How Big is the Muslim Threat?

[Hobbit]

Given statistics and polls gathered in Muslim countries, somewhere in the ball park of 250 million Muslims condone violence against civilians, even if those civilian deaths include other Muslims. More at the link

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/05/a_rising_tide_of_fury.html

[gabosaurus]

Thanks for that bit of right-wing hate thought. I fear people like you more than any Muslim extremist.

[Gaffer]

Thanks for that bit of right-wing hate thought. I fear people like you more than any Muslim extremist.

You didn't even read the article.

You keep fearing hobbit, don't worry about the muslim that wants to murder your dumb ass.

[gabosaurus]

Unless Shrub sends me to Iraq, I won't get attacked by one either.
I am more worried about domestic terrorism, from right-wing hate squads.

[Hobbit]

Unless Shrub sends me to Iraq, I won't get attacked by one either.
I am more worried about domestic terrorism, from right-wing hate squads.

What the hell are you even talking about?

[Hagbard Celine]

Thanks for that bit of right-wing hate thought. I fear people like you more than any Muslim extremist.

It's true dude.

[Nuc]

The Muslims are a huge threat because they are breeding out of control. Which will keep them in poverty. Which will fuel their anger and cause more extremism. Which will further isolate them from the rest of the world. And on and on.

I'm probably considered a liberal by most people but let me say this-any liberal who doesn't think Islam and Muslims are the biggest threat to human rights, feminism, pacifism and any other liberal "ism" you can name is a moron. :fu:

[Gaffer]

Unless Shrub sends me to Iraq, I won't get attacked by one either.
I am more worried about domestic terrorism, from right-wing hate squads.

You won't have to go to iraq, they are working real hard to come to you. with plenty of liberal help. And for your information there are no rightwing hate squads.

[Nuc]

You won't have to go to iraq, they are working real hard to come to you. with plenty of liberal help. And for your information there are no rightwing hate squads.

First sentence, correct.

Second, not so sure about that!

[Fountainhead]

Unless Shrub sends me to Iraq, I won't get attacked by one either.
I am more worried about domestic terrorism, from right-wing hate squads.

Right wing hate squads ?

Dude, how did you find us ? We have been sooooo careful, to conceal our true identity. Do you have a pair of those special sunglasses that reveals us as skeleton-faced aliens ?

If I were you, I would roll-out another sheet of reynolds wrap for your h:laugh2: at.

[5stringJeff]

I am more worried about domestic terrorism, from right-wing hate squads.

Clueless much?!? :lol:

[Hobbit]

Right wing hate squads ?

Dude, how did you find us ? We have been sooooo careful, to conceal our true identity. Do you have a pair of those special sunglasses that reveals us as skeleton-faced aliens ?

If I were you, I would roll-out another sheet of reynolds wrap for your h:laugh2: at.

That is one of the most obscure movie references I have seen on any board other than Rifftrax. "They Live!" with Rowdy Roddy Piper, right?

[gabosaurus]

The Muslims don't want your land. They want THEIR land.
Remember, it was not a Muslim armada that invaded Iraq. They only came in after Bush opened the floodgates.

[Yurt]

The Muslims don't want your land. They want THEIR land.
Remember, it was not a Muslim armada that invaded Iraq. They only came in after Bush opened the floodgates.

Prove hate squads.

Their land? They all wanted Saddam gone, well except a few sunnis. You don't jack. Go to a muslim forum and ask any muslim if they want saddam back.

Do it.

[Nienna]

Thanks for that bit of right-wing hate thought. I fear people like you more than any Muslim extremist.

This isn't very wise.

[Nienna]

The Muslims don't want your land. They want THEIR land.
Remember, it was not a Muslim armada that invaded Iraq. They only came in after Bush opened the floodgates.

Muslims want their land... true. It's just that they want ALL land to be "their" land. And they want all infidels dead. It's why they have been bombing us for decades-- on OUR land. WAY before Bush became president.

[Nuc]

Muslims want their land... true. It's just that they want ALL land to be "their" land. And they want all infidels dead. It's why they have been bombing us for decades-- on OUR land. WAY before Bush became president.

Hey that gives me an idea for a song!

"This land is your land, this land is my land,"

"From California to the New York Island"

"From Palestine to the Golan Highlands"

"This land was made for you and me, but mostly me!"

Apologies to Woody Guthrie.

[diuretic]

Hah, we've got it sorted. No Muslim threat here maties, we're going to have our own form of fair dinkum Aussie Islam....

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/islam-and-its-catholic-connection/2007/05/03/1177788308034.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

...that's how it's done.

Your problem in the US is your attempted theocracy. Benny Hinn, the Farting Preacher and all the other Evangelical con men don't want any competition.

[Nienna]

Hah, we've got it sorted. No Muslim threat here maties, we're going to have our own form of fair dinkum Aussie Islam....

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/islam-and-its-catholic-connection/2007/05/03/1177788308034.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

...that's how it's done.

Your problem in the US is your attempted theocracy. Benny Hinn, the Farting Preacher and all the other Evangelical con men don't want any competition.

Did the Catholics BOMB "the rest of you"? Did the Catholics REQUIRE all women to wear habits at the threat of beatings or death? Do the Jews believe that all non-Jews deserve to DIE?

Islam is being "hammered" BECAUSE of its actions; the actions are not the RESULT of political hammering. Islam does not WANT to become Australian; it wants ALL countries to conform to ITS rules & beliefs.

That article is a BIT off-base.

[diuretic]

Did the Catholics BOMB "the rest of you"? Did the Catholics REQUIRE all women to wear habits at the threat of beatings or death? Do the Jews believe that all non-Jews deserve to DIE?

Islam is being "hammered" BECAUSE of its actions; the actions are not the RESULT of political hammering. Islam does not WANT to become Australian; it wants ALL countries to conform to ITS rules & beliefs.

That article is a BIT off-base.

The point is that we will accept it and it will become part of our national culture, it will become just one of the many religions we accommodate. Once it becomes part and parcel of our society - and it has now really, we've had Muslims in this country for 150 years, no big deal. You see it's a religion, not a political idea, we have already and we will continue to accept it as a religion. But then we're not infused with the sort of evangelical Christianity that afflicts the US. You really have made this a problem for yourselves. You are so bound up with Christianity that you can't accommodate citizens or would-be citizens with an Islamic background. Christianity permeates your politics, it doesn't in ours. It's called tolerance. You should try it some time.

[Nukeman]

The point is that we will accept it and it will become part of our national culture, it will become just one of the many religions we accommodate. Once it becomes part and parcel of our society - and it has now really, we've had Muslims in this country for 150 years, no big deal. You see it's a religion, not a political idea, we have already and we will continue to accept it as a religion. But then we're not infused with the sort of evangelical Christianity that afflicts the US. You really have made this a problem for yourselves. You are so bound up with Christianity that you can't accommodate citizens or would-be citizens with an Islamic background. Christianity permeates your politics, it doesn't in ours. It's called tolerance. You should try it some time.
You sanctimonious prick. You have the nerve to say we as in the US are intolerant of Islam yet they are allowed to come here and set up mosque after mosque and thier own schools. we are happy to let them live in PEACE if they are willing to do the same.

