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If you have anything to ask about Islam, i will be ready to answer it, maybe i can straighten some of your ideas about the islamic religion.....
jimnyc
09-04-2010, 11:08 AM
If you have anything to ask about Islam, i will be ready to answer it, maybe i can straighten some of your ideas about the islamic religion.....
Why are there still a lot of places where women are treated like 2nd class citizens? Why do a lot of the laws in these places work against women? Example - in a lot of places, if a woman is raped, it it as easy as filing a lawsuit and naming the guilty party?
Again, still in a lot of places, what would happen to someone if they wanted to convert from Islam to another religion?
I have 5 very good friends who work down the road from me. They ask me a lot of questions about our culture while they answer questions of mine about Islam. They've all lived in Islamic countries all their lives until recently. I'm curious how your answers compare to theirs.
darin
09-04-2010, 11:48 AM
Why does Islam make it so difficult please Allah?
Does Allah WANT a relationship with people?
Why does Allah demand foolish rituals of his Children?
Much appreciate your openness.
:beer::beer::salute:
If I may ask questions on your view of certain issues, rather than on islam itself.
Do you agree with the penalty for apostasy as detailed 'in' Islamic teachings?
Do you think the life of Mohammed was a moral one that we should all aspire to?
Do you think there should be a punishment for depicting Mohammed, if so, what?
Why are there still a lot of places where women are treated like 2nd class citizens? Why do a lot of the laws in these places work against women? Example - in a lot of places, if a woman is raped, it it as easy as filing a lawsuit and naming the guilty party?
Again, still in a lot of places, what would happen to someone if they wanted to convert from Islam to another religion?
I have 5 very good friends who work down the road from me. They ask me a lot of questions about our culture while they answer questions of mine about Islam. They've all lived in Islamic countries all their lives until recently. I'm curious how your answers compare to theirs.
Why are there still a lot of places where women are treated like 2nd class citizens?
Treating a woman as inferior human being to men is not related to islam, its a culture that human have been practicing through history, in the races, in the last centuries this kind of treatment have nearly vanished in some places, and didnt in other places, but its certainly its not like what its was 500 hundred years ago when women was being sold in slave markets.
what islam teaches us is to repect our women, and treat them gently, never to abuse them, because in our religion, the woman is the mother, and the mother is the most respected human being over all, in our concept, the paradise can only be achieved by treating our mothers in a good manner.
when a man went to Muhammed (PBUH),and asked him: which one in the world deserves my most care and attention ?
Muhammed said: your mother
The man said: then who
Muhammed said: your mother
The man said: then who
Muhammed said: your mother
The man said: then who
Muhammed said: your father
our prophet insisted on mentioning the mother 3 times before saying the father, that shows how much is the woman and the mother is respected in islam.
In quran allah addresses men and women in the same manner:
The men and women of the believers are friends of one another. They command what is right and forbid what is wrong and perform prayer and give the alms, and obey Allah and His Messenger. They are the people on whom Allah will have mercy. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. Allah has promised the men and women of the believers Gardens with rivers flowing under them, remaining in them timelessly, for ever, and fine dwellings in the Gardens of Eden. And Allah's good pleasure is even greater. That is the great victory. (Surat at-Tawba: 71-72)
Men and women who are Muslims, men and women who are believers, men and women who are obedient, men and women who are truthful, men and women who are steadfast, men and women who are humble, men and women who give in charity, men and women who fast, men and women who guard their private parts, men and women who remember Allah much: Allah has prepared forgiveness for them and an immense reward. (Surat al-Ahzab: 35)
Anyone, male or female, who does right actions and is a believer, will enter the Garden. They will not be wronged by so much as the tiniest speck. (Surat an-Nisa': 124)
In quran about divorce:
There are many measures taken in the Qur'an securing a woman's rights after divorce. The ones pertaining to her economic situation maintain the welfare of a divorced woman. The following verses inform us about the benefits and monetary assistance specified by the mutual consent of both parties as well as the treatment due a woman after separation:
Divorced women should receive maintenance given with correctness and courtesy: a duty for all who are righteous. (Surat al-Baqara: 241)
…Give them a gift - he who is wealthy according to his means and he who is less well off according to his means - a gift to be given with correctness and courtesy: a duty for all good-doers. If you divorce them before you have touched them but have already allotted them a dowry, they should have half the amount which you allotted, unless they forgo it or the one in charge of the marriage contract forgoes it. To forgo it is closer to heedfulness. Do not forget to show generosity to one another. Allah sees what you do. (Surat al-Baqara: 236-237)
He who has plenty should spend out from his plenty, but he whose provision is restricted should spend from what Allah has given him. Allah does not demand from any self more than He has given it. Allah will appoint after difficulty, ease. (Surat at-Talaq: 7)
Again from the verses, we know that, after the divorce, it is not lawful for a man to keep anything he had given to his wife during the marriage. All needs of a divorced woman related to housing are also guaranteed during the 'iddah (waiting) period after the divorce. According to the Qur'an, it is also unlawful to inherit women by force.
What has been related so far reveals that adhering to the Qur'an brings solutions. In a society where people live by the Qur'an, women are not subjected to maltreatment and dishonored as in other societies.
The islamic religion never called for violence against women, it has respected the woman in evrey aspect of her life, my religion teaches me that i should be gentle and caring and loving towards my wife, my daughter, my mother, my sister, and towards every woman.
if some people interpreted the quran in their own way, and they think that women should be their slaves, then its their own mind that needs mending, they just interpret the religion for their own benifit.
i can bring you alot other verses from the quran that calls for the respect of woman and mother, but i think thats enough for this question.
if you want to read more about this subject:
http://www.womaninthequran.com/articles_01.html
and this is a site about the islamic woman, in english, it takes Maryam as an example for the good woman.
http://www.womaninthequran.com/
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Why do a lot of the laws in these places work against women? Example - in a lot of places, if a woman is raped, it it as easy as filing a lawsuit and naming the guilty party?
