View Full Version : So.... if Christians believe............
That we'll all eventually form into a one-world-government which will ultimately usher in the "2nd-coming" of Christ - then why do they pray to stop it?
Isn't that like working against God's will? I mean, if Scripture foretells all these events, you should embrace it - the sooner it's here, the sooner you'll see Christ, right?
revelarts
08-09-2010, 12:05 AM
That we'll all eventually form into a one-world-government which will ultimately usher in the "2nd-coming" of Christ - then why do they pray to stop it?
Isn't that like working against God's will? I mean, if Scripture foretells all these events, you should embrace it - the sooner it's here, the sooner you'll see Christ, right?
I'm having some deja vu here. different specifics same theme .
Christians believe we go to heaven when we die too. But we don't kill ourselves. why? Well there's the obvious, but because God says life here on earth is Precious, a gift and not to taken for selfish or arbitrary reasons.
If God is in control of Plagues and Natural disasters then obviously they are his will and to help people survive a flood or find a cure for disease is obviously against God's will right? No that's wrong. God's will for us is to resist the troubles of various disasters and fight for the lives of the innocents. we are specifically commanded to do so. And to pray for the sick that they should get well and to apply all available natural remedies. If God wants someone dead they won't survive. But we don't know the will of God for anyone in particular.
In a similar way the idea applies to salvation. We have no idea who will be saved.
Jesus stated flatly that "few" would believe and be saved. But he commanded the disciples to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to EVERY creature" . We know that most will not listen but we are commanded to give the message to all. Give the good news to all and let God sort them out.
Yes the one world anti Christ gov't will come but we are not to promote it. Or sit idly by and watch it fall into place. Christian are always suppose to stand against corruption and death no matter what the form or prophetic time. During those days many Christians will be killed because they refuse to play along with the pagan gov't corruption and idol worship. Just as a few Christians in Germany and else where refused to do as they were commanded by the NAZIs. Some died fighting the evil God allowed the German gov't of the day to do. Just as some die now in Muslim and communist countries for preaching or living as Christians.
Simply put, If a Christian is standing and promoting a common sense and clear Biblical understandings life, peace, justice, truth and love. That Christian is pretty much guaranteed to be doing God's will for HIM or HER. What God's larger purposes are, are HIS own business, but they all work finally for Good too.
“Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.” Psalm 34:14
avatar4321
08-09-2010, 12:06 AM
funny, i dont believe anything about a one world government and the second coming.. Where in the Bible does it mention anything like that?
funny, i dont believe anything about a one world government and the second coming.. Where in the Bible does it mention anything like that?
You and I agree! :)
DragonStryk72
08-09-2010, 12:47 AM
I'm having some deja vu here. different specifics same theme .
Christians believe we go to heaven when we die too. But we don't kill ourselves. why? Well there's the obvious, but because God says life here on earth is Precious, a gift and not to taken for selfish or arbitrary reasons.
If God is in control of Plagues and Natural disasters then obviously they are his will and to help people survive a flood or find a cure for disease is obviously against God's will right? No that's wrong. God's will for us is to resist the troubles of various disasters and fight for the lives of the innocents. we are specifically commanded to do so. And to pray for the sick that they should get well and to apply all available natural remedies. If God wants someone dead they won't survive. But we don't know the will of God for anyone in particular.
In a similar way the idea applies to salvation. We have no idea who will be saved.
Jesus stated flatly that "few" would believe and be saved. But he commanded the disciples to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to EVERY creature" . We know that most will not listen but we are commanded to give the message to all. Give the good news to all and let God sort them out.
Yes the one world anti Christ gov't will come but we are not to promote it. Or sit idly by and watch it fall into place. Christian are always suppose to stand against corruption and death no matter what the form or prophetic time. During those days many Christians will be killed because they refuse to play along with the pagan gov't corruption and idol worship. Just as a few Christians in Germany and else where refused to do as they were commanded by the NAZIs. Some died fighting the evil God allowed the German gov't of the day to do. Just as some die now in Muslim and communist countries for preaching or living as Christians.
Simply put, If a Christian is standing and promoting a common sense and clear Biblical understandings life, peace, justice, truth and love. That Christian is pretty much guaranteed to be doing God's will for HIM or HER. What God's larger purposes are, are HIS own business, but they all work finally for Good too.
“Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.” Psalm 34:14
Actally there is one deviation that I will note here. God gave man free will, and thus, the Nazis were not the work of God, but the work of Man.
darin
08-09-2010, 03:39 AM
...but God placed Hitler as God placed Obama...
