View Full Version : Eternal Sin
Came across this passage in Mark 3:29, and ofcourse without the skip of a beat I blasphemed against the holy spirit ^_^
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin"
but I was just wondering, for the christians on the board, where exactly does the idea of eternal sin slot into the god is all forgiving?
darin
08-12-2010, 07:26 PM
Why do you think God is all-forgiving?
Why do you think God is all-forgiving?
I'm told all the time that no matter how great my sins all I need to do is pray for forgiveness, God will forgive me my sins because Jesus has already died for them.
Is that false?
darin
08-13-2010, 08:02 AM
Forgiveness and Justice aren't linked.
See, Christians believe Satan/Lucifer/Barack used to be an angel - the top Angel in heaven. Lucifer plotted against God, and got jealous/prideful and he was kicked out of heaven. If God were "all-forgiving" there's be no Devil - no evil. Right?
You already are forgiven, whether you ask for it or not. Because nobody can reach consensus on what "blasphemy" is, I can almost guaranty you haven't done it. :)
HogTrash
08-13-2010, 10:25 AM
I'm told all the time that no matter how great my sins all I need to do is pray for forgiveness, God will forgive me my sins because Jesus has already died for them.
Is that false?Why would an atheist be so concerned about God's forgiveness and Christian beliefs?
Are you possibly considering turning your life over to God and converting to Christianity?
:bow3:
Forgiveness and Justice aren't linked.
See, Christians believe Satan/Lucifer/Barack used to be an angel - the top Angel in heaven. Lucifer plotted against God, and got jealous/prideful and he was kicked out of heaven. If God were "all-forgiving" there's be no Devil - no evil. Right?
You already are forgiven, whether you ask for it or not. Because nobody can reach consensus on what "blasphemy" is, I can almost guaranty you haven't done it. :)
That seems at odds with what is written in mark, no? You say I am (present tense) already forgiven, and yet it says blaspheme against the holy ghost and you will (future tense) not be forgiven.
Also, you would of thought god would have been a little more specific about what blasphemy is, so there is no doubt when you commit an eternal sin, just sayin'
darin
08-13-2010, 11:45 AM
There is no time far as God is concerned. Your forgiveness isn't dependant upon your aknowledgement.
See, Christians believe Satan/Lucifer/Barack used to be an angel - the top Angel in heaven. Lucifer plotted against God, and got jealous/prideful and he was kicked out of heaven. If God were "all-forgiving" there's be no Devil - no evil. Right?
Not all of us believe that..
PostmodernProphet
08-13-2010, 12:38 PM
Came across this passage in Mark 3:29, and ofcourse without the skip of a beat I blasphemed against the holy spirit ^_^
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin"
but I was just wondering, for the christians on the board, where exactly does the idea of eternal sin slot into the god is all forgiving?
the understanding I have of the passage is that when the Holy Spirit comes knocking at your door and says "Hey".....and you say, "get the fuck away from my door"......then you've pretty much screwed the pooch......
the understanding I have of the passage is that when the Holy Spirit comes knocking at your door and says "Hey".....and you say, "get the fuck away from my door"......then you've pretty much screwed the pooch......
How do you arrive at that, the whole passage;
*20Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
*22And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub[c]! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
*23So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
*30He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."
looks petty cut and dry to me.
How do you arrive at that, the whole passage;
looks petty cut and dry to me.
Noir:
http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1997/97march2.html
Noir:
http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1997/97march2.html
You think that gives any clear answers? I certainly don't.
And towards the end there's this wee list...
Here's what we don't know about this sin:
1. Is this sin a one-time act or repeated or lifelong rejection of Christ?
2. Can this sin be committed today?
3. Was Jesus telling people that they had already committed this sin, or was He warning them that they might be in danger of committing it?
As I said earlier, so much uncertianty about somthing that would be so important if true is (if nothing else) pretty sloppy by Jeaus, no?
PostmodernProphet
08-13-2010, 08:19 PM
How do you arrive at that, the whole passage;
looks petty cut and dry to me.
because they knew in their hearts that what they said was not true...
they had been given undeniable evidence that he was from YHWH......the sort of thing agnostics are fond of saying would cause them to believe......yet the "teachers of the law" were trying to discredit him by telling the public that what they had seen was not true....they were telling the people that the evidence YHWH had provided was a lie.....when YHWH acts to bring about belief it is an unforgivable sin to reject it as untrue....
PostmodernProphet
08-13-2010, 08:27 PM
1. Is this sin a one-time act or repeated or lifelong rejection of Christ?
what would you speculate?.....let's say we have two agnostics.....They both say "I'm not going to believe in a god unless I have proof"....
ten thousand things occur around them that many would accept as adequate proof of a deity....yet they remains adamant..."I have not been convinced"....
one day, one of them decides "I have been wrong in looking for proof......I accept God"
the other does not....
judgment day arrives......do you think, based on what you know of Christianity, that YHWH is going to treat them both the same?.....
if you argue that he will, then you contradict everything else the scriptures say about salvation.....just to sustain one possible interpretation of the text.....would that be logical?.......
because they knew in their hearts that what they said was not true...
they had been given undeniable evidence that he was from YHWH......the sort of thing agnostics are fond of saying would cause them to believe......yet the "teachers of the law" were trying to discredit him by telling the public that what they had seen was not true....they were telling the people that the evidence YHWH had provided was a lie.....when YHWH acts to bring about belief it is an unforgivable sin to reject it as untrue....
Okay, so if a guy said to you that he was the second coming of Christ, and performed a mirical before your eyes, you would think that it is an unforgivable sin to reject him as the second coming of Christ?
