Santelli's Simple Answer to Deficit: 'Stop Spending'

[red states rule]

Such a simple answer to a question that many in DC fail to grasp. Rick Santelli was responding to a liberal who said there was no other solution to the deficits except rasing taxes


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[Sweetchuck]

I'm not adverse to spending, even deficit spending. A common concept in building business is that you have to spend money to make money.

My concern, and it's a huge concern, is that we're spending for the sake of spending.

If the country were ran like a major corporation, EVERY spending dollar would be measured in terms of return on investment. Want to buy that huge piece of equipment? Financially determine that it will provide a return that will pay for itself over a short period of time and provide continued returns.

We're not even doing a fucking budget - that is how wrong our level of spending is. What is going to infrastructure, investment (in jobs, technology - shit that will give us continued returns) and how much of our current spending is being pissed away?

Somebody smarter than me has to have some idea where this money is going and what impact it will have going down the road.

We need to privatize our federal government.

[red states rule]

Santelli was the guy who was the first guy on TV to actually get pissed off over Obama's policies and I credit him with starting the Tea Party


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[bullypulpit]

OK...Let's stop spending. Lay off fire-fighters, police officers, disband the border patrol. And while we're at it, shut down the air traffic control network, no more money to maintain highways, bridges and rail systems. Take away grandma and grandpa's medicare, and anyone on long term life support on the government dime, the plug's being pulled tomorrow. And forget about those dams, levees and flood control systems maintained by the Army Corps of Engineers. Let's see...what else? Oh yeah...disband the military, abandon the troops in Afghniistan, Iraq and elsewhere. Oh, and the prison system gets shut down too. All them inmates back on the streets lookin' to drink your liquor and have their way with you, your wife and your kids.

That's just some of the consequences of this "Simple Answer". Simple answers for simple minds, Red. That's all the GOP and it's tea-bagger cronies have to offer.

[Sweetchuck]

OK...Let's stop spending. Lay off fire-fighters, police officers, disband the border patrol. And while we're at it, shut down the air traffic control network, no more money to maintain highways, bridges and rail systems. Take away grandma and grandpa's medicare, and anyone on long term life support on the government dime, the plug's being pulled tomorrow. And forget about those dams, levees and flood control systems maintained by the Army Corps of Engineers. Let's see...what else? Oh yeah...disband the military, abandon the troops in Afghniistan, Iraq and elsewhere. Oh, and the prison system gets shut down too. All them inmates back on the streets lookin' to drink your liquor and have their way with you, your wife and your kids.

That's just some of the consequences of this "Simple Answer". Simple answers for simple minds, Red. That's all the GOP and it's tea-bagger cronies have to offer.

How much of what you stated represents the staggering, incremental increase in spending?

Like we didn't spend money on that shit before we were measuring our spending deficit in the trillions?

Think before you post.

[Insein]

OK...Let's stop spending. Lay off fire-fighters, police officers, disband the border patrol. And while we're at it, shut down the air traffic control network, no more money to maintain highways, bridges and rail systems. Take away grandma and grandpa's medicare, and anyone on long term life support on the government dime, the plug's being pulled tomorrow. And forget about those dams, levees and flood control systems maintained by the Army Corps of Engineers. Let's see...what else? Oh yeah...disband the military, abandon the troops in Afghniistan, Iraq and elsewhere. Oh, and the prison system gets shut down too. All them inmates back on the streets lookin' to drink your liquor and have their way with you, your wife and your kids.

That's just some of the consequences of this "Simple Answer". Simple answers for simple minds, Red. That's all the GOP and it's tea-bagger cronies have to offer.

This is why your argument holds no water. You automatically jump to the extreme example. We need a basic infrastructure. We need to maintain at a cost of living increase every year. However, we have hundreds of billions of dollars worth of things we DON'T need. Why don't we start there and see what we can afford to live without. You know like millions of Americans are doing right now. Figuring out what we can afford to get rid of. Do I cut out my TV bill or just skip the child care? Is my cell phone too high or do I need to eat this month? Notice a difference between luxury and neccessity. Same thing applies to government.

