How multiculturalism is betraying women

[-Cp]

Do you believe in the rights of women, or do you believe in multiculturalism? A series of verdicts in the German courts in the past month, have shown with hot, hard logic that you can't back both. You have to choose.

The crux case centres on a woman called Nishal, a 26-year-old Moroccan immigrant to Germany with two kids and a psychotic husband. Since their wedding night, this husband beat the hell out of her. She crawled to the police covered in wounds, and they ordered the husband to stay away from her. He refused. He terrorised her with death threats.

So Nishal went to the courts to request an early divorce, hoping that once they were no longer married he would leave her alone. A judge who believed in the rights of women would find it very easy to make a judgement: you're free from this man, case dismissed.

But Judge Christa Datz-Winter followed the logic of multiculturalism instead. She said she would not grant an early divorce because - despite the police documentation of extreme violence and continued threats - there was no "unreasonable hardship" here.

Why? Because the woman, as a Muslim, should have "expected" it, the judge explained. She read out passages from the Koran to show that Muslim husbands have the "right to use corporal punishment". Look at Sura 4, verse 34, she said to Nishal, where the Koran says he can hammer you. That's your culture. Goodbye, and enjoy your beatings.

This is not a freakish exception. Germany's only state-level Minister for Integration, Armin Laschet, says this is only "the last link, for the time being, in a chain of horrific rulings handed down by the German courts".

The German magazine Der Spiegel has documented a long list of these multicultural verdicts. Here are just a few:

A Lebanese-German who strangled his daughter Ibthahale and then beat her unconscious with a bludgeon because she didn't want to marry the man he had picked out for her was sentenced to mere probation. His "cultural background" was cited by the judge as a mitigating factor.

A Turkish-German who stabbed his wife Zeynep to death in Frankfurt was given the lowest possible sentence, because, the judge said, the murdered woman had violated his "male honour, derived from his Anatolian moral concepts". The bitch. A Lebanese-German who raped his wife Fatima while whipping her with a belt was sentenced to probation, with the judge citing his ... you get the idea.

Their victims are forced to ask - like Soujourner Truth, the female slave who famously challenged early women's rights activists to consider black women as their sisters - "Ain't I a woman?"

In Germany today, Muslim women have been reduced to third-class citizens stripped of core legal protections - because of the doctrine of multiculturalism, which says a society should be divided into separate cultures with different norms according to ethnic origin.

Too often this issue is mixed up with other debates and gets waved through for the sake of politeness. The right loves mashing "mass immigration and multiculturalism" into one sound-bite. Well, I think Britain should take more immigrants and refugees, not fewer - but multiculturalism is a disastrous way to greet them.

These German cases highlight the flaw at the core of multiculturalism. It assumes that immigrants have one homogenous culture which they should all follow - and it allows the most reactionary and revolting men in their midst to define what that culture is. Across Europe, many imams are offering advice to Muslim men on how to beat Muslim women. For example, in Spain, the popular Imam Mohammed Kamal Mustafa warns that you shouldn't use "whips that are too thick" because they leave scars that can be detected by the "infidels". That might be Mustafa's culture - but it isn't Nishal's. It isn't the culture of the women who scream and weep as they are beaten.

And yes, we should admit that this is disproportionately a problem among Muslim, Sikh and Hindu immigrants who arrive from countries which have not had women's rights movements. Listen to Jasvinder Sanghera, who founded the best British charity helping Asian women after her sister was beaten and beaten and then burned herself to death. She says: "It's a betrayal of these women to be PC about this. Look at the figures. Asian women in Britain are three times more likely to commit suicide than their white friends. That's because of all this."

Yet the brave campaigners who have tried to help these women - like the Labour MP Ann Cryer - have been smeared as racist. In fact, the real racists are the people who vehemently condemn misogyny and homophobia when it comes from white people but mysteriously fall silent when it comes from black and Asian men.

Indeed, in the name of this warm, welcoming multiculturalism, the German courts have explicitly compared Muslim women to the brain-damaged. The highest administrative court in North Rhine-Westphalia has agreed that Muslim parents have the "right" to forbid their daughter from going on a school trip unless she was accompanied by a male family member at all times. The judges said the girl was like "a partially mentally impaired person who, because of her disability, can only travel with a companion".

As the Iranian author Azar Nafisi puts it: "I very much resent it when people - maybe with good intentions or from a progressive point of view - keep telling me, 'It's their culture' ... It's like saying the culture of Massachusetts is burning witches." She is horrified by the moves in Canada to introduce shariah courts to enforce family law for Muslims.