I will give you an article about the tolerance of Australia and the Islamic community. here is is

This took a whole 3 seconds to find. I found pages more so stop with the stone throwing....


WSWS : News & Analysis : Australia & South Pacific

Escalating attacks on Muslims and Arabs in Australia
By Richard Phillips
20 September 2001
Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author

Verbal abuse and physical attacks against Arab immigrants and Muslim residents in Australia began soon after the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington on September 11. During the past week, petrol bombs have been thrown at mosques and schools, while pre-schools and immigrant community buildings have been vandalised or deluged with hate mail and death-threat phone calls.

Arab community leaders report that the number of racist attacks has reached an unprecedented level. They have warned Muslim women to stay indoors or travel in groups after a molotov cocktail was thrown at one person in the West Australian city of Perth. Scores of Muslim women have been spat on or had their veils pulled off.

Telephone hotlines and support groups were established in NSW and Victoria after Arabic community organisations were swamped with phone calls reporting racist incidents. The NSW Community Relations Commission (CRC) has said that its 24-hour Arabic hotlines are receiving hundreds of calls every day and that the service, which had planned to operate for a week, will continue indefinitely. The CRC has also established a Punjabi phone service to cope with increasing incidents of physical attacks and verbal abuse of Sikh residents.

Perhaps the most cowardly attack took place on Thursday in the Brisbane suburb of Karawatha in the state of Queensland, where racist elements stoned a bus carrying primary school children with rocks and bottles. While no one was injured in the attack, the children, aged between five- and 10-years-old, were seriously traumatised and one side of the bus was badly damaged. The primary school, attended by 250 Muslim children, has been placed under 24-hour security.

The following day, two molotov cocktails were thrown at a mosque in Holland Park in Brisbane in the early hours of the morning. Police are also investigating an attempted petrol bombing of an Islamic centre on Queensland’s Gold Coast. A fence outside the centre was spray-painted with the words: “You will die... Blood will be shed. We will kill all Arabs.”

Last Friday over 900 people were evacuated from the Auburn Gallipoli mosque in Sydney after bomb threats were made during a religious service. Bomb threats were also made against the nearby Lakemba mosque and the Islamic College of South Australia in Adelaide, which was forced to close. Break-ins were attempted at a Perth mosque and prayer meetings interrupted several times on the weekend in Darwin, in the Northern Territory, by car passengers shouting racist abuse and death threats.

Ali Roude, chairman of the Islamic Council of NSW, said that his organisation was deeply concerned over the escalating attacks and that a climate of fear, far worse than during the Gulf War, now permeated Arab and Muslim communities.

“We are under siege,” he told the World Socialist Web Site. “Muslim women are afraid to leave home because of harassment, while shopkeepers, small business people, workers, and of course children, are all being affected.

“We’ve been subjected to escalating racial abuse over the last six weeks, encouraged by talkback radio announcers intent on stirring up the worst kind of hatred. They are praying on people’s emotions and winding them up to vilify Muslims or anyone from the Middle East. They have attempted to blame our community for gang rape in Bankstown, the Tampa refugee crisis and now the situation in the US. We regard the terrorist attack in the US as an act of criminality and have made this clear on every occasion. So why is this crime being attributed to us?” Roude asked.

Chadia Gedeon, a coordinator with the Lebanese Community Council in Bankstown in Sydney, told the WSWS the council had been inundated with accounts of harassment. These calls, she explained, began to increase in late August, after a front-page story in the Murdoch-owned Daily Telegraph, Australia’s largest circulation tabloid. The newspaper claimed that gangs of Lebanese youth were involved in a wave of sexual assaults throughout Sydney’s southwestern suburbs. She said that multiple copies of the newspaper were delivered to schools in these areas.

“Now we are being blamed for events in the US and are at the receiving end of all sorts of foul language and threats. This includes women and children. Taxi drivers, especially those who display Islamic emblems in their cars or play Arabic music, have also been targeted. I know drivers who have had beer thrown in their faces and sworn at. We are all being put in the same basket and blamed for everything.” Gedeon said that Lebanese Community Council employees were forced to evacuate their office three times last week after several serious death threats.

Despite universal condemnation of the terrorist attack in the US and appeals for tolerance by Arab community leaders, senior figures in the Howard government are whipping up racialism, claiming that refugees and asylum seekers could have links with terrorists. Defence Minister Peter Reith made a number of press comments last week reiterating remarks by US Deputy Secretary of State, James Kelly, that Indonesia could be a launching pad for terrorist activity and that Australia should boost protection of its borders.

Attorney General Daryl Williams, the Minister responsible for domestic intelligence, has called for increased surveillance of immigrants while Queensland Liberal MP Peter Slipper claimed there was “an undeniable linkage between illegals and terrorists”. When asked what evidence he had to substantiate this allegation, all that Slipper could offer was that “many refugees came from Afghanistan.”

The tabloid press and talkback radio have maintained a steady stream of inflammatory comment. Hours after passenger jets slammed into the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, talkback radio falsely reported that public celebrations were being held in the Sydney suburb of Lakemba. Alan Jones, a key supporter of Australian Prime Minister John Howard and 2UE talkback announcer, told his listeners that the terrorist attacks were “an act of religious war” and that “sleepers” or foreign terrorists were “infiltrating our communities and waiting, sometimes for years, to act on instructions.”

Jones singled out Afghan refugees in particular and then declared that Islam was responsible for a recent gang rape in Sydney. “Are the Muslim rapes of Australian women in the Bankstown area the first signs of an Islamic hatred towards the community that welcomed them here years ago? Have we now, because of multiculturalism, created an Islamic community in Australia that’s more aligned with Islam than it is with Australia?”

On September 13, Piers Akerman, a senior journalist with the Daily Telegraph, called for heightened surveillance of all under-developed countries and Muslims in Australia. “The spotlight must now be turned on the Third World which is responsible today for the delivery of international terrorism. ... How... do Muslim residents in Australia differ in their views from those of the Taliban or others capable of ordering these atrocities? If we have to sacrifice some elements of our privacy in the interests of enhanced security, then so be it.”

Five days later in an article headlined “Opening our doors to a wave of hatred,” he described the terror attack on the US as a “wakeup call to Australia to reexamine its policy of multiculturalism”. Without any evidence whatsoever Akerman claimed Islam was a “separatist clique” operating in Australia and that non-Islamic residents were being “spat upon and cursed [by Muslims] for wearing ordinary clothing”.

While Prime Minister John Howard and some state leaders have issued statements condemning the attacks on mosques and Arab communities, their comments are thoroughly disingenuous. As Arab community leaders have emphasised— especially in Sydney, which is home to almost 200,000 Muslims—the death threats and physical attacks did not begin last week but are part of an escalating pattern of racist bigotry encouraged by government leaders.

Sari Kassis, NSW convenor of the Palestine Human Rights Campaign, bluntly dismissed a public statement by NSW Labor premier Bob Carr late last week condemning racist attacks on Arabs. Carr is infamous amongst immigrant communities for his ongoing efforts to establish racial profiling of crime suspects and for a battery of laws, passed by his government, increasing the power of state police to harass immigrant youth.

