why is any criticism of islam not allowed

[actsnoblemartin]

I notice that no one is really allowed to criticism islam without threats of violence and intimidation

why is that?

[Noir]

Ofcourse it's allowed, atleast in non-islamic states.
Threats of violence do not remove the right from you, they merely attempt to, don't let them take the right from you, and you're free to criticise.

[REDWHITEBLUE2]

I notice that no one is really allowed to criticism islam without threats of violence and intimidation

why is that?

Because Islam is a brain washing cult not a religion

[Abbey Marie]

Criticism is theoretically allowed, but as we have seen, Fatwahs and even beheadings usually follow. Yes, even in non-islamic countries.

[Pagan]

Criticism is theoretically allowed, but as we have seen, Fatwahs and even beheadings usually follow. Yes, even in non-islamic countries.

Islam does not hold the Monopoly on this, zealots infect all religious groups.

OH BTW the Patrick Henry quote you have in your sig ......

Those words appear nowhere in ANY of his writings, none, zilch, notta.

That quote first appeared in "The Virginian" in 1956 in which a snippets from Henry will was followed by comments penned by the articles author. The "author's" comments have been falsely spun as from Patrick Henry every now and again. You seriously need to practice a bit of scepticism when you get those chain emails ya know ;)

Oh and the Washington quote is false also ;)

[Abbey Marie]

Islam does not hold the Monopoly on this, zealots infect all religious groups.

OH BTW the Patrick Henry quote you have in your sig ......

Those words appear nowhere in ANY of his writings, none, zilch, notta.

That quote first appeared in "The Virginian" in 1956 in which a snippets from Henry will was followed by comments penned by the articles author. The "author's" comments have been falsely spun as from Patrick Henry every now and again. You seriously need to practice a bit of scepticism when you get those chain emails ya know ;)

Oh and the Washington quote is false also ;)

Prove it.

[Pagan]

Prove it.

You know there's a wonderful tool, it's called google. Try it some time

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

http://www.religioustolerance.org/badquotes.htm

[Noir]

You know there's a wonderful tool, it's called google. Try it some time

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

http://www.religioustolerance.org/badquotes.htm

Must spread the rep.

@Abbey It never occurred to me to ask for the original source of your quote when you presented it to counter my Adams 'Treaty of Tripolli' quote, will bare that in mind in future :3
Speaking of which, where did you get the quotes?

[Noir]

Prove it.

Well, he proved it, no reply and it's still your sig...

[Pagan]

Well, he proved it, no reply and it's still your sig...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tnpPU5qMUSM/SkzURSOIDYI/AAAAAAAABpw/YpJBpaZWK5A/s400/crickets+chirping,jpg.gif

[abso]

I notice that no one is really allowed to criticism islam without threats of violence and intimidation

why is that?

who said that it isnt allowed, you can criticise the laws or practices as you wish, but all we want, not to insult us or our prophet, and the cartoons of Muhammed was not a criticise, it was insult to him, and we dont allow that, we dont like it when people insult other dead people, if you want to insult someone, then insult someone who is alive and can defend himself.

for me, i can take any criticism, but all i as for is some respect while saying it, criticise as you want but dont insult, is it too much to ask for ?

[jimnyc]

who said that it isnt allowed, you can criticise the laws or practices as you wish, but all we want, not to insult us or our prophet, and the cartoons of Muhammed was not a criticise, it was insult to him, and we dont allow that, we dont like it when people insult other dead people, if you want to insult someone, then insult someone who is alive and can defend himself.

for me, i can take any criticism, but all i as for is some respect while saying it, criticise as you want but dont insult, is it too much to ask for ?

The muslim filth states it isn't allowed by attempting to kill those who speak out criticism against their pedoprophet. They will issue a fatwah? I believe it is called. If the filth get angry enough at more than one individual, then they start tossing terror attacks within countries they disagree with.

[Noir]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tnpPU5qMUSM/SkzURSOIDYI/AAAAAAAABpw/YpJBpaZWK5A/s400/crickets+chirping,jpg.gif

She'll have to comment on it eventually, I mean, really :laugh:

[Noir]

who said that it isnt allowed, you can criticise the laws or practices as you wish, but all we want, not to insult us or our prophet, and the cartoons of Muhammed was not a criticise, it was insult to him, and we dont allow that, we dont like it when people insult other dead people, if you want to insult someone, then insult someone who is alive and can defend himself.

for me, i can take any criticism, but all i as for is some respect while saying it, criticise as you want but dont insult, is it too much to ask for ?

What of Salman Rushdie, legitimate or not?

Also youre back to respect. Lawl. No one has the right not to be offended. End of.

[revelarts]

who said that it isnt allowed,

you can criticize the laws or practices as you wish,

but all we want,
not to insult us or our prophet,

and the cartoons of Muhammad was not a criticize,
it was insult to him,
and we dont allow that,
we dont like it when people insult other dead people,
if you want to insult someone,
then insult someone who is alive and can defend himself.

for me, i can take any criticism,
but all i as for is some respect while saying it,
criticise as you want but dont insult,
is it too much to ask for ?


Some times there's a fine line between Insult and criticism some can't see that line others have different view of where it is.

Can some one criticize the Koran?
the content as factually false,
or perhaps misleading,
or promoting specific bad practices?

Mohamed is a historical figure as well as your prophet.
Are you saying it's wrong to criticize all histoeical figures.
No one can say anything bad about Mao or George Washington, or Buddha, or a former Pope?

I can an do respect people but some of there actions and words I dont respect or agree with should I keep silent becuase you hold a historical figure in high regard? I have no intention of personally attacking you, but I if I see something wrong in the one you call a prophet. Why should keep silent. i I understand it to be true.