Multiculturalists believe that they are defending immigrants. But in reality, they are betraying at least 55 per cent of them - the women and the gays. It is multiculturalists, for example, who are the biggest champions of the Government's massive expansion of "faith" schools, where children will be segregated according to parental superstition and often taught the most literalist and cruel strain of a "faith".

What will girls and gay pupils be taught there? Will they have Sura 4, verse 34 drilled into them, along with the passages from the hadith where Mohammed calls for gay people to be executed? We know Catholic schools often push the most vile aspects of their faith at children; why should Muslim schools be different?

We desperately need to empower Muslim women to reinterpret the Koran in less literalist and vicious ways, or to leave their religion all together, as they wish. But multiculturalism hobbles them before they even begin, by saying they should stick to the "authentic" culture represented by the imams.

Yes, it would be easy to keep our heads down, go with this multicultural drift, and congratulate ourselves on our tolerance of the fanatically intolerant. But I can give you a few good reasons not to. Their names are Nishal and Ibthahale and Zeynep and Fatima, and, yes, they were women.

http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/johann_hari/article2496657.ece

[Nuc]

SICK SICK SICK SICK SICK!

That is disgusting! When there is a conflict between the law of the land and religion, religion should take a back seat. Especially that idiotic religion.

I've been through this lately in Sri Lanka. There if you're a Muslim you can have four wives legally, but if you're Buddhist, Hindu or Christian, one. They're placing Islam before the English justice their system is based on. SICK SICK SICK SICK SICK!

[stephanie]

I am shocked...how the women of our United States can sit back and allow this.?????

[Pale Rider]

I think islam is a sickness. The whole damn religon is a farce, and should be outlawed.

[stephanie]

I think Islam is a sickness. The whole damn religion is a farce, and should be outlawed.

Where are us Women???

[Birdzeye]

I am shocked...how the women of our United States can sit back and allow this.?????

The women in this country have their hands full with our own problem of battered women. I would hope that the German women are doing something to right this wrong in their own country.

[diuretic]

We in the west, yes we nominal Christians and secularists manage to murder our women in domestic violence, don't bloody well kid yourself it's limited to Islamic nations.

[Birdzeye]

What you say is sad but true, Diuretic. A former battered wife, Charlotte Fedders, wrote a book, "Shattered Dreams," about her life living with a violent husband, and how hard he made it for her to get divorced from him.

[diuretic]

I remember that book, I didnt read it but I do remember it got a lot of publicity and rightly so.

The sight of a dead woman, battered to death by her husband is something you don't forget.

[Lightning Waltz]

Why? Because the woman, as a Muslim, should have "expected" it, the judge explained. She read out passages from the Koran to show that Muslim husbands have the "right to use corporal punishment". Look at Sura 4, verse 34, she said to Nishal, where the Koran says he can hammer you. That's your culture. Goodbye, and enjoy your beatings.

Bizzare and horrible. I wonder what this judge does for Christian women that come before her...

Deuteronomy (22:13-21) -- If a man marries a woman, decides he doesn't like her, he can declare her not a virgin at the time of marriage. The father is required to somehow prove that she was a virgin, but if he cannot, the woman is stoned to death.

Romans (1:27) -- the natural use of women is sex.

Exod. (21:7) -- talks about how much a man can sell is daughter into slavery for.

Perhaps this wasn't a case of misguided "multiculturalism", but anti-Muslim bigotry.

[darin]

Bizzare and horrible. I wonder what this judge does for Christian women that come before her...

Deuteronomy (22:13-21) -- If a man marries a woman, decides he doesn't like her, he can declare her not a virgin at the time of marriage. The father is required to somehow prove that she was a virgin, but if he cannot, the woman is stoned to death.

That is not a Christian Law. And Just a couple verses down, you CONVENIENTLY don't mention laws protecting the innocent:


25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death.

We know of hundreds? at least MANY stories where Raped Muslim women -TODAY! Not THOUSANDS of years ago as was the case in some Biblical times - are beaten or KILLED because of the sin committed against her.



Romans (1:27) -- the natural use of women is sex.

No - Not even close:


27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

That verse says 'natural relations' with women...it's a verse talking about homosexuality - where men are so Screwed up in the head, they 'abandon 'NATURAL' relations, those with WOMEN, and commit those acts w/ one-another.



Exod. (21:7) -- talks about how much a man can sell is daughter into slavery for.

Again - Not even CLOSE. In the time this part of the bible was written Slavery was a common practice of the entire known world. That passage is on guidelines for having/owning slaves. That verse is actually a PROTECTION of female slaves. Here's the verse, in-context.