KarlMarx
08-09-2010, 05:49 AM
That we'll all eventually form into a one-world-government which will ultimately usher in the "2nd-coming" of Christ - then why do they pray to stop it?
Isn't that like working against God's will? I mean, if Scripture foretells all these events, you should embrace it - the sooner it's here, the sooner you'll see Christ, right?
Those who are called "premillennialists", i.e. believe that Revelation describes events that are to come instead of events that have already happened, believe that a single world government will be set up under the Anti-Christ then there will be the "rapture" in which the faithful, both living and dead, will be called to heaven... then there will be a 7 year tribulation (a period of unprecedented evil) afterwards, the Anti-Christ, Satan, and his followers will be cast into a sea of fire and Christ will establish His kingdom on Earth for 1000 years (the Millenium).
I don't think we are called to simply roll over and play dead when it comes to the political side of things. We are, as Christians, supposed to carry out what God tells us to in the Bible. That means, fight those wicked people in government who want to establish a world government while knowing that, eventually, they will get their way (for about 7 years or so....)
PostmodernProphet
08-09-2010, 07:02 AM
That we'll all eventually form into a one-world-government which will ultimately usher in the "2nd-coming" of Christ - then why do they pray to stop it?
never heard that one.....is that some fundamentalist pre-mill, post-mill fantasy?......haven't paid much attention to those.....I guess the answer must be, those very few who actually believe that, probably don't.....it's just hard to find somebody who actually believes it.......
darin
08-09-2010, 07:21 AM
^^ how long have you been a christian? If you've been a christian for more than awhile, I'd say you are lying by claiming to have never heard of what he said. The Tribulation and Rapture is probably THE MOST widely-taught doctrine among christianity.
PostmodernProphet
08-09-2010, 12:36 PM
^^ how long have you been a christian? If you've been a christian for more than awhile, I'd say you are lying by claiming to have never heard of what he said. The Tribulation and Rapture is probably THE MOST widely-taught doctrine among christianity.
lol...I've been a Christian all my life.....and millennialists comprise something like 5% of Christians....even at that not all millennialists believe that there needs to be a "one world" government to trigger the second coming......so to claim it's the most widely taught doctrine in Christianity is an utter absurdity....my question is, why do you know so little about Christianity?.......
Actally there is one deviation that I will note here. God gave man free will, and thus, the Nazis were not the work of God, but the work of Man.
No, man does NOT have "Free Will" - the damning word there is "Free".
Abbey Marie
08-09-2010, 12:51 PM
The simple answers:
1. I don't know people who actively pray that it won't happen.
2. It is human nature to hope that we can see our children grown and married, see our grandchildren someday, and live a long, full life, and not be cut off early.
I think you are searching in vain for hypocrisy.
darin
08-09-2010, 01:33 PM
No, man does NOT have "Free Will" - the damning word there is "Free".
it's aboslutely free will - the consequences though, cost.
it's aboslutely free will - the consequences though, cost.
We have a will - of course... but we don't have a "free will" - that implies we make choices free of influence.
darin
08-09-2010, 02:13 PM
No it doesn't. It means we make choices regardless of influence - and are responsible for same.
No it doesn't. It means we make choices regardless of influence - and are responsible for same.
This might help ya out bro:
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darin
08-09-2010, 03:29 PM
That guy is pretty smart, but I wish he'd be more direct instead of hyperbole and 50000 too many examples to describe his point.
His premise is laughable. You're telling me I only have free will if nobody influences what is ultimately my choice?
God is NOT operating all things for everything in accordance to His will, because if God's will reigned supreme nobody would perish. Christ clearly says some folks will.
(shrug)
Free will is NOT the same as free-of-influence. He's gravely in err.
That guy is pretty smart, but I wish he'd be more direct instead of hyperbole and 50000 too many examples to describe his point.
His premise is laughable. You're telling me I only have free will if nobody influences what is ultimately my choice?
God is NOT operating all things for everything in accordance to His will, because if God's will reigned supreme nobody would perish. Christ clearly says some folks will.
(shrug)
Free will is NOT the same as free-of-influence. He's gravely in err.
One of the most popular statements in the Christian religion today is, "Jesus saves." By itself, this statement is true. As presented by the Christian religion, however, it is hypocrisy packaged in a false expression. If Jesus saves, then why is salvation presented as a challenge? Why is it put forth as the result of a wise decision? Why do ministers at altar calls tell people to come down and "get saved?" Why is the exercise of the human will advertised as the all-important thing? What, exactly, saves? Is it Jesus or will power? I think this is an important question.
