Free will and gods

[Noir]

Its a remarkably old debate but I think a remarkably simple one, the simplicity of which has been made all the more obvious due to two Greek philosophers, Parmenides and Heraclitus.

So here's the bap, if you believe in a god who is all knowing, then you believe the future is as unalterable as the past, and thus free will is merely an illusion because you have to follow the events in your future and can never alter from that set path, no matter what you do.

And if, say, you believe in the god as detailed by the Roman Catholics, then that path may well have you on a one way ticket to hell, and there's nothing you can do about it. Nice.

[PostmodernProphet]

Its a remarkably old debate but I think a remarkably simple one, the simplicity of which has been made all the more obvious due to two Greek philosophers, Parmenides and Heraclitus.

So here's the bap, if you believe in a god who is all knowing, then you believe the future is as unalterable as the past, and thus free will is merely an illusion because you have to follow the events in your future and can never alter from that set path, no matter what you do.

And if, say, you believe in the god as detailed by the Roman Catholics, then that path may well have you on a one way ticket to hell, and there's nothing you can do about it. Nice.

your error is quite a simple one actually.....you say that I have to follow the events in my future and cannot alter them......however, I have no knowledge of my future and therefore have nothing to follow....I simply live my life making my choices......

[darin]

Its a remarkably old debate but I think a remarkably simple one, the simplicity of which has been made all the more obvious due to two Greek philosophers, Parmenides and Heraclitus.

So here's the bap, if you believe in a god who is all knowing, then you believe the future is as unalterable as the past, and thus free will is merely an illusion because you have to follow the events in your future and can never alter from that set path, no matter what you do.

And if, say, you believe in the god as detailed by the Roman Catholics, then that path may well have you on a one way ticket to hell, and there's nothing you can do about it. Nice.

You are using the fallacy of false dilemma.

[revelarts]

No mater what perspective one comes from religious or secular when you start asking certain questions you end up with a paradox.

Noir, What about yourself. Do you have "free will" or are you biologically, molecularity determined? are we all? Our our thoughts even set up for rational thought or for survival? Do we have Biological or psychological free will or are we genetically determined are we even capable of honestly knowing?

With God there's, at least, someone outside of Biology making the choices. Gives us more of a chance to overcome our darker natural tendencies to say the least.

[Noir]

your error is quite a simple one actually.....you say that I have to follow the events in my future and cannot alter them......however, I have no knowledge of my future and therefore have nothing to follow....I simply live my life making my choices......

You do not have to know your choices to follow a set path. That is how the illusion of free will is created. For example, when I walk into a shop idk if I'll by a Coke or a Sprite, so I 'chose' but an all knowing god already knows which I will chose, and has done for countless billions o years, all I am doing is continuing to walk along the path that she knows I'm going to walk down.


You are using the fallacy of false dilemma.

Please explain.


No mater what perspective one comes from religious or secular when you start asking certain questions you end up with a paradox.

Noir, What about yourself. Do you have "free will" or are you biologically, molecularity determined? are we all? Our our thoughts even set up for rational thought or for survival? Do we have Biological or psychological free will or are we genetically determined are we even capable of honestly knowing?

With God there's, at least, someone outside of Biology making the choices. Gives us more of a chance to overcome our darker natural tendencies to say the least.

I'm coming more and more to the thought that free will is not independent as such, (making me q determinist I guess) but that is still a long shot from our path being known and overlooked by a god. Ie I may not think I have free will, but I also think that there is no way to know for certain a choice before it is made

[darin]

So here's the bap, if you believe in a god who is all knowing, then you believe the future is as unalterable as the past, and thus free will is merely an illusion because you have to follow the events in your future and can never alter from that set path, no matter what you do.



Please explain.


It's simple. You created a false dilemma for somebody to argue against.
You created parameters where the person MUST choose one or the other.

Further, you are confusing 'knowing what will happen' with 'causing it to happen'.

It's true God knows the future. It's NOT true that he 'causes' the future.