7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, [b] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter.



Perhaps this wasn't a case of misguided "multiculturalism", but anti-Muslim bigotry.


Perhaps your out-of-context slighting is a case of anti-christian ignorance?

[Lightning Waltz]

That is not a Christian Law. And Just a couple verses down, you CONVENIENTLY don't mention laws protecting the innocent:

But that doesn't dispute what I wrote... It IS true that in the Bible, according to the passage that I cited, a man can divorce his wife claiming she wasn't a virgin, and if she isn't proven to be a virgin by her father, she will be stoned to death.


We know of hundreds? at least MANY stories where Raped Muslim women -TODAY! Not THOUSANDS of years ago as was the case in some Biblical times - are beaten or KILLED because of the sin committed against her.

No doubt. Are you saying that Christian women aren't raped?


Again - Not even CLOSE. In the time this part of the bible was written Slavery was a common practice of the entire known world. That passage is on guidelines for having/owning slaves. That verse is actually a PROTECTION of female slaves. Here's the verse, in-context.

So now you want to put it into historical context of the book and not necessarily of what a practicing Christian should do today... Hmm... Why don't you give Muslims that benefit of the doubt?


Perhaps your out-of-context slighting is a case of anti-christian ignorance?

Could be. But I think it is just as bigoted and ignorant to cherry-pick verses from the Koran...and that was my point. ;)

[loosecannon]

The thread topic is a distortion.

You all believe in your own culture just not the culture of others.

You do not want your culture to bear the legal recognition and enforcement of other culture's laws while those from other cultures live inside your nation states.

Great, no prob.

But you should then respect that they do not want YOUR culture to be honored inside their nation states.

In essence, most of you are for your culture and the rest of the worlds cultures be damned.

How many cultures has western society raped, murdered, enslaved, destroyed? Many!

Do you favor the expansion of christianity around the world? Perfect example.

Are you opposed to the expansion of Islam, Wicca, hinduism, buddhism? Another fine example.

Do you believe other cultures should accept your ideas about marriage, equality, justice, law? Another.

As a rule Americans believe that the rest of the world should adopt our culture. And our culture is among the newest and most vacant of them all.

Diversity be damned!! Do it OUR way Heathen!

[darin]

But that doesn't dispute what I wrote... It IS true that in the Bible, according to the passage that I cited, a man can divorce his wife claiming she wasn't a virgin, and if she isn't proven to be a virgin by her father, she will be stoned to death.


No - he Can't. That's not a part of ANY christian faith.



No doubt. Are you saying that Christian women aren't raped?


How the hell could you think i'm saying that? weird.



So now you want to put it into historical context of the book and not necessarily of what a practicing Christian should do today... Hmm... Why don't you give Muslims that benefit of the doubt?


Because Muslims are still DOING it.



Could be. But I think it is just as bigoted and ignorant to cherry-pick verses from the Koran...and that was my point. ;)

You gave flat-out-wrong examples in two of three of your scriptures. The topic is, MUSLIMS are doing one of two things:

Muslims are cherry-picking scriptures and THEY are using it to justify their barbaric actions.

If they are NOT, then they are barbarians BECAUSE they understand the context - which is probably more damning to Islam.

[manu1959]

sick what has happend to these women .....

[krisy]

The thread topic is a distortion.

You all believe in your own culture just not the culture of others.

You do not want your culture to bear the legal recognition and enforcement of other culture's laws while those from other cultures live inside your nation states.

Great, no prob.

But you should then respect that they do not want YOUR culture to be honored inside their nation states.

In essence, most of you are for your culture and the rest of the worlds cultures be damned.

How many cultures has western society raped, murdered, enslaved, destroyed? Many!

Do you favor the expansion of christianity around the world? Perfect example.

Are you opposed to the expansion of Islam, Wicca, hinduism, buddhism? Another fine example.

Do you believe other cultures should accept your ideas about marriage, equality, justice, law? Another.

As a rule Americans believe that the rest of the world should adopt our culture. And our culture is among the newest and most vacant of them all.

Diversity be damned!! Do it OUR way Heathen!

You are saying we are wrong because we do not agree with women being beaten and any kind of court being o.k. with that? It has to do with having some level of civility. I don't think everyone needs to adopt our culture in any way. I do believe however that ALL women have the right to live and pursue happiness. They can live their lives and marry etc how they want,it's no concern of mine,but how can a person be against the war because it is so awful for human rights,yet be o.k. with the beating and stoning of women because we don't want to interfere with there culture?