This too might help ya:
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That guy is pretty smart, but I wish he'd be more direct instead of hyperbole and 50000 too many examples to describe his point.
His premise is laughable. You're telling me I only have free will if nobody influences what is ultimately my choice?
God is NOT operating all things for everything in accordance to His will, because if God's will reigned supreme nobody would perish. Christ clearly says some folks will.
(shrug)
Free will is NOT the same as free-of-influence. He's gravely in err.
Where does Christ say anyone will perish?
revelarts
08-09-2010, 04:01 PM
I doubt were going settle the free will vs God's sovereignty question here but if we're taking a vote. I think adam and eve had perfectly free wills but after the fall everyone else's has been bent toward the dark side. So free will is'nt exactly free anymore from that perspective.
BUT the question about the one world gov't and the rapture and the anti Christ.
I've been around Christians all my life but didn't become a christian until i was an adult. I'd never heard of one world gov't -and the rature before then. the anti christ yes heard of him.
if the number who believe it are 5% or 100% it really doesn't matter the question is whether it true or false. or maybe a bit of both.
I'm in the camp that believe it. But I respect Christians who don't. I don't see how it really changes a persons status as christian either way.
But I am curious.
those that don't believe it ( in my limited experience) don't answer questions very well about what verses mean that seem to indicate one world gov't anti christ and rature.
Honestly, I'm not trying to start a debate. I'd really like a couple of short strait answers, if someones got them.
Now i know what i believe about 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. I know many Christians think i'm wrong OK got it. but what DOES IT MEAN.
What is Paul talking about here?
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I'm not going to rebut you, I ,seriously, just want to know.
as far as a one world gov't goes.
that's harder to pin down wwith one section but
revelation chap 13 says
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
the rest of 13 seems to says more about the one world ruler and rule. But it comes together clearer with the rest of revelations and parts of daniel andother prophets. but It's, in one sense, a minor hinge point. Jesus, Daniel and the others Major on the coming of the Kingdom of Gods where all of the earthly kingdoms are wiped out and replaced by the reign of Jesus as king on earth.
However I would like to know what others believe about revelation13.
what does it mean , if not a one world rulers able to control what we buy and sell unless you have the "mark of the beast"?
I'm not going to rebut. I'm just curious. and please don't point me to a book. give me a couple sentences that sum it it up.
thanks
PostmodernProphet
08-10-2010, 01:16 PM
If Jesus saves, then why is salvation presented as a challenge? Why is it put forth as the result of a wise decision?
because obviously, some people don't make wise decisions.....they are free to say "I refuse to believe in you, I refuse your salvation".......
Where does Christ say anyone will perish?
John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
It seems to me the obverse would be implied......that if you DON'T believe in him, you WILL perish....
of course, you could always argue that Jesus didn't say it, the Bible does.....but then, I believe in the Jesus described in the Bible, not the Jesus you have made up......
What is Paul talking about here?
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I'm not going to rebut you, I ,seriously, just want to know.
he's talking about the return of Christ....the problem arises when you add to what is said above by claiming Christ is then going to do a U-Turn and head back to heaven saying, "oops, not yet, see you in a thousand years".......
However I would like to know what others believe about revelation13.
my denomination is amillenial (basically that 1000 is figurative and refers to that period of time between the first and second coming).....when Jesus comes back, he's back to stay....
we believe that the book of Revelation was written for the first century church, not for those of us in some unknown future....
the one world government was the Roman Empire and the Anti-christ was the Caesar who was martyring the Christian church.......
apocrypha was a literary device quite common at the time.....like Gulliver's Travels, it was a way of attacking the existing political structure without incurring the wrath of those who didn't realize it.....
revelarts
08-10-2010, 02:33 PM
So all of the book of revelation is in the past except for the return and reign of of Jesus? All the plagues, bowls, etc are already past. or was the wraith of God etc a metaphor for something less than described?
PostmodernProphet
08-10-2010, 03:58 PM
So all of the book of revelation is in the past except for the return and reign of of Jesus? All the plagues, bowls, etc are already past. or was the wraith of God etc a metaphor for something less than described?
as I interpret your comment, neither is correct....John was providing a teaching to churches which were CURRENTLY suffering persecution by a Caesar who had declared himself to be a god (hence references to worship of the anti-Christ) and who was the head of most of the world as known to the citizens of the Roman Empire.....his message to them was Jesus has already defeated the Anti-Christ and those who remain faithful through persecution would be reunited in the afterlife for eternity.....all of the items of Rev 13-22 are symbols of the suffering that the Christians of the first century were experiencing THEN......not in the past, not in the future, but in their present......
