his article short or wrong, i actually prefer if he copy the whole article, but what i need is just an equal treatment, and i dont need people to send me neg rep comment saying "Are you still here?" which is something that i revieved a while ago.

If folks are abusive or straight terrible via the REP system let me know, please, abso?

re: Entire articles...doing so violates fair use guidelines with regard to copyright law. :)

[abso]

You REPEATEDLY posted entire articles without a source. Apparently no one reported OldMercs post or he too would have been asked to provide a source.

Furthermore, read the rules AGAIN, bomb boy. Stop yer complaining on the public side of the forums. If you have a problem with the way the board is ran, or decisions we make - contact any staff member.

i will ignore the fact that you really have no manners at all by calling me bomb boy while you yourself admitted many times that i am just a regular moderate muslim who likes peace.

anyway, i rarly posted articles without sources, it happened only once or twice, because i always provide source, and more than two or three sources for my article at some times, i have just been warned to provide a source a couple of times, not all the time.

and i dont post entire articles anymore, i just post parts from each page of each source i use, and that have been my policy since the first warning of posting an entire article, so i dont do it all the time.

and about complaining, i am not posting any complain at all, i am just talking to an admin who posted a thank you to a post which violate the rules in being long and without any source, i was just pointing at something that he missed, but i dont want the post to be deleted or trimmed or anything, although i now abide by that rule, i dont really care about it, and i dont care if others abide by it or not, i just abide by it so that people like you can concentrate on the asubject instead of talking about rules violation and deleting my post.


If folks are abusive or straight terrible via the REP system let me know, please, abso?

re: Entire articles...doing so violates fair use guidelines with regard to copyright law. :)

thanks, but there is no problem, i dont pay attention to any neg rep, i dont care about rep at all, i am just here to talk to people, and to spend some good time in debating, not to argue or have quarrels with anyone.


Abso, seems that Islam goes pretty circular in the teachings:

http://www.muslimconverts.com/insulting/punishment_for_those_who_insult_prophet.htm

Not an anti-Islamic site, far from it.

as you can see, the source of the answer is "www.islam-qa.com (http://www.islam-qa.com)", which is run by someone who think that he knows everything about religion while he only studied petroleum engineering so he should stick with it instead of incentivizing people to be violent to others.

he is just a very strict muslim who thinks that his radical thoughts is the true thoughts of the islamic religion which is not, if there is anyone who need punishment its those people who tell others to be violent, people like the person who runs this site.

if anyone shares the blame in any sin, its not the muslim who dont insult back whem Muhammed is insulted, its this Imam who shares the blame in any crime or murder that happens in result of his own words, he is directly incentivizing muslims to be violent to others, which is a very wrong thing and i denounce his actions as a muslim who loves peace and denounce any hatred or violence in our life.

he is giving every radical muslim an excuse to kill, people like him is the exact kind i despise, the people who plays with other's minds, and turn them into terrorists, how long do they really think it will take to turn someone who listen to them into terrorist who will blow up a cafe full of 50 people just if only 1 person in there has insulted Muhammed.

[Kathianne]

as you can see, the source of the answer is "www.islam-qa.com (http://www.islam-qa.com)", which is run by someone who think that he knows everything about religion while he only studied petroleum engineering so he should stick with it instead of incentivizing people to be violent to others.

he is just a very strict muslim who thinks that his radical thoughts is the true thoughts of the islamic religion which is not, if there is anyone who need punishment its those people who tell others to be violent, people like the person who runs this site.

if anyone shares the blame in any sin, its not the muslim who dont insult back whem Muhammed is insulted, its this Imam who shares the blame in any crime or murder that happens in result of his own words, he is directly incentivizing muslims to be violent to others, which is a very wrong thing and i denounce his actions as a muslim who loves peace and denounce any hatred or violence in our life.

and yet those are the sites that are quoting your religious books. The moderates like yourself repeat that terror is wrong, BUT so is Israel, US/allies being here, there, etc., which by nature is giving comfort to those who commit the acts in the name of your religion.

[abso]

and yet those are the sites that are quoting your religious books. The moderates like yourself repeat that terror is wrong, BUT so is Israel, US/allies being here, there, etc., which by nature is giving comfort to those who commit the acts in the name of your religion.

i dont understand what you mean by the seocond part of your reply, but anyway about my holy book, anyone can quote it, can you find me one verse that says to kill anyone who insult Muhammed ?

those Imams says that insulting Muhammed means two situations:

1- if the person who insulted them is a muslim, then by doing this he has committed apostasy, so he should be killed.

2- if the person who insulted Muhammed is christian or jew or anything else, then he also should be killed.


while in both situation i can easily provide my argument that they have no verse at all from the Quran to support any situation of the above two.

they dont even have any verse in the Quran that says that any muslim who leave Islam should be killed, there is no verse in the Quran that says that, so apostasy in Quran is not pusnished by anything, who want to be a muslim then he is welcome, and who wants to leave it, he can go, thats my believe, and thats what in the Quran.

about the second situation, there is no verse at all in the Quran that says we should kill any christian or jew or any person for insulting Muhammed, alot of disbelievers and jews insulted Muhammed at his time, and he never called for their death, he made peace pacts with them.


so for a direct reply to anyone who says that muslims must kill anyone who insult Muhammed, i say that there is no verse in Quran supporting their claim.

for anyone who says that any Muslim who insult Muhammed has committed apostasy, i agree with them.

but for anyone who says that Muslims who insult Muhammed must be killed because they have committed apostasy, then i simply say that there is no verse in the Quran telling us that we should kill people who leave islam.

