View Full Version : All powerful beings, above your praise?
The thread centres around the following quote...
"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." --- Benjamin Franklin, from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728
It always struck me as a little odd that any sort of all powerful Being would want/need our praise. Your thoughts?
PostmodernProphet
10-17-2010, 07:37 AM
The thread centres around the following quote...
It always struck me as a little odd that any sort of all powerful Being would want/need our praise. Your thoughts?
it strikes me a little odd that it strikes you a little odd.....if you painted a masterpiece would you expect it to claim the neighbor did it?.....
it strikes me a little odd that it strikes you a little odd.....if you painted a masterpiece would you expect it to claim the neighbor did it?.....
Am I an omnipotent deity in this wee story or am I human?
BoogyMan
10-17-2010, 08:49 AM
The thread centres around the following quote...
It always struck me as a little odd that any sort of all powerful Being would want/need our praise. Your thoughts?
Why does it bother you? It is obviously something you have no part in (by your own choice) and as such should cause you no pause at all.
Why does it bother you? It is obviously something you have no part in (by your own choice) and as such should cause you no pause at all.
It doesn't bother me, I just think it's odd. I mean if i did believe in some sort of all powerful being, the last thing I'd think is that it would care about what I thought about it's work, and that it needed my praise/approval.
BoogyMan
10-17-2010, 12:18 PM
It doesn't bother me, I just think it's odd. I mean if i did believe in some sort of all powerful being, the last thing I'd think is that it would care about what I thought about it's work, and that it needed my praise/approval.
You are looking at it improperly. Man was created by God for His own purposes. He has no need of our praise, he demands it from His creation.
You are looking at it improperly. Man was created by God for His own purposes. He has no need of our praise, he demands it from His creation.
He has no need for it, but demands it? See what I mean, odd.
DragonStryk72
10-17-2010, 06:48 PM
The thread centres around the following quote...
It always struck me as a little odd that any sort of all powerful Being would want/need our praise. Your thoughts?
Well, just a shot in the dark here, but you do good things for people without expecting a thank you from them sometimes, right? Well, if they did say thank you, you would still feel good about it. Same basic concept here, is the difference between needs and wants.
You spend more than 90% of your day dealing with wants, not needs (A toilet for instance, is not a "need". it is a want, as you can piss and shit anywhere, you simply want to do so in a proper toilet.). Letting God have one desire to hear some thanks isn't really asking that much.
SassyLady
10-17-2010, 07:29 PM
Do I want my children to respect me? Yes.
Do I need my children to respect me? No.
Do I demand that my children respect me? I have.
Do my children respect me? Most of the time.
Well, just a shot in the dark here, but you do good things for people without expecting a thank you from them sometimes, right? Well, if they did say thank you, you would still feel good about it. Same basic concept here, is the difference between needs and wants.
You spend more than 90% of your day dealing with wants, not needs (A toilet for instance, is not a "need". it is a want, as you can piss and shit anywhere, you simply want to do so in a proper toilet.). Letting God have one desire to hear some thanks isn't really asking that much.
The point is however, how can you even start to fulfil the desire of an all powerful being, infect how can a god even have a desire in the first place, afterall it is *everything* To say that a god wants your praise and cares what you think about him is a bit silly imo.
Do I want my children to respect me? Yes.
Do I need my children to respect me? No.
Do I demand that my children respect me? I have.
Do my children respect me? Most of the time.
Are you omnipotent or human? (and being a mother doesn't count as being omnipotent =P)
SassyLady
10-17-2010, 07:47 PM
Are you omnipotent or human? (and being a mother doesn't count as being omnipotent =P)
Of course it counts ... :coffee:
PostmodernProphet
10-17-2010, 09:29 PM
Am I an omnipotent deity in this wee story or am I human?
neither.....you are a creator.....
are you saying that you can define the differences between the perspective of a human and a deity?.........
that it needed my praise/approval.
if you give someone a present, do you expect them to say thank you out of "praise/approval"?.......how about gratitude?.......
He has no need for it
but do we?.....is it for his "benefit" or ours?......
neither.....you are a creator.....
are you saying that you can define the differences between the perspective of a human and a deity?.........
Yes I think there is a difference in the perspective of a Human and an omnipotent deity. You don't?
if you give someone a present, do you expect them to say thank you out of "praise/approval"?.......how about gratitude?.......
Am I an omnipotent deity giving a present?
but do we?.....is it for his "benefit" or ours?......
So you praise your god for your own benefit?
Abbey Marie
10-17-2010, 11:22 PM
Try this, Noir:
Luke 19:
37When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:
38"Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!"[b]
"Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!"
39Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!"
40"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."
DragonStryk72
10-18-2010, 12:12 AM
The point is however, how can you even start to fulfil the desire of an all powerful being, infect how can a god even have a desire in the first place, afterall it is *everything* To say that a god wants your praise and cares what you think about him is a bit silly imo.
God is omnipotent/omniscient. He is not everything, merely the creator of it all.
PostmodernProphet
10-18-2010, 07:18 AM
Yes I think there is a difference in the perspective of a Human and an omnipotent deity. You don't?
yes, but unlike you I'm not able to define how an omnipotent deity "ought" to think.....
Am I an omnipotent deity giving a present?
well you certainly aren't a normal human being giving answers....
So you praise your god for your own benefit?
do parents teach their children to say "thank you" for things because it benefits the people who gave the thing or because it's an important thing for the children to learn.....
Try this, Noir:
Indeedy, obviously the bible says praise god, and im sure religious texts for all other gods say something similar. However the point still remains that you are trying to praise something so great you can't even conceive what it is. And nit only are you trying to praise it, but you're doing so on the understanding that it cares what you think about it and it's creation etc.
God is omnipotent/omniscient. He is not everything, merely the creator of it all.
Honestly, the word "merely" made me laugh out loud xD
But as you say he's not everything, can you give me examples of what he isn't?
yes, but unlike you I'm not able to define how an omnipotent deity "ought" to think.....
Well, you do, you think he ought to care about you given you've chosen to follow him, and that he ought not to change his mind and just decide everyone should go to hell etc.
well you certainly aren't a normal human being giving answers....
So you think i'ma god? Cool.
do parents teach their children to say "thank you" for things because it benefits the people who gave the thing or because it's an important thing for the children to learn.....
Are these parents omniscient/omnipotent deities or humans? (You may notice a pattern, when analogies of human behaviour are used you reducing your god to the level of a human, with human desires etc)
darin
10-18-2010, 08:21 AM
God does not need us. That's the first lesson. The very image of God painted by many in the 'christian' church is one of an arrogant deity. Christ never demanded worship or praise, based on what we have in the Bible. Christ allowed people to 'bless' him for THEIR sake, not his.
I believe the concept of Worship is man-made - in the sense we try to impress God by saying nice things to him. I believe when God mentions worship in the bible he's doing so for OUR sake, not his.
There is a certain humility and brilliance that comes from Giving of oneself - of recognizing one's low place, universally, and acknowleging God's providence. Sure. WE learn from that more than God 'needs' it.
When my kids, as an example, compliment me - or give me Father's Day cards expressing love and thanks - I allow them to, and graciously accept their tokens soley based upon my desire to have them exercise their humilty and express their affections. I don't provide for them any more or any less based on them saying nice things to me. I don't feed them less, clothe them less, guide them less when they mis-behave. In fact, when my kids break my rules it hurts THEM...not me. When they 'sin' against me I love them and attend to them MORE. If my son, from today on through until the day before my death cursed me, and did everything he could to spite me I'd love him. If he did that until that very day I died, but approached me 1 minute before my last breath I'd certainly love him and welcome him home.
If I can figure that out, I'm positive God can, too.
PostmodernProphet
10-18-2010, 09:48 AM
Well, you do, you think he ought to care about you given you've chosen to follow him, and that he ought not to change his mind and just decide everyone should go to hell etc.
uh, no....I've just read what he's told us about him....
So you think i'ma god? Cool.
well, you've made yourself a god-unto-yourself......I don't see much likelihood of it's catching on anywhere, but hey, stranger things have happened.....
Are these parents omniscient/omnipotent deities or humans? (You may notice a pattern, when analogies of human behaviour are used you reducing your god to the level of a human, with human desires etc)
/shrugs.....on the other hand, you're pretending you have knowledge of god-behavior.....for all I know gods have a higher pedantic nature than human parents......after all, God spoke much in the OT about teaching Israel how to behave......
KarlMarx
10-18-2010, 02:06 PM
The thread centres around the following quote...
It always struck me as a little odd that any sort of all powerful Being would want/need our praise. Your thoughts?
God gave us free will. I think He wants us to love Him back.
1 Samuel ch 15 verse 22
"Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams."
BoogyMan
10-18-2010, 02:13 PM
He has no need for it, but demands it? See what I mean, odd.
I cannot see why you find that odd. It seems quite natural.
SassyLady
10-18-2010, 03:51 PM
Noir, the truly awesome thing about all this, is that God will still love you even if you don't give praise.