The reason is simple - God knows the future because God is already there. He's outside of our time. He's not bound by constricts of time cuz...well...he's God. :)

[PostmodernProphet]

You do not have to know your choices to follow a set path. That is how the illusion of free will is created. For example, when I walk into a shop idk if I'll by a Coke or a Sprite, so I 'chose' but an all knowing god already knows which I will chose, and has done for countless billions o years, all I am doing is continuing to walk along the path that she knows I'm going to walk down.

obviously one cannot follow a path that they cannot see......does your choice of Coke "cause" God's knowledge of what you choose or does God's knowledge of what you choose "cause" you to choose.....obviously it's the former, since you have no idea what God's knowledge contains......

[NightTrain]

I don't usually engage in these sorts of discussions, because they almost always go nowhere in particular. But my own views on this are self-evident if you have read the bible.

God is All-Knowing, and yet the future is not a set course due to free will and our abilities to make choices, be them good or bad.

This is demonstrated countless times with stories of messengers or dreams or even meetings with God Himself, giving guidance to key persons to steer them to events that are needed to have the outcome God has decided He desires.

People haven't always gone along with what they were supposed to do, and there usually were severe repercussions for doing so.

Free will is the wild card; the future is not set in stone - IMHO.

[Noir]

It's simple. You created a false dilemma for somebody to argue against.
You created parameters where the person MUST choose one or the other.

Further, you are confusing 'knowing what will happen' with 'causing it to happen'.

It's true God knows the future. It's NOT true that he 'causes' the future.

The reason is simple - God knows the future because God is already there. He's outside of our time. He's not bound by constricts of time cuz...well...he's God. :)

Where did I mention anything being caused by a god?
She does not have to cause me to chose Coke or Sprite, but by alreadying knowing which I will chose, my future is already written for me, and I have no choice about that.


obviously one cannot follow a path that they cannot see......does your choice of Coke "cause" God's knowledge of what you choose or does God's knowledge of what you choose "cause" you to choose.....obviously it's the former, since you have no idea what God's knowledge contains......

You can follow a path blind, you just don't know your following it. My life is already set, I just have to live it out, that's what belief in an all knowing god would entail.


I don't usually engage in these sorts of discussions, because they almost always go nowhere in particular. But my own views on this are self-evident if you have read the bible.

God is All-Knowing, and yet the future is not a set course due to free will and our abilities to make choices, be them good or bad.

This is demonstrated countless times with stories of messengers or dreams or even meetings with God Himself, giving guidance to key persons to steer them to events that are needed to have the outcome God has decided He desires.

People haven't always gone along with what they were supposed to do, and there usually were severe repercussions for doing so.

Free will is the wild card; the future is not set in stone - IMHO.

Idc which god we're talking about, Christian/Muslim/Hindu etc, all that matters is the god is all knowing.

If I may focus on your last sentence, the future is not set in stone, is that to say that your god does not know what the future will be?

[DragonStryk72]

Its a remarkably old debate but I think a remarkably simple one, the simplicity of which has been made all the more obvious due to two Greek philosophers, Parmenides and Heraclitus.

So here's the bap, if you believe in a god who is all knowing, then you believe the future is as unalterable as the past, and thus free will is merely an illusion because you have to follow the events in your future and can never alter from that set path, no matter what you do.

And if, say, you believe in the god as detailed by the Roman Catholics, then that path may well have you on a one way ticket to hell, and there's nothing you can do about it. Nice.

You are proof the argument is false. Move on, dude. Simply because God is all knowing doesn't mean he's laying anything out to us. Have you gotten a script yet for how your life's gonna turn out? Didn't think so. We're all making our own choices, even if He knows what those choices will be. It's really not that difficult.

[Noir]

You are proof the argument is false. Move on, dude. Simply because God is all knowing doesn't mean he's laying anything out to us. Have you gotten a script yet for how your life's gonna turn out? Didn't think so. We're all making our own choices, even if He knows what those choices will be. It's really not that difficult.

I am certainly not proof it's false. I don't know how my life is going to turn out, but if a god does then thats massive, really truly massive
to the notion of self determinism.

[SassyLady]

Idc which god we're talking about, Christian/Muslim/Hindu etc, all that matters is the god is all knowing.

If I may focus on your last sentence, the future is not set in stone, is that to say that your god does not know what the future will be?

I believe God knows what the future will be from the moment you make a choice ... even if that future changes every millisecond.

If computers can generate millions of scenarios from changing just one small piece of code, and predict the outcome, I believe God has a capacity way beyond what our current computers can do, therefore, able to see what the future is, even though it's not set in stone.