[darin]

thanks, but there is no problem, i dont pay attention to any neg rep, i dont care about rep at all, i am just here to talk to people, and to spend some good time in debating, not to argue or have quarrels with anyone.



Again, if you or any user feels folks are using the rep system to harass, holler.

[Kathianne]

i dont understand what you mean by the seocond part of your reply, but anyway about my holy book, anyone can quote it, can you find me one verse that says to kill anyone who insult Muhammed ?

those Imams says that insulting Muhammed means two situations:

1- if the person who insulted them is a muslim, then by doing this he has committed apostasy, so he should be killed.

2- if the person who insulted Muhammed is christian or jew or anything else, then he also should be killed.


while in both situation i can easily provide my argument that they have no verse at all from the Quran to support any situation of the above two.

they dont even have any verse in the Quran that says that any muslim who leave Islam should be killed, there is no verse in the Quran that says that, so apostasy in Quran is not pusnished by anything, who want to be a muslim then he is welcome, and who wants to leave it, he can go, thats my believe, and thats what in the Quran.

about the second situation, there is no verse at all in the Quran that says we should kill any christian or jew or any person for insulting Muhammed, alot of disbelievers and jews insulted Muhammed at his time, and he never called for their death, he made peace pacts with them.


so for a direct reply to anyone who says that muslims must kill anyone who insult Muhammed, i say that there is no verse in Quran supporting their claim.

for anyone who says that any Muslim who insult Muhammed has committed apostasy, i agree with them.

but for anyone who says that Muslims who insult Muhammed must be killed because they have committed apostasy, then i simply say that there is no verse in the Quran telling us that we should kill people who leave islam.

So the only writings which are pertinent to Islam is the Quran? Seems others are often brought up, are they false?

[abso]

So the only writings which are pertinent to Islam is the Quran? Seems others are often brought up, are they false?

false or not is not something i can be sure of, but since there is always a doubt about them, as they are only stories told by people through generations or books written by people who can pervert the truth as they wish or they can write it as it is, its just that in Islam, there is alot of books, and i learned to ignore nearly everything except my Quran, which is unchanged since it was written 1400 years ago, and because there is always only one version of it, there is no two different Qurans on earth, you wont find a single Quran with different number or verses, less or more, they are all the same.

thats why i always choose to pay attention to the Quran only, as muslims, Quran is our guidline, not other books written by any Imam who wants to document his thoughts about radical Islam and call it the true way of muslims.

in my life, i learned to use my mind when it comes to religion, when an Imam say something that i see as a good action, i abide by it, and when an Imam say something that i dont see as a good action, i denounce it, thats all.

[Kathianne]

false or not is not something i can be sure of, but since there is always a doubt about them, as they are only stories told by people through generations or books written by people who can pervert the truth as they wish or they can write it as it is, its just that in Islam, there is alot of books, and i learned to ignore nearly everything except my Quran, which is unchanged since it was written 1400 years ago, and because there is always only one version of it, there is no two different Qurans on earth, you wont find a single Quran with different number or verses, less or more, they are all the same.

thats why i always choose to pay attention to the Quran only, as muslims, Quran is our guidline, not other books written by any Imam who wants to document his thoughts about radical Islam and call it the true way of muslims.

in my life, i learned to use my mind when it comes to religion, when an Imam say something that i see as a good action, i abide by it, and when an Imam say something that i dont see as a good action, i denounce it, thats all.

So you do not use any of the other texts? How many Muslims are like that?

[abso]

So you do not use any of the other texts? How many Muslims are like that?

most of the muslims only use Quran and Hadith, only a monority is interested in reading other resources from Imams and so on, there are many muslims who dont even read the quran or the hadith, they just live by the good virtues like anyone in any other religion while they have no interest in reading the quran.

[BoogyMan]

most of the muslims only use Quran and Hadith, only a monority is interested in reading other resources from Imams and so on, there are many muslims who dont even read the quran or the hadith, they just live by the good virtues like anyone in any other religion while they have no interest in reading the quran.

Can you explain what is meant in the following references, abso?

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=2%3A191&size=First+100

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=9%3A5&size=First+100

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=9%3A29&size=First+100

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=9%3A30&size=First+100

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=8%3A12&size=First+100

Just a few to consider.

[abso]

Can you explain what is meant in the following references, abso?

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=2%3A191&size=First+100

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=9%3A5&size=First+100

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=9%3A29&size=First+100

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=9%3A30&size=First+100

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=8%3A12&size=First+100

Just a few to consider.

for the first verse you posted the verse number 2:191:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=2%3A191&size=First+100

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
<HR>
You should read the verse before it and the two verses after it:

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (190)

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (191)

But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
(192)

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. (193)

the verses were simply about the disbeliever who harm muslims and fight them just because they choosed Islam as their religion instead of worshiping stones.

the verses say to kill anyone who try to kill muslims, and to retrieve their land that was taken from them by driving them out of it because of their religion, but if those people stopped fighting muslims and persecuting them, then the muslims should also stop fighting, because Allah does not like aggression and muslims should never start any war and never to be the aggressor.

------------------------------------------------------------------

secondly you posted verse number 9:5

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=9%3A5&size=First+100

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


009.001 A (declaration) of immunity from God and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances

009.004 (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

009.006 If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

009.007 As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God doth love the righteous.

009.012 But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.

009.013 Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Apostle, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

in this verse Allah tells the Muslims to fight only the people who break the treaties with the muslims by being the first to begin the aggression.

and if they respect the treaty, then muslims should respect it too, and never be the first to attack.

whats said in the verse you posted, is that in the sacred months, we are forbidden to fight, so we should wait until the end of the sacred months then fight the people who broke their treaties with muslims and attacked muslims, so its a verse that speak about war, not to go and search for every pagan and kill them, if a pagan wants to worship stones or anything else then its his choice, all he has to do is to fulfil his oath and treaty and not to attack muslims, then he wont be attacked, Muslims are never allowed to begin the attack.

