What's the difference between Zionism and Racism?

[Noir]

Came across this short but interesting interview from the British News program 'Newsnight'

The mans answer is is really a non-answer of the most obvious kind, I wish Jeremy had pressed him again on it.

The video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvVNX0x69uo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

The question - So what is the difference, of any?

[fj1200]

Jeremy Paxman: What is the difference between Zionism and racism?

Peter Gooderham: Well we see the two as being quite distinct

Jeremy Paxman: Yeah whats the difference?

Peter Gooderham: Well Zionism is a political movement related to the establishment of a homeland

Jeremy Paxman [quietly]: So are some forms of racism.

Peter Gooderham:a Jewish homeland, in the erin what is now Israel and racism is something else. I mean racism is, I think we all know it when we see it and its not, its not that, and we have fought long and hard at the United Nations to keep that, to maintain that distinction.

Racism: Racism is the belief that the genetic factors which constitute race are a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority.

What was wrong with his definition and how do you consider Zionism racist?

[Noir]

I'm not sure if I find it racist, however, his answer was so obviously evasive it arose my curiosity.

As for the establishment of a homeland, Nazism was a politicial movement with a racist ideology that also had plans for a Nazi homeland. Zionism has the same for Jews, no?

[fj1200]

I'm not sure if I find it racist, however, his answer was so obviously evasive it arose my curiosity.

As for the establishment of a homeland, Nazism was a politicial movement with a racist ideology that also had plans for a Nazi homeland. Zionism has the same for Jews, no?

The Nazis already had a homeland and were striving for racial purity which was not common to all fascist movements. I don't see Israel striving for racial purity as only 75% of Israelis are Jewish.

I don't see how his definition was evasive, the wikipedia definition isn't much longer.

Zionism is primarily a nationalist Jewish political movement that, in its broadest sense, has supported the self-determination of the Jewish people in a sovereign Jewish national homeland.
It continues...

Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to advocate on behalf of the Jewish state and address threats to its continued existence and security.

I don't get what you're seeing and BTW I think Paxman's quiet comment was a cheap shot.

[Noir]

The Nazis already had a homeland and were striving for racial purity which was not common to all fascist movements. I don't see Israel striving for racial purity as only 75% of Israelis are Jewish.

But do Zionists believe that Jews are better than non-Jews? And if not, why must there be a Jewish state as apose to a secular state with Jews in it?


I don't see how his definition was evasive, the wikipedia definition isn't much longer.

It continues...

Because his response is basically 'why isn't it racism?' 'because it's not' Not exactly convincing, is it?


I don't get what you're seeing and BTW I think Paxman's quiet comment was a cheap shot.

Cheap shot? Hardly, he starts by saying its a political movement, which racism also is, hardly a difference.

[fj1200]

But do Zionists believe that Jews are better than non-Jews? And if not, why must there be a Jewish state as apose to a secular state with Jews in it?

There is freedom of religion in Israel and a 20% Muslim population, does that scream racism to you? I'm sure you can find racist Zionists but that doesn't make all Zionists racist. I don't think Israel is basing laws on the book of Deuteronomy.


Because his response is basically 'why isn't it racism?' 'because it's not' Not exactly convincing, is it?

He defined Zionism and rejects, correctly I add, Paxman's view. It would be like asking, "Why isn't Conservatism racist?" Because it's not, stupid question, move on.


Cheap shot? Hardly, he starts by saying its a political movement, which racism also is, hardly a difference.

Yes, cheap shot, he doesn't say it loudly enough to get a response and it's stupid in the first place. Racism is not a political movement, it's a belief.

[Noir]

There is freedom of religion in Israel and a 20% Muslim population, does that scream racism to you? I'm sure you can find racist Zionists but that doesn't make all Zionists racist. I don't think Israel is basing laws on the book of Deuteronomy.

You didnt even attempt to answer the questions that you quoted for this bit, want to answer them?


He defined Zionism and rejects, correctly I add, Paxman's view. It would be like asking, "Why isn't Conservatism racist?" Because it's not, stupid question, move on.

So you find 'just because it's not' an acceptable answer? Different strokes for different folks I guess, I like to have a bit more detail, y'know.