And you say to insult the prophet is not ALLOWED. what does that mean to you?
a verbal rebuke,
a public apology,
a fine,
jail time,
beating,
death?

A combination?

[jimnyc]

And you say to insult the prophet is not ALLOWED. what does that mean to you?
a verbal rebuke,
a public apology,
a fine,
jail time,
beating,
death?

A combination?

EXACTLY. He won't admit it, but anyone who purposely defames their beloved prophet is expected to be killed, and without a doubt if a "fatwa" is issued against the offender. They wanted Salman Rushdie, the danish guy who wrote the cartoon, the british woman who had the kids in her class choose a name for a teddy bear, and they chose muhammed. Hell, even South Park received death threats.

IMO, anything more than a verbal rebuke is too much. But then again, we believe in rights, liberties and freedoms here - while they believe you do it allah and muhammads way or die.

[abso]

The muslim filth states it isn't allowed by attempting to kill those who speak out criticism against their pedoprophet. They will issue a fatwah? I believe it is called. If the filth get angry enough at more than one individual, then they start tossing terror attacks within countries they disagree with.

thats the muslims your are talking about, not the islam, angry muslims hate criticism, its not my fault if somone doesnt take criticism, but as i know, my Quran never called for the killing of anyone who criticise it.

if you say that some muslims does terrorist attack in response to the criticism, why do oyu only count the stupid muslims, there is alot more wise muslims, if we are all stupid, then you yourself would be dead right know, if the 1.5 billion muslims are terrorist, then there would be thousand of deaths everyday, be reasonable, dont accuse islam itself as a religion by the action of a small percentage of stupid muslims.


What of Salman Rushdie, legitimate or not?

Also youre back to respect. Lawl. No one has the right not to be offended. End of.

i didnt ask you not to offend me, i asked you not to offend my belief, and not to offend my religion, you can offend me as a person, or offend my actions, but not my religion, you can call the terrorists idiots, or wutever you want, but you dont have to call the islam itself by that, if 1 million muslims are terrorists, and then you call islam as a stupid religion, then you are calling 1500 million people stupid, so you are offending everyone, you are offending people who have never harmed you, and never even spoke to you, is that fair ?

Free speech must respect religion - UN Sec-Gen. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/279745)

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon reaffirmed his predecessor's line on cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, saying free speech should respect religious sensitivities.

"The Secretary-General strongly believes that freedom of expression should be exercised responsibly and in a way that respects all religious beliefs," his spokeswoman Marie Okabe told reporters.

UN Human Rights Council Condemns Defamation Of Religion (http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/un_human_rights_council_condemns_defamation_of_rel igion/)


so what i want to say, is that insulting a religion, has nothing to do with the freedom of speech, even insulting a person is not a free speech, if you want your free speech, then state your opinion in a respective manner, but being inpolite is not a free speech.


Some times there's a fine line between Insult and criticism some can't see that line others have different view of where it is.

Can some one criticize the Koran?
the content as factually false,
or perhaps misleading,
or promoting specific bad practices?

Mohamed is a historical figure as well as your prophet.
Are you saying it's wrong to criticize all histoeical figures.
No one can say anything bad about Mao or George Washington, or Buddha, or a former Pope?

I can an do respect people but some of there actions and words I dont respect or agree with should I keep silent becuase you hold a historical figure in high regard? I have no intention of personally attacking you, but I if I see something wrong in the one you call a prophet. Why should keep silent. i I understand it to be true.

And you say to insult the prophet is not ALLOWED. what does that mean to you?
a verbal rebuke,
a public apology,
a fine,
jail time,
beating,
death?

A combination?

about punishment, i choose one of the those three:
a public apology,
a fine,
jail time,

and the first two combined would be the best, or maybe short time of the third alone, like a week or month.


but those two punishment:
beating,
death?
are very very stupid ideas, and i do not agree with them.

i never said that you cant criticise him, you can and you already do that, but i am saying, dont insult him !!!, you say "he did something wrong which is ************", but you shouldnt insult him, discussing his actions is not an insult, but calling him names, and drawing cartoons of him as a joke, thats an insult.

yes you can discuss the quran, you can discuss its contents, you can discuss its phrases, actually the Quran in its text asked people from other faithes to read the quran and discuss it, it asked them to say what they see wrong about it, thats written in quran, but whats not allowed is calling it a stupid book, i wouldnt respect someone who insult my holy book, if somone have any note to discuss about, then he should say it, otherwise, there is no need to insulting or calling names.


EXACTLY. He won't admit it, but anyone who purposely defames their beloved prophet is expected to be killed, and without a doubt if a "fatwa" is issued against the offender. They wanted Salman Rushdie, the danish guy who wrote the cartoon, the british woman who had the kids in her class choose a name for a teddy bear, and they chose muhammed. Hell, even South Park received death threats.

IMO, anything more than a verbal rebuke is too much. But then again, we believe in rights, liberties and freedoms here - while they believe you do it allah and muhammads way or die.

what is there to admit or deny !!!, its a fact that everyone who insult Muhammed recieve a death threat, why would i deny that !!!

i admit it of course, but what you fail to admit, is he revieving 1.5 billion threats ???, cause thats how many muslims in the world, if he is recieving 2 or 3 or even 100 threats from 100 different people, is that really a reason to say that the 1.5 billion people are mad terrorists ???

what i can say for sure, is that i would never threaten anybody even if he insult GOD himself or Muhammed or Quran or Jesus or Moses, because by the way any insult to Jesus or Moses is an insult to the Quran, because the Quran honors them greatly.

i dont care if anyone insult anything and i wont harm anyone if he does, go ahead and do wutever you like, but i dont want you calling the 1.5 billion muslims terrorists for some actions committed by less than 0.0001% of the muslims.