[abso]

Can you explain what is meant in the following references, abso?

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=9%3A29&size=First+100

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=9%3A30&size=First+100

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=8%3A12&size=First+100

Just a few to consider.

[9.29] Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily.

the third verse you posted is about the non muslims who lived in the islamic lands at that time, it just says that they have to pay taxes then they can live there peacefully, but if they refuse to pay taxes then to fight them until they pay it or leave the land if they refuse to pay the taxes.

---------------------------------------------------------

the fourth verse by the way is not translated correctly at its end, the verse does not say "may allah destroy them".

And the Jews, said, "Uzair is the son of Allah" and the Christians said 'Masih (Christ) is the son of Allah' These things, they utter with their mouths. They imitate the sayings of the infidels before them. Allah assail them, whither they are perverting?

the verse simply means that Allah has no son, thats what we believe in Islam, that christ is the messenger and prophet of Allah but not his son, he is the son of Mary, and Allah has no partner and we shouldnt consider him as a human who can have a son, he is our GOD who created us all and he is none's father.

Allah has no father or mother or brother or sister or wife or son or daughter, he is the one and only GOD.

------------------------------------------------------------

the last verse you posted 8:12

When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. (12)

this verse speaks about war, he tells angels to make muslims stand firm in the battleground, and that he will throw fear into the hearts of the disbelievers who attacked the muslims, i think the verse was speaking about a certain battle which i dont remember it, but anyway, the verse doesn't ask muslims at all to kill everyone who disbelieve, it was specifically talking about a certain war in which the muslims was fighting people who attacked them first.

[BoogyMan]

Thanks for your views, abso, at least you will post them which is a good thing.

[abso]

Thanks for your views, abso, at least you will post them which is a good thing.

you are welcome, i am always willing to post my views on Quran verses to anyone who adress me respectfully. :salute:

[OldMercsRule]

No, i am very sure of what my holy book says, and not just because you heared something on tape then its true, no verse in the Quran at all asks for killing who insults Muhammed, many people insulted him, people who didnt believe in him, and the Quran never said that he should kill them or that anyone else should kill them for insulting Muhammed, there is no such law in Islam.

The Quran is similar in many ways to the holy books of Judaism and Christianity. They were all written a long time ago and go hand in hand with verbal traditions as well. There are passages in direct conflict, and in the case of the Quran there is an accepted way to deal with those passages by giving Muhammed's words, (from later in his life), precidence over the earlier words.

The fact is as Muhammed gained considerable military success against his enemies, (non believers), he became much more beligerant and so did his words.

The Quran is so exhaustive, (as are the Jewish works and Christian works), followers can find scriptures to back up what they wish to say in various areas of the great work.

It is the job of Moderates, (as I accept that you are), to modernize the faith and make the militant versions of interpritation unacceptable as the Jews and Christians have done many years ago and a significant cost in terms of blood and suffering.


what you heared is just strictly a personal opinion, someone who thinks that he should kill anyone who insults Muhammed, but not because a Muslim think that he should do that, that doesnt mean that Quran told him to do so, not all our actions are allowed by our holy books, or we all will be saints which we are not.

A "personal opinion" that has dominated your religion since the seventh century.


you can narrate stories as much as you like, but with all due respect, no one will be ever able to verify them, what i only believe in is My Holy book and what it tells me, and no verse in it asks for the blood of anyone who insult Muhammed, so when you try to argue with me about Islam, please only use Quran verses, even the Hadith is not all verified and we can never be certain of its origin.

I have shown the dominate intrepretation as evidenced by massive riots all over the world 1500 years after Muhammed's death.


The verse you mention just means that anyone who mocks Allah or Muhammed means that he has disbelieved in Islam, and thats true, if i joke about Muhammed it means that i dont believe him to be my prophet, but the verse doesnt call for the death of anyone who insults Muhammed or even Allah.

Apostate Muslims are routinely killed. Surely you are aware of that.


the person who runs the site "www.islamqa.com (http://www.islamqa.com)" is not an Imam, he is a petroleum engineer who just happens to read about religion and in this site he consider himself an Imam and tell people his opinion about the matters they ask him about, he is not the one to ask when you need an answer about islam.

I was not aware of that site. I stated my source: Robert Spencer.


anyway he is from KSA, and they are very strict there, i think you should try to ask more moderate muslims, instead of copying the answers of strict muslims which you dont personally like,

Please read my exact words. You can't tell what I like or dislike.



if you like moderate muslims like me,

I do.


then please start listening to them,

I do.


instead of the strict ones who have strict opinions based on personal feelings, and not based on any verse in Quran at all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "strict ones" are my enemies, and the Moderates seem affraid, (which I don't blame as the "strict ones" are both brutal and ruthless).

The "strict ones" have changed the modern world since 1979, and may get their wish of unlimited war, which will be a real problem for survival of advanced civilizaton.

The President of Iran seems to see himself as a catalyst for his version of end times, and I see the potential conflict he wishes to bring as a real threat to the world we now know.


and by the way, not that i really care about sources, but when "OldMercsRule" copy a whole long article,

I did not copy and paste the whole article, and Kathianne has changed it, (as she does with many of my posts).


without posting the source,

Ya must not have seen where I cited ROBERT SPENCER.


he didnt get his post deleted,

Look again. I intentionally DID NOT post the entire article, only the portion germane to this debate, but: Kathianne still changed it.


while when i copy long articles, they get trimmed even if i post the source, and when i post short articles without the source, the post get deleted, so i guess that i will be right to wonder why his post didnt get deleted because he didnt post the link to his source.