“The person we must now look to, to end this cycle of racial vilification, is the same person who started it,” Kassis said. “Can Mr Carr tell any of us when the constant accusations and superstitions toward an entire community will end? We’ve borne the brunt of the Gulf War, gang rapes, ethnic crime, refugees, now terrorism.”

[diuretic]

You sanctimonious prick. You have the nerve to say we as in the US are intolerant of Islam yet they are allowed to come here and set up mosque after mosque and thier own schools. we are happy to let them live in PEACE if they are willing to do the same.

I will give you an article about the tolerance of Australia and the Islamic community. here is is

This took a whole 3 seconds to find. I found pages more so stop with the stone throwing....


Sanctimonious? No, I leave that to you Bible-bashing twats. You are so encrusted with your version of Christianity which has seeped through every part of your society that you only realise you live in a Christian theocracy when another religion comes along to expose your hypocrisy.

You know nothing about Islam in Australia. Pop quiz. The oldest mosque in Australia is in................

Go and look it up.

Meanwhile have fun with the Farting Preacher, keep the money rolling in :laugh2:

[Nukeman]

Sanctimonious? No, I leave that to you Bible-bashing twats. You are so encrusted with your version of Christianity which has seeped through every part of your society that you only realise you live in a Christian theocracy when another religion comes along to expose your hypocrisy.

You know nothing about Islam in Australia. Pop quiz. The oldest mosque in Australia is in................

Go and look it up.

Meanwhile have fun with the Farting Preacher, keep the money rolling in :laugh2:I could give a rats ass about the oldest mosque in Australia.

As for the hypocrisy of the christian faith take a long hard look at the Islamic faith will yaa....

Why dont you look up intoerance of Islam in Australia have fun with that skippy. It's a shit load of pages .........:fu:

[Nukeman]

Sanctimonious? No, I leave that to you Bible-bashing twats. You are so encrusted with your version of Christianity which has seeped through every part of your society that you only realise you live in a Christian theocracy when another religion comes along to expose your hypocrisy.

You know nothing about Islam in Australia. Pop quiz. The oldest mosque in Australia is in................

Go and look it up.

Meanwhile have fun with the Farting Preacher, keep the money rolling in :laugh2:Know where the oldest Catholic, Protestant, Babtist, Lutheran, Methodist, churches are in the US.....

Look it up........:salute:

[diuretic]

I could give a rats ass about the oldest mosque in Australia.

Why dont you look up intoerance of Islam in Australia have fun with that skippy. It's a shit load of pages .........:fu:

Nah forget it, I can read bigotry anywhere. There's a lot of it around. Have fun with your Flatulent Preacher. Keep sending money for God's sake!!! He needs the money. God wants him to be rich!! :laugh2:

[diuretic]

Know where the oldest Catholic, Protestant, Babtist, Lutheran, Methodist, churches are in the US.....

Look it up........:salute:

No.

But the Farting Preacher! Where is he now? Oklahoma??

[Nukeman]

No.

But the Farting Preacher! Where is he now? Oklahoma??You know if I knew what in the hell you were talking about it might even be alittle funny but since I have no idea its just worthless BS.....

Dont like reading bigotry about your own country huh!!! go figure. You sure as hell like to point out the bigotry in our country but just dont want to admit that it occurs as readlily in your own. Keep going through life with blinders on there sparky.. I'm sure your little eden will always remain that way....

[diuretic]

You know if I knew what in the hell you were talking about it might even be alittle funny but since I have no idea its just worthless BS.....

Don't look, it will only frighten you.




Dont like reading bigotry about your own country huh!!! go figure. You sure as hell like to point out the bigotry in our country but just dont want to admit that it occurs as readlily in your own. Keep going through life with blinders on there sparky.. I'm sure your little eden will always remain that way....

Hell no, my country was founded on bigotry. But we know it. And we're moving forward. Luckily enough for us we don't have the sort of nutters that infest your society, the crazy Evangelicals that make the US a laughing stock around the world. Look either be a Christian theocracy or be a really interesting liberal democracy, but this continual shifting between Bible-bashing and libertinism is really hard to follow. Especially when said Bible-bashers are doing the libertine thing as well! Hah! Heaps of fun! :laugh2:

[Nukeman]

Don't look, it will only frighten you.



Hell no, my country was founded on bigotry. But we know it. And we're moving forward. Luckily enough for us we don't have the sort of nutters that infest your society, the crazy Evangelicals that make the US a laughing stock around the world. Look either be a Christian theocracy or be a really interesting liberal democracy, but this continual shifting between Bible-bashing and libertinism is really hard to follow. Especially when said Bible-bashers are doing the libertine thing as well! Hah! Heaps of fun! :laugh2:
I have read a great deal of your post and I thought at one time you were actually thinking through what you post and had some inteligence but when you get your information on Christian values and Evangelical preachers form the likes of Youtube and ebaumsworld well I have to say that is pathetic. Why dont you spend some time to really get to know how people think in the US without first attacking them and putting them down at every turn, yet at the same time you refuse to acknowledge your own short comings.

[darin]

Don't look, it will only frighten you.



Hell no, my country was founded on bigotry. But we know it. And we're moving forward. Luckily enough for us we don't have the sort of nutters that infest your society, the crazy Evangelicals that make the US a laughing stock around the world. Look either be a Christian theocracy or be a really interesting liberal democracy, but this continual shifting between Bible-bashing and libertinism is really hard to follow. Especially when said Bible-bashers are doing the libertine thing as well! Hah! Heaps of fun! :laugh2:

Funny - the ONLY bigotry/slander perpetrated in this thread comes from YOU against Christians. (shrug).

Maybe it takes a bigot to know a bigot? I'm bigoted against religions which have a SIZABLE faction who wants NOTHING more than to see me DEAD. No other main-stream faith is so full of hate - besides Liberalism.

[Nukeman]

Funny - the ONLY bigotry/slander perpetrated in this thread comes from YOU against Christians. (shrug).

Maybe it takes a bigot to know a bigot? I'm bigoted against religions which have a SIZABLE faction who wants NOTHING more than to see me DEAD. No other main-stream faith is so full of hate - besides Liberalism.

"you must spread some reputation around befor giving it to DMP again"

Sorry dude I tried......:clap: :clap: :clap:

[diuretic]

I have read a great deal of your post and I thought at one time you were actually thinking through what you post and had some inteligence but when you get your information on Christian values and Evangelical preachers form the likes of Youtube and ebaumsworld well I have to say that is pathetic. Why dont you spend some time to really get to know how people think in the US without first attacking them and putting them down at every turn, yet at the same time you refuse to acknowledge your own short comings.

I use YouTube to see the Dr Who videos and my favourite Brit pop band (Prefab Sprout), I don't bother with ebaumsworld. The Farting Preacher is a crook. No problem. Jail is where he belongs, he is a criminal.

I always think through what I post and I can always defend it. Robert Schuller. I like him. I enjoy watching him. I think his son is taking over now. I visited the Crystal Cathedral. I thought I would be seeing a hokey money spinner but I was impressed with Schuller's sincerity. I think he is a good man.

Benny Hinn? Arsehole fraud.

Now, back to my point. If you, the US, refuse to allow Islam to take on an American flavour, to allow Islam to mould itself to American values, then you are simply creating a problem for yourselves.

[diuretic]

Funny - the ONLY bigotry/slander perpetrated in this thread comes from YOU against Christians. (shrug).