PostmodernProphet
08-15-2010, 06:41 AM
Okay, so if a guy said to you that he was the second coming of Christ, and performed a mirical before your eyes, you would think that it is an unforgivable sin to reject him as the second coming of Christ?
not the issue.....if I knew that the guy WAS the second coming of Christ and I chose to tell everyone he WASN'T......the law givers knew he wasn't casting out demons because he was empowered by Satan, but that is what they told the people around them.....they were saying that a revelation from God was a lie.....
so, using your example......guy says he's the second coming of Christ.....graves are opening up and the dead are walking.....and I say, "it's all a joke, folks......they weren't really dead, they've all just been buried prematurely and hiding under ground for the last twenty years......don't pay any attention to him"..........yeah, I would say that's the same type of unforgivable sin.....
not the issue.....if I knew that the guy WAS the second coming of Christ and I chose to tell everyone he WASN'T......the law givers knew he wasn't casting out demons because he was empowered by Satan, but that is what they told the people around them.....they were saying that a revelation from God was a lie.....
so, using your example......guy says he's the second coming of Christ.....graves are opening up and the dead are walking.....and I say, "it's all a joke, folks......they weren't really dead, they've all just been buried prematurely and hiding under ground for the last twenty years......don't pay any attention to him"..........yeah, I would say that's the same type of unforgivable sin.....
Your talking about the mass grave walk, for which there is no record at all except for the bible? The one that no one else at the time thought interesting enough to note down?
Let's say he gets a man to mark the tip of a bullet, and another to mark the case, and another to fire it at his face, and he catches the tip in his mouth and tge tip marks match the unique casing marks. He does this infront of a live studio audience, with cameras recording from many angles and there is a clear line painted of the floor which he can never cross, meaning it's impossible for him to be in contact with anyone who marks the bullets. Good enough for you? Or would you want more? What if he also predicted all 6 of the lottery numbers that week and got them all right, and if he was able to tell you your medical history just by feeling the air around your body, and if he then went into someones house, got them to go to another room out of all contact and asked them to draw several pictures on different sheets of card and he would do the same, and he got them all the same with astonishing detail. Then he took a 6 shooter revlover with 5 empty slots and one loaded with a live bullet (again marked uniqly by strangers) and live on TV chose with slots he would pull the trigger to while holding the gun against his head, and which one he would fire into a nearby sandbag, he chose the 5 empty slots, fired the live round into the bag, and the markings matched.
Then he said 'i've done enough, believe in me or be guilty of an eternal sin' would you believe in him/her?
PostmodernProphet
08-15-2010, 04:59 PM
Your talking about the mass grave walk, for which there is no record at all except for the bible? The one that no one else at the time thought interesting enough to note down?
um, actually, as I said in my post, I was talking about the second coming of Christ......which is the scenario you suggested...
Let's say he gets a man to mark the tip of a bullet, and another to mark the case, and another to fire it at his face, and he catches the tip in his mouth and tge tip marks match the unique casing marks. He does this infront of a live studio audience, with cameras recording from many angles and there is a clear line painted of the floor which he can never cross, meaning it's impossible for him to be in contact with anyone who marks the bullets. Good enough for you? Or would you want more? What if he also predicted all 6 of the lottery numbers that week and got them all right, and if he was able to tell you your medical history just by feeling the air around your body, and if he then went into someones house, got them to go to another room out of all contact and asked them to draw several pictures on different sheets of card and he would do the same, and he got them all the same with astonishing detail. Then he took a 6 shooter revlover with 5 empty slots and one loaded with a live bullet (again marked uniqly by strangers) and live on TV chose with slots he would pull the trigger to while holding the gun against his head, and which one he would fire into a nearby sandbag, he chose the 5 empty slots, fired the live round into the bag, and the markings matched.
I think you're missing the point here......if he did the bullet thing, and I knew it had actually happened, and I lied about it and said it was a trick, then we would have a parallel to the Jewish lawgivers denying the evidence of the Holy Spirit....
PostmodernProphet
08-15-2010, 05:07 PM
Then he said 'i've done enough, believe in me or be guilty of an eternal sin' would you believe in him/her?
if I have received satisfactory proof, but I continue to deny, then I have blasphemed against the spirit.....whether any of your scenarios constitutes satisfactory proof is an unnecessary question.....
um, actually, as I said in my post, I was talking about the second coming of Christ......which is the scenario you suggested...
I think you're missing the point here......if he did the bullet thing, and I knew it had actually happened, and I lied about it and said it was a trick, then we would have a parallel to the Jewish lawgivers denying the evidence of the Holy Spirit....
Whoops, got a bit lost there lol, sorry bout that.
However, as for the second part, you may be interested to know that Penn and Teller did exactly that (YouTube 'Penn & Teller bullet catch' to watch it) and you can watch it again and again if you like, can you explain what they did? If not, then imagine that you are not a well educated man of the 21st Century, but rather a Bronze age peasants. If they say what Penn and Teller did, and they declared themselves Gods for doing it, would you say those people would be commuting a sin by not accepting Penn and Teller as devine?
Infact, if Penn said he was devine, and performed the bullet Catch miricles before your very eyes, would you have any reason to claim he isn't?
if I have received satisfactory proof, but I continue to deny, then I have blasphemed against the spirit.....whether any of your scenarios constitutes satisfactory proof is an unnecessary question.....
Why is it unnecessary?
PostmodernProphet
08-15-2010, 09:04 PM
Why is it unnecessary?
can you explain what they did?
um no, but I assume they could.....again that isn't the point.....you're arguing about whether people can be fooled into believing, and I'm trying to explain the theological consequences of denying deity when you KNOW it's deity....
I think it may be similar to you knowing what I am saying, but trying to pretend I'm arguing something different......I consider it unforgivable too....
I deed you assume they could, but what if making that assumption where to fly in the face if them saying you could not?