[Noir]

I believe God knows what the future will be from the moment you make a choice ... even if that future changes every millisecond.

If computers can generate millions of scenarios from changing just one small piece of code, and predict the outcome, I believe God has a capacity way beyond what our current computers can do, therefore, able to see what the future is, even though it's not set in stone.

So, for example, he would not know if I'd pick the coke or sprite, but merely have a list of probabilities and possibilities of which I would chose? (and presumably this would also require her to live within our time)

[SassyLady]

So, for example, he would not know if I'd pick the coke or sprite, but merely have a list of probabilities and possibilities of which I would chose? (and presumably this would also require her to live within our time)

I think you give too many human qualities to God ... such as having to live within our time frame. In God's realm, there are no human limitations....which I believe is the hardest thing for us humans to contemplate. The things God is capable of are beyond our current comprehension or ability to prove.

As for knowing what you will pick ... the minute you contemplate something God can see what the possibilities are of that decision...the "all knowing" thing.

[Noir]

I think you give too many human qualities to God ... such as having to live within our time frame. In God's realm, there are no human limitations....which I believe is the hardest thing for us humans to contemplate. The things God is capable of are beyond our current comprehension or ability to prove.

As for knowing what you will pick ... the minute you contemplate something God can see what the possibilities are of that decision...the "all knowing" thing.


I'm not the one that gave him that quality, you were. You do in that very quote by saying she can contemplate the possibilities *when* I think something.

Either he exists within our time frame (which is what you suggest with the 'knowing possibilities') or outside of our timeframe (inwhich case everything can appear to of happened in the past and thus all is set in stone) She could not be both outside of time and yet depentant on events in time to calculate.

[DragonStryk72]

So, for example, he would not know if I'd pick the coke or sprite, but merely have a list of probabilities and possibilities of which I would chose? (and presumably this would also require her to live within our time)

Why would it require God to exist within time, as opposed to without? As well, my old argument put a different way, how does God's knowledge of what will or will not occur give us any greater degree of that knowledge? Simply because God knows the answer, or what comes next, does not mean He every would share it with us. In fact, if you are at all interested in seeing growth in people, then that's the last thing you would ever want to do.

You ever meet someone who as an adult was nearly incapable of dealing with life because their parents made all their choices for them? Yeah, that's what that path leads to. Most of learning in humans is actually through failure. I like the line in the movie Rounders, "In "Confessions of a Winning Poker Player," Jack King said, "Few players recall big pots they have won, strange as it seems, but every player can remember with remarkable accuracy the outstanding tough beats of his career."

[SassyLady]

I'm not the one that gave him that quality, you were. You do in that very quote by saying she can contemplate the possibilities *when* I think something.

Either he exists within our time frame (which is what you suggest with the 'knowing possibilities') or outside of our timeframe (inwhich case everything can appear to of happened in the past and thus all is set in stone) She could not be both outside of time and yet depentant on events in time to calculate.

Why not?

[Noir]

Why would it require God to exist within time, as opposed to without? As well, my old argument put a different way, how does God's knowledge of what will or will not occur give us any greater degree of that knowledge? Simply because God knows the answer, or what comes next, does not mean He every would share it with us. In fact, if you are at all interested in seeing growth in people, then that's the last thing you would ever want to do.

You ever meet someone who as an adult was nearly incapable of dealing with life because their parents made all their choices for them? Yeah, that's what that path leads to. Most of learning in humans is actually through failure. I like the line in the movie Rounders, "In "Confessions of a Winning Poker Player," Jack King said, "Few players recall big pots they have won, strange as it seems, but every player can remember with remarkable accuracy the outstanding tough beats of his career."

I has never said anything about a god telling humans what they are going to do in the future.
However, if a god knows what I am going to do, then as much as I may think I I making choices, I'm really just following a path that she knows I will take.

[Noir]

Why not?

Because they both provide completely different answers to the same question. If he is within our time then she will not be certain abort what I am going to do until I do it, however (as you suggested earlier) he may be able to calculate every possible choice and its consequences. If she exists outside of time then everything can appear to of happened in the past, inwhich case the god will be certain about what's going to happen. And surly your not going to try and suggest that the god both knows and does not know what's going to happen at the same time.