Maybe it takes a bigot to know a bigot? I'm bigoted against religions which have a SIZABLE faction who wants NOTHING more than to see me DEAD. No other main-stream faith is so full of hate - besides Liberalism.

More than happy to discuss this. Please set it up and I will be there.

[Nukeman]

.

Now, back to my point. If you, the US, refuse to allow Islam to take on an American flavour, to allow Islam to mould itself to American values, then you are simply creating a problem for yourselves.
Here is where I and most totaly agree with you, the problem is, is that they (Islamist) dont want to assimilate or mold themselves into the American coulture. What they want is to have their own Sharia law, schools, communities and have no outside influence. That is the problem as most see it here in the US.

IF the Islamist would be willing to come forward and say we want to be part of American coulture how can we do this they would be greeted with open arms however what they do is shun everything western ant talk about the great satin and how depraved and vile it is and the only thing to be done about it is to distroy it.

This is where I and a lot of others have our issues with Islam. I ahve stated in the past the Islam is a religion of peace untill it is in power than it become a religion of oppresion. Just look at most of the Islamic countries thier women aren't even second class citizens I find it Ironic that a religion that says it places such a high standard on it's women that they have to cover them up to keep another form having impure thoughts about them (wouldn't that be the other mans fault), not to mention the fact that if a woman is raped it is some how her fault and the family should kill her for the dishonor she has brought upon her family. Its take 5 women to countermand the statement of 1 man. If that isn't the deffinition of sexism I dont know what is..

Islam is such a hypocriticle religion they have so many double stadards in place that they say is for protecting women when all it really is doing is degrading and oppresing them. The men in Islam have all the power a 5 year old boy has more authority than a 30 year old woman. That is pathetic..

IF Islam truely wants to coexist in the west they need to come out of the freaking dark ages and start living in the 21st century and not in the 7th.

[diuretic]

That was my point about an Aussie Islam. When the practice bumps up against our secular law then sorry, Islam loses. But really I can't see a big problem.

[Gaffer]

The point is that we will accept it and it will become part of our national culture, it will become just one of the many religions we accommodate. Once it becomes part and parcel of our society - and it has now really, we've had Muslims in this country for 150 years, no big deal. You see it's a religion, not a political idea, we have already and we will continue to accept it as a religion. But then we're not infused with the sort of evangelical Christianity that afflicts the US. You really have made this a problem for yourselves. You are so bound up with Christianity that you can't accommodate citizens or would-be citizens with an Islamic background. Christianity permeates your politics, it doesn't in ours. It's called tolerance. You should try it some time.

You have the same misconception that so many do. islam is not a religion its a theocracy with the goal of world domination.

You accept them in and they continue to grow in numbers. They don't assimilate. They live apart and under different laws and rules.

islam means "submit". Non-believers are to convert or be killed. There is no tolerance.

[Nukeman]

That was my point about an Aussie Islam. When the practice bumps up against our secular law then sorry, Islam loses. But really I can't see a big problem.See here is where your a little confused on the US. For the most part the conservatives in the US are more than happy to let everyone enjoy their lives as long as there is a certain degree of assimilation and resepct for others beliefs. Unfortunately the Liberals in this country say we have to have multiculturalism and everyone is allowed to practice as they see fit.

In other words it is not the evangelicle per se or the conservative that will ultimately cause the biggest problems with Islam but the Liberals who will not take a stand to stop the hatered. If a Christian stands up and says they dont agree with hurting others in the name of religion like Islam, the Christian is called a hate monger and rascist yet the Islamist can call for the killing of all infidels and thats a freedom of religion. We should accept that they are just different. I could go on and on about the discrepencies that are present in the current US politicle and religous debates but I think you get my point..

You cant expect Christians to be accepting of Islam and yet not expect Islam to be accepting of Christianity. This is exactly what is happening here in the US and around the world. double standards have always pissed me off and will continue to do so untill the day I die. Don't cram accept me down my throat but than tell me I should die because I dont follow your religion and you dont have to accept me or my beliefs....

[Nukeman]

Here is an article about one of my biggest issues with Islam. the following just occured in Iraq. The most disturbing thing is that people were involved who knew nothing about it or that security (Iraqi) personel were standing by and did nothing to stop it...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=452288&in_page_id=1811

[
I]The moment a teenage girl was stoned to death for loving the wrong boy
Last updated at 18:28pm on 3rd May 2007

Comments (3)

A 17-year-old girl has been stoned to death in Iraq because she loved a teenage boy of the wrong religion.

As a horrifying video of the stoning went out on the Internet, the British arm of Amnesty International condemned the death of Du’a Khalil Aswad as "an abhorrent murder" and demanded that her killers be brought to justice.

Reports from Iraq said a local security force witnessed the incident, but did nothing to try to stop it. Now her boyfriend is in hiding in fear for his life.

Miss Aswad, a member of a minority Kurdish religious group called Yezidi, was condemned to death as an "honour killing" by other men in her family and hardline religious leaders because of her relationship with the Sunni Muslim boy.

Scroll down for more ...



The teenager was dragged outside by 8 or 9 men and stoned for half an hour until she died. Her boyfriend is now in hiding in fear for his life

They said she had shamed herself and her family when she failed to return home one night. Some reports suggested she had converted to Islam to be closer to her boyfriend.

Miss Aswad had taken shelter in the house of a Yezidi tribal leader in Bashika, a predominantly Kurdish town near the northern capital, Mosul.

A large crowd watched as eight or nine men stormed the house and dragged Miss Aswad into the street. There they hurled stones at her for half an hour until she was dead.

The stoning happened last month, but only came to light yesterday with the release of the Internet video.

It is feared her death has already triggered a retaliatory attack. Last week 23 Yezidi workmen were forced off a bus travelling from Mosulto Bashika by a group of Sunni gunmen and summarily shot dead.

An Amnesty International spokesman in London said they receive frequent reports of honour crimes from Iraq – particularly in the predominantly Kurdish north.

Most victims are women and girls who are considered by male relatives to have shamed their families by immoral behaviour.

Kurdish authorities have introduced reforms outlawing honour killings, but have failed to investigate them or prosecute suspects, added the Amnesty spokesman.

Kate Allen, the organisation’s UK director, said: "This young girl’s murder is truly abhorrent and her killers must be brought to justice.

"Unless the authorities respond vigorously to this and any other reports of crimes in the name of 'honour', we must fear for the future of women in Iraq." [/I]

[gabosaurus]

There are crimes of honors in many countries and many faiths. There are parents in the U.S. who have been known to kill their own children because they didn't meet expectations. You can't single out certain instances and make them representative.

Look at Andrea Yates. She was a very devout Christian. Drowned five of her kids in a bathtub.
David Koresh was a devout believer. So was Tim McVey.

How many of you are wishing death on an entire race of people, in the name of God?

[Hagbard Celine]

I read a good column this morning on the subject of the "terrorist threat."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/04/DDG0LPJSFL1.DTL&hw=mark+morford&sn=001&sc=1000

[Trigg]

There are crimes of honors in many countries and many faiths. There are parents in the U.S. who have been known to kill their own children because they didn't meet expectations. You can't single out certain instances and make them representative.