Here's tge vid - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv2deRZuMIk&feature=youtube_gdata
As I said, if someone claimed they where devine and did that, aswell as the iter things I mentioned, would that not be proof enough? And yet we know (i.e. Your assumption) that Penn and Teller are not devine, or atleast if they are they have decided to keep it quiet to just make money from their super human abilities.
It is a trick that defies all reasonable explination (though that is nit to say there is not one) but if the person performing it tells you there is no explination because they are devine, are you not bound to having to believe them, or be guilty of this sin?
PostmodernProphet
08-16-2010, 07:10 AM
As I said, if someone claimed they where devine and did that, aswell as the iter things I mentioned, would that not be proof enough?
uh, no......of course not....but again, what does that have to do with the question.......the issue isn't "how much proof is enough".........the issue is "denying it when you know it's true"....
are you going somewhere in particular with this argument?.....
uh, no......of course not....but again, what does that have to do with the question.......the issue isn't "how much proof is enough".........the issue is "denying it when you know it's true"....
are you going somewhere in particular with this argument?.....
The point being at what point would they undeniably be Christ and thus an eternal sin to deny.
PostmodernProphet
08-16-2010, 10:21 AM
The point being at what point would they undeniably be Christ and thus an eternal sin to deny.
???....the point which I have consistently stated since my first post.....the point at which they know it to be true but continue to deny it....
you keep wanting to question "when would they know".......doesn't matter.....it wouldn't be a sin against the Spirit if they didn't.....it is if they do......
darin
08-16-2010, 11:51 AM
I'm convinced Noir doesn't WANT any answers with this thread; and any answers or information will be ignored because his point is to ridicule - not understand or learn.
???....the point which I have consistently stated since my first post.....the point at which they know it to be true but continue to deny it....
you keep wanting to question "when would they know".......doesn't matter.....it wouldn't be a sin against the Spirit if they didn't.....it is if they do......
I have been doing much looking on different forums and sites, and most tend to centre around this kind of conclusion
The situation was this: The teachers of the Law came down from Jerusalem and publicly accused Jesus of being in league with Satan, explaining His exorcisms that way. Why did they accuse Him of that? After all, the Pharisees themselves cast out demons all the time, so Jesus’ success at exorcism was not at issue. However, when Jesus did conduct an exorcism, He never invoked God! That led the spectators to wonder where He got the authority to pull it off. Some people correctly deduced that Jesus possessed the personal authority to do it, and were amazed. The learned Pharisees who witnessed the exorcisms refused to come to that conclusion, because that would result in Jesus having the authority of God and they did not want to accept that. So they decided that Jesus must have mumbled the invocation. Since the only reason for mumbling would be to conceal an invocation of Satan, that is what they accused Him of in public.
Jesus’ rebuttal went as follows: Satan can’t be casting out Satan, because that is absurd; he would be defeating himself. It doesn’t make any sense. Furthermore, Jesus couldn’t rob Satan of his demons and his victories unless He had more power than Satan did. They didn’t suppose that Satan would give up without a fight, did they?
If it is not by the power of Satan that Jesus casts out demons, then it must be by the power of the Holy Spirit, because that is the only other alternative. If Jesus does not invoke that power, the implication is that He already possesses it as a personal prerogative. If Jesus is casting out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit, but the Pharisees slander the Holy Spirit by trying to make people think the Holy Spirit is Satan, then they are clearly blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.
So in my opinion, the unforgivable sin, the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, consists in misusing one’s training and education in the Scriptures to publicly and knowingly slander the Holy Spirit by misleading people into thinking that He is Satan. Clearly no one who does this can be forgiven, because it is through the Holy Spirit that we are forgiven. Also, no one who thinks that the Holy Spirit is Satan will permit himself to be guided by Him or filled with Him or given gifts by Him. So just as pulling the main breaker in your house means that you can never receive electricity, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit means that you can never receive forgiveness, because it turns off the tap through which forgiveness flows!
Would you agree with this?
I'm convinced Noir doesn't WANT any answers with this thread; and any answers or information will be ignored because his point is to ridicule - not understand or learn.
I don't see where I have ridiculed, but if you say so.
PostmodernProphet
08-16-2010, 01:48 PM
Would you agree with this?
while there is nothing clearly undoctrinal about anything he said, I don't think it quite captures the concept of the eternal sin....
first of all, I don't think the Pharisees were confused by any mumbling.....I think they were aware that Jesus was casting out demons by his own authority and that he was doing so BECAUSE he and the Spirit were one.....and I think Jesus was aware of their awareness.....I believe this is why his following comment was that rejecting him despite that awareness was an unforgivable act.....this was a specific statement to one or more law givers who were in fact, at that moment, committing the unforgivable act......basically, he was saying to them, if you reject me now, in the face of this, there is no turning back.....
secondly, I dislike the interpretation, because it seems to say that only those who actively mislead others about the Christ can be committing the eternal sin.....
I think that at some point in every person's life God reaches out and presents them with a gift of the Spirit....something which some feel sufficient to bring them to accept God and which others turn their backs on.......denying God when he reaches out specifically for you IS the eternal sin.....
while there is nothing clearly undoctrinal about anything he said, I don't think it quite captures the concept of the eternal sin....
first of all, I don't think the Pharisees were confused by any mumbling.....I think they were aware that Jesus was casting out demons by his own authority and that he was doing so BECAUSE he and the Spirit were one.....and I think Jesus was aware of their awareness.....I believe this is why his following comment was that rejecting him despite that awareness was an unforgivable act.....this was a specific statement to one or more law givers who were in fact, at that moment, committing the unforgivable act......basically, he was saying to them, if you reject me now, in the face of this, there is no turning back.....
secondly, I dislike the interpretation, because it seems to say that only those who actively mislead others about the Christ can be committing the eternal sin.....