In islam, rape is a crime, its penalty is Death, if some countries does not care about this law, this is their problem, not the religion's problem, the religion clearly stated that rape is a crime that desreves a death penalty.
so, are you satisfied with this penalty or do you think that not enough !!!
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Again, still in a lot of places, what would happen to someone if they wanted to convert from Islam to another religion?
The quran and our prophet never called for the killing of anyone who converts from islam, this act is stupid, and islam never called for it, in egypt, our law gives anyone the right to convert from islam to christianity, or from christianity to islam, its their right, Al-Azhar, the largest Islamic institution in the world has never objected to anyone who converted from islam to christianity.
the ones who object, is the family of the converted one, some islamic families kills who converts to christianity, and some christian families kills who converts to islam,
There was an incident two years ago in egypt, were a christian woman converted to islam, and married a muslim man, they lived together for 3 years, they had 2 kids, oneday, when they were getting out of their building, the woman's brother, who is christian of course, shot her and her family with an automatic rifle, killed her husband, injured her and her 9 moths daughter.
2 weeks ago, 6 christians, killed a muslim man, because he married a daughter of one of them, who converted from christianity to islam, they followed the daughter and tried to convince her to leave her husband and return to christianity, when she refused, they killed her husband.
i just want to tell you, that its the families that hate the convertion of one of their kids to another raligion, some accept that and some dont, its not the religions that call for the death of the converted people.
again i assure you that the islamic religion never called for killing the converted muslims to christianity, and Al-Azhar never objected to the convertion and the egyptian law does not forbid the convertion.
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Why does Islam make it so difficult please Allah?
Does Allah WANT a relationship with people?
Why does Allah demand foolish rituals of his Children?
Much appreciate your openness.
:beer::beer::salute:
Why does Islam make it so difficult please Allah?
Its not difficult to please Allah in Islam, its very easy, actually all you have to do, is to be a good mane, treat people in a good manner, dont lie, dont cheat, dont steal, dont kill, dont hate, dont despise, just be good, is it that difficult ?
All we have to do is to pray 5 times a day, eash prayer wont take more than 5 minutes of your time, so its all 25 minutes daily, and to pay a certain ammount of money annualy to the poor people to help them survive in this world, Islam is pretty simple, its never hard to be a good man.
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Does Allah WANT a relationship with people?
of course Allah does want, in islam its good to have all kinds of relationships, the only forbidden relation is the sex
relation, you can be friends with woman, as long as you be decent with her, talk to her in a decent way, never talk about
inappropriate subjects, just be decent with all women and men, its not that hard.
love in islam is allowed, you can love a woman, but you cant touch or have sex with her until you marry her, that all islam asks, but love is a good thing, to love your friends, love your family, love your wife, love Allah, love everyone around you, and you wont find the life so difficult.
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Why does Allah demand foolish rituals of his Children?
Prayers is not foolish rituals, its a spirtual ritual, so that you can feel close to Allah, so that you can ask forgiveness if you have done something wrong, because none is perfect, we all do wrong things, and the absolute law in islam is that everything and every sin is forgivable except to deny the existence of Allah.
jimnyc
09-04-2010, 01:19 PM
Apostasy:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Punishment_for_apostasy
Great rights for women, to get beated! I could spend days posting articles about the outright shitty treatment of women in Islam. Of course abuse is in all religions and parts of the world, but dominated within the Islamic communities - this is a fact and cannot be disputed.
http://answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm
If I may ask questions on your view of certain issues, rather than on islam itself.
Do you agree with the penalty for apostasy as detailed 'in' Islamic teachings?
Do you think the life of Mohammed was a moral one that we should all aspire to?
Do you think there should be a punishment for depicting Mohammed, if so, what?
Do you agree with the penalty for apostasy as detailed 'in' Islamic teachings?
There is no penalty in islam for apostasy, there never was a verse that called for any penalty for the apostasy.
the apostasy was said about some Tribes that after Muhammed (PBUH) died, they stopped paying the taxes which was called in Islam "Zakat", this is a certain ammount of money, collected annualy, its like the taxes in USA, who doesnt pay it, goes to prison, so, when those tribes stopped paying taxes, a war broke out between them and the Caliph, thats all, but islam never had any penalty for the apostasy.
In the Quran:
"There is no compulsion in religion." Al-Baqara (256)
Muhammed (PBUH) always told the army, never to kill anyone because he doesnt want to be a muslim, its his choice either to be a muslim or to pay the tribute, but its not our job to judge people, its Allah who will judge all of us, and everyone is free to choose his way in life.
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Do you think the life of Mohammed was a moral one that we should all aspire to?
the answer in this article:
Prophet's Moral Teachings
http://www.muhammad.net/morals-and-manners-mainmenu-66/688-prophets-moral-teachings-by-ghazali.html
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Do you think there should be a punishment for depicting Mohammed, if so, what?
if you are refering to the Cartoons about Muhammed (PBUH) then yes i think there should be punishment, its not death of course, but there should be some kind of punishment, like forcing the newspaper to apologize or banning this artist from puplishing his cartoons for some time, but there must be some kind of punishment for hurting the feelings of over than 1 billion human beings.
some may consider them just cartoons, but for us muslims, its an insult, i support freedom opinion, but not when it insult others, you are not free to hurt and insult others, thats an abuse of freedom, freedom has its limits, you can do wutever you like as long as you dont harm others, and the harm is not only physically, if you insulted someone in your class, i think that there will be some kind of punishment, either detention or apologizing to him in from of the whole class.
so when you hurt just 1 person you will have to apologize, but when you insult 1 billion people by your freedom then its okay ???
why was it done in the first place, just to say to the muslims "Fuck your Religion " !!!!!!!!!!, is this a kind of freedom that i should respect and not object to ?, sorry, i dont think that i will respect that kind of act.
