U.S. apologizes to Guatemalans for 1940s STD experiment

[Agnapostate]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/10/01/1852482/us-apologizes-to-guatemalans-for.html


The Obama administration apologized Friday for a ``clearly unethical'' 1940s U.S. government experiment that infected Guatemalan prisoners with venereal disease in the name of public health research.

``Although these events occurred more than 64 years ago, we are outraged that such reprehensible research could have occurred under the guise of public health,'' Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in a joint statement issued with Kathleen Sebelius, secretary of health and human services.

``We deeply regret that it happened, and we apologize to all the individuals who were affected by such abhorrent research practices.''
About 1,500 Guatemalans were used in the experiments, according a U.S. Department of Health and Human Services statement that accompanied the apology.

[Continued at source...]

Fundamentally Mengelian.

[darin]

Fundamentally Noble to take responsibility for our actions. :) And - nobody..NO-BODY in this country is BETTER at apologizing than our dear President.

[Sweetchuck]

I'm waiting for the "hope and change" kool-aid drinkers to apologize for voting BO into office.

[Agnapostate]

Fundamentally Noble to take responsibility for our actions. :)

"Our" actions? Why the possessive pronoun? I wasn't aware that you were a government policy maker with influence on this program in 1946 to 1948. And that's the crux of the issue for me, and the reason why I believe this should have been a condemnation rather than an apology. The current government is not responsible for the orchestration of these actions. Perhaps reparations might be in order, but not claims of personal responsibility.

Elements within the Truman and Arevalo administrations are responsible for this program, not the Obama administration.

Elements within the Eisenhower administration and the command staff of the CIA are responsible for the removal of the democratically elected Arbenz government from Guatemala in 1954.

Then there was the matter of the military dictator Efrain Rios Montt, who was responsible for genocidal policies adopted against Mayan Indians in the 1980's.

http://www.britishblogs.co.uk/images/114544.jpg

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20061229elpepuint_1/XLCO/Ies/indigena_pasa_frente_pintada_reclama_castigo_ex_pr esidente_Rios_Montt.jpg

Obama was not president in the 80's, and is also not morally responsible for that. The person who might have responsibility for that was, well...

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_vfdixQJrHCo/SnalLLsjPUI/AAAAAAAABcw/DJvP1KP03AU/reagan-montt.jpg

Obama can apologize for his support of authoritarian and draconian policies against Guatemalan migrant laborers if he wants to. :dunno:

[Trigg]

The Guatemalan gov. allowed this to happen if reparations are due it should come from them.

[darin]

^^^ But-but-but then America isn't the sole bad guy on the planet! :cheers2:

[Agnapostate]

The Guatemalan gov. allowed this to happen if reparations are due it should come from them.

Do you not know how to read? The Guatemalan government of the day is dead. Reparations should be alloted to individuals based on their present-day circumstances by both current governments, the bulk of it from the Obama government.


^^^ But-but-but then America isn't the sole bad guy on the planet! :cheers2:

Actually, "America" isn't anything except a pair of continents. Certainly not a living, breathing entity capable of making conscious decisions! Elements within the Truman government were responsible for the orchestration of this. When those individuals claim those actions as those of "America," they trick simpleminded rubes like you into automatically defending them.

[Trigg]

Do you not know how to read? The Guatemalan government of the day is dead. Reparations should be alloted to individuals based on their present-day circumstances by both current governments, the bulk of it from the Obama government.


No, the Guatemalan gov. allowed this to happen. If reparations are to be given it should come from them.

Why do you think the US should pay the bulk of reparations, for something sanctioned by another gov. on their own citizens?

[darin]

Do you not know how to read? The Guatemalan government of the day is dead. Reparations should be alloted to individuals based on their present-day circumstances by both current governments, the bulk of it from the Obama government.



Actually, "America" isn't anything except a pair of continents. Certainly not a living, breathing entity capable of making conscious decisions! Elements within the Truman government were responsible for the orchestration of this. When those individuals claim those actions as those of "America," they trick simpleminded rubes like you into automatically defending them.


You are really sitting here bitching about what Truman's Administration did. I think, personally, you are at least partially sick in the head.

[Pagan]

Do you not know how to read? The Guatemalan government of the day is dead. Reparations should be alloted to individuals based on their present-day circumstances by both current governments, the bulk of it from the Obama government.



Actually, "America" isn't anything except a pair of continents. Certainly not a living, breathing entity capable of making conscious decisions! Elements within the Truman government were responsible for the orchestration of this. When those individuals claim those actions as those of "America," they trick simpleminded rubes like you into automatically defending them.

So when are the Native Americans going to pay reparations for what they did to other tribes?