[Nukeman]

about punishment, i choose one of the those three:
a public apology,
a fine,
jail time,

and the first two combined would be the best, or maybe short time of the third alone, like a week or month.


but those two punishment:
beating,
death?
are very very stupid ideas, and i do not agree with them.

i never said that you cant criticise him, you can and you already do that, but i am saying, dont insult him !!!, you say "he did something wrong which is ************", but you shouldnt insult him, discussing his actions is not an insult, but calling him names, and drawing cartoons of him as a joke, thats an insult.

yes you can discuss the quran, you can discuss its contents, you can discuss its phrases, actually the Quran in its text asked people from other faithes to read the quran and discuss it, it asked them to say what they see wrong about it, thats written in quran, but whats not allowed is calling it a stupid book, i wouldnt respect someone who insult my holy book, if somone have any note to discuss about, then he should say it, otherwise, there is no need to insulting or calling names.Wait are you really telling us that if WE insult your religion than we should be
FINED
APPOLOGY
JAIL TIME...

You have got to be kidding me. What the hell gives you the right to tell me what I can and can not say or think. that there is the freaking problem with Islam and Muslims in general, YOU guys have the hair trigger faux offense and it is quite tiresome at best. Get over yourselves just because YOU believe something does not mean I HAVE TO!!!!!!! That is what FREEDOM is all about.. DO YOU NOT GET THAT. Your rights only extend as far as MINE begin....

[abso]

Wait are you really telling us that if WE insult your religion than we should be
FINED
APPOLOGY
JAIL TIME...

You have got to be kidding me. What the hell gives you the right to tell me what I can and can not say or think. that there is the freaking problem with Islam and Muslims in general, YOU guys have the hair trigger faux offense and it is quite tiresome at best. Get over yourselves just because YOU believe something does not mean I HAVE TO!!!!!!! That is what FREEDOM is all about.. DO YOU NOT GET THAT. Your rights only extend as far as MINE begin....

not insulting the religion only, but insulting persons too should be punished, so if you think that being polite really steal your freedom away, then go ahead and insult everyone, i dont care, but its my opinion that insulting others should be punished by an apology and a fine or 3-7 days in jail.

[Nukeman]

not insulting the religion only, but insulting persons too should be punished, so if you think that being polite really steal your freedom away, then go ahead and insult everyone, i dont care, but its my opinion that insulting others should be punished by an apology and a fine or 3-7 days in jail.See this is where we very. I do NOT insult people jsut because I want to, in fact I usualy go out of my way not to, but and here is the but, people who are crass and rude have the RIGHT to be that way period, No where in our country or the world does it state "you have the right to NOT be offended"

[Noir]

not insulting the religion only, but insulting persons too should be punished, so if you think that being polite really steal your freedom away, then go ahead and insult everyone, i dont care, but its my opinion that insulting others should be punished by an apology and a fine or 3-7 days in jail.

Well you're insulting your own intelligence by posting this tosh, so what would you say is an adequate punishment?

[darin]

Abso,

If I came to visit Cairo, would you show me around?

[abso]

Abso,

If I came to visit Cairo, would you show me around?

sure, you are very welcome at any time, and it will be my pleasure to show you around.


Well you're insulting your own intelligence by posting this tosh, so what would you say is an adequate punishment?

an apology and 3 days without replying to my topics would be enough :laugh2:

[Noir]

an apology and 3 days without replying to my topics would be enough :laugh2:

Mkay, off you go then, And I know you're only apologising to yourself but you'd best do it publicly so we know you've apologised :)

[abso]

Mkay, off you go then, And I know you're only apologising to yourself but you'd best do it publicly so we know you've apologised :)

i guess i should start by not replying for 3 days, its a better sweet punishment, then lets leave the apology for later.

[revelarts]

thats the muslims your are talking about, not the islam, angry muslims hate criticism, its not my fault if somone doesnt take criticism, but as i know, my Quran never called for the killing of anyone who criticise it.

if you say that some muslims does terrorist attack in response to the criticism, why do oyu only count the stupid muslims, there is alot more wise muslims, if we are all stupid, then you yourself would be dead right know, if the 1.5 billion muslims are terrorist, then there would be thousand of deaths everyday, be reasonable, dont accuse islam itself as a religion by the action of a small percentage of stupid muslims.



i didnt ask you not to offend me, i asked you not to offend my belief, and not to offend my religion, you can offend me as a person, or offend my actions, but not my religion, you can call the terrorists idiots, or wutever you want, but you dont have to call the islam itself by that, if 1 million muslims are terrorists, and then you call islam as a stupid religion, then you are calling 1500 million people stupid, so you are offending everyone, you are offending people who have never harmed you, and never even spoke to you, is that fair ?

Free speech must respect religion - UN Sec-Gen. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/279745)

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon reaffirmed his predecessor's line on cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, saying free speech should respect religious sensitivities.

"The Secretary-General strongly believes that freedom of expression should be exercised responsibly and in a way that respects all religious beliefs," his spokeswoman Marie Okabe told reporters.