Yes, cheap shot, he doesn't say it loudly enough to get a response and it's stupid in the first place. Racism is not a political movement, it's a belief.

so because he didn't shout over the guy it's cheap?
Also, I dint want to get into a discussion about what is political and what isnt as that could get very tedious, but let's just say racism is a belief that motivates racist political movements, and so is political.

[fj1200]

You didnt even attempt to answer the questions that you quoted for this bit, want to answer them?

I answered them as much as I wanted, I'm not going to spell it out any more than that. But why don't we try this, rather than you asking barely relevant questions why don't you try and back up your original posit, k?


So you find 'just because it's not' an acceptable answer? Different strokes for different folks I guess, I like to have a bit more detail, y'know.

When the premise of the question is faulty it's a stupid question. He might have well asked him when he stopped beating his wife.


so because he didn't shout over the guy it's cheap?
Also, I dint want to get into a discussion about what is political and what isnt as that could get very tedious, but let's just say racism is a belief that motivates racist political movements, and so is political.

He said it quietly while his original question was being answered, he was getting in a cheap shot and at the same time exposing his own biases which weren't hidden all that well to begin with.

Racism a political movement? Is that what passes for logic over there at university?

[Noir]

I answered them as much as I wanted, I'm not going to spell it out any more than that. But why don't we try this, rather than you asking barely relevant questions why don't you try and back up your original posit, k?

In as much as you wanted to? And you didn't want to answer 'why do te Jews not want a secular state as apose to a Jewish one' at all?


When the premise of the question is faulty it's a stupid question. He might have well asked him when he stopped beating his wife.

Having looked around the webs it seems a very common and commented on question, maybe the rest if us just aren't as smart as you >,>


He said it quietly while his original question was being answered, he was getting in a cheap shot and at the same time exposing his own biases which weren't hidden all that well to begin with.

Paxmans style, as you may or may not know is 'Attack attack attack' I have no idea what his views on Zionism are, simply because that's his style of interview.


Racism a political movement? Is that what passes for logic over there at university?

I'm not in University.
But if this is how you want to go, please define a political movement and how Racism is not in an of itself political (you may also want to add feminism, Marxism and so on to this list of none-political beliefs :laugh:)

[revelarts]

Noir,
Zionism lifts concepts from it's base of Judaism. Judaism has a clear nationalist or land based component in it's set of beliefs. And Judaism is a religion with some strong familiarly or tribal aspects. Racial in a broader sense. However people can become Jewish just as people can convert to most religions.

I don't know if there is a clear or direct comparison in what I'm about to suggest but wasn't/isn't the IRA a nationalist movement with racial and religious overtones as well?

[Noir]

Noir,
Zionism lifts concepts from it's base of Judaism. Judaism has a clear nationalist or land based component in it's set of beliefs. And Judaism is a religion with some strong familiarly or tribal aspects. Racial in a broader sense. However people can become Jewish just as people can convert to most religions.

I don't know if there is a clear or direct comparison in what I'm about to suggest but wasn't/isn't the IRA a nationalist movement with racial and religious overtones as well?

Indeed, ofcourse I understand there is a difference, i mean Jew isn't a race, rather an identity, but does Zionism relate to identity in the same way that racism relates to race?

And yeah, a fair summation of the IRA is a Republician terrorist movement with the Catholic churches quiet support.

[fj1200]

In as much as you wanted to? And you didn't want to answer 'why do te Jews not want a secular state as apose to a Jewish one' at all?

Yes. You find it odd that a historically persecuted people would like their own homeland based on a shared religion/culture? Also, why don't you think Israel is a secular state?


Having looked around the webs it seems a very common and commented on question, maybe the rest if us just aren't as smart as you >,>

Then it seems you should be able to back up your point a little better. But it would seem many on the interwebs buy into a faulty premise.


Paxmans style, as you may or may not know is 'Attack attack attack' I have no idea what his views on Zionism are, simply because that's his style of interview.

I don't know Paxman but I do know a cheap shot.


I'm not in University.
But if this is how you want to go, please define a political movement and how Racism is not in an of itself political (you may also want to add feminism, Marxism and so on to this list of none-political beliefs :laugh:)

Find me a definition of racism that doesn't start with "the belief..." Why would I add feminism and Marxism to the list of beliefs? :rolleyes: The definition of those don't start with "the belief..."

[kowalskil]

You asked: "What's the difference between Zionism and Racism?"

And what is the difference between Americans and criminals?

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)