I think that at some point in every person's life God reaches out and presents them with a gift of the Spirit....something which some feel sufficient to bring them to accept God and which others turn their backs on.......denying God when he reaches out specifically for you IS the eternal sin.....
From the bold in the second paragraph, is there any basis for that other than your personal interpretation of what you think Jesus thought the law makers knew? (seems rather convoluted don't you think?)
PostmodernProphet
08-16-2010, 07:20 PM
Okay, so if a guy said to you that he was the second coming of Christ, and performed a mirical before your eyes, you would think that it is an unforgivable sin to reject him as the second coming of Christ?
I don't know.....does he have a background chorus of a zillion angels and is he coming out of the clouds with a tongue like a giant sword?......
PostmodernProphet
08-16-2010, 07:21 PM
(seems rather convoluted don't you think?)
/scratches head....actually no....I think trying to turn it into something else would be convoluted....seems pretty straight forward to me......
PostmodernProphet
08-16-2010, 07:35 PM
From the bold in the second paragraph, is there any basis for that other than your personal interpretation of what you think Jesus thought the law makers knew? (seems rather convoluted don't you think?)
yeah, there's the word of God....besides the passages already looked at there is this from Hebrews 10:29 "How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
John Calvin describes it..."I say, therefore, that he sins against the Holy Spirit who, while so constrained by the power of divine truth that he cannot plead ignorance, yet deliberately resists, and that merely for the sake of resisting."
Even the Mormons agree....
"After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it."
are we seeing any consistencies here?.....
yeah, there's the word of God....besides the passages already looked at there is this from Hebrews 10:29 "How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
John Calvin describes it..."I say, therefore, that he sins against the Holy Spirit who, while so constrained by the power of divine truth that he cannot plead ignorance, yet deliberately resists, and that merely for the sake of resisting."
Even the Mormons agree....
"After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it."
are we seeing any consistencies here?.....
I was not asking about the eternal Sin, but rather, how you *know* what Jesus thought the LawMakers knew. Are you just assuming you have that knowledge?
I don't know.....does he have a background chorus of a zillion angels and is he coming out of the clouds with a tongue like a giant sword?......
Maybe,
or maybe he is just a humble middle eastern man, who performs a few unexplainable feats, preaches the word of God, and asks those who should believe in him, do believe in him.
Would that be enough for you? Or does your god have to go out of it's way with zillions of angels?
The irony of this all is, were is the requirment for belief?
I mean, if I saw some bloke floatig through the sky, will zillions of angels and a sword of flames and so forth, I would no doubt drop to my knees, accept them as my god, and be forgiven and get to heaven. As would anyone else who is sane.
The point being I do not have to have any faith in them being a god, because the god has proven it to me.
Really the only people who lose out are those who have already died, and they can't wittness such an event.
Quite a thinker, no?
HogTrash
08-16-2010, 09:16 PM
Maybe,
or maybe he is just a humble middle eastern man, who performs a few unexplainable feats, preaches the word of God, and asks those who should believe in him, do believe in him.
Would that be enough for you? Or does your god have to go out of it's way with zillions of angels?
The irony of this all is, were is the requirment for belief?
I mean, if I saw some bloke floatig through the sky, will zillions of angels and a sword of flames and so forth, I would no doubt drop to my knees, accept them as my god, and be forgiven and get to heaven. As would anyone else who is sane.
The point being I do not have to have any faith in them being a god, because the god has proven it to me.
Really the only people who lose out are those who have already died, and they can't wittness such an event.
Quite a thinker, no?What would have to happen to make you believe in God ???
What would have to happen to make you believe in God ???
I honestly don't know, what was mentioned above wouldn't be a bad attempt lol.
But more seriously, how to tell a god from an alien/time traveler could be tricky, to ancient civilisations the technology we take for granted would make us apear godlike, who's to say beings from the 29th century could not so easily fool us, as we would the early humans?
There was infact an episode of StarTrek: Voyager where two Ferengi crashed onto a broze age style civilization with a replictaor, allowing them to make material anything they wished from thin air, to the people they were gods, indeed, would they not be gods on our planet even now? And yet ofcourse, they were not.
LiberalNation
08-16-2010, 09:54 PM
I don't know why I should keep the faith if Im just gona go to hell for loving women anyway. Rather pointless, thought about that in church last sunday.
HogTrash
08-16-2010, 10:31 PM
I don't know why I should keep the faith if Im just gona go to hell for loving women anyway. Rather pointless, thought about that in church last sunday.Start acting like a woman and go find yourself a big hard brute with an over-sized hogleg and get your monkey spanked proper.
PostmodernProphet
08-16-2010, 10:57 PM
I was not asking about the eternal Sin, but rather, how you *know* what Jesus thought the LawMakers knew. Are you just assuming you have that knowledge?
I assumed, since you were arguing the issue you had bothered to read the scripture passage....
Matthew 12:24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand."
.....I am assuming, for the sake of understanding eternal sin, that one MUST have the knowledge, yes......that's how it works....
PostmodernProphet
08-16-2010, 11:01 PM
Maybe,
or maybe he is just a humble middle eastern man, who performs a few unexplainable feats, preaches the word of God, and asks those who should believe in him, do believe in him.
Would that be enough for you? Or does your god have to go out of it's way with zillions of angels?
obviously it was enough for me, since I'm a believer...........as for the zillions of angels, yeah that's a requirement......because that's how he's said he's coming back the second time around.....
I mean, if I saw some bloke floatig through the sky, will zillions of angels and a sword of flames and so forth, I would no doubt drop to my knees, accept them as my god, and be forgiven and get to heaven. As would anyone else who is sane.
tough shit.....it will be too late by then, you had to believe in him when he was the humble middle eastern man....
Quite a thinker, no?
considering how badly you've messed up this argument, I can't honestly agree with you......