UN Human Rights Council Condemns Defamation Of Religion (http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/un_human_rights_council_condemns_defamation_of_rel igion/)


so what i want to say, is that insulting a religion, has nothing to do with the freedom of speech, even insulting a person is not a free speech, if you want your free speech, then state your opinion in a respective manner, but being inpolite is not a free speech.



about punishment, i choose one of the those three:
a public apology,
a fine,
jail time,

and the first two combined would be the best, or maybe short time of the third alone, like a week or month.


but those two punishment:
beating,
death?
are very very stupid ideas, and i do not agree with them.

i never said that you cant criticise him, you can and you already do that, but i am saying, dont insult him !!!, you say "he did something wrong which is ************", but you shouldnt insult him, discussing his actions is not an insult, but calling him names, and drawing cartoons of him as a joke, thats an insult.

yes you can discuss the quran, you can discuss its contents, you can discuss its phrases, actually the Quran in its text asked people from other faithes to read the quran and discuss it, it asked them to say what they see wrong about it, thats written in quran, but whats not allowed is calling it a stupid book, i wouldnt respect someone who insult my holy book, if somone have any note to discuss about, then he should say it, otherwise, there is no need to insulting or calling names.



what is there to admit or deny !!!, its a fact that everyone who insult Muhammed recieve a death threat, why would i deny that !!!

i admit it of course, but what you fail to admit, is he revieving 1.5 billion threats ???, cause thats how many muslims in the world, if he is recieving 2 or 3 or even 100 threats from 100 different people, is that really a reason to say that the 1.5 billion people are mad terrorists ???

what i can say for sure, is that i would never threaten anybody even if he insult GOD himself or Muhammed or Quran or Jesus or Moses, because by the way any insult to Jesus or Moses is an insult to the Quran, because the Quran honors them greatly.

i dont care if anyone insult anything and i wont harm anyone if he does, go ahead and do wutever you like, ...

Abso I get the impression that you consider yourself a fairly average Muslim. Part of the Majority of reasonable Muslims around the world.

but Guess what.

What you consider a reasonable response to an Insult to your faith we consider a HUGE Offense to our culture and laws.

As a Christian I've heard and seen Horrible insults and artwork against Jesus Christ. I don't like it but they have to answer to God alone for that not to me. And there will be hell to pay.

the west found out years ago, by its own version of Sunni and Shia wars (protestant vs Catholics) that enforcement of purely sectarian religious laws by the state was wrong and most believers agreed that to force an infidel or heathen to apologize or punish them for blasphemies was not going to change their hearts or make them an inwardly pious believer in God NOR was it commanded by God.

But God Created free men and woman. Free to choose God or reject him.

God will love into Spiritual submission or eventually destroy.
the 1st part Believers are to join in the 2nd is wholly God's. Neither is the states Job. (However the state shouldn't hinder the 1st part)

I have know idea what part of the Quaran tells you to Fine, force an Apology or jail someone for insulting "the prophets" or the Quaran.
please quote it for me.
One thing that always interest me about Islam is the fact that you mention often that you "respect" Jesus well here's a few things.
1 Jesus said
Mathew "43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

I'm not sure where this applies for Muslims, Does it?
or this


51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them[b]?” 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them. 56 Then he and his disciples went to another village.

He didn't ask for Jail time or a public apology. I believe he was the Son of God you say he was a only Prophet ,Still, this was an Insult. Yet he REBUKED the disciples for asking for the death penalty for the offense.

Jesus the Prophet says in another place they where of the WRONG spirit Abso.
What spirit might that be?

Do you really respect the Prophets by jailing people in thier name for insults they can easily bear.

Jesus on the cross said "Forgive them they know not what they do.".

Is Forgiveness a Major part of Islam, Is Mercy, Is Liberty? Frankly we in the U.S. who don't want to "kill all Muslims h"ave a hard time fully opening up to you as well because we Don't want to forced to Respect Mohamed or the Quran or Buddha or Dawkins or any other person or ism.

What you've just done is threaten me.
All due respect to you Abso.
My beliefs will force me to not just to Question yours but to say plainly that Mohamed was at best deceived. And not a Prophet of God at all.

Have I just insulted you?
Have I just insulted Mohamed?

I believe what i just wrote is the truth. so I will not Apologize.

Would I be free to be so bold in Egypt? Could I say that out loud there? I doubt it. And I'd pray long and hard before I did, based on what you and others have told me.

May God's mercy be upon both of us Abso.

[abso]

What you consider a reasonable response to an Insult to your faith we consider a HUGE Offense to our culture and laws.

As a Christian I've heard and seen Horrible insults and artwork against Jesus Christ. I don't like it but they have to answer to God alone for that not to me. And there will be hell to pay.

the west found out years ago, by its own version of Sunni and Shia wars (protestant vs Catholics) that enforcement of purely sectarian religious laws by the state was wrong and most believers agreed that to force an infidel or heathen to apologize or punish them for blasphemies was not going to change their hearts or make them an inwardly pious believer in God NOR was it commanded by God.

But God Created free men and woman. Free to choose God or reject him.

God will love into Spiritual submission or eventually destroy.
the 1st part Believers are to join in the 2nd is wholly God's. Neither is the states Job. (However the state shouldn't hinder the 1st part)

I have know idea what part of the Quaran tells you to Fine, force an Apology or jail someone for insulting "the prophets" or the Quaran.
please quote it for me.

about Quran, no part in it at all calls for an apology or jail time or anything like that, it didnt ask us to do anything at all to anyone who insult the Quran.

i didnt say that its mentioned in quran to make someone apologize for insulting the quran, but i only said that this is my opinion, and my opinion is for the good of people.