John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
It seems to me the obverse would be implied......that if you DON'T believe in him, you WILL perish....
of course, you could always argue that Jesus didn't say it, the Bible does.....but then, I believe in the Jesus described in the Bible, not the Jesus you have made up......
And what - to you - does the word Perish mean?
revelarts
08-10-2010, 04:36 PM
as I interpret your comment, neither is correct....John was providing a teaching to churches which were CURRENTLY suffering persecution by a Caesar who had declared himself to be a god (hence references to worship of the anti-Christ) and who was the head of most of the world as known to the citizens of the Roman Empire.....his message to them was Jesus has already defeated the Anti-Christ and those who remain faithful through persecution would be reunited in the afterlife for eternity.....all of the items of Rev 13-22 are symbols of the suffering that the Christians of the first century were experiencing THEN......not in the past, not in the future, but in their present......
OK so just to be clear.
the book of revelation is not talking about , in part, the return of Jesus to earth to reign, but only His heavenly kingdom.
And All the plagues etc that are spoken of through out the book are now long past tense, and completely finished or "poured out" only on the Romans and all during the 1st century.
PostmodernProphet
08-10-2010, 06:41 PM
OK so just to be clear.
the book of revelation is not talking about , in part, the return of Jesus to earth to reign, but only His heavenly kingdom.
????.....there is no "only heavenly kingdom"......Jesus reigns, in heaven and on earth, now......
And what - to you - does the word Perish mean?
Bible Study ToolsOur LibraryLexiconsNew Testament Greek LexiconNew American Standard Greek LexiconApollumi
Apollumi
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 622
Original Word Word Origin
apollumi from (575) and the base of (3639)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Apollumi 1:394,67
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ap-ol'-loo-mee Verb
Definition
1. to destroy
1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
2. render useless
3. to kill
4. to declare that one must be put to death
5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2. to destroy
1. to lose
NAS Word Usage - Total: 93
bring 1, destroy 17, destroyed 9, dying 1, end 1, killed 1, lose 10, loses 7, lost 14, much 1, passed away 1, perish 14, perishable 1, perished 4, perishes 1, perishing 6, put to death 1, ruined 3
Strong's says the root meaning of the word is "separation"
Strong's says the root meaning of the word is "separation"
Right.... those who don't believe are separated for an age-during (that's the word eternal is there in the Greek). After that time, they will be reconciled to God..
16for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (Young's Literal Translation)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:16&version=YLT
revelarts
08-10-2010, 07:55 PM
...there is no "only heavenly kingdom"......Jesus reigns, in heaven and on earth, now.
um yes... Amen!
but earlier you said.
"17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord…
...he's talking about the return of Christ..
…that 1000 is figurative and refers to that period of time between the first and second coming when Jesus comes back, he's back to stay..
So I assumed you believe that Jesus is still to come to earth BODILY and take over the nations of the earth in a way that the u.n. and presidents and prime minsters etc. would be obsolete.
Am I wrong in that assumption? Are you saying that Jesus IS ONLY and WILL ONLY reign from the spiritual world over earth and heaven as he does now?
I'm not really understanding where your coming from.
And please help me be clear about this part of my earlier question too.
Are All the plagues etc that are spoken of through out the book are now long past tense, and completely finished or "poured out" only on the Romans and all during the 1st century?
PostmodernProphet
08-11-2010, 07:23 AM
Right.... those who don't believe are separated for an age-during (that's the word eternal is there in the Greek). After that time, they will be reconciled to God..
interesting doctrine....did you find that in the Bible somewhere?......
PostmodernProphet
08-11-2010, 07:32 AM
So I assumed you believe that Jesus is still to come to earth BODILY and take over the nations of the earth in a way that the u.n. and presidents and prime minsters etc. would be obsolete.
that would be judgment day, yes....but hardly in the same way as the UN or presidents...he wouldn't be taking over nations, nations would simply cease to exist, there will be a new earth.....
Are you saying that Jesus IS ONLY and WILL ONLY reign from the spiritual world over earth and heaven as he does now?
I'm not really understanding where your coming from.
lol, no I am not saying that, and I am as confused as to where you are going..
And please help me be clear about this part of my earlier question too.