[PostmodernProphet]

Where did I mention anything being caused by a god?
She does not have to cause me to chose Coke or Sprite, but by alreadying knowing which I will chose, my future is already written for me, and I have no choice about that.

simply wrong.....you acknowledge in your statement that she "knows which I will chose"......thus, it is your choice which caused the knowledge...



You can follow a path blind, you just don't know your following it. My life is already set, I just have to live it out, that's what belief in an all knowing god would entail.

and your living is done without compulsion, simply because you are in fact blind to the path.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Either he exists within our time frame (which is what you suggest with the 'knowing possibilities') or outside of our timeframe (inwhich case everything can appear to of happened in the past and thus all is set in stone) She could not be both outside of time and yet depentant on events in time to calculate.

why not...she could be in side our time frame and outside our time frame either simultaneously or alternatively, leaving herself a seventh day of rest whenever she wanted some R&R......

[PostmodernProphet]

Because they both provide completely different answers to the same question. If he is within our time then she will not be certain abort what I am going to do until I do it, however (as you suggested earlier) he may be able to calculate every possible choice and its consequences. If she exists outside of time then everything can appear to of happened in the past, inwhich case the god will be certain about what's going to happen. And surly your not going to try and suggest that the god both knows and does not know what's going to happen at the same time.

whether God is inside or outside of our temporal existence, he is aware of what you choose......that awareness comes about because you made a choice, does it not?......your choice was not dictated by the awareness, the awareness was dictated by the choice......

[DragonStryk72]

I has never said anything about a god telling humans what they are going to do in the future.
However, if a god knows what I am going to do, then as much as I may think I I making choices, I'm really just following a path that she knows I will take.

Well, yeah you have, actually, just not directly. You entire supposition is that since God knows what we're going to do, obviously that removes choices, but it doesn't. If you know a building is about to catch fire, there are a dozen choices before you of what to do or more. God, having created us, and watched us all our lives, simply knows what choice we will make in a given situation.

It's like when you go over things you don't want to tell your parents, because you know how they would react to it. It isn't that you have control of their actions or mindsets, it's that you've known them for so long that you generally know how they think. That, times infinity.

What I'd like to ask is this, though, "What makes you the expert?" You have no knowledge of the divine, and frankly, you are already biased against anything we might pose to you. You seem to assume we all know how God works, like we hit the pub with him every day after work, and talk about the big things with him. It doesn't work like that, so there's no way to continue really having a debate about it with you. Even if we did, what, in truth, would be the point, as you will not relinquish your stance?

[SassyLady]

Well, yeah you have, actually, just not directly. You entire supposition is that since God knows what we're going to do, obviously that removes choices, but it doesn't. If you know a building is about to catch fire, there are a dozen choices before you of what to do or more. God, having created us, and watched us all our lives, simply knows what choice we will make in a given situation.

It's like when you go over things you don't want to tell your parents, because you know how they would react to it. It isn't that you have control of their actions or mindsets, it's that you've known them for so long that you generally know how they think. That, times infinity.

What I'd like to ask is this, though, "What makes you the expert?" You have no knowledge of the divine, and frankly, you are already biased against anything we might pose to you. You seem to assume we all know how God works, like we hit the pub with him every day after work, and talk about the big things with him. It doesn't work like that, so there's no way to continue really having a debate about it with you. Even if we did, what, in truth, would be the point, as you will not relinquish your stance?

Must spread rep....:clap::clap:

[NightTrain]

Well, yeah you have, actually, just not directly. You entire supposition is that since God knows what we're going to do, obviously that removes choices, but it doesn't. If you know a building is about to catch fire, there are a dozen choices before you of what to do or more. God, having created us, and watched us all our lives, simply knows what choice we will make in a given situation.

It's like when you go over things you don't want to tell your parents, because you know how they would react to it. It isn't that you have control of their actions or mindsets, it's that you've known them for so long that you generally know how they think. That, times infinity.

What I'd like to ask is this, though, "What makes you the expert?" You have no knowledge of the divine, and frankly, you are already biased against anything we might pose to you. You seem to assume we all know how God works, like we hit the pub with him every day after work, and talk about the big things with him. It doesn't work like that, so there's no way to continue really having a debate about it with you. Even if we did, what, in truth, would be the point, as you will not relinquish your stance?

Very well said.