Quran and bible didnt ask us to make people respect each other, but for me an insult is something that should be punished, if you cant punish it by a legal way, then the insulted person may just go and get even with the one who insulted him, he may insult him or beat him or even kill him, or he may ignore it, the majority ignores it, but what about other people, nervous ones who cant take the insult, its a problem that exists and we cant just ignore it.

should we allow people to insult each other and not apologize then ask the one who has been insulted to forget about it because he cant legaly do anything about it ???

whats wrong with making him apologize for what he did ???, is beating a person a crime that may get you in jail, but insulting him doesnt worth just an apology ???, i didnt say that there must be jail time, and if there is, i said 3 - 7 days, if insulting someone makes you pay 10$ fine, would you do it ???, you may be a good person who doesnt go around insulting every one, but what about someone who insults dozens of people everyday, should he be allowed to insult everyone because its his right to do so ???, in what way is insulting someone a freedom ???, a freedom is about doing something to yourself and not to others, if you want to kill yourself, go ahead and do it, if you want to call yourself an idiot, then do it, but killing someone else or insulting someone else is not freedom, thats my opinion and it have nothing to do with Quran at all.




One thing that always interest me about Islam is the fact that you mention often that you "respect" Jesus well here's a few things.
1 Jesus said
Mathew "43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

I'm not sure where this applies for Muslims, Does it?

yes it applies for muslims


51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?” 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them. 56 Then he and his disciples went to another village.

He didn't ask for Jail time or a public apology. I believe he was the Son of God you say he was a only Prophet ,Still, this was an Insult. Yet he REBUKED the disciples for asking for the death penalty for the offense.



that also applies for muslims through many verses in Quran and many examples in Muhammed's life, he was so tolerant to abuses he met during his life, and never asked for any punishment for someone who insulted him.

but are we jesus and Muhammed ???
do you really think that we are up to their morals ???
will we just take an insult and shut up ???

i will say that most of us will not like to be insulted and will do something about it, so if there is a small fine for insulting someone, that would be better than letting people insult each other and take revenge on their own.


Jesus the Prophet says in another place they where of the WRONG spirit Abso.

What spirit might that be?
i am not sure what he meant, but i guess he meant that they are the misguided people or lost spirits, if what i understood is true then Quran says the same about them, whenever Muhammed was insulted he just prayed for the person who insulted him to find the right path in his life and stop doing wrong.



Do you really respect the Prophets by jailing people in thier name for insults they can easily bear.

again i said that the jail time is not my first choice, the fine is better, and even if there is jail time, i said 3 days, is it that much ???

and i didnt say that the fine or jail time should be for insulting prophets, i said for insulting anyone, not just prophets, if we all know that we will pay 5 or 10$ for insulting someone, i guess we will all think twice before doing so.

like here in egypt, none has ever cared about wearing the seat belt in cars, but when the police started fining then 100 LE for not wearing them, nearly everyone is wearing them now, so does the seat belt harm you if someone doesnt wear them ???, but we make them pay a fine if they dont wear it to make them wear it, because its the right thing to do, and we should fine people for insults to make them stop insulting others, because its the right thing to do, its not so hard to do the right thing, and it doesnt violate your freedom by doing the right thing.

freedom is when you choose to move from newyork to california, or choose to be a doctor or engineer, or choose to play basketball instead of football, or choose to drink cofee or tea, and so many other things

BUT choosing to insult someone or not, thats not the kind of freedom that i can agree with.


Jesus on the cross said "Forgive them they know not what they do.".


Is Forgiveness a Major part of Islam, Is Mercy, Is Liberty? Frankly we in the U.S. who don't want to "kill all Muslims h"ave a hard time fully opening up to you as well because we Don't want to forced to Respect Mohamed or the Quran or Buddha or Dawkins or any other person or ism.

yes forgiveness is one of the most important parts in islam:

“Hold to forgiveness, command what is right, and turn away from the ignorant.” (Qur’an, 7: 199)

“… They should rather pardon and overlook. Would you not love Allah to forgive you? Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Qur’an, 24:22)

“…. But if you pardon and exonerate and forgive, Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Qur’an, 64: 14)

“But if someone is steadfast and forgives, that is the most resolute course to follow.” (Qur’an, 42:43)

“control their rage and pardon other people.” (Qur’an, 3:134)

[B]“The repayment of a bad action is one equivalent to it. But if someone pardons and puts things right, his reward is with Allah…” (Qur’an, 42:40)

Although the just requital for an injustice is an equivalent retribution, those who pardon and maintain righteousness are rewarded by GOD. He does not love the unjust. (Qur'an 42:40).



What you've just done is threaten me.
All due respect to you Abso.
My beliefs will force me to not just to Question yours but to say plainly that Mohamed was at best deceived. And not a Prophet of God at all.


I am sorry if you feel that way, but i dont want to threaten anyone, i just want people to treat each other in the right way, if they like it or not, they have to stop disrespecting each other and insulting each other, that is not freedom.

i dont need you to believe that Muhammed is a prophet, its your freedom to believe it or not, i just dont want you to disrespect him with your words, and you didnt, and for that i am very greatful to you.

saying that he is not a prophet is not disrespect its just your belief and i respect it.


Have I just insulted you?
Have I just insulted Mohamed?

No, you havent insulted anyone with your words, and i respect you and appreciate your way in talking without disrespect for my beliefs.


I believe what i just wrote is the truth. so I will not Apologize.

No need for apologizing, you havent said anything disrespectful.



Would I be free to be so bold in Egypt? Could I say that out loud there? I doubt it. And I'd pray long and hard before I did, based on what you and others have told me.

i am not sure, maybe someone nervoue reacts in a violent way, but what i am sure of, that if i am there with you, i wont do anything to you, and i wont let anyone do anything violent.

[Noir]

Quran and bible didnt ask us to make people respect each other, but for me an insult is something that should be punished, if you cant punish it by a legal way, then the insulted person may just go and get even with the one who insulted him, he may insult him or beat him or even kill him, or he may ignore it, the majority ignores it, but what about other people, nervous ones who cant take the insult, its a problem that exists and we cant just ignore it.