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Apostasy:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Punishment_for_apostasy
Great rights for women, to get beated! I could spend days posting articles about the outright shitty treatment of women in Islam. Of course abuse is in all religions and parts of the world, but dominated within the Islamic communities - this is a fact and cannot be disputed.
http://answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm
the site that you are copying from is written by a non muslim, so why do you expect his info to be correct, i started this topic for you to get straight answers from a muslim, not from a christian or a jew or someone who just hate islam.
who is Silas !!!, i dont think that he is a muslim, so stop reading his articles, and tell me if you want to read about anything, and i will get you the articles that were written by the islamic people who understand and studied islam, or you can go to the nearest islamic center, and ask the Imam there about all you want, but dont just read any topic on the internet and believe it.
Muhammed (PBUH) never ever beaten his wifes or daughter, islam never called for abusing the wife, alot mis interpret the verses to think that they are allowed to beat the women as they wish, women are not our slaves, they are our other half, thats what islam teaches us, to repsect and love them.
the english translation was not accurate in certain verses, they just translated it literally without understanding the right meaning of the verse, the islam does not allow the beating of the wife, its just says that when a man is angry from something his wife did, then he just leaves the house and say some where else until his wife recognize her mistake, thats what our prophet did, but he has never beaten his wife.
For the firstt point on apostasy you may get onto Muslim forums and teaching that, because, er, all the ones I've been on / am on have quiet a different answer.
For the second, just to confirm, you believe we should use Mohammeds life as a template for our own, yes/no will do.
For the third point LOL. personally I'm 'in' favour of freedom of expression (if someone gets butthurt 'in' the process oh well) I dot have to respect something just because someone believes it. Do you enjoy montey python? What about 'the life of Brian' tis a wonderful comedy, and one that could surly not be made about Mohammed, right?
As an aside, I received online death threats (lol) for posting this pic, misspellings and all, on Muslim boards. Though I have yet to be hassled by any of these people irl, it just shows the idiocy religion inspires. (little Mo is currently laminated and clipped to my bag, and has started many wonderful discussions, though as of yet none with Muslims.)
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j176/jonathan-mcc/Photoon2010-06-07at12132.jpg
Kathianne
09-04-2010, 02:24 PM
I've read bits and pieces by this man, Abul Ala Mawdudi. His take is quite different than yours, regarding aposty:
To everyone acquainted with Islamic law it is no secret that according to Islam the punishment for a Muslim who turns to kufr (infidelity, blasphemy) is execution. Doubt about this matter first arose among Muslims during the final portion of the nineteenth century as a result of speculation. Otherwise, for the full twelve centuries prior to that time the total Muslim community remained unanimous about it. The whole of our religious literature clearly testifies that ambiguity about the matter of the apostate's execution never existed among Muslims. The expositions of the Prophet, the Rightly-Guided Caliphs (Khulafa'-i Rashidun), the great Companions (Sahaba) of the Prophet, their Followers (Tabi'un), the leaders among the mujtahids and, following them, the doctors of the shari'ah of every century are available on record. All these collectively will assure you that from the time of the Prophet to the present day one injunction only has been continuously and uninterruptedly operative and that no room whatever remains to suggest that perhaps the punishment of the apostate is not execution.
It seems he relies on writings of not just Koran, but also Hadith and Sira writings. You only rely on Koran?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/Mawdudi/index.htm
darin
09-04-2010, 02:43 PM
Why does Islam make it so difficult please Allah?
Its not difficult to please Allah in Islam, its very easy, actually all you have to do, is to be a good mane, treat people in a good manner, dont lie, dont cheat, dont steal, dont kill, dont hate, dont despise, just be good, is it that difficult ?
So Allah forgives and loves those who do things. Being a good muslim is being somebody with good DEEDS.
All we have to do is to pray 5 times a day, eash prayer wont take more than 5 minutes of your time, so its all 25 minutes daily, and to pay a certain ammount of money annualy to the poor people to help them survive in this world, Islam is pretty simple, its never hard to be a good man.
See above. That's where Allah and God differ. God doesn't require anything. What God hates worse than people doing nothing is people going thru rituals expecting their mere actions are pleasing to Him. Allah, the way you describe it, sounds a bit like a bully.
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Does Allah WANT a relationship with people?
of course Allah does want, in islam its good to have all kinds of relationships, the only forbidden relation is the sex
relation, you can be friends with woman, as long as you be decent with her, talk to her in a decent way, never talk about
inappropriate subjects, just be decent with all women and men, its not that hard.
love in islam is allowed, you can love a woman, but you cant touch or have sex with her until you marry her, that all islam asks, but love is a good thing, to love your friends, love your family, love your wife, love Allah, love everyone around you, and you wont find the life so difficult.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does Allah demand foolish rituals of his Children?
Prayers is not foolish rituals, its a spirtual ritual, so that you can feel close to Allah, so that you can ask forgiveness if you have done something wrong, because none is perfect, we all do wrong things, and the absolute law in islam is that everything and every sin is forgivable except to deny the existence of Allah.
Again - Seems to be a good muslim one just has to do shit to impress Allah.
I'll never be able to reconcile that. Much appreciate your insights though.