I didn't realize I had to post a link. I posted the source and the date, My = bad.


anyway, here is the source:
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809

Not the one I used: sorry. Try this:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/


it would be nice to feel that everyone is being treated equally in this forum, which is something that i dont see happening at all.

This is a fairly decent forum, none are perfect.

Respectfully, JR

[Kathianne]

The Quran is similar in many ways to the holy books of Judaism and Christianity. They were all written a long time ago and go hand in hand with verbal traditions as well. There are passages in direct conflict, and in the case of the Quran there is an accepted way to deal with those passages by giving Muhammed's words, (from later in his life), precidence over the earlier words.

The fact is as Muhammed gained considerable military success against his enemies, (non believers), he became much more beligerant and so did his words.

The Quran is so exhaustive, (as are the Jewish works and Christian works), followers can find scriptures to back up what they wish to say in various areas of the great work.

It is the job of Moderates, (as I accept that you are), to modernize the faith and make the militant versions of interpritation unacceptable as the Jews and Christians have done many years ago and a significant cost in terms of blood and suffering.



A "personal opinion" that has dominated your religion since the seventh century.



I have shown the dominate intrepretation as evidenced by massive riots all over the world 1500 years after Muhammed's death.



Apostate Muslims are routinely killed. Surely you are aware of that.



I was not aware of that site. I stated my source: Robert Spencer.



Please read my exact words. You can't tell what I like or dislike.




I do.



I do.



The "strict ones" are my enemies, and the Moderates seem affraid, (which I don't blame as the "strict ones" are both brutal and ruthless).

The "strict ones" have changed the modern world since 1979, and may get their wish of unlimited war, which will be a real problem for survival of advanced civilizaton.

The President of Iran seems to see himself as a catalyst for his version of end times, and I see the potential conflict he wishes to bring as a real threat to the world we now know.



I did not copy and paste the whole article, and Kathianne has changed it, (as she does with many of my posts).



Ya must not have seen where I cited ROBERT SPENCER.



Look again. I intentionally DID NOT post the entire article, only the portion germane to this debate, but: Kathianne still changed it.



I didn't realize I had to post a link. I posted the source and the date, My = bad.



Not the one I used: sorry. Try this:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/



This is a fairly decent forum, none are perfect.

Respectfully, JR

Questioning moderation is not permitted-see rules. This accusation is simply untrue and unfair. I'll not delete but will refer to administrators.

[OldMercsRule]

You REPEATEDLY posted entire articles without a source. Apparently no one reported OldMercs post or he too would have been asked to provide a source.

Furthermore, read the rules AGAIN, bomb boy.

Wow, is this called for?

I enjoy this man's posts, and I hope we could all try to be gracious to each other, I realise I call people Einstein et al from time to time, MY = BAD.

That said: It is yer site, so do what ya wish.

It would be a real shame if this poster went away, IMHO, (and maybe only MO).

I enjoy debate, don't you?


Stop yer complaining on the public side of the forums. If you have a problem with the way the board is ran, or decisions we make - contact any staff member.

I hope I've not overstepped here; if so: do what ya have to do.

Won't be the first time.

Respectfully, (and I do mean it), JR

[jimnyc]

Wow, is this called for?

I enjoy this man's posts, and I hope we could all try to be gracious to each other, I realise I call people Einstein et al from time to time, MY = BAD.

That said: It is yer site, so do what ya wish.

It would be a real shame if this poster went away, IMHO, (and maybe only MO).

I enjoy debate, don't you?



I hope I've not overstepped here; if so: do what ya have to do.

Won't be the first time.

Respectfully, (and I do mean it), JR

Was it called for? Probably not. But I have a fucked up sense of humor. If you don't like it don't read my posts, but I have little intent to change my style to make others happy.

[SassyLady]

[9.29] Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily.

the third verse you posted is about the non muslims who lived in the islamic lands at that time, it just says that they have to pay taxes then they can live there peacefully, but if they refuse to pay taxes then to fight them until they pay it or leave the land if they refuse to pay the taxes.

I want to focus on this one verse. Are you saying that if someone lives on islamic land, and is a non muslim, they have to pay a tax? And, if they don't pay the tribute tax or convert, the Muslims have the right to attack them?

Doesn't seem very tolerant and peaceful to me....sounds more like they want to control a person's religion or kill them.

[SassyLady]

whats your problem with allowing 4 wifes, do you have a problem with that ???

its not obligatory to have 4 wifes, its just an option if you want to, if you think its wrong to have more than one wife then lets explore the problem.

you have more than 5 million women more than men in just USA, so even if every man marry a women, there will be still 5 million unmarried women, now you can also account for the number of gays and number of males serving long prison time.

in other countries millions of women will not be able to find any men by your logic.

so islam doesnt force anyone to marry more than one women, it just provide a solution to an existing problem, which is the unbalance in women and men numbers.

So, if there were more men than women in your country, would the law allow a woman to have more than one husband?

[abso]

I want to focus on this one verse. Are you saying that if someone lives on islamic land, and is a non muslim, they have to pay a tax? And, if they don't pay the tribute tax or convert, the Muslims have the right to attack them?