[loosecannon]

I don't think everyone needs to adopt our culture in any way.

Yes you do, see below


I do believe however that ALL women have the right to live and pursue happiness....

yet be o.k. with the beating and stoning of women because we don't want to interfere with there culture?

Because in their culture they get to decide what they believe. You don't have to follow their example or agree with what they do.

But if you impose your beliefs on them you are opposed to their rights to self determine.

The article is about Germany. Why should you be imposing your values on German society?

[krisy]

Yes you do, see below



Because in their culture they get to decide what they believe. You don't have to follow their example or agree with what they do.

But if you impose your beliefs on them you are opposed to their rights to self determine.

The article is about Germany. Why should you be imposing your values on German society?

You make a good point. I guess the only "belief" I would impose would be a basic human right to live in peace,free will.

[gabosaurus]

So you expect EVERY country in the world to conform with "western values"?
What about OUR values? The U.S. is a country of radical fundamentalists, polygamists, cults, snake worshipers, atheists, satanists and who knows what else.
Change has to come from within. It is not our place to go around slapping every culture around.

[krisy]

So you expect EVERY country in the world to conform with "western values"?
What about OUR values? The U.S. is a country of radical fundamentalists, polygamists, cults, snake worshipers, atheists, satanists and who knows what else.
Change has to come from within. It is not our place to go around slapping every culture around.


Your blowing things out of proportion. I have never said they have to eat like we do,wear our clothes,marry the way we do,or practice Christianity. I think it is a basic human right to live freely....period. It has to do with human decensy,not culture.

[Nienna]

Your blowing things out of proportion. I have never said they have to eat like we do,wear our clothes,marry the way we do,or practice Christianity. I think it is a basic human right to live freely....period. It has to do with human decensy,not culture.

But where do ideas about human decency come from? What no one wants to admit is that there is a basic Truth that underlies all morality/culture. It's why everyone knows when something is wrong, although they may choose not to admit it, and may even choose to practice it.

[gabosaurus]

But where do ideas about human decency come from? What no one wants to admit is that there is a basic Truth that underlies all morality/culture. It's why everyone knows when something is wrong, although they may choose not to admit it, and may even choose to practice it.

:clap:

[-Cp]

The U.S. is a country of radical fundamentalists, polygamists, cults, snake worshipers, atheists, satanists and who knows what else.

:link: :link:

[avatar4321]

sick what has happend to these women .....

What's sicker are the people that are trying to defend it by lying about "you doing it to"

[avatar4321]

Yes you do, see below



Because in their culture they get to decide what they believe. You don't have to follow their example or agree with what they do.

But if you impose your beliefs on them you are opposed to their rights to self determine.

The article is about Germany. Why should you be imposing your values on German society?

Truth is truth regardless of whether people believe it or not. Speaking out against truth does not impose it on others. You are scared. its understandable.

Doing what is right is not a cultural matter. Nor do you do it by "letting people be". You are as guilty as the people who commit those horrible crimes if you do nothing to stop them.

[avatar4321]

So you expect EVERY country in the world to conform with "western values"?
What about OUR values? The U.S. is a country of radical fundamentalists, polygamists, cults, snake worshipers, atheists, satanists and who knows what else.
Change has to come from within. It is not our place to go around slapping every culture around.

Yeah it is. If we don't do it who will? If we dont try to change our culture who will? If we dont persuade people to a higher way of living who will?

Your apathy in the matter is rather scary. Do you have any compassion whatsoever for these victims?

[loosecannon]

I think it is a basic human right to live freely....period. It has to do with human decensy,not culture.

And yet this belief did not exist in western society until 200 years ago.

[loosecannon]

If we don't do it who will? If we dont try to change our culture who will? If we dont persuade people to a higher way of living who will?



The article in question is about GERMAN culture. Not ours

[loosecannon]

Truth is truth regardless of whether people believe it or not. Speaking out against truth does not impose it on others. You are scared. its understandable.

This made no sense


Doing what is right is not a cultural matter. Nor do you do it by "letting people be". You are as guilty as the people who commit those horrible crimes if you do nothing to stop them.


You have no right to impose your ideas upon other nations and cultures regardless of the fact that you are convinced that you know better then they do how it is that they should live.

Esp not if you consider freedom a basic right.

Freedom to self determine makes their choice none of your business.

Butt out.

[Trigg]

Yes you do, see below



Because in their culture they get to decide what they believe. You don't have to follow their example or agree with what they do.

But if you impose your beliefs on them you are opposed to their rights to self determine.

The article is about Germany. Why should you be imposing your values on German society?