If you believe in the idea that we are all a part of God, then when you are offering praise, you are benefitting each and every one of us.
Abbey Marie
10-18-2010, 04:33 PM
Indeedy, obviously the bible says praise god, and im sure religious texts for all other gods say something similar. However the point still remains that you are trying to praise something so great you can't even conceive what it is. And nit only are you trying to praise it, but you're doing so on the understanding that it cares what you think about it and it's creation etc.
Noir, you missed the point. The creation needs to worship its Creator.
It is the nature of our being to do so. Of course God does not need it. As D says below, we do.
Let's try an earthly example: Humans have always needed someone to look up to, to praise, to worship, if you will. We often (ignorantly) choose kings, politicians, athletes, musicians and actors for this. Perhaps for you, it's Morrissey. Perhaps you have heard of that God-sized hole in our hearts that must be filled?
We have the need, and we instinctively know that someone who is better (smarter/stronger/wiser,etc.) must fit the bill. And only God is truly worthy
darin
10-18-2010, 06:02 PM
Are people who don't believe in God Godophobic? Should their anit-god talk be called 'hate speech'?
;)
DragonStryk72
10-18-2010, 07:26 PM
Well, you do, you think he ought to care about you given you've chosen to follow him, and that he ought not to change his mind and just decide everyone should go to hell etc.
So you think i'ma god? Cool.
Are these parents omniscient/omnipotent deities or humans? (You may notice a pattern, when analogies of human behaviour are used you reducing your god to the level of a human, with human desires etc)
Noir, I hate to break this to you, but you've made any real debate on this topic completely impossible. No degree of reasoning will be sufficient for you. You are utterly mired in your devout belief that God must be removed from all thoughts and emotions that are even vaguely human, which is silly, given the point that God created us and let us thrive, creating us in his own image. Why do that if you have no ego? Until we are deities ourselves, which I don't see happening, there is no way to answer your question.
Actually, it might interest you to note that God initially wanted no temple, that Solomon was actually going against god's wishes to establish the first Hebrew temple. He said, pretty flatly, "Build me no places of worship", it doesn't get clearer than that. He wanted real faith, not religion.
Noir, I hate to break this to you, but you've made any real debate on this topic completely impossible. No degree of reasoning will be sufficient for you. You are utterly mired in your devout belief that God must be removed from all thoughts and emotions that are even vaguely human, which is silly, given the point that God created us and let us thrive, creating us in his own image. Why do that if you have no ego? Until we are deities ourselves, which I don't see happening, there is no way to answer your question.
I know there's no real answer, as I would of thought that everyone posting knows, I just wanted to hear why some (or it seems all) think that they should praise something that they really can't.
Actually, it might interest you to note that God initially wanted no temple, that Solomon was actually going against god's wishes to establish the first Hebrew temple. He said, pretty flatly, "Build me no places of worship", it doesn't get clearer than that. He wanted real faith, not religion.
That does interest me, why doesn't it seem to interest those who use temples/churches on a day to day basis?
Noir, you missed the point. The creation needs to worship its Creator.
It is the nature of our being to do so. Of course God does not need it. As D says below, we do.
Let's try an earthly example: Humans have always needed someone to look up to, to praise, to worship, if you will. We often (ignorantly) choose kings, politicians, athletes, musicians and actors for this. Perhaps for you, it's Morrissey. Perhaps you have heard of that God-sized hole in our hearts that must be filled?
We have the need, and we instinctively know that someone who is better (smarter/stronger/wiser,etc.) must fit the bill. And only God is truly worthy
Ofcourse I admire people, but I certainly do not worship them.
As for holes in hearts, mines pretty fine without Zues, Thor and Yaweh.
BoogyMan
10-18-2010, 09:56 PM
I know there's no real answer, as I would of thought that everyone posting knows, I just wanted to hear why some (or it seems all) think that they should praise something that they really can't.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
So what was your point again? :)
KarlMarx
10-19-2010, 02:01 PM
I think BoogeyMan has a good point....
If I have to use logic to get you to believe in something, then what's the point?
Belief does not require proof.
Abbey Marie
10-20-2010, 04:29 PM
I know there's no real answer, as I would of thought that everyone posting knows, I just wanted to hear why some (or it seems all) think that they should praise something that they really can't.
That does interest me, why doesn't it seem to interest those who use temples/churches on a day to day basis?
Ofcourse I admire people, but I certainly do not worship them.
As for holes in hearts, mines pretty fine without Zues, Thor and Yaweh.