I've read bits and pieces by this man, Abul Ala Mawdudi. His take is quite different than yours, regarding aposty:
It seems he relies on writings of not just Koran, but also Hadith and Sira writings. You only rely on Koran?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/Mawdudi/index.htm
first of all, i mainly rely on the quran, because its the only thing that i am sure about, but the Hadith, i am not so sure about, it may be false, Muhammed (PBUH) may have never said something while we know it now as a Hadith, its 1400 years, and the Hadith have only been passed through generation by talking, people just telling it to each other, so maybe some liar have told a Hadith thats not true, so i learned to believe the Hadith when its only good, and only calling for peace and good deeds.
again you are relying on a site that has been translated by a non muslim, who hates islam, so how can you trust it ???
when you want to know some truth about islam, please talk to a muslim who likes islam, and seeing it as a peaceful religion, dont talk to a terrorist who interpret the religion for his benifits, or a non muslim who hates islam, am i right ???
as i said before, Islam never stated that a man who converts from islam should be killed, and as i said before, Al-Azhar, which is the largest Islamic Institution in the world, has allowed the convertion from Islam to any other religion, and it never called for any penalty, a few years ago, a Muslim women, converted to christianity, and Al-Azhar recognized her as a christian women, she changed her name to Katren, Al-Azhar never objected to it, and the egyptian law allows the converstion from any religion to another.
so whats your argument !!!, a non muslim translator !!!, and a site which calls for hating the islamic religion ???
So Allah forgives and loves those who do things. Being a good muslim is being somebody with good DEEDS.
See above. That's where Allah and God differ. God doesn't require anything. What God hates worse than people doing nothing is people going thru rituals expecting their mere actions are pleasing to Him. Allah, the way you describe it, sounds a bit like a bully.
Again - Seems to be a good muslim one just has to do shit to impress Allah.
I'll never be able to reconcile that. Much appreciate your insights though.
its not to impress Allah, two months ago, i once described religions as merely a moral guidance, its just guide line for us to be good men and women, to be good to each other.
a bully is someone who force you to do something, but Allah is not forcing any muslim to do anything, its our choice if we want to be good men or not, that why there are terrorist who chose to be murderers, and there is good muslims who never harm anyone, its just your choice, you choose to be good or not, its only your choice that forms the way of your life, not your religion.
For the firstt point on apostasy you may get onto Muslim forums and teaching that, because, er, all the ones I've been on / am on have quiet a different answer.
For the second, just to confirm, you believe we should use Mohammeds life as a template for our own, yes/no will do.
For the third point LOL. personally I'm 'in' favour of freedom of expression (if someone gets butthurt 'in' the process oh well) I dot have to respect something just because someone believes it. Do you enjoy montey python? What about 'the life of Brian' tis a wonderful comedy, and one that could surly not be made about Mohammed, right?
As an aside, I received online death threats (lol) for posting this pic, misspellings and all, on Muslim boards. Though I have yet to be hassled by any of these people irl, it just shows the idiocy religion inspires. (little Mo is currently laminated and clipped to my bag, and has started many wonderful discussions, though as of yet none with Muslims.)
again i say, your freedom will hurt the feeling of others, so is that a right thing to do ???, is it right to insult someone then call it freedom ?
but anyway, you wont reviece a death threat from me, as much as i dislike your picture, but i will just ignore it, and ignore you in the future, thanks for your nice friendly feelings.
finally, its not hard to be a good man, who actually cares for others feelings, its not stupid or cowardly or unmanly to care for others.
again i say, your freedom will hurt the feeling of others, so is that a right thing to do ???, is it right to insult someone then call it freedom ?
but anyway, you wont reviece a death threat from me, as much as i dislike your picture, but i will just ignore it, and ignore you in the future, thanks for your nice friendly feelings.
finally, its not hard to be a good man, who actually cares for others feelings, its not stupid or cowardly or unmanly to care for others.
What if I offend a Stalinist by mocking Stalin, or a Young earth creationist by mocking his laughable ideas? Am I to spend my life in fear of hurting or offending someone? Balls I am.
No one has the right not to be offend. To claim otherwise is just silly.
And you will do well to ignore me, I like to ask questions allot,you prob won't like that.
In any case, before I am ignored, you never confirmed if we should do our upmost to live as Mohammed did.
What if I offend a Stalinist by mocking Stalin, or a Young earth creationist by mocking his laughable ideas? Am I to spend my life in fear of hurting or offending someone? Balls I am.
No one has the right not to be offend. To claim otherwise is just silly.
And you will do well to ignore me, I like to ask questions allot,you prob won't like that.
In any case, before I am ignored, you never confirmed if we should do our upmost to live as Mohammed did.
Yes i think that i should do my upmost to live a moral live as Muhammed (PBUH) did, i wish to be a good man as he was, to treat everyone good, to be gentle and caring and firm and strong all at the same time.
Kathianne
09-04-2010, 03:17 PM
first of all, i mainly rely on the quran, because its the only thing that i am sure about, but the Hadith, i am not so sure about, it may be false, Muhammed (PBUH) may have never said something while we know it now as a Hadith, its 1400 years, and the Hadith have only been passed through generation by talking, people just telling it to each other, so maybe some liar have told a Hadith thats not true, so i learned to believe the Hadith when its only good, and only calling for peace and good deeds.
again you are relying on a site that has been translated by a non muslim, who hates islam, so how can you trust it ???
when you want to know some truth about islam, please talk to a muslim who likes islam, and seeing it as a peaceful religion, dont talk to a terrorist who interpret the religion for his benifits, or a non muslim who hates islam, am i right ???
as i said before, Islam never stated that a man who converts from islam should be killed, and as i said before, Al-Azhar, which is the largest Islamic Institution in the world, has allowed the convertion from Islam to any other religion, and it never called for any penalty, a few years ago, a Muslim women, converted to christianity, and Al-Azhar recognized her as a christian women, she changed her name to Katren, Al-Azhar never objected to it, and the egyptian law allows the converstion from any religion to another.
so whats your argument !!!, a non muslim translator !!!, and a site which calls for hating the islamic religion ???
Actually the citations were given at site. On the other hand, you have better English translations?
Why would one proclaimed Islamicist on a messageboard, be more authoratative than sites I've cited?
Actually the citations were given at site. On the other hand, you have better English translations?