There needs to be a military first and foremost. There needs to be a highway system because that keeps the economy moving through goods and services and people getting to work. There needs to be a basic police and fire system at a local level. Federal funding for either is pointless because what is someone in Washington going to care about someone's house burning down in Des Moines?

What we don't need is federal money going to pet projects to protect endangered species that are neither a natural resource nor serve as a primary part of an ecosystem for our natural resources while at the same time cutting off a valuable resource we do need. We don't need to have multi-million dollar airports built in East bumblefuck, PA for all of 67 people in the area. We don't need Massive welfare handouts to lifelong leaches and extended unemployment benefits for people who haven't worked in 3 years.

So keep towing the party line, comrade Bully. I'm sure they will have a special place for you in the People's Republic of America.

[Insein]

How much of what you stated represents the staggering, incremental increase in spending?

Like we didn't spend money on that shit before we were measuring our spending deficit in the trillions?

Think before you post.

Not really something he does. There are a few canned responses he has involving kool-aid and neo-cons. Thats about it.

[red states rule]

OK...Let's stop spending. Lay off fire-fighters, police officers, disband the border patrol. And while we're at it, shut down the air traffic control network, no more money to maintain highways, bridges and rail systems. Take away grandma and grandpa's medicare, and anyone on long term life support on the government dime, the plug's being pulled tomorrow. And forget about those dams, levees and flood control systems maintained by the Army Corps of Engineers. Let's see...what else? Oh yeah...disband the military, abandon the troops in Afghniistan, Iraq and elsewhere. Oh, and the prison system gets shut down too. All them inmates back on the streets lookin' to drink your liquor and have their way with you, your wife and your kids.

That's just some of the consequences of this "Simple Answer". Simple answers for simple minds, Red. That's all the GOP and it's tea-bagger cronies have to offer.

Once again the Southpark Liberal pluus an old worn out play from his dog eared playbook

Lets take a look at what Dems have spent our tax dollars on to "stimulate" the economy

There was a report on the top 102 examples of waste from the stimulus bill BP. I can't list all of them but I can give you a few and the total




10: Investing in nation-wide wind power (but majority of money has gone to foreign companies) ($2 billion)

9: Resurfacing a tennis court in Montana ($50,000)

8: University in Indiana studying why young men do not like to wear condoms ($221,355)

7: Funds for Massachusetts roadway construction to companies that have defrauded taxpayers, polluted the environment and have paid tens of thousands of dollars in fines for violating workplace safety laws (millions)

6: Sending 11 students and 4 teachers from an Arkansas university to the U.N. climate change convention in Copenhagen, using almost 54,000 lbs of carbon dioxide from air travel alone ($50,000)

5: Storytelling festival in Utah ($15,000)

4: Door mats to the Department of the Army in Texas ($14,675)

3: University in New York researching young adults who drink malt liquor and smoke pot ($389,357)

2: Solar panels for climbing gym in Colorado ($157,800)

1: Grant for one Massachusetts university for "robobees" (miniature flying robot bees) ($2 million)

GRAND TOTAL: $4,891,645,229

http://hannity.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/03/12/waste-102-the-final-list/




Before that report there was waste 101 with 101 examples of pork

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3931732/waste-101-nos-9---1


But you are not interested in knowing what opur hard earned tax dolars are spent on BP are you?

Much like Chucky Schumer is not


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[DragonStryk72]

OK...Let's stop spending. Lay off fire-fighters, police officers, disband the border patrol. And while we're at it, shut down the air traffic control network, no more money to maintain highways, bridges and rail systems. Take away grandma and grandpa's medicare, and anyone on long term life support on the government dime, the plug's being pulled tomorrow. And forget about those dams, levees and flood control systems maintained by the Army Corps of Engineers. Let's see...what else? Oh yeah...disband the military, abandon the troops in Afghniistan, Iraq and elsewhere. Oh, and the prison system gets shut down too. All them inmates back on the streets lookin' to drink your liquor and have their way with you, your wife and your kids.

That's just some of the consequences of this "Simple Answer". Simple answers for simple minds, Red. That's all the GOP and it's tea-bagger cronies have to offer.