We arn't imposing our culture on them as far as womens rights.

The women in these societies are fighting against the rapes and honor killings also. Right now today women in those societies are fighting for their place in the country. They want to go to collage, have a say about who they marry and have to right to defend themselves in court.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/6596363.stm

The other feminist activists arrested on March 4 have since been released.

In addition to being activists for women's equality in Iran, Sadr and Abbasgholizadeh organized a campaign against stoning as a form of punishment for adultery in Iran.
http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=10198

[Birdzeye]

Your blowing things out of proportion. I have never said they have to eat like we do,wear our clothes,marry the way we do,or practice Christianity. I think it is a basic human right to live freely....period. It has to do with human decensy,not culture.

That's what I find so outrageous about this story. It's a case of culture trumps human rights. It seems to me that in civilized societies, it should be the other way around.

[Abbey Marie]

Does Germany's Constitution not decree a separation of church and state?
The court ruling would seem to violate that principle in spades. The law against battery and in favor of divorce should be followed no matter what, and they are overriding it to honor a religious practice.

[Birdzeye]

I'm not familiar with the German constitution or German law, and because I have enough on my plate right now, I don't feel like researching that area.

However, since Germany is a democracy, I hope that the people there will do something to get their government to rectify this wrong.

[avatar4321]

That's what I find so outrageous about this story. It's a case of culture trumps human rights. It seems to me that in civilized societies, it should be the other way around.

Thing is human rights are not clearly defined and depend highly on the culture.

Its because of our culture that we recognize human rights.

[Birdzeye]

Thing is human rights are not clearly defined and depend highly on the culture.

Its because of our culture that we recognize human rights.

That's true, and I thought it was true in Germany. But apparently I was wrong.

[avatar4321]

That's true, and I thought it was true in Germany. But apparently I was wrong.

I believe some cultural traits are superior to otherones. Which is why I can't accept multiculturalism as it currently stands. There are many good and decent things from all cultures, but there are also many evil things as well and if we arent actively trying to overcome evil things in all cultures, then what claim do we have on being good?

[diuretic]

That's what I find so outrageous about this story. It's a case of culture trumps human rights. It seems to me that in civilized societies, it should be the other way around.

I very much agree. I know nothing about German law. I do know that in my country in the past attempts have been made to have contemporary Australian law co-exist with Aboriginal customary law. So far it hasn't worked out.

The difficulty - as the article points out - is the taking into consideration the cultural factors in mitigation. Well for mine that should be expressly prohibited by statute.

But there's something deeper here. It exposes the criminal law for what it is. The criminal law doesn't give a toss about you or me. The criminal law is about the state's interests. Despite efforts at including victims in the system (eg victim impact statements) not much has changed for the victim. The criminal law system focusses on the defendant, not the victim. It's the state looking after its own interests.

[diuretic]

That's true, and I thought it was true in Germany. But apparently I was wrong.

No you weren't wrong - http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/GG.htm

But on sentencing see here:


Section 46 Principles for Determining Punishment

(1) The guilt of the perpetrator is the foundation for determining punishment. The effects which the punishment will be expected to have on the perpetrator's future life in society shall be considered.

(2) In its determination the court shall counterbalance the circumstances which speak for and against the perpetrator. In doing so consideration shall be given in particular to:

the motives and aims of the perpetrator;

the state of mind reflected in the act and the willfulness involved in its commission;

the extent of breach of any duties;

the manner of execution and the culpable consequences of the act;

the perpetrator's prior history, his personal and financial circumstances; as well as

his conduct after the act, particularly his efforts to make restitution for the harm caused as well as the perpetrator's efforts to achieve mediation with the aggrieved party.

(3) Circumstances which are already statutory elements of the offense may not be considered.

http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/StGB.htm#46

[Gaffer]

Yes you do, see below



Because in their culture they get to decide what they believe. You don't have to follow their example or agree with what they do.

But if you impose your beliefs on them you are opposed to their rights to self determine.

The article is about Germany. Why should you be imposing your values on German society?

If they want to live in another country then they have to adapt to that country and assimilate. That means abiding by that countries laws, not bringing their own and expecting everyone to accept their laws.

[diuretic]

If they want to live in another country then they have to adapt to that country and assimilate. That means abiding by that countries laws, not bringing their own and expecting everyone to accept their laws.

Totally agree. Where a custom doesn't infringe on their new country's law, fine, where a certain cultural practice (eg female circumcision) is prohibited then bad luck, can't be done and the legislature should resist blandishments to change the law - it was there for a reason.