Why would one proclaimed Islamicist on a messageboard, be more authoratative than sites I've cited?
its simple, i like islam, and he hate islam, so who do you think will be more justified to talk about islam ???, i am a muslim and he is not.
and yes i have better translation, just as i said, ask me any question and i will answer, or tell me if you want to read about any subject, and i will provide you with the link to the sites which was written by muslims.
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its like what i do when i talk about israel, i never posted anything written by an arab or a muslim, just articles by christians and jews, who live withing the american or israelian society, because i cant post articles written by arabs, as you will just say that we hate israel and we are its enemy, so its normal for us to speak that way about it.
so if you want to post something about islam, dont copy it from its enemies, just ask me, and i will provide you with the sites which you should read, instead of reading articles which was written by someone who wishes that you and everyone who read his article to hate islam.
know about islam from its followers not its haters, then hate it if i said anything that is in the islamic religion and you dislike it.
Kathianne
09-04-2010, 03:27 PM
its simple, i like islam, and he hate islam, so who do you think will be more justified to talk about islam ???, i am a muslim and he is not.
and yes i have better translation, just as i said, ask me any question and i will answer, or tell me if you want to read about any subject, and i will provide you with the link to the sites which was written by muslims.
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its like what i do when i talk about israel, i never posted anything written by an arab or a muslim, just articles by christians and jews, who live withing the american or israelian society, because i cant post articles written by arabs, as you will just say that we hate israel and we are its enemy, so its normal for us to speak that way about it.
so if you want to post something about islam, dont copy it from its enemies, just ask me, and i will provide you with the sites which you should read, instead of reading articles which was written by someone who wishes that you and everyone who read his article to hate islam.
know about islam from its followers not its haters, then hate it if i said anything that is in the islamic religion and you dislike it.
I consider you a tad biased. :shock: Any site not in line with your thinking you will dismiss, yet want us to take your opinion-as given-as 'gospel.' Pun intended.
I consider you a tad biased. :shock: Any site not in line with your thinking you will dismiss, yet want us to take your opinion-as given-as 'gospel.' Pun intended.
of course not, you can post any site or any article for me to read about politics, but when it comes to religion, i think its my role to tell you about islam, not yours to tell me, i am the muslim here, so you can ask me wutever you think, and when i tell you an answer you dont like, then you can say that islam is bad, but by reading any site, you will read articles for alot of people who hate islam, then whats the point in talking with me ???
if you already want to read and believe the articles which someone who hate islam wrote, then why are we talking now ??
if i say that killing anyone who converts from islam is not allowed, and you bring me a christian who says that its allowed, who will you believe, the muslim or the christian !!!!!!
if you want to believe a christian who talks about islam, they why bother yourself and talk with a muslim in the first place !!!
as i said there is alot of sites that talks about islam, and introduce its teachings to the worlds, but sites like what you are presenting me, are trying to make the wolrd hate the Islamic religion, if you want to read about anything in islam, tell me and i will provide you with the right article.
Yes i think that i should do my upmost to live a moral live as Muhammed (PBUH) did, i wish to be a good man as he was, to treat everyone good, to be gentle and caring and firm and strong all at the same time.
And would this moral life involve
a) Marrying a 6 year old girl?
b) Having sex with a 9 year old girl?
And would this moral life involve
a) Marrying a 6 year old girl?
b) Having sex with a 9 year old girl?
You are talking about Aisha whom some people thinks that she was 6 years old, but that was never confirmed, many sources in the islamic history, have said other things, the estimation was that her age at marriage was 14 - 17 years.
the birthdates at that time was not being registered, so it was hard to determine how old she was at time of marriage, but as i heared from many great islamic figures nowdays, that she was 14 - 17 years old.
You are talking about Aisha whom some people thinks that she was 6 years old, but that was never confirmed, many sources in the islamic history, have said other things, the estimation was that her age at marriage was 14 - 17 years.
the birthdates at that time was not being registered, so it was hard to determine how old she was at time of marriage, but as i heared from many great islamic figures nowdays, that she was 14 - 17 years old.
Mkay.
Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.236 p.153.
1c. "Narrated ‘Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six year old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.60 no.88 p.65
‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3309 p.715-716
‘A’ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said : Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.2 book 5 ch.700 no.2116 p.569
5a. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married her when she was six and had intercourse with her when she was nine. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3255)
I could quote much more but I think you get the idea. But hey, I understand, it's pretty hard to tag it as moral, so instead, rewrite it.
darin
09-04-2010, 05:08 PM
There's something to be said for relative ages....different cultures have tracked that stuff differently.
There's something to be said for relative ages....different cultures have tracked that stuff differently.
Something to be said for them? I disagree, no matter the 'culture' sex with a 9 year old can never be justified, and now only does it apear to be okay it Mohammeds case, but given he is something to aspire to, then a 6 year old wife should be, er, an aspiration?
jimnyc
09-04-2010, 05:22 PM
Yes i think that i should do my upmost to live a moral live as Muhammed (PBUH) did, i wish to be a good man as he was, to treat everyone good, to be gentle and caring and firm and strong all at the same time.
Sure, you just completely blow off sites that aren't written by your beloved terroris... I mean muslims, even though there are actual confirmed stories on the pages and talk from actual muslims and leaders.
muhammed was nothing more than a fear mongering pedophile.
Mkay.
I could quote much more but I think you get the idea. But hey, I understand, it's pretty hard to tag it as moral, so instead, rewrite it.
as i said, there are sources that said that she was 9, but there are also other sources that said that she was 13 and others said 14 and others said 17..
it was told that Asmaa the older sister of Aisha, was born 27 years before prophet Muhammed (PBUH) left Mecca to Al Madina, and Aisha was 10 years younger than Asmaa, so Aisha was 17 years old at the time of intercourse, because it happened just before the prophet left Mecca.
you can get your words from many sources, and i can get mine from other sources, but its all speculations, because we can never be sure about the info in history books.
anyway, 9 is considered too early in our culture nowdays, but it was not that young in those days.