Perhaps you don't (not sure on that, though) but millions of others have and do. I know you've seen it, over and over.
Perhaps you don't (not sure on that, though) but millions of others have and do. I know you've seen it, over and over.
You don't have to be sure about it, I am.
Ofcourse plently do, heck, most apear to worship chickens or pigs once they are murdered, sliced up and have their flesh fried. Just because *most* do something certainly doesn't mean it's desirable.
Abbey Marie
10-20-2010, 05:28 PM
You don't have to be sure about it, I am.
Ofcourse plently do, heck, most apear to worship chickens or pigs once they are murdered, sliced up and have their flesh fried. Just because *most* do something certainly doesn't mean it's desirable.
Ok, so you are now admitting that people seek to worship other humans, as I said in a past post. The need is there, whether you are comfortable admitting it or not.
Ok, so you are now admitting that people seek to worship other humans, as I said in a past post. The need is there, whether you are comfortable admitting it or not.
No, I'm saying they can. I do not need to, nor do you or anyone else, if you chose to worship something because you want to, fair enough. I dont.
It's amazing how servile some humans seem to want to be though, even when such servility requires the destruction of all that is human.
Abbey Marie
10-21-2010, 12:16 AM
No, I'm saying they can. I do not need to, nor do you or anyone else, if you chose to worship something because you want to, fair enough. I dont.
It's amazing how servile some humans seem to want to be though, even when such servility requires the destruction of all that is human.
Given all the evidence of people going nuts praising and all-but-deifying other humans, actors, athletes, etc., you are unable to logically claim that there is no need to worship. It's a powerful force, far beyond a simple "wanting".
One small example- "Clapton is God". Sound familiar?
SassyLady
10-21-2010, 01:25 AM
You don't have to be sure about it, I am.
Ofcourse plently do, heck, most apear to worship chickens or pigs once they are murdered, sliced up and have their flesh fried. Just because *most* do something certainly doesn't mean it's desirable.
It might not make it desirable to YOU, Noir, but to those who are doing it......it must be desirable, else why do it?
Why does it bother you so much that people believe in God and get comfort and solace from saying thank you or giving praise? Why do you try so hard to denigrate the concept?
Are you proselytizing for your religion - atheism?
Given all the evidence of people going nuts praising and all-but-deifying other humans, actors, athletes, etc., you are unable to logically claim that there is no need to worship. It's a powerful force, far beyond a simple "wanting".
One small example- "Clapton is God". Sound familiar?
Well ofcourse I can not logically prove a need,
However given I don't have this need I'm apparently defective =/
It might not make it desirable to YOU, Noir, but to those who are doing it......it must be desirable, else why do it?
Why does it bother you so much that people believe in God and get comfort and solace from saying thank you or giving praise? Why do you try so hard to denigrate the concept?
Are you proselytizing for your religion - atheism?
Well, I'm sure rape is desirable to this who commit it, just because something seems desirable to someone doesn't mean it is. Unless you take the Kant view that we should all self determine our own morality by our own desires.
And I don't care if people use it as a comforter, it's when they want it in the public sphere, or when it gets in the way of science that I care. However, this thread isn't about that, it's was about why people think an all knowing and infinitely powerful being wants their praise.
SassyLady
10-21-2010, 06:07 AM
Well, I'm sure rape is desirable to this who commit it, just because something seems desirable to someone doesn't mean it is. Unless you take the Kant view that we should all self determine our own morality by our own desires.
And I don't care if people use it as a comforter, it's when they want it in the public sphere, or when it gets in the way of science that I care. However, this thread isn't about that, it's was about why people think an all knowing and infinitely powerful being wants their praise.
So, "All knowing and infinitely powerful" implies not aware?
So, "All knowing and infinitely powerful" implies not aware?
No, infact quite the opposite, such a being would be aware of *everything* (meaning you would not need to articulate your thoughts, as it already knows them before you think them) but more than that, it knows more praise that you could ever possibly give it, infinitely more.
SassyLady
10-21-2010, 06:22 AM
No, infact quite the opposite, such a being would be aware of *everything* (meaning you would not need to articulate your thoughts, as it already knows them before you think them) but more than that, it knows more praise that you could ever possibly give it, infinitely more.
So, why would this infiniely powerful person refuse to accept praise, knowing that it gives comfort to those giving it?
I know my daughter loves me ... and I know it at a cellular level. Does this mean that I don't listen when she tells me that she loves me? What would be the purpose of denying her the joy of telling me?
So, why would this infiniely powerful person refuse to accept praise, knowing that it gives comfort to those giving it?