Doesn't seem very tolerant and peaceful to me....sounds more like they want to control a person's religion or kill them.

no, not control his religion, he just have to pay his taxes to live in the country, thats is what being applied now in every country in the world, if i dont pay my taxes in USA, i will go to jail, wont i ?

and the tax is not just for non muslims, because muslims had to pay the taxes too, every islamic city had to sent its share of the taxes to the Caliph, and its taxes comes from muslims and non muslims, not just from non muslims, and the word fight in the verse doesnt mean to kill them at all, i said that if they dont pay the taxes, they have to move out of the land, not to kill them, fight them is just to force them to pay the taxes or tell them to leave, and if they refuse to pay the taxes or leave, they will be forced too do so, and not by killing them at all, if anyone didnt pay his taxes, he went to jail, thats all, there is no killing involved in that at all.

Romans 13:7
Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

Mark 12:17
Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.

Matthew 17:25
"Yes, he does," he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes--from their own sons or from others?"

Matthew 17:26
When Peter said, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are exempt.


let me explain what is tribute in Islam:

its a simple amount of money paid ONLY by sane healthy men who are able to fight, men we are able to carry a weapon, and everyone else are exempt from it.

so all those non muslims are exempt from taxes:
- women
- kids
- insane men
- sick men
- men who have disabilities
- elders
- priests

so a tribute is only paid by men who can carry a weapon and able to fight, thats because non muslims at that time didnt join the army, so they paid the tribute as a contribution to the army that defends them, but since all the other who are exempt from taxes couldnt join the army anyway, so they didnt have to pay any tax at all.

the muslims had another type of taxes called Zakat, and it was alot higher than the tribute paid by non muslims.

Zakat is about 2.5% of all the money that a muslim posessed every year, while the tribute was only 1 dinars every year at our prophets time then it was gradually increased till it reached 4 dinars per year after about 50 years.

so muslims paid taxes which is alot higher than non muslims.

the tribute paid by non muslims is just a price for using the puplic services at that time, and contribution to the army which defends the cities that they live in.

A christian researcher and writer Dr. Nabil Luke says:
The tribute in the old islamic caliph was a small amounts of money, about 70% of non muslims were exempt from it, elders, women, kids and priests were exempt, and its not a punishment for not entering Islam, its a tax for using puplic services, and a contribution to the defence against any external aggression.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i hope my reply was good enough and covering the whole subject.

so, anymore questions about the tribute ? :salute:

[abso]

So, if there were more men than women in your country, would the law allow a woman to have more than one husband?

good question, and NO, a woman cant marry 2 men at the same time, i can talk hours and hours about the difference between men and woman, but lets just skip all that and ask one question, do you really think that women and men are equal in everything in their life, did GOD create them with equal abilites, equal duties ?

[SassyLady]

good question, and NO, a woman cant marry 2 men at the same time, i can talk hours and hours about the difference between men and woman, but lets just skip all that and ask one question, do you really think that women and men are equal in everything in their life, did GOD create them with equal abilites, equal duties ?

Yes, men and women are different .... but why would you think God would favor one over the other? Why would God give one more privileges than the other?

And, I was only using your logic as the basis for my question. You said that the reason a man should be able to have more than one wife was because there are more women than men. Now, are you saying that the rule only applies to men because they are somehow superior and that women are somehow less than, and not equal in the eyes of God?

[red states rule]

Yes, men and women are different .... but why would you think God would favor one over the other? Why would God give one more privileges than the other?

And, I was only using your logic as the basis for my question. You said that the reason a man should be able to have more than one wife was because there are more women than men. Now, are you saying that the rule only applies to men because they are somehow superior and that women are somehow less than, and not equal in the eyes of God?

We all know what the reaction would be from those that follow the Religion of Peace if NOW would open an office anywhere in the Middle East

[SassyLady]

no, not control his religion, he just have to pay his taxes to live in the country, thats is what being applied now in every country in the world, if i dont pay my taxes in USA, i will go to jail, wont i ?

and the tax is not just for non muslims, because muslims had to pay the taxes too, every islamic city had to sent its share of the taxes to the Caliph, and its taxes comes from muslims and non muslims, not just from non muslims, and the word fight in the verse doesnt mean to kill them at all, i said that if they dont pay the taxes, they have to move out of the land, not to kill them, fight them is just to force them to pay the taxes or tell them to leave, and if they refuse to pay the taxes or leave, they will be forced too do so, and not by killing them at all, if anyone didnt pay his taxes, he went to jail, thats all, there is no killing involved in that at all.



This is your original quote:


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by abso http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=451470#post451470)
[9.29] Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily.

the third verse you posted is about the non muslims who lived in the islamic lands at that time, it just says that they have to pay taxes then they can live there peacefully, but if they refuse to pay taxes then to fight them until they pay it or leave the land if they refuse to pay the taxes.


Seems to me that this verse is directed against the non-Muslims. That one has to pay a special tribute if they are non-believers.....and it's OK to not believe, as long as they pay the tribute. It leads one to believe that they are paying a tax because they don't believe, not because they are paying a property or income tax. It's a tax/tribute assessed against non-believers.

This would be like America saying ... hey, anyone who doesn't believe in God has to pay an extra tribute ... or we will fight them until they leave. Sounds like religious persecution to me.

[abso]

Yes, men and women are different .... but why would you think God would favor one over the other? Why would God give one more privileges than the other?

And, I was only using your logic as the basis for my question. You said that the reason a man should be able to have more than one wife was because there are more women than men. Now, are you saying that the rule only applies to men because they are somehow superior and that women are somehow less than, and not equal in the eyes of God?

no, i am not saying they are superior at all, i am just saying they are different, but i never said that men are better than women in any way, and i never said that men have more abilities than women, or more duties or more rights, legally they both have equal rights, but about abilities or duties, there is no kind more than the other, its just different abilities and different duties, but as humans they are equal to GOD, and they have to abide by the same moral rules, and i can post some verses to you from the quran which show that men and women are both treated equally in the eyes of God.