Osama Bin Zyd, was 14 years old when he joined the army and had his first battle, and he was 20 years old when he lead the islamic army to defeat the Romans.
just something i copied from a site:
<BIG><BIG><BIG><BIG><BIG>1-</BIG></BIG> Quick notes about girls back then:</BIG></BIG></BIG>
<SMALL>From </SMALL>http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm (http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm):
<SMALL></SMALL>
<SMALL>First of all, it is important to know:</SMALL>
Aisha's parents were the ones who married her to our Prophet, and that no Muslim or even pagan objected to the marriage because it was widely practiced. And even until today in 3rd world countries (Muslims and non-Muslims), little girls as young as 9 or 10 do get married. Anyway, the reason no one objected was to the Prophet's marriage was:<SMALL></SMALL>
People used to have very short life-spans in Arabia. They used to live between 40 to 60 years maximum. So it was only normal and natural for girls to be married off at ages 9 or 10 or similar.
<SMALL>Marriage for young girls was widely practiced among Arabs back then, and even today in many third-world non-Muslim and Muslim countries. See the following examples: [1 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/gypsy_girl.htm)] [2 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/thai_girl.htm)] [3 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm#bible_prophets)] [4 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm#mary_age)] [5 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm#osama_bin_zaid)] [6 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm#middle_eastern_culture)] [7 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm#her_parents)], etc...</SMALL>
It is important to know that girls during the Biblical and Islamic days used to be married off at young ages when they either had their first periods, or their breasts start showing off. In other words, when they turn into "women", then they get married off. It was quite different for men on the other hand, because physical power and the ability of living an independent life had always been and will always be a mandatory requirement for men to have in life. So men waited much longer than women in terms of getting married. The guy had to develop both his body and mind before he was ready for marriage.
That is why you see girls as young as 9 or 10 were married to men as old as 30 or even older. The culture back then and in many third world countries today (NON-MUSLIM ONES TOO) is quite different than what you live in today.
--------------------------------------------------------------
you are talking about a subject which is considered a crime in our culture now and inappropriate, but you dont know how the things were at that time, we were not alive back then, and we will never know the culture.
Something to be said for them? I disagree, no matter the 'culture' sex with a 9 year old can never be justified, and now only does it apear to be okay it Mohammeds case, but given he is something to aspire to, then a 6 year old wife should be, er, an aspiration?
even in the quotes you mentioned, when she was 6 years old, she was still living in her parents house, so it does not matter if she was called a wife or not, if you want to talk, then talk about the situation when she is 9 years old, not about her situation when she was 6 years old because during those 3 years, she live with her parents as your sources say.
jimnyc
09-04-2010, 07:12 PM
even in the quotes you mentioned, when she was 6 years old, she was still living in her parents house, so it does not matter if she was called a wife or not, if you want to talk, then talk about the situation when she is 9 years old, not about her situation when she was 6 years old because during those 3 years, she live with her parents as your sources say.
So we should just ignore the fact that the pedophile entered into a marriage with a 6 year old just because he was kind enough to let her live with her parents until she was old enough to understand sexual relations at a whopping age of 9?
You want to twist anything that puts islam in a negative light. You want to dismiss anything written by non-muslims, even if their writings come with citations and absolute proof.
muslims treat their women as subservient, this I have seen with my own eyes and have been told as much by MANY current muslims, even though they tried to explain like you WHY a woman should be subservient and made it sound rosy.
mohammed was a pedophile and now all muslims want to aspire to follow in his likeness. mind boggling.
How old was Aisha when she married the Prophet Muhammad? Did Prophet Muhammad marry a 9 year old?
The Quran was written during the time of Prophet Muhammad and its 100%
authentic! Nowhere in The Quran is it mentioned about the Prophet's
marriage!
But its mentioned in the Hadiths!
BUT LETS SEE WHAT THESE HADITHS SAY The Prophet married Aisha 1 year after Hijrah! This is a known fact!
POINT 1
According to Sahih Bukhari (which is the most authentic) of the hadiths!
According to Sahih Bukhari, Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th Chapter of the Quran, was revealed, "I was a young girl"
The 54th surah of The Quran was revealed nine years before Hijrah. So Aisha was a young girl (jariyah), and not an infant (sibyah) at that time!
THE PROPHET MARRIED AISHA ONE YEAR AFTER HIJRAH! SO NOW WE KNOW SHE WAS A YOUNG GIRL, 9 YEARS BEFORE HIJRAH!
SO EVEN IF FOR EXAMPLE SHE WAS 7 YEARS OLD WHEN SHE SAID "I WAS A YOUNG GIRL", THEN SHE MARRIED THE PROPHET 10 YEARS AFTER THAT!
WHICH MEANS SHE WAS OVER 17 YEARS OLD WHEN THE PROPHET MARRIED HER!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POINT 2
According to a number of narratives, Aisha accompanied the Muslims in the Battle of Badr and Uhud. It was usual for women to accompany men in battle so they can help in looking after the wounded.
It was a strict rule that noone under the age of 15 was allowed to accompany anyone in battle!
BATTLE OF BADR WAS 2 YEARS AFTER HIJRAH AND BATTLE OF UHUD WAS 3 YEARS AFTER HIJRAH!
REMEMBER PROPHET MUHAMMAD MARRIED HER 1 YEAR AFTER HIJRAH!
WHICH MEANS SHE COULD NEVER HAVE BEEN 9 YEARS OLD WHEN THE PROPHET MARRIED HER!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POINT 3
It is a known fact that the Asma, (the elder sister of Aisha) was 10 years older than Aisha. It is reported that Asma died 73 years after Hijrah when she was 100 years old!
Now, Obviously if Asma was 100 years old 73 years after Hijrah, then Asma should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of Hijrah!
If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at Hijrah, then Aisha would be 17 or 18 years old at Hijrah!