And if the person does beat or murder the person that insulted then then they will be legally punished.

As a query, who decides if it's an insult? The person who's being insulted?

And what If say a young women is put into an arranged marriage by her father, and she says she does not want to marry the man, is she insulting her father? Is it gail time for her?


What if I find it insulting that you expect me to respect your religion? Because if you expect the legal system to support your right to be respected, then I certainly am.

[abso]

And if the person does beat or murder the person that insulted then then they will be legally punished.

As a query, who decides if it's an insult? The person who's being insulted?

And what If say a young women is put into an arranged marriage by her father, and she says she does not want to marry the man, is she insulting her father? Is it gail time for her?


What if I find it insulting that you expect me to respect your religion? Because if you expect the legal system to support your right to be respected, then I certainly am.

so everyone is concentrated on jail time !!!, i said 3 days, is it really much ???, you may be grounded for over 2 weeks by your parents when you do something wrong, but 3 days in jail or 10$ fine is much ?

and no, a girl refusing to marry someone is not an insult, how can that be an insult, please stop inventing irrelevant situation.

if you dont want to respect my religion, then dont, but you dont have to say thats its a stupid religion to me, you can keep that word to yourself, when an insult is still in your head, its just a thought, and you can think about anything the way you want, but when you say it then its an insult.

when you think that someone is stupid, thats not an insult, but when you say it to him, thats the insult and you should apologize for it.

so think wutever you want about me or my religion, but when you speak to me, speak with respect, thats the way it should be.

and yes, if the person beats who insulted him, he should go to jail for it, but how come that the legal system asks him not to do anything to someone who insults him while it will not do anything to that person, so everyone has the right to insult each other, and we cant do anything about it ???, how can that be right ???

so again you are saying that freedom inculdes freedom of insult ???, i really want someone to explain to me, how can an insult be a freedom ???, freedom is only when you do something that affect you only, but when its something that affects others, then you are not free to do wutever you want.

what you people are saying is that saying words doesnt matter, only actions are, so only physical pain matters while emotions doesnt matter ???, people who are told all their life that they are fat and made fun of, people who are told that they are idiots everyday of their life, people who get insulted everyday on daily basis, those people i believe that they all develop Psychiatric illnesses within their personalities, an insult doesnt matter to you, but it really matters to the person getting insulted from everyone.

all i am saying that people shouldnt insult each other, and you all disagree with me !!!, all i am asking for is some morals and you all want the freedom of insulting each other ???

and yeah that what i am asking for, forcing people to be good, when someone kills, we force him to stop, so why when someone insults others, we let him do it ???

if most of us doesnt have this simple manners nowdays, then we must make them learn it, and we shouldnt let them be like that.

i am not asking for their death!!!, just 10$ fine would be enough to make everyone stop insulting each other in any situation that they dont like, they will learn to be calm and think before they insult and then pay those 10$.

[jimnyc]

so think wutever you want about me or my religion, but when you speak to me, speak with respect, thats the way it should be.

Fuck you. A person EARNS respect, and I'll be damned if I do so at the demand of the Islamic faith who still live in the stone ages. I'll say whatI want about Islam or Muhammad, whenever I want, and there ain't shit the muslims can do about it. Jail time or fines for speaking what one believes? Fuck that. Forcing people to think a certain way is why Islam has so many fuckups who end up strapping bombs to themselves.

And you forever preach about how great it is in Egypt, but in your reply to Revelarts you infer that if someone were to "get nervous and act in a violent way". First off, why would any sane person become nervous over what another person believes or doesn't believe? Secondly, someone is going to get violent and try and hurt and/or kill someone because they don't believe the same thing? Yeah!!! Sounds like a lovely place that I'll never want to visit!!

[revelarts]

Abso your reply was interesting.

So it's not in the Quaran or taught in Islam that someone should be punished, at all, for NOT believing or respecting the Tenants or Founders of Islam. (I'm not quite sure why people keep protesting in streets of Europe then? but i'll leave that for later.)
I'm glad we ,at least, can talk openly without "getting nervous" and trying the beat the crap out of each other.
So, if I understand you, the Apology--Fine--Jail over "Insults" would be more your cultural and personal preference then.
I can understand that your culture believes that an insult is worthy of more than Just a verbal rebuke. In Europe and America, not to long ago culturally speaking, men fought duels with swords and later guns over perceived insults. A few of U.S. Presidents fought them. The practiced died out in the late 1880's in the west. And was finally outlawed. At this point we don't believe any Harsh Words of any kind rise to the level of Duels or State sanctioned punishments. The only words that the State punishes for are items that are demonstrably lies that also defame a person, and damage his or her reputation or livelihood. It's called Libel here. However people still ,in a heat of passion , might throw a punch or 2. Immature Teenagers, Gang members and Drunks in bars are known for fighting over insults. But, generally, most people just take it or yell back and move on then try to forget it.
I believe that's a much better way to go and closer to what both of our scriptures teaches. I'd like to hope that your culture would lean toward the better kinder tendencies of your religion (Converting the Christianity would be better). But it took nearly 100 years for us to wean it out of our culture and I'm not sure if your culture is moving in that direction or not? Until we're sure I'll Have to assume Someone might get nervous and want to kill me for talking in the extreme. And make sure i don't vote in any Muslims or maybe Cultural middle easterners just in case they feel as you do. And want to make "Insults" Illegal -fine and jail- us. Here we call that the "thought police" Not sure if you've read the book 1984. And I think Noir's and my question is still outstanding, who decides what is an insult?