[abso]

We all know what the reaction would be from those that follow the Religion of Peace if NOW would open an office anywhere in the Middle East

there are many organization for women in the middle east, they dont just exist in USA, and if NOW wants to open an office here, then its welcome.

and saying "those that follow the Religion of Peace" doesnt sound respectful, so please be respectful a little if you may.

[jimnyc]

nand i can post some verses to you from the quran which show that men and women are both treated equally in the eyes of God.

The same standards I hold other religions to is the same I hold Islam to.... I really don't care about the verses but much more about how those in the religion actually act. And while you don't seem like the type of person, nor do the muslims friends I have - there are TONS AND TONS AND TONS of muslim women throughout the world that get mistreated, MUCH MORE so than from any other religion.

[jimnyc]

there are many organization for women in the middle east, they dont just exist in USA, and if NOW wants to open an office here, then its welcome.

WHat if they wanted to open shop in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria and a bunch of other countries I am too lazy to look up at the moment? It just won't happen and you know it.

And why don't other leading muslim countries speak out against the countries that still treat women like 4th class citizens?

[abso]

This is your original quote:



Seems to me that this verse is directed against the non-Muslims. That one has to pay a special tribute if they are non-believers.....and it's OK to not believe, as long as they pay the tribute. It leads one to believe that they are paying a tax because they don't believe, not because they are paying a property or income tax. It's a tax/tribute assessed against non-believers.

This would be like America saying ... hey, anyone who doesn't believe in God has to pay an extra tribute ... or we will fight them until they leave. Sounds like religious persecution to me.

yes they have to pay tribute, because they dont pay ZAKAT which is the islamic taxes for muslims, so they have different kind of taxes called tribute for non muslims, and its alot lower than what muslims pays for ZAKAT, so its actually better if they are non believers, because they will pay lower taxes this way

so non muslims didnt pay extra tribute, they paid LESS taxes, does that sound like religious persecution to you ?

i already said that non muslims pay alot lesser taxes than muslims, so with all due respect to you, i find it silly when you say "anyone who doesn't believe in God has to pay an extra tribute".

its simple,

muslims pay ZAKAT = high taxes
non muslims pay tribute = very low taxes

all muslims pay ZAKAT.
only non muslim men who are able to figh pay tribute.

so which one do you think should feel religious persecution ?

[BoogyMan]

abso, simple question. Should this woman be put to death for claiming Christianity instead of Islam? It requires a quite simple answer. Yes or no. What say you?

[abso]

abso, simple question. Should this woman be put to death for claiming Christianity instead of Islam? It requires a quite simple answer. Yes or no. What say you?

actually, the thread is not about claiming christianity instead of Islam, its about insulting Muhammed.

anyway, in both cases, if she is claiming christianity instead of Islam or insulting Muhammed, my answer is still NO.

this is a stupid action from the pakistanian government, and i denounce it and i dont accept it at all.

[red states rule]

there are many organization for women in the middle east, they dont just exist in USA, and if NOW wants to open an office here, then its welcome.

and saying "those that follow the Religion of Peace" doesnt sound respectful, so please be respectful a little if you may.

No problem. I have always had little respect for the "Religion of Peace" that kills women in public, beheads others, and murders in the name of Allah

[SassyLady]

no, i am not saying they are superior at all, i am just saying they are different, but i never said that men are better than women in any way, and i never said that men have more abilities than women, or more duties or more rights, legally they both have equal rights, but about abilities or duties, there is no kind more than the other, its just different abilities and different duties, but as humans they are equal to GOD, and they have to abide by the same moral rules, and i can post some verses to you from the quran which show that men and women are both treated equally in the eyes of God.

No thank you .... just wanted to know why it's OK for men to have multiple wives, and yet women cannot have multiple husbands?

[red states rule]

WHat if they wanted to open shop in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria and a bunch of other countries I am too lazy to look up at the moment? It just won't happen and you know it.

And why don't other leading muslim countries speak out against the countries that still treat women like 4th class citizens?

Jim it could happen. The offices would be burned to the ground and the employees would be beheaded all the name of the Religion of Peace

[SassyLady]

yes they have to pay tribute, because they dont pay ZAKAT which is the islamic taxes for muslims, so they have different kind of taxes called tribute for non muslims, and its alot lower than what muslims pays for ZAKAT, so its actually better if they are non believers, because they will pay lower taxes this way

so non muslims didnt pay extra tribute, they paid LESS taxes, does that sound like religious persecution to you ?

i already said that non muslims pay alot lesser taxes than muslims, so with all due respect to you, i find it silly when you say "anyone who doesn't believe in God has to pay an extra tribute".

its simple,

muslims pay ZAKAT = high taxes
non muslims pay tribute = very low taxes

all muslims pay ZAKAT.
only non muslim men who are able to figh pay tribute.

so which one do you think should feel religious persecution ?

OK...I guess my question is....why is religion a basis for taxation...seems to create a caste type of society. Why are people, no matter what religion or no religion, treated differently. Why does your God want to make such a divide between people?

[red states rule]

OK...I guess my question is....why is religion a basis for taxation...seems to create a caste type of society. Why aren't all people, no matter what religion or no religion, treated differently. Why does your God want to make such a divide between people?

Do you have any idea how much those bomb vests cost MKP? Islam is a religion that will blow you away!