Really, that the only two possible options? And again with calling me a teabagger. It's tiresome. It's amazing how I can make an other than A or B choice, and yet you can't. You seem physically unable to conscience that ability, unless you wanna prove me wrong.

Use some sense, we're not saying to lay off the firefighters and cops (BS analogy anyhow, since, oh yeah, the states pay them, and this is a talk about the federal deficit). Second, we can't first look at all the extra programs that are out there being paid into? We have to fire the cops and firefighters? See, again, you looked and saw only 2 possible answers to the problem. there is never a median with you.

[red states rule]

BTW BP, I covered these topics in other threads, but it applies here as well

More on how the Feds are pissing thru our tax dollars and why many of us are fed up with it - and refuse to support tax increases while this kind of spending is going on





The Internal Revenue Service doled out more than $27 million in fraudulent claims for the home buyers' tax credit on returns for 2008, including claims by prisoners serving life sentences and people who purchased their home before the credit was in effect, a U.S. Treasury Department report said Wednesday.

The IRS paid out $9.1 million to 1,295 people who were in jail at the time they said they bought a home, and 241 of those prisoners were serving life sentences, according to the report from the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration, which monitors the Internal Revenue Service.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100623-710839.html





and now Obama and the unions are talking about tax dolars to bail out union pensions because they are going broke. No wonder states, and unions pensions. are going broke




Sarah Zatik retired two years ago, at the age of 53, but she never stopped working.

The Parma schools superintendent immediately was rehired into the same job. It was all pre-arranged, just a matter of paperwork.

The bookkeeping move brought Zatik a big financial benefit, despite a $15,000 cut in salary after being rehired. By retiring, she could start collecting well over $100,000 a year in retirement payments from the state in addition to her $158,000 superintendent's pay. Thanks to a state retirement system that allows retirement at a young age, Zatik can collect both a paycheck and her retirement payments for 12 years before she hits the standard retirement age of 65.

She is a member in an exclusive club of double-dipping superintendents, who retire and return to their same jobs or rotate to other school districts.

An analysis by Ohio's eight largest newspapers found:

One in four public school leaders in Ohio's 614 districts bring home the bacon twice.

Allowing superintendents to retire early halts their contributions into the fund and pulls millions of dollars out -- while a variety of factors threaten the fund's long-term financial health.

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2010/06/one_in_four_public_school_lead.html

[PostmodernProphet]

OK...Let's stop spending. Lay off fire-fighters, police officers, disband the border patrol. And while we're at it, shut down the air traffic control network, no more money to maintain highways, bridges and rail systems. Take away grandma and grandpa's medicare, and anyone on long term life support on the government dime, the plug's being pulled tomorrow. And forget about those dams, levees and flood control systems maintained by the Army Corps of Engineers. Let's see...what else? Oh yeah...disband the military, abandon the troops in Afghniistan, Iraq and elsewhere. Oh, and the prison system gets shut down too. All them inmates back on the streets lookin' to drink your liquor and have their way with you, your wife and your kids.


works for me....assuming of course that before you did these things you had already stopped doing all the stupid things the government does.....or were you planning on continuing to do those.....

[Kathianne]

OK...Let's stop spending. Lay off fire-fighters, police officers, disband the border patrol. And while we're at it, shut down the air traffic control network, no more money to maintain highways, bridges and rail systems. Take away grandma and grandpa's medicare, and anyone on long term life support on the government dime, the plug's being pulled tomorrow. And forget about those dams, levees and flood control systems maintained by the Army Corps of Engineers. Let's see...what else? Oh yeah...disband the military, abandon the troops in Afghniistan, Iraq and elsewhere. Oh, and the prison system gets shut down too. All them inmates back on the streets lookin' to drink your liquor and have their way with you, your wife and your kids.

That's just some of the consequences of this "Simple Answer". Simple answers for simple minds, Red. That's all the GOP and it's tea-bagger cronies have to offer.

Bully, that type of 'worst case scenario' is playing out in states and cities that have followed the Keynesian economic models for years. It's not worked, is not working, will not work. Whether we are addressing a small city, large city, or state all need to work within a reasonable budget. During 'good times' the best run built up reserves that have allowed them to weather these bad times with reasonable adjustments, unnoticed by citizens.