Look at Andrea Yates. She was a very devout Christian. Drowned five of her kids in a bathtub.
David Koresh was a devout believer. So was Tim McVey.

How many of you are wishing death on an entire race of people, in the name of God?

Yates killing her children was not an honor killing.

Tim McVey, again not an honor killing so I don't know why you posted this.

David Koresh, yes religion played a part in this, but is not on the level of this article. That was during clintons years and IMO shouldn't have happend the way it did.

Honor killings are almost wholy a muslim problem. Rapists taking reveng on the daughters of the men/brothers they are after. Mutilating girls who they suspect of "improper" acts. These are HUGE problems coming out of muslim controlled countries.

[Nukeman]

There are crimes of honors in many countries and many faiths. There are parents in the U.S. who have been known to kill their own children because they didn't meet expectations. You can't single out certain instances and make them representative.

Look at Andrea Yates. She was a very devout Christian. Drowned five of her kids in a bathtub.
David Koresh was a devout believer. So was Tim McVey.

How many of you are wishing death on an entire race of people, in the name of God?
You really are dense aren't you. You honostly equate these types of instances with a practice condoned by the Islamic religion.

Your comparison is soo out there!!!! Honor killing are practiced throughout Islam not just by a few nut jobs that happen to practice Christianity. Also the last time I checked the Chrstian faith frowns upon and does not condon killing your children for the sake of honor in fact I do believe it is one of our cardinal sins you know the one about thou shall not kill and all that.. If a woman is raped in the Christian faith it is the fault of the rapist not the woman. Get a life and quit making excuses for an inherently violent culture and religion...

[gabosaurus]

McVey has insisted that Oklahoma City was a type of "honor killing."
Nukeman, if you studied Islam instead of merely bashing, you would know that these isolated incidents are not condoned by Islam. I am sure you have violated as many women and children as the average Muslim. Perhaps more.

[Nukeman]

McVey has insisted that Oklahoma City was a type of "honor killing."
Nukeman, if you studied Islam instead of merely bashing, you would know that these isolated incidents are not condoned by Islam. I am sure you have violated as many women and children as the average Muslim. Perhaps more.
First of all it is not a isolated incident it happens every day if you botherd to do a little studying yourself you would know that.

Second I do study Islam, it is after all the fastest growing religion and I for one like to be informed.

Third I would like to say you are a sick depraved bitch I have never violated a woman let alone a child and for you to infer as much is an unprovoked personal attack on my character.

By your post are you saying that all Muslim men violate women and children?? You are a worthless piece of shit....:fu:

[diuretic]

duplicated.

[Gaffer]

McVey has insisted that Oklahoma City was a type of "honor killing."
Nukeman, if you studied Islam instead of merely bashing, you would know that these isolated incidents are not condoned by Islam. I am sure you have violated as many women and children as the average Muslim. Perhaps more.

I don't call you jihadosaurus for nothing. Your a islamist appologist who obviously knows absolutely nothing about islam.

Nukeman is right you are a total piece of SHIT. :fu:

[diuretic]

See here is where your a little confused on the US. For the most part the conservatives in the US are more than happy to let everyone enjoy their lives as long as there is a certain degree of assimilation and resepct for others beliefs. Unfortunately the Liberals in this country say we have to have multiculturalism and everyone is allowed to practice as they see fit.

In other words it is not the evangelicle per se or the conservative that will ultimately cause the biggest problems with Islam but the Liberals who will not take a stand to stop the hatered. If a Christian stands up and says they dont agree with hurting others in the name of religion like Islam, the Christian is called a hate monger and rascist yet the Islamist can call for the killing of all infidels and thats a freedom of religion. We should accept that they are just different. I could go on and on about the discrepencies that are present in the current US politicle and religous debates but I think you get my point..

You cant expect Christians to be accepting of Islam and yet not expect Islam to be accepting of Christianity. This is exactly what is happening here in the US and around the world. double standards have always pissed me off and will continue to do so untill the day I die. Don't cram accept me down my throat but than tell me I should die because I dont follow your religion and you dont have to accept me or my beliefs....

One of the features of American culture I admire is - and I'm not soaping you up - the live and let live. Unlike my country's dominant culture, where conformity rules, I know that Americans couldn't give a rat's about what the next bloke does as long as it doesn't hurt anyone or break the law. I like that. Someone can walk down the street wearing outrageous clothing or hair styles and no-one so much as turns a hair. Do that here and people would be reaching for their mobile phones to call the cops. Sad.

Multiculturalism. We like to think we are. We're not, no way. Australians are by and large xenophobes. We like you visiting but we don't want you to stay. If you've got a different skin colour from the dominant Anglo-Irish (which is me, Anglo-Irish middle-aged male) then we fear you immediately. Heck this country had spiteful fights between the Protestants and the Cathollics in politics and other aspects of public life right up until the 1970s. We gave multiculturalism a try, not a good old college try, just a pale imitation, now we're trying to wind it back. We are re-inventing it now but in a much more conservative fashion.

Extreme tolerance is a form of self-hatred. I'm a fairly tolerant person. But I have my limits. You break the law you pay for it and I don't care if you're bringing up culture or your personal history as an excuse. If you come to this country then you shed any practices from your home culture that violate our laws or mores, if you want to continue to practice female circumcision then go back from whence you came. Contrary to what some readers may think I am tolerant about religion. I'm not religous but I'm not anti-religious. I will mock hypocrisy and cant, wherever I find it. I would resist any attempt of any religious group to bend, shape or change our secular legal system. For example, I don't care if it's Canon Law, Sharia or Halacha, if it bumps up against our secular law then stop doing it or get out.

[diuretic]

On honour killings - of course Wikipedia has an entry on it - interesting one too and it has some good references and worth a read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

[Kathianne]

One of the features of American culture I admire is - and I'm not soaping you up - the live and let live. Unlike my country's dominant culture, where conformity rules, I know that Americans couldn't give a rat's about what the next bloke does as long as it doesn't hurt anyone or break the law. I like that. Someone can walk down the street wearing outrageous clothing or hair styles and no-one so much as turns a hair. Do that here and people would be reaching for their mobile phones to call the cops. Sad.

Multiculturalism. We like to think we are. We're not, no way. Australians are by and large xenophobes. We like you visiting but we don't want you to stay. If you've got a different skin colour from the dominant Anglo-Irish (which is me, Anglo-Irish middle-aged male) then we fear you immediately. Heck this country had spiteful fights between the Protestants and the Cathollics in politics and other aspects of public life right up until the 1970s. We gave multiculturalism a try, not a good old college try, just a pale imitation, now we're trying to wind it back. We are re-inventing it now but in a much more conservative fashion.

Extreme tolerance is a form of self-hatred. I'm a fairly tolerant person. But I have my limits. You break the law you pay for it and I don't care if you're bringing up culture or your personal history as an excuse. If you come to this country then you shed any practices from your home culture that violate our laws or mores, if you want to continue to practice female circumcision then go back from whence you came. Contrary to what some readers may think I am tolerant about religion. I'm not religous but I'm not anti-religious. I will mock hypocrisy and cant, wherever I find it. I would resist any attempt of any religious group to bend, shape or change our secular legal system. For example, I don't care if it's Canon Law, Sharia or Halacha, if it bumps up against our secular law then stop doing it or get out.