Sweetchuck
08-16-2010, 11:11 PM
Start acting like a woman and go find yourself a big hard brute with an over-sized hogleg and get your monkey spanked proper.
Said like a proper Christian.
yeah, cause that's how he's said he's coming back the second time around.....you're trying to make him out a liar....
Maybe something lost in translation, afterall, so much if the bible is metaphor, right?
tough shit.....it will be too late by then, you had to believe in him when he was the humble middle eastern man....
So when god shows himself to me, and makes me certain that I know its him (as you have said you think happens) I and turn my back on him i'm doomed no matter what I do, however, when he does show himself to me in a way that I can't deny that will also be too late to welcome him into my life.
See what I mean? On the one hand you want the notion of faith and belief, in the other of undeniable proof and certantity. They just don't mix.
considering how badly you've messed up this argument, I can't honestly agree with you......
any 'messing up' is your deliberate attempt to make it apear so imo. But then I would say that, just as you said what you said, such is life.
Can I also ask what undeniable proof your were given, that can not be otherwise explained that Jesus, that little middle eastern Jew, is the son of god (i.e. Not just proof of any theist deity, or even a deist one, but specificly him, the son of that one god) out of the thousands of other possibilites? Which (had you not of accepted) you would of been commuting an eternal sin by denying?
PostmodernProphet
08-16-2010, 11:23 PM
Maybe something lost in translation, afterall, so much if the bible is metaphor, right?
the triumphant return isn't metaphor.....
So when god shows himself to me, and makes me certain that I know its him (as you have said you think happens) I and turn my back on him i'm doomed no matter what I do, however, when he does show himself to me in a way that I can't deny that will also be too late to welcome him into my life.
yes....if you wait to accept him until it's the only possible choice, you've fucked up.....
See what I mean? On the one hand you want the notion of faith and belief, in the other of undeniable proof and certantity. They just don't mix.
no, I don't see what you mean at all......I accept on the basis of faith....YOU demand proof and certainty....I agree they don't mix, but that's your problem.....
any 'messing up' is your deliberate attempt to make it apear so imo. But then I would say that, just as you said what you said, such is life.
sorry, but your argument shows you still lack any clue about this, despite the fact it's clear to billions of people in hundreds of languages.....
Can I also ask what undeniable proof your were given, that can not be otherwise explained that Jesus, that little middle eastern Jew, is the son of god (i.e. Not just proof of any theist deity, or even a deist one, but specificly him, the son of that one god) out of the thousands of other possibilites? Which (had you not of accepted) you would of been commuting an eternal sin by denying?
you see....again, you don't get it.....I accepted by faith, not by undeniable proof.....
HogTrash
08-16-2010, 11:40 PM
Said like a proper Christian.Thank you kindly brother Sweetchuck and God bless you.
the triumphant return isn't metaphor.....
Why not? Is that just your (or others) personal interpretation?
yes....if you wait to accept him until it's the only possible choice, you've fucked up.....
You'd still have a choice, like I said in a previous statement he could be a being from the 29ty century. If someone wishes to believe that then they've made a choice, right?
no, I don't see what you mean at all......I accept on the basis of faith....YOU demand proof and certainty....I agree they don't mix, but that's your problem.....
But Jesus went out of his way to prove certainty that he was the son of god did he not? Just how much faith did it take when they saw a man walk ontop of water? As aspose to hearing about it thousands of years later with The knowledge of all the other myths and religions of the world?
sorry, but your argument shows you still lack any clue about this, despite the fact it's clear to billions of people in hundreds of languages.....
you see....again, you don't get it.....I accepted by faith, not by undeniable proof.....
You where the one that said "I think that at some point in every person's life God reaches out and presents them with a gift of the Spirit....something which some feel sufficient to bring them to accept God and which others turn their backs on.......denying God when he reaches out specifically for you IS the eternal sin....."
So at some point in your life 'god reached out to you' if at that very moment you had not believed in him you would of been guilty of an eternal sin and dammed to the lakes of fire. I'm just wondering when he decided to reach out to you and how did you know he was? (and again I'll repeat, I mean specificly him, and not possibly any other god or deity)
Sweetchuck
08-16-2010, 11:43 PM
Thank you kindly brother Sweetchuck and God bless you.
Bro.. broha..
brohaha
brutha from anotha motha
PostmodernProphet
08-17-2010, 07:35 AM
Why not? Is that just your (or others) personal interpretation?
the return of Christ is a primary doctrine of Christianity.....I can't even begin to imagine how you would continue to meet the definition of "Christian" if you didn't believe in the return of the Christ......so no, I wouldn't call that a matter of personal interpretation......
You'd still have a choice, like I said in a previous statement he could be a being from the 29ty century. If someone wishes to believe that then they've made a choice, right?
in your words..."I mean, if I saw some bloke floatig through the sky, will zillions of angels and a sword of flames and so forth, I would no doubt drop to my knees, accept them as my god, and be forgiven and get to heaven. As would anyone else who is sane."
so, if you mean they still have the choice to be insane, /shrugs.....beyond that, you're insisting on a god that you have no choice but to accept, while faced with a god who wants only those who choose without proof.....
But Jesus went out of his way to prove certainty that he was the son of god did he not? Just how much faith did it take when they saw a man walk ontop of water? As aspose to hearing about it thousands of years later with The knowledge of all the other myths and religions of the world?
you are required to make your choice by faith.....as I was, as everyone else alive today....
You where the one that said "I think that at some point in every person's life God reaches out and presents them with a gift of the Spirit....something which some feel sufficient to bring them to accept God and which others turn their backs on.......denying God when he reaches out specifically for you IS the eternal sin....."
So at some point in your life 'god reached out to you' if at that very moment you had not believed in him you would of been guilty of an eternal sin and dammed to the lakes of fire. I'm just wondering when he decided to reach out to you and how did you know he was? (and again I'll repeat, I mean specificly him, and not possibly any other god or deity)
never having rejected him, nothing sticks out in my recollection.....I must not have been as "hard sell" as you are.....