I live in a fairly conservative country outside of Chicago. Most of the cities, (pop. range from a few thousand to over 150k, most in the 25k-45k range.) Out of the 40+ municipalities only 3 have had to cut back on the number of working personnel, they've been able to reduce costs through retirements and resignations-most not replaced. They've reduced spending on training, administrative costs.

One example: Our Award winning http://www.wheatonparkdistrict.com/pgs/about/default.htmlis no longer sending glossy brochures, rather post cards that inform residents that they may pick up lower cost brochures at the district office, police and fire stations, post office and the public library. They added a notice on the postcard that this was being done to conserve their resources for programs, maintenance, and staffing.

This is responsible local government. Yes, there are warnings that the reserves are running low, http://www.wheatonlibrary.org/LI_Hours.html is running this summer only 5 days a week, closed on Fridays and Sundays. For the foreseeable future they will remain closed on Fridays, but reopen on Sundays during the school year. They did this in consultation with staff and board, so that no layoffs would be necessary. All employees will take 2 unpaid days off a month.

This is how spending is cut, but only possible when reserves are there and not wasted.

[bullypulpit]

Yes...It was an extreme example. But that is the political landscape today. There is no middle ground. Politicians, particularly the GOP throw out these bones and raw meat to the right wing-nut/tea-bagger base to keep them in a frenzy. And sure enough, Red, you snapped it up and regurgitated it in true right-wing tool form.

And Insein...Where d'you think state and local governments get the funds to pay for police, fire-fighters and infrastructure? State and local taxes and funds from the federal government. And if you want to continue to have a military, you have to have funds to pay for it. Ad where do you get those funds? Taxes. After staring two wars, without raising the taxes to pay for them...After cutting taxes for the wealthiest Americans...After passing programs like Medicare Part D without the funding to pay for them, we were left with a mountain of debt, largely borrowed from foreign powers which might not have America's best interests at heart. Stop playing the fool.

Dragon...I'm sorry if you were offended by the tea-bagger reference, but that is the audience which the GOP playing to at the moment.

Kathianne, dear lady, Keynesian economics is not and has never been the problem. What the GOP is pushing is pure Chicago School economics as taught and championed by Milton Friedman. If you want to see the results, Look to Cuba, Chile, Iran, and any other nation where democratically elected governments have been overthrown because they threatened the profits of outside corporate interests. You can start <a href=http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine>HERE</a>.

Government spending is not the problem. The power of corporate interests has so corrupted the budgetary process that the interests of we the people are all but ignored and forgotten. And while there are those on the left who kowtow to these corporate interests, it is the right as embodied by today's GOP that champions these interests. It is the GOP that has fought tooth and nail against real financial reform...Regulation of industry...Against extending unemployment benefits on the pretext that those who still didn't have jobs weren't looking. The only ones who can root out this corporate influence is...WE THE PEOPLE. Which has been the source of every scrap, jot and tittle of progress and justice in this country. Wake up fer chrissakes.

[Kathianne]

Yes...It was an extreme example. But that is the political landscape today. There is no middle ground. Politicians, particularly the GOP throw out these bones and raw meat to the right wing-nut/tea-bagger base to keep them in a frenzy. And sure enough, Red, you snapped it up and regurgitated it in true right-wing tool form.

And Insein...Where d'you think state and local governments get the funds to pay for police, fire-fighters and infrastructure? State and local taxes and funds from the federal government. And if you want to continue to have a military, you have to have funds to pay for it. Ad where do you get those funds? Taxes. After staring two wars, without raising the taxes to pay for them...After cutting taxes for the wealthiest Americans...After passing programs like Medicare Part D without the funding to pay for them, we were left with a mountain of debt, largely borrowed from foreign powers which might not have America's best interests at heart. Stop playing the fool.

Dragon...I'm sorry if you were offended by the tea-bagger reference, but that is the audience which the GOP playing to at the moment.