I know my daughter loves me ... and I know it at a cellular level. Does this mean that I don't listen when she tells me that she loves me? What would be the purpose of denying her the joy of telling me?
Again to make a point this god is being reduced (or atleast compared) to the level of a human, which isn't very...godly
SassyLady
10-21-2010, 06:42 AM
Again to make a point this god is being reduced (or atleast compared) to the level of a human, which isn't very...godly
It is if one believes that we are all a part of God! I believe that each and every human being, every living thing in the universe is but an atom of what makes up God....which is why God can be aware of everything.
So, to make my point....God is not being reduced or compared....we are God, God is us. Even you.
It is if one believes that we are all a part of God! I believe that each and every human being, every living thing in the universe is but an atom of what makes up God....which is why God can be aware of everything.
So, to make my point....God is not being reduced or compared....we are God, God is us. Even you.
So, when you cut done a tree or murder a chicken you are killing a part of god? And by praising god we are praising ourselves?
SassyLady
10-21-2010, 07:45 AM
So, when you cut done a tree or murder a chicken you are killing a part of god? And by praising god we are praising ourselves?
yes
yes
Fairplay, Personally I find that a bit conceited to think of yourself as part of a god, and also brings up questions related to sin as it implies that god is sin aswell which many theists tend to have a problem with, what with there god being perfect.
SassyLady
10-21-2010, 01:47 PM
Fairplay, Personally I find that a bit conceited to think of yourself as part of a god, and also brings up questions related to sin as it implies that god is sin aswell which many theists tend to have a problem with, what with there god being perfect.
From someone who doesn't believe in God, how could you label it being conceited for those that do believe and feel that connection?
Well, if God is everything ... all that there is ... then sin is a part of God. Does this mean that God sins .... not saying that at all. Just that there isn't anything, material or immaterial, that exists that isn't a direct result of something created by God.
From someone who doesn't believe in God, how could you label it being conceited for those that do believe and feel that connection?
Well, if God is everything ... all that there is ... then sin is a part of God. Does this mean that God sins .... not saying that at all. Just that there isn't anything, material or immaterial, that exists that isn't a direct result of something created by God.
My thoughts on god dont make a difference to conceit. As soon as someone says they are part of a god, they imply they are more than human, thus I see a little conceit.
Ofcourse, sin is a part of god, if one exists. Many theists don't like that however, glad to see youre not among them.
As for god not committing sin, I'd say banishing countless humans to hell fire (as most, though not all chirtsian churches teach) is a sin, but then what do I know.
SassyLady
10-21-2010, 03:31 PM
My thoughts on god dont make a difference to conceit. As soon as someone says they are part of a god, they imply they are more than human, thus I see a little conceit.
Ofcourse, sin is a part of god, if one exists. Many theists don't like that however, glad to see youre not among them.
As for god not committing sin, I'd say banishing countless humans to hell fire (as most, though not all chirtsian churches teach) is a sin, but then what do I know.
See, I'm one of those crazy people who don't believe in heaven/hell. I'm not religious ... just have a deep seated feeling of connection with the Creator. As for the conceit....everything God created is a part of God, therefore, we are part of God. Not a hard concept.
See, I'm one of those crazy people who don't believe in heaven/hell. I'm not religious ... just have a deep seated feeling of connection with the Creator. As for the conceit....everything God created is a part of God, therefore, we are part of God. Not a hard concept.
Ah I see, a deist? That puts a different slant on things.
SassyLady
10-21-2010, 04:31 PM
Ah I see, a deist? That puts a different slant on things.
Well, I think when one puts a label on something it narrows their perspective to what has been defined by the word. I don't call myself a deist because I don't fit all the parameters of it. But, if you are more comfortable labeling people so you can narrow your thought process, go for it.
Well, I think when one puts a label on something it narrows their perspective to what has been defined by the word. I don't call myself a deist because I don't fit all the parameters of it. But, if you are more comfortable labeling people so you can narrow your thought process, go for it.
Labels are useful indicators :3
In what way would you say you differ from a deist? Would better lable be that of Gaia?
SassyLady
10-21-2010, 06:31 PM
Labels are useful indicators :3
In what way would you say you differ from a deist? Would better lable be that of Gaia?
I don't think there is a label created yet to explain my belief system. I don't try to explore what labels are out there and try to fit within them. I just "know" what my beliefs are.
bullypulpit
10-23-2010, 11:10 PM
The thread centres around the following quote...
It always struck me as a little odd that any sort of all powerful Being would want/need our praise. Your thoughts?
Humans create gods in their image.
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