Get a fucking clue dipshit, there isn't a single civilization, society, people, individual, group, etc. that hasn't done a shitty on others.

[Agnapostate]

No, the Guatemalan gov. allowed this to happen. If reparations are to be given it should come from them.

Nope! Reparations from all those responsible, or the inheritors of the material gains of those responsible, since so much time has passed.


Why do you think the US should pay the bulk of reparations, for something sanctioned by another gov. on their own citizens?

The petty jingoism of this forum blinds so many. What is this nonsense about "their own citizens" or "their own people"? What does it matter if another person chances to be born between the same invisible lines in the dirt? That doesn't create any special kinship or legitimate association, and there may be conditioning factors that people go through as they grow up that in fact create only an association of opposition. That is the situation between the Mayan peasantry and the white-dominated Guatemalan government.


You are really sitting here bitching about what Truman's Administration did. I think, personally, you are at least partially sick in the head.

This post is a very good example of the utter imbecility and braindead nature of the majority of the posters on this forum. You're just too fucking retarded to actually provide a counterargument, so you vomit this idiocy. But who's interested in your stupid shit? You're too stupid to comment on the topic, so why don't you go elsewhere?


So when are the Native Americans going to pay reparations for what they did to other tribes?

When it can be demonstrated that there are concrete material consequences of distributive injustice caused along the lines of a Native American tribe gaining wealth at the expense of another. That might be applicable in the case of the Navajo-Hopi land dispute, for example.


Get a fucking clue dipshit, there isn't a single civilization, society, people, individual, group, etc. that hasn't done a shitty on others.

Chafin', you are so motherfucking stupid that I swear your mother must have taken a pickax to the back of your head, along with you being given snacks of PCP mixed with crack cocaine rocks in daycare. There's an obvious fucking difference between historical circumstances that have no current effect and those that do. Now, please bite on some cyanide.

[revelarts]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/10/0...alans-for.html


The Obama administration apologized Friday for a ``clearly unethical'' 1940s U.S. government experiment that infected Guatemalan prisoners with venereal disease in the name of public health research.

``Although these events occurred more than 64 years ago, we are outraged that such reprehensible research could have occurred under the guise of public health,'' Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in a joint statement issued with Kathleen Sebelius, secretary of health and human services.

``We deeply regret that it happened, and we apologize to all the individuals who were affected by such abhorrent research practices.''
About 1,500 Guatemalans were used in the experiments, according a U.S. Department of Health and Human Services statement that accompanied the apology.

[Continued at source...]
Fundamentally Mengelian.

Here's the thing IMO,

the U.S. Gov't had oversight of the Crap. so there's responsibility here. no doubt. If the dr.s were still alive they should be and should have been thrown under the jail. (there are plenty like them TODAY that need to be in jail for prison experiments in the 60's and on native Americans ).
An apology is the least, the U.S. can do. Reparations is a sticky problem but if the Guatemalans affected got themselves an injury law firm on the job they might get some traction. And they deserve it. The U.S. gov't has done some crappy stuff no need to paint the U.S. with a brush that's all Dark and evil or all Light and goodness. Guess what, like people, no country is perfect. This is a case where the history shows the U.S.'s back end crapping on people. There are other times when the U.S. has done some good.

I think if people lived the expression "keep it real" over stuff like this it would end a lot of the bickering and posturing.
then agian .. maybe not.

[SassyLady]

Don't you just love how this furthers the debate...


Nope! Reparations from all those responsible, or the inheritors of the material gains of those responsible, since so much time has passed.



The petty jingoism of this forum blinds so many. What is this nonsense about "their own citizens" or "their own people"? What does it matter if another person chances to be born between the same invisible lines in the dirt? That doesn't create any special kinship or legitimate association, and there may be conditioning factors that people go through as they grow up that in fact create only an association of opposition. That is the situation between the Mayan peasantry and the white-dominated Guatemalan government.



This post is a very good example of the utter imbecility and braindead nature of the majority of the posters on this forum. You're just too fucking retarded to actually provide a counterargument, so you vomit this idiocy. But who's interested in your stupid shit? You're too stupid to comment on the topic, so why don't you go elsewhere?



When it can be demonstrated that there are concrete material consequences of distributive injustice caused along the lines of a Native American tribe gaining wealth at the expense of another. That might be applicable in the case of the Navajo-Hopi land dispute, for example.



Chafin', you are so motherfucking stupid that I swear your mother must have taken a pickax to the back of your head, along with you being given snacks of PCP mixed with crack cocaine rocks in daycare. There's an obvious fucking difference between historical circumstances that have no current effect and those that do. Now, please bite on some cyanide.