Are All the plagues etc that are spoken of through out the book are now long past tense, and completely finished or "poured out" only on the Romans and all during the 1st century?
well obviously we are still having wars and famine and death and pestilence, but there aren't going to be specific events of it as some believe after reading Revelation.......
this period of time in human history is set aside for us to make our choices regarding being restored to God......the return of Christ isn't going to be triggered by the existence of some one world government or an anti-Christ.....shucks, anti-Christs are a dime a dozen....every political board has a handful......
revelarts
08-11-2010, 11:49 AM
Ok, I think i see where your coming from now.
Basically your saying that it's your understanding that,
Jesus's bodily return and the setting up of his reign in the new heaven and earth is yet to come. But everything else that's mentioned in revelations and other prophetic passages (i assume) have basically taken place already in some form or another. Or are interpreted in a way so they are understood to be non-specific or less than literal in some ways. That recent things like Israel's rebirth in the 1950's, Some Jews desire for temple rebuilding, wars, the near possible reality of tagging everyone like animals, etc are interesting but not prophetically significant at all and are simply generic parts of the current last days. "Wars and rumors of wars..." until the kingdom comes pretty much sums it up.
Is that about right?
PostmodernProphet
08-11-2010, 04:37 PM
Ok, I think i see where your coming from now.
Basically your saying that it's your understanding that,
Jesus's bodily return and the setting up of his reign in the new heaven and earth is yet to come. But everything else that's mentioned in revelations and other prophetic passages (i assume) have basically taken place already in some form or another. Or are interpreted in a way so they are understood to be non-specific or less than literal in some ways. That recent things like Israel's rebirth in the 1950's, Some Jews desire for temple rebuilding, wars, the near possible reality of tagging everyone like animals, etc are interesting but not prophetically significant at all and are simply generic parts of the current last days. "Wars and rumors of wars..." until the kingdom comes pretty much sums it up.
Is that about right?
pretty much, but I'm vague about that "setting up reign" part......the way I see it he's already doing all the reigning he's going to be doing.....the difference is, nobody will be fighting it, because everyone who hasn't already accepted it will be gone.....
revelarts
08-11-2010, 05:46 PM
pretty much, but I'm vague about that "setting up reign" part......the way I see it he's already doing all the reigning he's going to be doing.....the difference is, nobody will be fighting it, because everyone who hasn't already accepted it will be gone.....
That difference is the setting up.
That Jesus will put the rebellious out of his presence and off of the earth for a reign that makes the Earth paradise and Heaven.
PostmodernProphet
08-11-2010, 07:31 PM
That difference is the setting up.
That Jesus will put the rebellious out of his presence and off of the earth for a reign that makes the Earth paradise and Heaven.
yeah, I can live with that......for eternity.....
gabosaurus
08-11-2010, 11:54 PM
I think you are searching in vain for hypocrisy.
I find this to be true of the majority of cp's religion-based threads.
...but God placed Hitler as God placed Bush...
>> I fixed your quote so it will be more factually correct. :)
LuvRPgrl
08-12-2010, 02:59 AM
I find this to be true of the majority of cp's religion-based threads.
>> I fixed your quote so it will be more factually correct. :)
Typical radical left wing liberal nut job head case
But watcha gonna do about me, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
avatar4321
08-16-2010, 02:43 PM
^^ how long have you been a christian? If you've been a christian for more than awhile, I'd say you are lying by claiming to have never heard of what he said. The Tribulation and Rapture is probably THE MOST widely-taught doctrine among christianity.
Shame isnt it? It should be the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ:)
PostmodernProphet
08-16-2010, 07:17 PM
Shame isnt it? It should be the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ:)
now that I could agree is the most widely taught Christian doctrine....
LuvRPgrl
08-17-2010, 12:17 PM
now that I could agree is the most widely taught Christian doctrine....
virgin birth and resurection?
PostmodernProphet
08-17-2010, 12:28 PM
virgin birth and resurection?
???...no, what I quoted in my post.....atonement, resurrection....
LuvRPgrl
08-17-2010, 12:48 PM
???...no, what I quoted in my post.....atonement, resurrection....
the "?????" only meant it is my opinion, the virgin birth and resurection are thee most widely taught doctrine.
I dont think anyone can definitively say which is
Abbey Marie
08-17-2010, 02:47 PM
now that I could agree is the most widely taught Christian doctrine....
There is a reason that people at sporting events hold up John 3:16 signs; not verses on the rapture.
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