[abso]

Do you have any idea how much those bomb vests cost MKP? Islam is a religion that will blow you away!

i dont know if one of your relatives died in 9/11, maybe someone dear to you, or maybe you dont know anyone that died at all, maybe you just hate the fact that some muslims attacked your country, but that doesnt give you any excuse to hate all muslims, its childish to do that, so grow up and stop acting like a kid who cant get over something bad happened to him.

you are like the stupid Imams whom i personally hate because they spread the hatred of the west in the hearts of all the muslims, you are also spreading the hate of Islam among americans.

instead of hating the religion itself, hate the ones that use it for their own purposes, help good moderate muslims in fighting the radical islam instead of hating them all.

the religion is not the one who beheads women in puplic or bomb itself or kill others, people do that, not religion.

if the religion is whats responsible, then how am i here ?, why am i moderate muslim who like peace, if you think that Islam makes all muslims terrorists, then where does the moderate ones come from !!!

i guess that i have to accept the fact that some men will always be babies who will cry over something happened 9 years ago instead of thinking about the future.

[abso]

OK...I guess my question is....why is religion a basis for taxation...seems to create a caste type of society. Why are people, no matter what religion or no religion, treated differently. Why does your God want to make such a divide between people?

i will take some time to think about the answer to your question, but just a small comment in the mean time:

if Islam makes its followers pay more, and every one else pay much less, do you think that its a bad system that hurt others that way ?

you thought it forced people to enter Islam by making them pay more, while its the opposite, by your logic, then its forcing muslims out of Islam because it makes them pay more.

i dont know the exact answer right know, i will have to search for to be accurate while i am answering, but my thoughts right now is that maybe Islam didnt want people who doesnt have a strong believe in it to enter it just for the benifits, so it made it harder to be a muslim than to be non muslim, it made the life for non muslims easier, they didnt have to join military like muslims, or pay high taxes like muslims, so that when someone chooses Islam, they choose it because they want it, not to be exempt from paying some money.

[abso]

No thank you .... just wanted to know why it's OK for men to have multiple wives, and yet women cannot have multiple husbands?

i will be back soon with an answer for your question. :salute:

[jimnyc]

i guess that i have to accept the fact that some men will always be babies who will cry over something happened 9 years ago instead of thinking about the future.

You may have had some valid points until you got to this point. Why should people stop "crying"? Should people just forget?

As for the future, what are YOU and YOUR fellow muslims doing to stop the fact that the majority of women in Islam are mistreated and abused? What are YOU and YOUR countries doing to stop the shitholes that still live in the stone ages?

I know you don't like me and therefore won't answer, but we all know what it is anyway - not a damn thing.

[abso]

You may have had some valid points until you got to this point. Why should people stop "crying"? Should people just forget?


No, they shouldnt stop crying and they shouldnt forget, they should always remember the past to fix the future, we all cant do anything about the past, but we can work together to make a better future, and people like him, spreading hate among us, on both sides, this kind of people whom i despise, they dont help us in creating better future.



As for the future, what are YOU and YOUR fellow muslims doing to stop the fact that the majority of women in Islam are mistreated and abused? What are YOU and YOUR countries doing to stop the shitholes that still live in the stone ages?

i share your feelings about mistreating women, i hate it too, and i promise you that whenever i see a women in the course of my life, being mistreated, i will intervene to stop the mistreating.

but please understand that i am not responsible for the mistreatings that happen in pakistan or afghanistan or iran or any other place, i am just an ordinary muslim living in egypt, not in any of those places that you read about.



I know you don't like me and therefore won't answer, but we all know what it is anyway - not a damn thing.

About the fact that i dont like you, i guess you got that right, its not because you are american or because you are not muslim, i have many christian friends in egypt whom i like very much, and many people in this forum who have been respectful to me in all their posts, i liked them all, its just because you have been disrespectful to me and you have insulted me in various occasions since i joined that forum for no justified reason, so its only natural that i dont like you.

but i also dont hate you, and i always respond to any reply that have a question or any logical reason, i only ignore useless posts which only insults Islam with no actual debate, or posts that insults me personally for no justified reason at all.

[red states rule]

i dont know if one of your relatives died in 9/11, maybe someone dear to you, or maybe you dont know anyone that died at all, maybe you just hate the fact that some muslims attacked your country, but that doesnt give you any excuse to hate all muslims, its childish to do that, so grow up and stop acting like a kid who cant get over something bad happened to him.

you are like the stupid Imams whom i personally hate because they spread the hatred of the west in the hearts of all the muslims, you are also spreading the hate of Islam among americans.

instead of hating the religion itself, hate the ones that use it for their own purposes, help good moderate muslims in fighting the radical islam instead of hating them all.

the religion is not the one who beheads women in puplic or bomb itself or kill others, people do that, not religion.

if the religion is whats responsible, then how am i here ?, why am i moderate muslim who like peace, if you think that Islam makes all muslims terrorists, then where does the moderate ones come from !!!

i guess that i have to accept the fact that some men will always be babies who will cry over something happened 9 years ago instead of thinking about the future.

I have read parts of the Koran and your "bible" calls to kill the infidals. We had a murdering Mulsim slaughterr people on a military base and he did it for his religion

Not a Nuksims are terrorists but all terrorists have been Muslim

I do not forgive and I will not forget about 9/11. No matter how many people like you demand we do. I do think about the future. The future Mulsims want where EVERYONE LIVES THE WAY THEY DEMAND WE LIVE

Convert or die seems to be their message

[SassyLady]

i will take some time to think about the answer to your question, but just a small comment in the mean time:

if Islam makes its followers pay more, and every one else pay much less, do you think that its a bad system that hurt others that way ?

you thought it forced people to enter Islam by making them pay more, while its the opposite, by your logic, then its forcing muslims out of Islam because it makes them pay more.

i dont know the exact answer right know, i will have to search for to be accurate while i am answering, but my thoughts right now is that maybe Islam didnt want people who doesnt have a strong believe in it to enter it just for the benifits, so it made it harder to be a muslim than to be non muslim, it made the life for non muslims easier, they didnt have to join military like muslims, or pay high taxes like muslims, so that when someone chooses Islam, they choose it because they want it, not to be exempt from paying some money.