You've used this argument (highlighted red) repeatedly and it's getting you nowhere Aggie. Perhaps you should take your brand of debate to another board where they can appreciate your wit.

[Agnapostate]

Here's the thing IMO,

the U.S. Gov't had oversight of the Crap. so there's responsibility here. no doubt. If the dr.s were still alive they should be and should have been thrown under the jail. (there are plenty like them TODAY that need to be in jail for prison experiments in the 60's and on native Americans ).
An apology is the least, the U.S. can do. Reparations is a sticky problem but if the Guatemalans affected got themselves an injury law firm on the job they might get some traction. And they deserve it. The U.S. gov't has done some crappy stuff no need to paint the U.S. with a brush that's all Dark and evil or all Light and goodness. Guess what, like people, no country is perfect. This is a case where the history shows the U.S.'s back end crapping on people. There are other times when the U.S. has done some good.

I think if people lived the expression "keep it real" over stuff like this it would end a lot of the bickering and posturing.
then agian .. maybe not.

As explained, "the U.S." is not a person, and "the government" is also not a person. It is therefore not a matter of personal complicity on the part of the current rulers, so the apology sends an incorrect collectivist message. There should have been condemnation of the individuals involved.

[Agnapostate]

Don't you just love how this furthers the debate...

You've used this argument (highlighted red) repeatedly and it's getting you nowhere Aggie. Perhaps you should take your brand of debate to another board where they can appreciate your wit.

Oh, if it isn't Ms. Tunnel Vision, here to share the splendors of her accumulated experience in Napa Valley with us! So enlighten me, skurty, how exactly did you miss "Get a fucking clue dipshit," and "I think, personally, you are at least partially sick in the head," which were instigations, but magically happened only to notice my reciprocal comments? Selective memory? :dunno: :lol:

[SassyLady]

Oh, if it isn't Ms. Tunnel Vision, here to share the splendors of her accumulated experience in Napa Valley with us! So enlighten me, skurty, how exactly did you miss "Get a fucking clue dipshit," and "I think, personally, you are at least partially sick in the head," which were instigations, but magically happened only to notice my reciprocal comments? Selective memory? :dunno: :lol:

Oh, right, I forgot ... the old "he started it" routine is the argument used by children.

[Agnapostate]

Oh, right, I forgot ... the old "he started it" routine is the argument used by children.

So now you're making another "childish" statement. That seems so...personal in nature. I'm sure that couldn't be a personal attack. You're such a bloated package of irony and inconsistency that I tend to smile every time I see your name on a post these days, sunshine. :coffee:

[SassyLady]

So now you're making another "childish" statement. That seems so...personal in nature. I'm sure that couldn't be a personal attack. You're such a bloated package of irony and inconsistency that I tend to smile every time I see your name on a post these days, sunshine. :coffee:

Hey, while you are over here making snide remarks about everyone what's happening over at ASFAR? Did you bore everyone and they all decided to quit?

[Agnapostate]

Hey, while you are over here making snide remarks about everyone what's happening over at ASFAR? Did you bore everyone and they all decided to quit?

The same thing that's been happening for fourteen years is happening; we remain committed to being a think tank for our small and marginal movement, as opposed to the activist organization that NYRA is. For you to imply that a consciously chosen organizational structure is somehow a fault of mine just reveals that you don't know anything about what you're talking about. :dunno:

[SassyLady]

The same thing that's been happening for fourteen years is happening; we remain committed to being a think tank for our small and marginal movement, as opposed to the activist organization that NYRA is. For you to imply that a consciously chosen organizational structure is somehow a fault of mine just reveals that you don't know anything about what you're talking about. :dunno:

Sure...........:thumb:

[Agnapostate]

Sure...........:thumb:

Yep! Glad to have you on board! :salute: :lol:

[revelarts]

As explained, "the U.S." is not a person, and "the government" is also not a person. It is therefore not a matter of personal complicity on the part of the current rulers, so the apology sends an incorrect collectivist message. There should have been condemnation of the individuals involved.
sigh... Like I said Maybe not...

Agnapostate, why are you making a debate over my comments when there really isn't one?

in response I'll say this.
If you fall into the U.S. is a corporation camp then the U.S. IS a person.
But regardless, the U.S. gov't does represents and supposedly works for a collection of people in a geographic area. We're kind of born into or volunteer to join this contract of laws and such. (you've probably heard about it, I don't need to explain this to you.) But as a collective, the group has some representational responsibility even if ignorant of the activity. Even when the acts are illegal. Of course those who knew of , participated in and knowingly sponsored the deeds are directly responsible and fully culpable. So as I said before, they should be thrown under the jail.