Concerning freedom to insult, yes, we consider that part of the price we pay for freedom.
The fact is we know some people will abuse that freedom, However we prefer that to the idea someone can claim an insult and pack us off to jail.
Freedom of speech means freedom for people not just to think
but to say, write and publish etc..
almost whatever they feel.
Sadly some people will be rude and hate filled.
And sadly verbal civility is thought of by many these days as "old fashion" or "prudish" or "repressive" or weak.
But the state only punishes libel and some profanities out of certain boundaries. (which sadly have expanded beyond to nearly nothing.).

i know of several Muslims who LOVE the idea of Freedom of speech and have moved here because of it. (among the other Freedoms we are trying to hold onto here). If you check your soul I wouldn't be surprised if you find that you like it too.

[abso]

Abso your reply was interesting.

So it's not in the Quaran or taught in Islam that someone should be punished, at all, for NOT believing or respecting the Tenants or Founders of Islam. (I'm not quite sure why people keep protesting in streets of Europe then? but i'll leave that for later.)
I'm glad we ,at least, can talk openly without "getting nervous" and trying the beat the crap out of each other.
So, if I understand you, the Apology--Fine--Jail over "Insults" would be more your cultural and personal preference then.
I can understand that your culture believes that an insult is worthy of more than Just a verbal rebuke. In Europe and America, not to long ago culturally speaking, men fought duels with swords and later guns over perceived insults. A few of U.S. Presidents fought them. The practiced died out in the late 1880's in the west. And was finally outlawed. At this point we don't believe any Harsh Words of any kind rise to the level of Duels or State sanctioned punishments. The only words that the State punishes for are items that are demonstrably lies that also defame a person, and damage his or her reputation or livelihood. It's called Libel here. However people still ,in a heat of passion , might throw a punch or 2. Immature Teenagers, Gang members and Drunks in bars are known for fighting over insults. But, generally, most people just take it or yell back and move on then try to forget it.
I believe that's a much better way to go and closer to what both of our scriptures teaches. I'd like to hope that your culture would lean toward the better kinder tendencies of your religion (Converting the Christianity would be better). But it took nearly 100 years for us to wean it out of our culture and I'm not sure if your culture is moving in that direction or not? Until we're sure I'll Have to assume Someone might get nervous and want to kill me for talking in the extreme. And make sure i don't vote in any Muslims or maybe Cultural middle easterners just in case they feel as you do. And want to make "Insults" Illegal -fine and jail- us. Here we call that the "thought police" Not sure if you've read the book 1984. And I think Noir's and my question is still outstanding, who decides what is an insult?

Concerning freedom to insult, yes, we consider that part of the price we pay for freedom.
The fact is we know some people will abuse that freedom, However we prefer that to the idea someone can claim an insult and pack us off to jail.
Freedom of speech means freedom for people not just to think
but to say, write and publish etc..
almost whatever they feel.
Sadly some people will be rude and hate filled.
And sadly verbal civility is thought of by many these days as "old fashion" or "prudish" or "repressive" or weak.
But the state only punishes libel and some profanities out of certain boundaries. (which sadly have expanded beyond to nearly nothing.).

i know of several Muslims who LOVE the idea of Freedom of speech and have moved here because of it. (among the other Freedoms we are trying to hold onto here). If you check your soul I wouldn't be surprised if you find that you like it too.

i never said that i dont like freedom of speech, i like it of course, and about moving to USA, i will go wherever its best for my career, so if i found a better chance in USA then i will move there.

again jail time is not neccessary, but if you make someone pay 5 or 10$ for insulting others, then he will learn to calm down and control his anger, that is effective way to make someone stop the insults.

about culture, not even my culture force people not to insult each other, i see people insult each other everyday here in egypt, like you see them in USA, we are just humans, and insulting is actually a part of our life, we always get nervous and insult each other.

but if we will all pay a small fine for insulting, i would say that this will be a very effective way to make people control their anger.

i am not a saint, i insult people sometimes, but i always regret it, and i try to control my anger and stop talking when i am angry, it would be alot better if i could stop insulting people when i am nervous or angry.

[Noir]

so everyone is concentrated on jail time !!!, i said 3 days, is it really much ???, you may be grounded for over 2 weeks by your parents when you do something wrong, but 3 days in jail or 10$ fine is much ?

We yes, firstly it's a criminal record offence that carries a custodial sentence. Not to mention the disruption it would cause to family life (a parent suddenly being locked up will have to find childcare for 3 days) and then ofcourse they have to sort it would with their work...'Hey, Dr. Campbell here, I'm not going to be able to perform surgery for the next 3 days, said to a Muslim that his religion was silly and, well you know, by the way do you know a good childminder?'

and no, a girl refusing to marry someone is not an insult, how can that be an insult, please stop inventing irrelevant situation.

if you dont want to respect my religion, then dont, but you dont have to say thats its a stupid religion to me, you can keep that word to yourself, when an insult is still in your head, its just a thought, and you can think about anything the way you want, but when you say it then its an insult.


when you think that someone is stupid, thats not an insult, but when you say it to him, thats the insult and you should apologize for it.

And what about inference? I mean, if you tell me something and I don't believe you, am I insulting you by telling you I think you're wrong?

so think wutever you want about me or my religion, but when you speak to me, speak with respect, thats the way it should be.


and yes, if the person beats who insulted him, he should go to jail for it, but how come that the legal system asks him not to do anything to someone who insults him while it will not do anything to that person, so everyone has the right to insult each other, and we cant do anything about it ???, how can that be right ???