PostmodernProphet
08-17-2010, 09:58 AM
Why not? Is that just your (or others) personal interpretation?
things that obviously have to be open to personal interpretation.....
where on earth could Jesus appear in his second coming, that everyone would see him in the eastern sky at the same time?......
will all the sinners facing judgment actually LOOK like goats at the time?.....
if one fourth of the peoples of the world are going to die of pestilence, is that one fourth of those left after wars and famines took their share or is it one fourth of the total before everything started to come down?......
things not open to personal interpretation.....Jesus is coming back!......and we'll notice.......
things not open to personal interpretation.....Jesus is coming back!......and we'll notice.......
Considering there are parts of the world that don't even know he's been once, quote how we'll all notice will be interesting.
the return of Christ is a primary doctrine of Christianity.....I can't even begin to imagine how you would continue to meet the definition of "Christian" if you didn't believe in the return of the Christ......so no, I wouldn't call that a matter of personal interpretation......
But how he'll return is, as you talked about in a later post. So I would put it to you again that if he came back as a humble middle-eastern Jew you wouldn't rush to proclaim him as Christ.
in your words..."I mean, if I saw some bloke floatig through the sky, will zillions of angels and a sword of flames and so forth, I would no doubt drop to my knees, accept them as my god, and be forgiven and get to heaven. As would anyone else who is sane."
so, if you mean they still have the choice to be insane, /shrugs.....beyond that, you're insisting on a god that you have no choice but to accept, while faced with a god who wants only those who choose without proof.....
Indeed, However over the past while I have been considering that which is 'god' and that which is 'god-like'. Under further thought, it may not be quite so insane to think that a godlike being is not god. Would you not agree?
you are required to make your choice by faith.....as I was, as everyone else alive today....
Yep, but not (or so you would believe) as everyone 2000 years ago.
never having rejected him, nothing sticks out in my recollection.....I must not have been as "hard sell" as you are.....
I'm about as hard for god to buy as I am for Thor, Baal and the great juju. Apparently you are not so concerned with technicalities and are happy to sell yourself to the easiest bidder.
PostmodernProphet
09-08-2010, 09:54 AM
Considering there are parts of the world that don't even know he's been once, quote how we'll all notice will be interesting.
even given a total disregard of all the apocalyptic verbiage, do you suspect anyone will sleep through judgment day?....
PostmodernProphet
09-08-2010, 10:10 AM
But how he'll return is, as you talked about in a later post. So I would put it to you again that if he came back as a humble middle-eastern Jew you wouldn't rush to proclaim him as Christ.
if some humble middle eastern Jew walked up to me and said, "why didn't you show up for Judgment Day last week" I would not rush to proclaim him as the Christ.....you are correct in that...
Indeed, However over the past while I have been considering that which is 'god' and that which is 'god-like'. Under further thought, it may not be quite so insane to think that a godlike being is not god. Would you not agree?
Your comment seemed to imply you were still making a choice even though only the insane would choose against.....prior to being impressed with undeniable truth, you must make your choices.....whether you consider a choice in favor to be insanity is merely the way you express your choice....it does not mean it's a true choice.....
Yep, but not (or so you would believe) as everyone 2000 years ago.
perhaps it's because so much time has passed, but I haven't got a clue what you are referring to....
even given a total disregard of all the apocalyptic verbiage, do you suspect anyone will sleep through judgment day?....
I have no idea, and nor do you.
if some humble middle eastern Jew walked up to me and said, "why didn't you show up for Judgment Day last week" I would not rush to proclaim him as the Christ.....you are correct in that...
But if a humble middle eastern Jew walked up to you, said he was Christ, and walked away over the nearest lake, would you rush to proclaim him Christ?
Your comment seemed to imply you were still making a choice even though only the insane would choose against.....prior to being impressed with undeniable truth, you must make your choices.....whether you consider a choice in favor to be insanity is merely the way you express your choice....it does not mean it's a true choice.....
Indeed, but I have since come to reconsider that opinion.
perhaps it's because so much time has passed, but I haven't got a clue what you are referring to....
As in Jesus went out of his way to prove he was the son of god. Making it easier to follow him (if he was indeed the son of god) at the time when he was trying to prove it. As apose to nowadays.
PostmodernProphet
09-08-2010, 02:03 PM
I have no idea, and nor do you.
I disagree....I think its obvious that if there is in fact a judgment day, everyone will know about it.....if they aren't, it could not in fact BE a judgment day......
Pagan
09-08-2010, 02:06 PM
I disagree....I think its obvious that if there is in fact a judgment day, everyone will know about it.....if they aren't, it could not in fact BE a judgment day......
The Universe is Transformation; Life is Opinion
PostmodernProphet
09-08-2010, 02:13 PM
But if a humble middle eastern Jew walked up to you, said he was Christ, and walked away over the nearest lake, would you rush to proclaim him Christ?
[quote]
I'm not sure why you aren't recognizing my answer....given what the Scriptures say, no I would not proclaim some Jew walking up to me to be the Christ.....I would only consider him to be the Christ if he was returning on judgment day, which is going to be unmistakable....why would I assume he has lied to me about the second coming?......
[quote]
Indeed, but I have since come to reconsider that opinion.
then you will have to tell me what your new opinion is....I have only been able to respond to your old one....
As in Jesus went out of his way to prove he was the son of god. Making it easier to follow him (if he was indeed the son of god) at the time when he was trying to prove it. As apose to nowadays.
he proved he was God to a handful of people who believed....keep in mind he provided the same evidence to people who chose to kill him instead.....sort of like the situation we have today.....I observe creation and see proof of a Creator.....you observe the same creation and deny it.....
whether or not he made it easier then, he offers you a choice to be made without proof....it's the best offer you're going to get.....you can say it's not a good enough offer, but that again is just another way of expressing your choice.....the Bible is clear, over and over again.....if you wait until the choice is obvious, it is no longer a choice you can make....