Whether or not you meant to, you've just described what I think is the majority of GOP voters, sans the far right.

[diuretic]

Whether or not you meant to, you've just described what I think is the majority of GOP voters, sans the far right.

Good, because I never said they were unreasonable people, just holding very different opinions on specific policies from me. I know the nutbar right and left are the 3%/3% on the old normative curve, there's the rest of us moderate and reasonable people sitting in the 33%/33% - thankfully.

[Kathianne]

Good, because I never said they were unreasonable people, just holding very different opinions on specific policies from me. I know the nutbar right and left are the 3%/3% on the old normative curve, there's the rest of us moderate and reasonable people sitting in the 33%/33% - thankfully.
I don't think you are correct on the 3% of either party, while I've not a clue to their actual percentages, I do think from the influence they apparently wield, the 'far left' is larger than the 'far right'.

[Gaffer]

I don't think you are correct on the 3% of either party, while I've not a clue to their actual percentages, I do think from the influence they apparently wield, the 'far left' is larger than the 'far right'.

I agree, I think its closer to 30% far left and 3% far right. And many of the normal left are being intimidated by the far left.

[diuretic]

I don't think you are correct on the 3% of either party, while I've not a clue to their actual percentages, I do think from the influence they apparently wield, the 'far left' is larger than the 'far right'.

I was just guessing, using the normative curve.

[gabosaurus]

I don't call you jihadosaurus for nothing. Your a islamist appologist who obviously knows absolutely nothing about islam.

Nukeman is right you are a total piece of SHIT. :fu:

What an intelligent response. I hope you never have kids. :cool:

[avatar4321]

What an intelligent response. I hope you never have kids. :cool:

Atleast he wouldnt murder his...

[gabosaurus]

Atleast he wouldnt murder his...

What makes you think? He could always morph into Andrea Yates. :slap:

[loosecannon]

I don't think you are correct on the 3% of either party, while I've not a clue to their actual percentages, I do think from the influence they apparently wield, the 'far left' is larger than the 'far right'.


Does the "far right" include all three GOP candidates in the debate who do not believe in evolution?

Because that would approximate a 15% society wide presence.

Your 3%/30% distribution defies statistical norms.

[diuretic]

Does the "far right" include all three GOP candidates in the debate who do not believe in evolution?

Because that would approximate a 15% society wide presence.

Your 3%/30% distribution defies statistical norms.

You have politicians who don't believe in evolution???!!!!!!!

You are shitting me!!!!!!!!!

[Hobbit]

Just because they find it farfetched that the double-helix and all of the other near-infinite complexity of life just came about by random chance doesn't make them stupid, nor does it make them extremists. In fact, there's quite a bit of evidence that Darwinian evolution is bullcrap, such as the arguments of irreducable complexity and the 'Cambrian Explosion.'

[diuretic]

Just because they find it farfetched that the double-helix and all of the other near-infinite complexity of life just came about by random chance doesn't make them stupid, nor does it make them extremists. In fact, there's quite a bit of evidence that Darwinian evolution is bullcrap, such as the arguments of irreducable complexity and the 'Cambrian Explosion.'

Sorry, did I say something to cause this?

[Hobbit]

Sorry, did I say something to cause this?

Not you so much as loose bowels up there. Still, the fact that you seem SHOCKED that somebody in a position of prominence doubts evolution...let's just say I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic, especially with all of those exclamation marks, which doesn't seem to be your style.

[diuretic]

Not you so much as loose bowels up there. Still, the fact that you seem SHOCKED that somebody in a position of prominence doubts evolution...let's just say I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic, especially with all of those exclamation marks, which doesn't seem to be your style.

No I am stunned. I always am when I hear someone who is apparently of sound mind say that that they doubt evolution.

[Hobbit]

No I am stunned. I always am when I hear someone who is apparently of sound mind say that that they doubt evolution.

First off, before anybody chimes in, we're talking Darwinian evolution, which leads to new species, rather than what some call 'micro-evolution,' which is slight variations within an existing species to adapt to the environment, such as hairy white guys living in northern Europe and dark-skinned humans living in the sunnier places of the world. I typically just call that 'adaptation' to avoid confusion.

Well, it's hard to find the people arguing against it, because they tend to get persecuted. There was one case of a guy who had multiple Ph.D.'s in appropriate fields (like biology) who worked for the Smithsonian. He green-lit a properly peer-reviewed article on ancient life forms that covered the massive question of the Cambrian Explosion,* and listed it as a possble 'complication' in thoughts on evolution. Note, he didn't write it, he just ok'd it for publishing. Before long, he was fired by the Smithsonian and accused of having never gone to any college except seminary, because he was nothing but a religious zealot and a hack. It had quite a chilling effect on future articles.

In another case, a science teacher got fired in Washington state under 'the seperation of church and state' for showing his class newspaper articles on a recently unearthed pre-Cambrian stratum discovered in China. The date on the stratum and the life forms found fossilized support the theory that the Cambrian Explosion* could not have been occured if modern evolutionary theory was correct, as the life forms found were too close in date, yet too far removed in complexity to have evolved into early Cambrian life forms.

*The Cambrian Explosion is a current problem for those who staunchly believe Darwinian Evolution. According to fossil evidence, life forms existing just prior to the Cambrian Era were incredibly simple, with multi-cellular life forms consisting mostly of sponges and anenomes. Then, within a relatively short span (10 million years, I think, which is the blink of an eye on the scale we're talking about), nearly every known phylum of life around today emerged. Until the discovery of the Chinese stratum, this was explained by saying that pre-Cambrian life didn't fossilize well. While Chinese scientists (China having its atheism enforced by law) have begun exploring possible explanations of this phenomenon, Western scientists have stuck to suppressing it (where we're supposedly tolerant).

The other problem is irreducable complexity, where a feature's most basic stage is still too complex to have mutated randomly. Take the eye, for example. The evolution of the eye starts with light-sensitive cells that, over eons, grow in complexity, sink into sockets for protection, and eventually the protective and focusing parts join with it in branching off into a seperate organ. I can accept this, except for the starting point. A light sensitive cell requires enough of a mutation to make chemicals that can react to photons and translate that reaction to an electrical impulse. This mutation would also require a nerve bundle carrying this signal to the brain and a brain capable of interpereting the signals. The odds of this occurring randomly are astronomical, as even basic cellular functions, such as flagellae or cilia, require dozens, if not thousands, of gene sequences.

Now, these two aren't the only arguments against evolution, and they don't necessarily prove that it's false. They do, however, provide reasonable doubt, so reasonable people often doubt evolution.

Oh, and for the record, I used to believe evolution was true. You see, it doesn't matter to my religion if evolution is true or not. God still created us, it's just that the methods varied a bit. However, I doubt it more and more as I find things like this out. If evolution is, indeed, proven, I'll simply raise my eyebrows and say, "Huh, interesting." However, seeing the kind of desperation and aggression of many people on the other side of the debate leads me to remember that evolution MUST be true for atheism to be true, or at least it would seem so at this time.

[diuretic]

Im quite happy to keep religion and science separate. I don't see evolution as being a threat to anyone's religion.

I do see religion - if it encroaches on science - as being a threat to good science.