REMEMBER PROPHET MUHAMMAD MARRIED AISHA 1 YEAR AFTER HIJRAH!
SO THAT MEANS AISHA WAS 18 OR 19 YEARS OLD WHEN SHE GOT MARRIED!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POINT 4
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (father of Aisha) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during pre Islamic period!
If Aisha was born before in the Pre Islamic period, then she would be more than 13 years old during Hijrah!
REMEMBER PROPHET MARRIED HER 1 YEAR AFTER HIJRAH, WHICH MEANS SHE WOULD BE MORE THAT 14 YEARS OLD DURING THE TIME OF MARRIAGE!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POINT 5
According to Ibn Hisham, Aisha accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab. Umar ibn Khattab accepted Islam roughly 7 years before Hijrah!
Obviously, she would have been a young girl when she accpeted Islam!
If you add 7 years to a young girl!
You can think for yourselves!
REMEMBER PROPHET MARRIED HER 1 YEAR AFTER HIJRAH!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POINT 6
According to Ibn Hajar, Fathima (daughter of Prophet) was 5 years older than Aisha!
Fathima was born more than 5 years before Muhammad was a Prophet!
That means Fathima was born more than 19 years before Hijrah!
PROPHET MARRIED AISHA ONE YEAR AFTER HIJRAH!
SO THIS AGAIN PROVES AISHA WAS OVER 15 YEARS OLD WHEN THE PROPHET MARRIED HER!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALL THIS EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT AISHA WAS NOT 9 YEARS OLD WHEN THE PROPHET MARRIED HER!
BUT WHERE DOES IT SAY SHE WAS 9 YEARS OLD?
The narratives saying Aisha was 9 years old at the time of marriage, are reported only by a man named Hisham ibn Urwah reporting from what he heard from his father!
If Hisham ibn Urwah was right then others would have also reported but Hisham ibn Urwah is the only person to report this!
Hisham ibn Urwah lived in Medinah but its very fishy because there were so many others in Medinah including the Jews!
Even the Jews did not report any such thing!
If Prophet had married a 9 year old, obviously the Jews would have reported or made a fuss because as we know Jews always wanted to destroy Islam!
All the narratives saying Prophet Muhammad married a 9 year old have been reported from Iraq!
Hisham ibn Urwah moved to Iraq later and these narratives come from Iraq! Hisham moved to Iraq when he was 71 years old!
We know Iraq was influenced by Shias! Shia Muslims don't like the Prophet!
We don't know if the narratives of Hisham ibn Urwah were influenced by them!
The narratives of Hisham ibn Urwah where he says Aisha was 9 years old when she married the Prophet have all come from Iraq!
WHAT DO OTHERS SAY ABOUT HISHAM IBN URWAH?
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, a man who was one of the most well known people on the life and reliability of the narratives of the traditions of the Prophet!
What did he have to say about Hisham ibn Urwah's narrations?
According to Yaqub ibn Shaibah he said: "narratives reported by Hisham which are reported through the people of Iraq are unreliable!
It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham ibn Urwah that were reported through people of Iraq (Volume 11, page 48- 51)
Mizanu'l-ai 'tidal, another person on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports that Hisham ibn Urwah's memory suffered quite badly when he was old! (Volume 4, page 301-302)
IT IS A PROVEN FACT THAT AISHA WAS NOT 9 YEARS OLD WHEN SHE MARRIED THE PROPHET BUT THE ENEMIES OF ISLAM KNOW THIS BUT THEY CONTINUE TO SLANDER OUR PROPHET!
THIS ANSWER HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ENEMIES OF ISLAM YEARS AGO, BUT THEY CONTINUE TO SLANDER A GREAT PROPHET!
jimnyc
09-04-2010, 07:51 PM
And your link to your source for the above crap?
Sweetchuck
09-04-2010, 07:55 PM
I don't care to learn much more than I know about Islam.
However a resource like this that would show Islam what other faiths are about might teach Islam a little much-needed tolerance.
And your link to your source for the above crap?
Source (http://www.scribd.com/doc/16141277/Did-Prophet-Muhammad-really-marry-a-9-year-old-This-is-a-lie-spread-about-Our-Beloved-Prophet)
as i said, there are sources that said that she was 9, but there are also other sources that said that she was 13 and others said 14 and others said 17..
it was told that Asmaa the older sister of Aisha, was born 27 years before prophet Muhammed (PBUH) left Mecca to Al Madina, and Aisha was 10 years younger than Asmaa, so Aisha was 17 years old at the time of intercourse, because it happened just before the prophet left Mecca.
you can get your words from many sources, and i can get mine from other sources, but its all speculations, because we can never be sure about the info in history books.
anyway, 9 is considered too early in our culture nowdays, but it was not that young in those days.
Osama Bin Zyd, was 14 years old when he joined the army and had his first battle, and he was 20 years old when he lead the islamic army to defeat the Romans.
just something i copied from a site:
<BIG><BIG><BIG><BIG><BIG>1-</BIG></BIG> Quick notes about girls back then:</BIG></BIG></BIG>
<SMALL>From </SMALL>http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm (http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm):
<SMALL></SMALL>
<SMALL>First of all, it is important to know:</SMALL>
Aisha's parents were the ones who married her to our Prophet, and that no Muslim or even pagan objected to the marriage because it was widely practiced. And even until today in 3rd world countries (Muslims and non-Muslims), little girls as young as 9 or 10 do get married. Anyway, the reason no one objected was to the Prophet's marriage was:<SMALL></SMALL>
People used to have very short life-spans in Arabia. They used to live between 40 to 60 years maximum. So it was only normal and natural for girls to be married off at ages 9 or 10 or similar.