I disagree....I think its obvious that if there is in fact a judgment day, everyone will know about it.....if they aren't, it could not in fact BE a judgment day......
You and I are equal in knowing absolutey nothing about such an event, including how aware of it we will be.
I'm not sure why you aren't recognizing my answer....given what the Scriptures say, no I would not proclaim some Jew walking up to me to be the Christ.....I would only consider him to be the Christ if he was returning on judgment day, which is going to be unmistakable....why would I assume he has lied to me about the second coming?......
Did not many people believe that Jesus was going to come (the first time) as a great warrior a physically slay their enemies?
Could you not be falling victim to similar thoughts, as you are expecting how he will come back?
then you will have to tell me what your new opinion is....I have only been able to respond to your old one....
That it would be basically impossible to tell a 'god like' creature from a god.
he proved he was God to a handful of people who believed....keep in mind he provided the same evidence to people who chose to kill him instead.....sort of like the situation we have today.....I observe creation and see proof of a Creator.....you observe the same creation and deny it.....
whether or not he made it easier then, he offers you a choice to be made without proof....it's the best offer you're going to get.....you can say it's not a good enough offer, but that again is just another way of expressing your choice.....the Bible is clear, over and over again.....if you wait until the choice is obvious, it is no longer a choice you can make....
And why should some humans of gotten an easier choice, and thus path to heaven than other humans?
PostmodernProphet
09-08-2010, 10:12 PM
You and I are equal in knowing absolutey nothing about such an event, including how aware of it we will be.
if in fact there is a judgment day as defined by the Christian religion, then you and I will know exactly when it is happening......if there is no judgment day as defined by the Christian religion, then we will know it is NOT happening....
if there is a Jesus sneaking up on us, then you were right and I was wrong and there is no Christianity.....simple as that....
PostmodernProphet
09-08-2010, 10:17 PM
Did not many people believe that Jesus was going to come (the first time) as a great warrior a physically slay their enemies?
not that I'm aware of....I believe Orthodox Jews may be expecting such a Messiah, but obviously, it wouldn't be Jesus they were expecting....
That it would be basically impossible to tell a 'god like' creature from a god.
not sure where you're going with that....I guess my response is, so what?......we're supposed to choose whether or not to believe, regardless of whether or not we could "tell" a god like creature from a god.....
And why should some humans of gotten an easier choice, and thus path to heaven than other humans?
because they were given the job of being disciples I expect.....what difference does it make to you, were you wanting to be Paul?......or are you more the Judas type.......
Could you not be falling victim to similar thoughts, as you are expecting how he will come back?
the Bible isn't really vague on the fact that he's coming back for a Judgment Day....and there's nothing in the Bible that would lead me to believe it's going to be a secret to anyone.....so, unless I assume the Bible is lying about that basic premise it I think Christians all know THAT he's coming back.....whether it's a warrior slaying enemies or just a multitude of angels escorting him from the heavens doesn't matter so much to me.....
and, if I DO assume the Bible is lying about how he's coming back, why would I bother thinking about WHETHER he's coming back......
if in fact there is a judgment day as defined by the Christian religion, then you and I will know exactly when it is happening......if there is no judgment day as defined by the Christian religion, then we will know it is NOT happening....
if there is a Jesus sneaking up on us, then you were right and I was wrong and there is no Christianity.....simple as that....
That's with you assuming that your expectations of what a Christian judgement day will be like is the way it will be.
not that I'm aware of....I believe Orthodox Jews may be expecting such a Messiah, but obviously, it wouldn't be Jesus they were expecting....
Well that's what I was taught, given the Jews believed they would be free in this world (then Jesus popped along and said no, it'd be in the afterlife)
not sure where you're going with that....I guess my response is, so what?......we're supposed to choose whether or not to believe, regardless of whether or not we could "tell" a god like creature from a god.....
You would not think it of mild importance if you could not tell a god like figure from your god?
because they were given the job of being disciples I expect.....what difference does it make to you, were you wanting to be Paul?......or are you more the Judas type.......
So some humans got an easier ride than others, just, because they did? Oh well, lucky them.
the Bible isn't really vague on the fact that he's coming back for a Judgment Day....and there's nothing in the Bible that would lead me to believe it's going to be a secret to anyone.....so, unless I assume the Bible is lying about that basic premise it I think Christians all know THAT he's coming back.....whether it's a warrior slaying enemies or just a multitude of angels escorting him from the heavens doesn't matter so much to me.....
and, if I DO assume the Bible is lying about how he's coming back, why would I bother thinking about WHETHER he's coming back......
By way of wondering, if it where to be discovered that a planet killing force was on our way to us (say like an asteroid I mentioned earlier, and we knew we only had a few weeks until it hit, and there was nothing we could do to stop it, all humans would die. Would that then mean that your god would be working in a timetable to appear in those few weeks?
PostmodernProphet
09-09-2010, 07:37 AM
That's with you assuming that your expectations of what a Christian judgement day will be like is the way it will be.
no, that's with no expectations of WHAT it will be, just expectations THAT it will be.....
how could it be a "judgment" day if it was possible to miss it?.....and if there is no second coming of Christ, what is Christianity?.....
no, it would be impossible for Christians to be right and you to be wrong if someone could overlook the second coming of Christ....
PostmodernProphet
09-09-2010, 07:47 AM
Well that's what I was taught, given the Jews believed they would be free in this world (then Jesus popped along and said no, it'd be in the afterlife)
I'm confused....aren't we talking about the second coming?.....how can Christianity teach what to expect about something that occurred prior to it's existence....