It concerns me when I read junk science being pushed by religionists who are not interested in critiquing, let's say, Darwinian evolution, for scientific reasons but for religious reasons. I wonder why they find it necessary to do so. I also wonder why religious people grasp at examples of junk science and parade them. Is their faith so fragile?

[Hobbit]

Im quite happy to keep religion and science separate. I don't see evolution as being a threat to anyone's religion.

I do see religion - if it encroaches on science - as being a threat to good science.

It concerns me when I read junk science being pushed by religionists who are not interested in critiquing, let's say, Darwinian evolution, for scientific reasons but for religious reasons. I wonder why they find it necessary to do so. I also wonder why religious people grasp at examples of junk science and parade them. Is their faith so fragile?

I see the same thing on the other side.

As for science and religion, I think they go great together, until you start taking yourself too seriously. Most of the great scientific advances of the west can be attributed to Christianity, as Rennaissance scientists were looking to understand God and His creation. Now, we have Christians mocking solid science because it doesn't follow a literal interpretation of the Bible and Atheists (notice the uppercase 'A') mocking good science because it doesn't preclude the existence of God. What the hell happened?

On a side note, Chinese behavioral scientists have concluded that Christianity led to the advance of science in the West. Many civilizations were more as or more advanced than the west at the beginning of the middle ages, but only the west developed true physics, turned alchemy into chemistry, and set to explore the world. After years of intense study, the conclusion was that the ethics and worldview of the Christian religion are what drove the scientists further (despite the stories of the church blocking such things as astronomy).

Science has often been stagnated by unsupported assumptions. Astronomy suffered due to an assumption that the Earth was central and stationary. Chemistry suffered because the four elements were assumed to be earth, air, fire, and water. Now, science often suffers under such unsupported assumptions as the Earth being a mere 6000 years old or that there can be no such being as 'God.'

[diuretic]

I see the same thing on the other side.

As for science and religion, I think they go great together, until you start taking yourself too seriously. Most of the great scientific advances of the west can be attributed to Christianity, as Rennaissance scientists were looking to understand God and His creation. Now, we have Christians mocking solid science because it doesn't follow a literal interpretation of the Bible and Atheists (notice the uppercase 'A') mocking good science because it doesn't preclude the existence of God. What the hell happened?

Good points. I suppose it's crass to bring up Galileo? I think - and I'm using that word deliberately, to denote that this is just opinion - that while science was working within the accepted bounds of the church it was acceptable, but the moment science began raising questions about dogma, it became unacceptable. And it's been that way for a very long time and it's still going on. Look at Teilhard de Chardin and what happened to him.

Yes, Christians mocking science is ridiculous. But Atheists mocking science is the same situation. I mean for me - and I am not in any way scientifically minded - science is about keeping an open mind. I'm not religious and I'm not agnostic, I am without any sense of god but I'm not hostile. No, I'm not having a sort of Pascal's Wager on this. If God exists then He isn't going to be conned by someone have a bob each way.



On a side note, Chinese behavioral scientists have concluded that Christianity led to the advance of science in the West. Many civilizations were more as or more advanced than the west at the beginning of the middle ages, but only the west developed true physics, turned alchemy into chemistry, and set to explore the world. After years of intense study, the conclusion was that the ethics and worldview of the Christian religion are what drove the scientists further (despite the stories of the church blocking such things as astronomy).

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. But I did make the point about the divergence being threatening (first par in my response). Ah I just thought of something. Doctor Mirabilis. Yes, the Chinese may indeed have a very good point. Aristotle, the influence in Bacon's thinking, is in there again. Empiricism. Sorry, thinking as I write here. Very interesting. Yes, the Church, well people like Bacon at least who were thinkers in the Church, does feature in early science. Well waddyaknow!



Science has often been stagnated by unsupported assumptions. Astronomy suffered due to an assumption that the Earth was central and stationary. Chemistry suffered because the four elements were assumed to be earth, air, fire, and water. Now, science often suffers under such unsupported assumptions as the Earth being a mere 6000 years old or that there can be no such being as 'God.'

If science assumes there is no such thing as 'God' then it may as well pack up and leave the building now. For mine that's an example of the closed mind that is anathema to science.

[Hobbit]

And we are now in agreement. Let this be an example unto all the board what happens when two people think rationally and talk honestly.

[loosecannon]

Most of the great scientific advances of the west can be attributed to Christianity

Chinese behavioral scientists have concluded that Christianity led to the advance of science in the West.

After years of intense study, the conclusion was that the ethics and worldview of the Christian religion are what drove the scientists further .

LINKS? LINKS? LINKS? PLEASE?


Now, science often suffers under such unsupported assumptions as the Earth being a mere 6000 years old or that there can be no such being as 'God.'

How in the fuck do you perceive science suffering because scientists assume that there is no god?

I mean science definitely has it's shortcomings and is a faith based doctrine in it's own right, but how does the assumption of no God hinder science?

[loosecannon]

If science assumes there is no such thing as 'God' then it may as well pack up and leave the building now. For mine that's an example of the closed mind that is anathema to science.

unfortunately Science has made no such assuptions. In fact half or more of all scientists believe in a God of some sort.

[loosecannon]

Just because they find it farfetched that the double-helix and all of the other near-infinite complexity of life just came about by random chance doesn't make them stupid, nor does it make them extremists. In fact, there's quite a bit of evidence that Darwinian evolution is bullcrap, such as the arguments of irreducable complexity and the 'Cambrian Explosion.'

evolution IS NOT based on random chance.

It does make them extremists.

Evidence? LINKS (oh this is about to get really FUUUUUUUUN!!!)

Like shootin fish in a bucket fun!!!!!!

[loosecannon]

And we are now in agreement. Let this be an example unto all the board what happens when two people think rationally and talk honestly.


Only one of you was rational, the other was eating opium by the handful and speaking in tongues.

[diuretic]

unfortunately Science has made no such assuptions. In fact half or more of all scientists believe in a God of some sort.

I suppose they had their belief before they came to science and really, I don't see a problem there, as long as they keep their faith out of the lab or the lecture hall.

[Hobbit]

This is just typical of you, loose. Two of us are having a civil, honest discussion about something using logic and reason, and then you come in here like a bull in a china shop, call eveyone a dumass, extremist, conservative zealot, and then demand links on everything from the color of the sky to the fact that men and women have biological differences, as well as redefining everything from 'capitalism' to the word 'is' before arguing. You pick fights everywhere you go. Your entry into a discussion is the death toll of civility. You're the kind of prick who just isn't happy unless everybody is fighting. Go wallow in your own hole of hostility and let those of us mature enough to speak with civility and in soft tones have an adult conversation. If it's a fight you want, go talk to OCA and Pale Rider. I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige, but I'm not responding to your childish tantrums any more.

[loosecannon]

This is just typical of you, loose. Two of us are having a civil, honest discussion about something using logic and reason, and then you come in here like a bull in a china shop, call eveyone a dumass, extremist, conservative zealot, and then demand links on everything from the color of the sky to the fact that men and women have biological differences, as well as redefining everything from 'capitalism' to the word 'is' before arguing. You pick fights everywhere you go. Your entry into a discussion is the death toll of civility. You're the kind of prick who just isn't happy unless everybody is fighting. Go wallow in your own hole of hostility and let those of us mature enough to speak with civility and in soft tones have an adult conversation. If it's a fight you want, go talk to OCA and Pale Rider. I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige, but I'm not responding to your childish tantrums any more.

iow you can't defend any of your positions.