<SMALL>Marriage for young girls was widely practiced among Arabs back then, and even today in many third-world non-Muslim and Muslim countries. See the following examples: [1 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/gypsy_girl.htm)] [2 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/thai_girl.htm)] [3 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm#bible_prophets)] [4 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm#mary_age)] [5 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm#osama_bin_zaid)] [6 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm#middle_eastern_culture)] [7 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm#her_parents)], etc...</SMALL>
It is important to know that girls during the Biblical and Islamic days used to be married off at young ages when they either had their first periods, or their breasts start showing off. In other words, when they turn into "women", then they get married off. It was quite different for men on the other hand, because physical power and the ability of living an independent life had always been and will always be a mandatory requirement for men to have in life. So men waited much longer than women in terms of getting married. The guy had to develop both his body and mind before he was ready for marriage.
That is why you see girls as young as 9 or 10 were married to men as old as 30 or even older. The culture back then and in many third world countries today (NON-MUSLIM ONES TOO) is quite different than what you live in today.
--------------------------------------------------------------
you are talking about a subject which is considered a crime in our culture now and inappropriate, but you dont know how the things were at that time, we were not alive back then, and we will never know the culture.
LAWL.
Firstly 'some say this, some say that' I think it's a pretty damn important issue, and one that would of been worthy of note. I guess Mohammed didn't think so.
BUT the funniest bit is blaming the 'culture back then' you mean the great Mohammed was only as moral as his cultural surroundings? Which means you can live a more moral life than Mohammed by *not* living like him. But insteading by living under modern, liberal, secular laws.
even in the quotes you mentioned, when she was 6 years old, she was still living in her parents house, so it does not matter if she was called a wife or not, if you want to talk, then talk about the situation when she is 9 years old, not about her situation when she was 6 years old because during those 3 years, she live with her parents as your sources say.
So you think it's not o ly fine, but moral, for me to go out, and chose a 6 year oldwife to bind to me for life aslong as she can live with mummy ans daddy?
jimnyc
09-05-2010, 09:01 AM
Source (http://www.scribd.com/doc/16141277/Did-Prophet-Muhammad-really-marry-a-9-year-old-This-is-a-lie-spread-about-Our-Beloved-Prophet)
So you dismiss all of our links as being biased, even though they all have citations as proof, and in return you toss up to us this garbage? It's not a source, it's simply a retarded document someone wrote and popped on scribd.
Women are abused in Islam - FACT - and none of your ramblings will take away the thousands of stories of abuse, and women being subservient to men as told by your own leaders and books. And forget the poor women who happen to live under shariah law, those filthy muslims don't give the women a chance at all.
6,9,12,14,17 - make up your mind about your pedophile hero! You can't even decide the age for sure but already admitted he married her when she was 6 because at the time she 'only lived with her parents'. I call that filth any way you type it. Maybe he married a baby because he was one himself? LOL
http://i55.tinypic.com/2jaalb8.jpg
So you dismiss all of our links as being biased, even though they all have citations as proof, and in return you toss up to us this garbage? It's not a source, it's simply a retarded document someone wrote and popped on scribd.
Women are abused in Islam - FACT - and none of your ramblings will take away the thousands of stories of abuse, and women being subservient to men as told by your own leaders and books. And forget the poor women who happen to live under shariah law, those filthy muslims don't give the women a chance at all.
6,9,12,14,17 - make up your mind about your pedophile hero! You can't even decide the age for sure but already admitted he married her when she was 6 because at the time she 'only lived with her parents'. I call that filth any way you type it. Maybe he married a baby because he was one himself? LOL
i did not admit that he married her when she was 6, i only said that it does not matter, because she was still living with her parent as your source say.
and as my sources says, she married when she was 14 - 19 years old, not 9.
so what makes your source any more credible than mine ?????
we can quote thousands of people and sources and we will enter a circle that has no end, because we will never be sure of her age at marriage.
and if you want to engage in a discussion, please be respectful to the other side, and stop your insults, everyone is just trying to insult Muhammed (PBUH) while we muslims never insulted jesus or Moses, our religion tells us to respect all the prophets, while all you people do is posting cartoon pictures and insults.
Kathianne
09-05-2010, 10:55 AM
of course not, you can post any site or any article for me to read about politics, but when it comes to religion, i think its my role to tell you about islam, not yours to tell me, i am the muslim here, so you can ask me wutever you think, and when i tell you an answer you dont like, then you can say that islam is bad, but by reading any site, you will read articles for alot of people who hate islam, then whats the point in talking with me ???
if you already want to read and believe the articles which someone who hate islam wrote, then why are we talking now ??
if i say that killing anyone who converts from islam is not allowed, and you bring me a christian who says that its allowed, who will you believe, the muslim or the christian !!!!!!
if you want to believe a christian who talks about islam, they why bother yourself and talk with a muslim in the first place !!!
as i said there is alot of sites that talks about islam, and introduce its teachings to the worlds, but sites like what you are presenting me, are trying to make the wolrd hate the Islamic religion, if you want to read about anything in islam, tell me and i will provide you with the right article.
Ah but that's the whole enchilada with Islam, there is no light between politics and religion.
Trigg
09-05-2010, 07:17 PM
Why are there still a lot of places where women are treated like 2nd class citizens?
Treating a woman as inferior human being to men is not related to islam, its a culture that human have been practicing through history, in the races, in the last centuries this kind of treatment have nearly vanished in some places, and didnt in other places, but its certainly its not like what its was 500 hundred years ago when women was being sold in slave markets.
what islam teaches us is to repect our women, and treat them gently, never to abuse them, because in our religion, the woman is the mother, and the mother is the most respected human being over all, in our concept, the paradise can only be achieved by treating our mothers in a good manner.
.
Gently?????
If this is considered gently in a muslim country than give me christianity anyday.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.260c2246a5c77075ff7ab46b021e923 9.371&show_article=1
Sakineh Mohammadi-Ashtiani, an Iranian woman sentenced to death by stoning for adultery, has also been sentenced to 99 lashes for a photo published of her without a headscarf, according to her son.
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