Well, regardless of the reasons, it seems the ruling party/government is right off the bat separating people through religion which does not see to be a good step toward tolerance and inclusion. Maybe this would be a GOOD place to start with the separation.....make everyone pay the same tax and no religious taxes at all.

[abso]

Well, regardless of the reasons, it seems the ruling party/government is right off the bat separating people through religion which does not see to be a good step toward tolerance and inclusion. Maybe this would be a GOOD place to start with the separation.....make everyone pay the same tax and no religious taxes at all.

actually muslims are the ones who should object to those taxes not non muslims, you have the advantage in paying less taxes so why you care ??? :laugh:


anyway, this system of taxes is not applied anymore, and there is no tribute to be paid by non muslims anymore, that was along time ago, at the begginings of Islam, but now in all islamic countries in the world, its just same taxes for everyone, nothing more and nothing less for any religion, and ZAKAT is not obligatory for muslims anymore, just the legal taxes for everyone, and about ZAKAT they kept it as a religious duty, any muslim can do it if he likes or can ignore it if he want to, he is free to pay it or not and no punishment for not paying it will be applied.

[red states rule]

No, they shouldnt stop crying and they shouldnt forget, they should always remember the past to fix the future, we all cant do anything about the past, but we can work together to make a better future, and people like him, spreading hate among us, on both sides, this kind of people whom i despise, they dont help us in creating better future.



i share your feelings about mistreating women, i hate it too, and i promise you that whenever i see a women in the course of my life, being mistreated, i will intervene to stop the mistreating.

but please understand that i am not responsible for the mistreatings that happen in pakistan or afghanistan or iran or any other place, i am just an ordinary muslim living in egypt, not in any of those places that you read about.



About the fact that i dont like you, i guess you got that right, its not because you are american or because you are not muslim, i have many christian friends in egypt whom i like very much, and many people in this forum who have been respectful to me in all their posts, i liked them all, its just because you have been disrespectful to me and you have insulted me in various occasions since i joined that forum for no justified reason, so its only natural that i dont like you.

but i also dont hate you, and i always respond to any reply that have a question or any logical reason, i only ignore useless posts which only insults Islam with no actual debate, or posts that insults me personally for no justified reason at all.

Q. How did the Muslim mother teach her son which way to put his underwear on?

A. Fuse in the front!

[abso]

Q. How did the Muslim mother teach her son which way to put his underwear on?

A. Fuse in the front!

its really funny that you think stupid posts like this will make me annoyed or angry :laugh2:, keep up the good work, and stay a kid as long as you life, maybe oneday you will stop using Diapers and grow up for a change.

[jimnyc]

Speaking of growing up, and needing diapers - who was Aisha?

[abso]

Speaking of growing up, and needing diapers - who was Aisha?

you really have the tendency of repeating yourself, dont you ?

as i said many times, some text say 9 some say 12 some say 15, and we will never be sure of the true age, stories that old can be distorted to an extent that it has nothing to do with reality anymore, unless you think that everything that we read about history is always accurate and true, if you choose to believe everything you read, then good luck in reading history.

anyway, the subject we are discussing now have nothing to do with what you are refering to, if you want to talk about something else, open new thread and say wutever you want in it, but stop diverting every subject to other subjects, learn to concentrate while debating.

[jimnyc]

you really have the tendency of repeating yourself, dont you ?

as i said many times, some text say 9 some say 12 some say 15, and we will never be sure of the true age, stories that old can be distorted to an extent that it has nothing to do with reality anymore, unless you think that everything that we read about history is always accurate and true, if you choose to believe everything you read, then good luck in reading history.

anyway, the subject we are discussing now have nothing to do with what you are refering to, if you want to talk about something else, open new thread and say wutever you want in it, but stop diverting every subject to other subjects, learn to concentrate while debating.

Tell ya what,when you start paying the bills around here then you can tell me where and when I can post.

As far as Aisha, and not believing everything I read - then I guess everything we learn about muhammed is open for interpretation. You can't claim some things as factual throughout history and claim the others might be wrong just because you don't like them.

[abso]

Tell ya what,when you start paying the bills around here then you can tell me where and when I can post.

As far as Aisha, and not believing everything I read - then I guess everything we learn about muhammed is open for interpretation. You can't claim some things as factual throughout history and claim the others might be wrong just because you don't like them.

i never claimed that anything is factual more than the other, but at least, when you hear something good, you should have the tendency to prefer it to something thats bad, thats all.

but since many things will probably be false, then i would say that sex with 9 years old would surely qualify to be a false story, just think a little, how can he be a moral leader to his people at that time if he did that ?, even if he wanted to do so, he couldnt have done it, because it would have made him look bad in the eyes of his people.

just try to think when you hear a story, dont just believe it because you have the tendency to hate Muhammed or Muslims

anyway, it actually doesnt matter what really happened, he died 1400 years ago, but since Muhammed now is a role model for more than 1.5 billions, then we should try to spread every good tale about him so that people do the same, not to spread bad tales about him, which may make some people do that same even if they are unture.

and we dont need to waste our time on the past, we should spend it discussing the issues of our time, not the events or the culture that was around 14 centuries ago.