Yep, that's right.
You know we have a little rhyme where I come from, maybe you know of it. 'Sticks and Stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me' we teach that to CHILDREN if an adult can't take being called an idiot then they're an idiot.


so again you are saying that freedom inculdes freedom of insult ???, i really want someone to explain to me, how can an insult be a freedom ???, freedom is only when you do something that affect you only, but when its something that affects others, then you are not free to do wutever you want.

Yes, we have the right to insult, just in as much as we have the right to compliment. I've also never seen your definition of freedom before, but that's not a surprise.


what you people are saying is that saying words doesnt matter, only actions are, so only physical pain matters while emotions doesnt matter ???, people who are told all their life that they are fat and made fun of, people who are told that they are idiots everyday of their life, people who get insulted everyday on daily basis, those people i believe that they all develop Psychiatric illnesses within their personalities, an insult doesnt matter to you, but it really matters to the person getting insulted from everyone.

Ofcourse it can matter, that's why there are laws in place to counter harassment, or bullying in the workplace etc. But to use that to justify making insults a criminal offence is daft.


all i am saying that people shouldnt insult each other, and you all disagree with me !!!, all i am asking for is some morals and you all want the freedom of insulting each other ???

Because there is no way to separate being critical from being insulting.


and yeah that what i am asking for, forcing people to be good, when someone kills, we force him to stop, so why when someone insults others, we let him do it ???

Forcing people to be good? Have you seen the movie 'A Clickwork Orange'?


if most of us doesnt have this simple manners nowdays, then we must make them learn it, and we shouldnt let them be like that.

Sounding even more 'clockwork orange' or '1984' here


I am not asking for their death!!!, just 10$ fine would be enough to make everyone stop insulting each other in any situation that they dont like, they will learn to be calm and think before they insult and then pay those 10$.

See my first point. You have no idea what you are even advocating.

[Noir]

Abso, you should watch this. (I think I've posted it before but idk of you saw it)

A 2 min clip by Steve Hughes on offending people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-JxA9Rvs8I&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[abso]

We yes, firstly it's a criminal record offence that carries a custodial sentence. Not to mention the disruption it would cause to family life (a parent suddenly being locked up will have to find childcare for 3 days) and then ofcourse they have to sort it would with their work...'Hey, Dr. Campbell here, I'm not going to be able to perform surgery for the next 3 days, said to a Muslim that his religion was silly and, well you know, by the way do you know a good childminder?'

okay, then forget about jail time if it annoys you that much, there is the fine which is alot better as i already said many times.
even jail time can be removed from the criminal record, you are using a point which i would call pointless, if there is really a jail time for insulting, then they can just not add it to the criminal record if thats the point that you argue about.

but about the childcare and work, you are right, it would be a problem, so as i said, a small fine would be better to make the person stop being harsh to everyone around him.


And what about inference? I mean, if you tell me something and I don't believe you, am I insulting you by telling you I think you're wrong?

no, if you respond to me politley and say that i am wrong, there is nothing wrong or insulting about that, like how revelarts is responding to me, he says that i am wrong about this issue, but he never insulted me even once in his replies, that respectful way is the right way for people to talk to each other.

you dont have to agree with me on my opinion, you have your own, and you can say them freely, but in a respectful manner, thats all.



Yep, that's right.
You know we have a little rhyme where I come from, maybe you know of it. 'Sticks and Stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me' we teach that to CHILDREN if an adult can't take being called an idiot then they're an idiot.

no, names will hurt, its very wrong to think that names and insults dosnt hurt, they can cause everything, from a coward who always hear them and dont react and then he will probably have Psychiatric illness from always hearing that, to a nervous person who may react violently to an insult, you have to take account for all the types of human beings while you are thinking about a situation, you cant just blame the nervous person for his responce while you are not blaming at all the one who started it even if he doesnt bear the same responsibility of that fight but he is also responsible for it in some way.

you cant just prevent the consequences while you are not trying to prevent the reason at all.


Ofcourse it can matter, that's why there are laws in place to counter harassment, or bullying in the workplace etc. But to use that to justify making insults a criminal offence is daft.

if words really matter, then how can you say that paying 10$ fine is not acceptable when people insult others ?


Because there is no way to separate being critical from being insulting.

you may be correct, but from my point of view, i think there is big difference between being critical and being insulting.

when you are reviewing someone's work, and you say that its not good enough, thats is not an insult, but when you call it stupid and call the person retarded because he cant get the work done in the right way, that is what i call insult, we can always state our opinions in a respectful manner, we can tell him that his work is not of adequate quality and you need it done again in a better way, there is alot of ways to respond in a calm respectful way.


Forcing people to be good? Have you seen the movie 'A Clickwork Orange'?

You have traffic fines for:
parking violations
speeding violations
failure to stop at a signal
seat belt violation

so you are forcing people to wear seat belts ???, you are forcing them to be safe ???, then how is forcing them to stop insults by making them pay fines is kind of funny to you ?

if its freedom that you seek, then why dont i have the right not to wear my seat belt, its only my safety that is being compromised, i am not endangering anyone else if i dont wear the seat belt, i am not affecting anyone else, but yet, its a violation and deserves a fine.

but when i am actually affecting someone by insulting him, its too much to make me pay a fine ???

[Noir]

This is how a man deals with an insult, no prison or fines or whatnot.
Simples :3

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs938.snc4/75144_456218012103_506277103_5653055_3902483_n.jpg

[abso]

This is how a man deals with an insult, no prison or fines or whatnot.
Simples :3

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs938.snc4/75144_456218012103_506277103_5653055_3902483_n.jpg

yes simple, but its just another insult.

[revelarts]

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