I admit I love to attack a foolish argument. I esp enjoyed your statement that evolution came about by random chance.


Just because they find it farfetched that the double-helix and all of the other near-infinite complexity of life just came about by random chance doesn't make them stupid, nor does it make them extremists.

Sorry Hobbit you can't just lob these silly arguments around a public debate forum without expecting somebody to call you on em.

[loosecannon]

I suppose they had their belief before they came to science and really, I don't see a problem there, as long as they keep their faith out of the lab or the lecture hall.

I don't have a prob with it either.

I used to wonder tho how such bright educated, informed people could believe in the fantasies of religion and also the certified truth of science.

But as I got older and learned more i came to realize that science itself is as faith based as religion. It just has much better documentation of evidence. But the conclusions drawn are as susceptible to human flights of fancy. And science has so far utterly failed in all of it's original goals.

If it weren't for the astonishing perks of scienctific experimentation it would be a pretty silly endeavor.

[Hobbit]

iow you can't defend any of your positions.

I admit I love to attack a foolish argument. I esp enjoyed your statement that evolution came about by random chance.



Sorry Hobbit you can't just lob these silly arguments around a public debate forum without expecting somebody to call you on em.

What's so silly about it? You came in here flapping your gums. YOU back it up.

And you haven't 'called' me on anything. You've essentially thrown a tantrum, and now, like a three year old, you expect me to do whatever it takes to appease you, but it won't work. You can ding me. You can taunt me. You can keep up this little tantrum you're throwing, but I have nothing more to say to you.

[Doniston]

Given statistics and polls gathered in Muslim countries, somewhere in the ball park of 250 million Muslims condone violence against civilians, even if those civilian deaths include other Muslims. More at the link

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/05/a_rising_tide_of_fury.html

In MY Humble Opinion, not nearly as big a threat as is Israel.

[Doniston]

What the hell are you even talking about? Quite simple. he is agreeing with my last comment.

[Doniston]

Prove hate squads.

Their land? They all wanted Saddam gone, well except a few sunnis. You don't jack. Go to a muslim forum and ask any muslim if they want saddam back.

Do it. One just hit LA. 60 plus.

[5stringJeff]

In MY Humble Opinion, not nearly as big a threat as is Israel.

And when exactly did 19 Israelis hijack airplanes and fly them into skyscrapers, killing thousands?

[Kathianne]

In MY Humble Opinion, not nearly as big a threat as is Israel.
I'll play, for a little while at least. Why do you say that?

[Doniston]

And when exactly did 19 Israelis hijack airplanes and fly them into skyscrapers, killing thousands? never, but why did they do it. maybe in retaliation to what we have been doing to them for fifty odd years?

Ask Osama. he admitted the reason.

[Doniston]

I'll play, for a little while at least. Why do you say that? We have been asking for it ever since 1956, by supporting the Israeli Regimes. Israel is the absolute threat to that part of the world, and we are helping them.

[Dilloduck]

never, but why did they do it. maybe in retaliation to what we have been doing to them for fifty odd years?

Ask Osama. he admitted the reason.

If he is in Pakistan do you see any reason not to go in after him? Here's his declaration of war. Care to comment on the legitimacy of any other of his reasons for killing civilians ANYWHERE ?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html

[Kathianne]

We have been asking for it ever since 1956, by supporting the Israeli Regimes. Israel is the absolute threat to that part of the world, and we are helping them.

Why is Israel a threat? I mean in 1956, using your year?

[Said1]

never, but why did they do it. maybe in retaliation to what we have been doing to them for fifty odd years?

Ask Osama. he admitted the reason.

Osama is a patsy.

[Kathianne]

Osama is a patsy.

for whom or what?

[Said1]

for whom or what?

For Mitel. He wants his own barbie, but they refuse. Too ugly.

[Kathianne]

For Mitel. He wants his own barbie, but they refuse. Too ugly.

LOL! I gotcha!

[Doniston]

If he is in Pakistan do you see any reason not to go in after him? Here's his declaration of war. Care to comment on the legitimacy of any other of his reasons for killing civilians ANYWHERE ?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html

1. First question yah, its a waste of time to be digging thru all that rubble to find his remains.

2. Only his reasons for 911- (Paraphrased) because of our stupid and unending support of Israel, and thus assisting the destruction of surrounding nations.

[darin]

2. Only his reasons for 911- (Paraphrased) because of our stupid and unending support of Israel, and thus assisting the destruction of surrounding nations.


That's naive.

fwiw, The Support of Israel is a NOBLE and GOOD thing

[Doniston]

Why is Israel a threat? I mean in 1956, using your year? Just the beginning.

1, In 1947 Israel was given lands to make a nation which was then stolen from the rightful owners, And continued a Cleansing action to get rid or all non jews.

2. up until 1956, we stayed out of it, but then came the Suez Crises wherein the Us sat on thr fence and allowed Israel to hold sway. (I became involved at that time)

3. It wasn't until the 60s that the US took an active part in the protection of Israel, but from then on, by big-brothering Israeli, we assisted them in their reign of terror against the Rightfull owners of the land. No wonder the Palastinians are teed off.

[Gaffer]

Just the beginning.

1, In 1947 Israel was given lands to make a nation which was then stolen from the rightful owners, And continued a Cleansing action to get rid or all non jews.

2. up until 1956, we stayed out of it, but then came the Suez Crises wherein the Us sat on thr fence and allowed Israel to hold sway. (I became involved at that time)

3. It wasn't until the 60s that the US took an active part in the protection of Israel, but from then on, by big-brothering Israeli, we assisted them in their reign of terror against the Rightfull owners of the land. No wonder the Palastinians are teed off.

In 1947 Israel became a nation. They were attacked by every arab in the region. The only cleansing done was to get rid of those that attacked them.

In 1956 egypt belligerently blockaded the suez canal and did not allow shipping to Israel. As a soveriegn country Israel had the right to take action there and they won.

In 1967 Israel was attacked by all the surrounding arab countries again. They soundly defeated them and kept a lot of the terroritory as a buffer zone to prevent such attacks from happening again.

[Dilloduck]

1. First question yah, its a waste of time to be digging thru all that rubble to find his remains.

2. Only his reasons for 911- (Paraphrased) because of our stupid and unending support of Israel, and thus assisting the destruction of surrounding nations.


Bah---A red herring thrown to garner Arab support for kicking the US and the Sauds off of the Arabian peninsula. I assume you think it would be a great idea to have Bin Ladens brand of Islam in control of the entire ME ?

[Fountainhead]

That is one of the most obscure movie references I have seen on any board other than Rifftrax. "They Live!" with Rowdy Roddy Piper, right?

http://imdb.com/title/tt0096256/

RIGHT ! Dude, I thought that EVERYONE has seen this fine John Carpenter film at least as many times as I have. I am shocked that imdb users only gave it 6.6 stars !! Way underrated ! It's a cult classic ! Especially the fight scene, and the long tumble down the Hollywood hillside.