Kathianne, dear lady, Keynesian economics is not and has never been the problem. What the GOP is pushing is pure Chicago School economics as taught and championed by Milton Friedman. If you want to see the results, Look to Cuba, Chile, Iran, and any other nation where democratically elected governments have been overthrown because they threatened the profits of outside corporate interests. You can start <a href=http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine>HERE</a>.

Government spending is not the problem. The power of corporate interests has so corrupted the budgetary process that the interests of we the people are all but ignored and forgotten. And while there are those on the left who kowtow to these corporate interests, it is the right as embodied by today's GOP that champions these interests. It is the GOP that has fought tooth and nail against real financial reform...Regulation of industry...Against extending unemployment benefits on the pretext that those who still didn't have jobs weren't looking. The only ones who can root out this corporate influence is...WE THE PEOPLE. Which has been the source of every scrap, jot and tittle of progress and justice in this country. Wake up fer chrissakes.

Seriously Bully? You ignored the basis of my post and just keep repeating 'The GOP...'. It's not working. Check out Maywood, CA. Hell check out the state of CA or state of IL-corrupted Keynesian economies for years. Spend, spend, spend. Corruption? Oh yeah, on levels that boggle the mind. There are reasons they are imploding first.

[Insein]

Yes...It was an extreme example. But that is the political landscape today. There is no middle ground. Politicians, particularly the GOP throw out these bones and raw meat to the right wing-nut/tea-bagger base to keep them in a frenzy. And sure enough, Red, you snapped it up and regurgitated it in true right-wing tool form.

And Insein...Where d'you think state and local governments get the funds to pay for police, fire-fighters and infrastructure? State and local taxes and funds from the federal government. And if you want to continue to have a military, you have to have funds to pay for it. Ad where do you get those funds? Taxes. After staring two wars, without raising the taxes to pay for them...After cutting taxes for the wealthiest Americans...After passing programs like Medicare Part D without the funding to pay for them, we were left with a mountain of debt, largely borrowed from foreign powers which might not have America's best interests at heart. Stop playing the fool.


Wrong.
http://www.drugtrendstoday.com/2008/09/medicare-part-d.html


According to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), the total costs for the Medicare Part D prescription drug program based on actuary estimates will be $37.2 billion in 2008 and $46.4 billion in 2009. When the drug benefit was being debated in Congress, however, the actuary estimated the benefit would cost $68 billion in 2008 and $74 billion in 2009. Based on these estimates, Medicare Part D is currently operating at 37-45% under initial projections.

Further, officials at CMS report that monthly premiums for Medicare prescription drug plans will average $28 in 2009 – a 37% decrease from $44.12 when the benefit was created in 2003 – translating into significant savings for the Federal government as well as beneficiaries.

Try again. Amazing. Republicans create a handout and it comes in under budget. I would prefer not to have the handout at all but if your going to do it, do it right. Don't take money and spend it on NOTHING.

As for the rest of the post, did you ignore the part where I said we need a basic infrastructure? Every country does. Its the extra crap we don't need. Why does it have to be either we cut our basic infrastructure or we tax the people to oblivion? Why can't we cut all the frivelous projects that benefit few and hurt many financially? Some of those projects are a luxury when the economy is good but when we are at the point we are now, its time to tighten the belt. Anything not useful to helping American people to keep more of their money in their pockets needs to go.

[gabosaurus]

"Stop spending" is a good idea. Let's withdraw from the Middle East now and cut military spending by 50 percent.

[DragonStryk72]

Yes...It was an extreme example. But that is the political landscape today. There is no middle ground. Politicians, particularly the GOP throw out these bones and raw meat to the right wing-nut/tea-bagger base to keep them in a frenzy. And sure enough, Red, you snapped it up and regurgitated it in true right-wing tool form.

Right, but when you do it, it's "okay". Their behavior necessitates your behavior? It does not, you are not required to sink to that level, and if you think that you do, you maybe need to think about the path you're on.

And Insein...Where d'you think state and local governments get the funds to pay for police, fire-fighters and infrastructure? State and local taxes and funds from the federal government. And if you want to continue to have a military, you have to have funds to pay for it. Ad where do you get those funds? Taxes. After staring two wars, without raising the taxes to pay for them...After cutting taxes for the wealthiest Americans...After passing programs like Medicare Part D without the funding to pay for them, we were left with a mountain of debt, largely borrowed from foreign powers which might not have America's best interests at heart. Stop playing the fool.