You would not think it of mild importance if you could not tell a god like figure from your god?
I don't consider your argument of mild importance.....I'm talking about making a choice whether to believe or not to believe......you're raising petty annoyances......"what type of nose would a god have?"...."could we truly worship a god who had freckles?"........
God demands faith....belief without proof.....you're still stuck on "what proof is good enough"......the answer is none, because if you're still holding out for proof, you're screwed.....
So some humans got an easier ride than others, just, because they did? Oh well, lucky them.
sucks to be you.....but quite frankly, I don't think it would have made much difference.....you'd have been sitting there arguing his freckles were too far apart or too close together for this to have REALLY been a god.....
By way of wondering, if it where to be discovered that a planet killing force was on our way to us (say like an asteroid I mentioned earlier, and we knew we only had a few weeks until it hit, and there was nothing we could do to stop it, all humans would die. Would that then mean that your god would be working in a timetable to appear in those few weeks?
probably not.....since the scriptures tell us we will have no knowledge of the day of his return it would be unlikely he would use an event with such an obvious timetable......what would likely happen is the asteroid would miss us and some atheist would try to claim it was proof there wasn't any god in the first place.....
no, that's with no expectations of WHAT it will be, just expectations THAT it will be.....
how could it be a "judgment" day if it was possible to miss it?.....and if there is no second coming of Christ, what is Christianity?.....
no, it would be impossible for Christians to be right and you to be wrong if someone could overlook the second coming of Christ....
And who's to say that Judgement day will happen the moment he returns? What if he's back living as a humble middle eastern Jew, and before judgement day he proclaims himself as Christ, performs a couple of Miricles, and says that he has proven himself to you, to deny him would be a sin, and that judgement day was near?
PostmodernProphet
09-09-2010, 08:04 AM
And who's to say that Judgement day will happen the moment he returns? What if he's back living as a humble middle eastern Jew, and before judgement day he proclaims himself as Christ, performs a couple of Miricles, and says that he has proven himself to you, to deny him would be a sin, and that judgement day was near?
then the Bible is a lie.....
I'm confused....aren't we talking about the second coming?.....how can Christianity teach what to expect about something that occurred prior to it's existence....
Yes we are, but I'm using the example of jesus' first coming as it's relevant. The Jews were expecting a warrior, and instead got s spiritual warrior, they had completely misunderstood the role of Christ. Now, who's to say that you are not also misinterpreting (or that the writters of the second coming text misinterpreted) yes he may well come back, but who's to say it's not as a humble Jew again?
I don't consider your argument of mild importance.....I'm talking about making a choice whether to believe or not to believe......you're raising petty annoyances......"what type of nose would a god have?"...."could we truly worship a god who had freckles?"........
God demands faith....belief without proof.....you're still stuck on "what proof is good enough"......the answer is none, because if you're still holding out for proof, you're screwed.....
What are you on about? Freckles?
What I'm saying is that you said it's an eternal sin to deny god when he makes himself obvious to you. The question then being what if a god-like being makes himself obvious to you?
sucks to be you.....but quite frankly, I don't think it would have made much difference.....you'd have been sitting there arguing his freckles were too far apart or too close together for this to have REALLY been a god.....
Naw, it's pretty awesome to be me 8)
and no, given the ignorence abound at that time I would likely of followed him.
probably not.....since the scriptures tell us we will have no knowledge of the day of his return it would be unlikely he would use an event with such an obvious timetable......what would likely happen is the asteroid would miss us and some atheist would try to claim it was proof there wasn't any god in the first place.....
No, it will not miss, it is a naturally occurring event. Anyways, we already have a timetable. Given our star is halfway through it's life it'll have to be before it goes giant and turns us into a crisp.
So then, planet killing asteroid heading right for us, death certain for all humans, time table for god set, yeah?
then the Bible is a lie.....
Indeed. Or maybe judgement day is a metaphor, like so much of the bible.
PostmodernProphet
09-09-2010, 10:27 AM
Yes we are, but I'm using the example of jesus' first coming as it's relevant. The Jews were expecting a warrior, and instead got s spiritual warrior, they had completely misunderstood the role of Christ. Now, who's to say that you are not also misinterpreting (or that the writters of the second coming text misinterpreted) yes he may well come back, but who's to say it's not as a humble Jew again?
please cite a passage of scripture that will permit an understanding that the second coming of Christ will be a secret event.....
What are you on about? Freckles?
What I'm saying is that you said it's an eternal sin to deny god when he makes himself obvious to you. The question then being what if a god-like being makes himself obvious to you?
what if angels dance on the head of a pin, does that mean I need to learn to count them?.....look, so do you know it's a god or don't you?....if you don't, then denying him can't be the eternal sin.....if you do, then denying him is......
complaining that you don't know if there's a god isn't going to solve your problem.....I can't see in your heart, God can......if the noise you are making about uncertainty is nothing more than noise, then it will be obvious to him.....it isn't obvious to me, though I consider the lengths you go to find an excuse to NOT believe in him is pretty telling......I suspect someone who wasn't intent on denying something he knew to be true wouldn't bother going on some message board complaining about how unfair it is that God demands belief without evidence......
No, it will not miss, it is a naturally occurring event. Anyways, we already have a timetable. Given our star is halfway through it's life it'll have to be before it goes giant and turns us into a crisp.
So then, planet killing asteroid heading right for us, death certain for all humans, time table for god set, yeah?
nope, it misses us by a couple of solar systems, thank god......
PostmodernProphet
09-09-2010, 10:39 AM
Indeed. Or maybe judgement day is a metaphor, like so much of the bible.
Judgment day is described metaphorically in a number of different places...I am aware of nothing in the Bible that would be interpreted to argue judgment itself, is metaphorical......could you perhaps give me an example?.....
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