Again, this goes back to my question about getting rid of the vast majority of wasteful spending, and NOT acting like there's only an A or B solution. You again go to the extremist point, even when backpedaling.

Dragon...I'm sorry if you were offended by the tea-bagger reference, but that is the audience which the GOP playing to at the moment.

I'm conflicted about arguing this point, because I dislike the clearest example to use here, but I see no better way right now, so apologies on that: If I were to walk into a room full of black people and say nigger, regardless of if was talking the guys that try to rob me, nearly every one of those men would be offended, because I was using a slur. It's really that simple, BP, is that you need to stop using the word, because this time, you were talking about me personally. I do want the government to spend less.

Kathianne, dear lady, Keynesian economics is not and has never been the problem. What the GOP is pushing is pure Chicago School economics as taught and championed by Milton Friedman. If you want to see the results, Look to Cuba, Chile, Iran, and any other nation where democratically elected governments have been overthrown because they threatened the profits of outside corporate interests. You can start <a href=http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine>HERE</a>.

you're completely correct, actually. I have absolutely no argument to this point, because this exact point is what caused the Tea Party to form, so you might want to stop lumping them in with the GOP. The GOP has become the same amount of spender that the worst left-leaning Dems have become. like ron Raul said, the only difference is that at least the Dems are being honest about taxing and spending.

Government spending is not the problem. The power of corporate interests has so corrupted the budgetary process that the interests of we the people are all but ignored and forgotten. And while there are those on the left who kowtow to these corporate interests, it is the right as embodied by today's GOP that champions these interests. It is the GOP that has fought tooth and nail against real financial reform...Regulation of industry...Against extending unemployment benefits on the pretext that those who still didn't have jobs weren't looking. The only ones who can root out this corporate influence is...WE THE PEOPLE. Which has been the source of every scrap, jot and tittle of progress and justice in this country. Wake up fer chrissakes.


How do you propose we tell GM, Ford, and Chrysler to manage their money properly when we set no example in our leadership? How do you expect BP to take proper responsibility and responsible action when our government takes none itself? Part of those corporate interests that are plaguing now are a direct result of the trillion dollar bailout, along with Bush's idiotic run that tripled the size of the federal, tripling as well the budget to keep it going. The GOP however is not really being backed by anyone on here anymore, so throwing them up really doesn't serve a purpose.

Part of the reason we the people do not do anything more is because of the over-involvement of government. A classic example is the BP oil spill, where states were held up, and offers of help denied that could have sped things, maybe not individually, but as a whole. Another example would have been the wake of 9-11, where the government could have asked anything out of us, pretty much, and we'd have done it (I.e. we need to get off of foreign oil, and deny these people the money that they use to attack us, and so we will be reintroducing the electric car, as well as starting to make the shift over to hybrids.). You cannot expect the US to get its house in order if you don't see how the financial policies set us back.

[DragonStryk72]

"Stop spending" is a good idea. Let's withdraw from the Middle East now and cut military spending by 50 percent.

I wish we could at this point, but Bush screwed us there. Yes, that one's all on Bush, Iraq and Afghanistan. If we had stuck to our purpose to get rid of Al Qaeda, and stabilize Afghanistan as a free nation in the wake of 9-11, then we wouldn't have had to go back their today.

Yes, Saddam was an evil bastard, but he was the evil bastard holding up the whole stack of cards. He was not an immediate threat, his people clearly had no capability to offer up a real fight (An army that surrenders to reporters is slightly lacking in fight capacity). We should have kept our efforts focused on Afghanistan instead of sparking up a second war, to make sure that what we built would last, instead of fall in on itself a years later.

[Insein]

"Stop spending" is a good idea. Let's withdraw from the Middle East now and cut military spending by 50 percent.

So we end the wars in the Middle East. Thats $130 billion. That leaves another $2 trillion left in the budget to cut out.

http://www.onlineforextrading.com/blog/federal-budget-broken-down/


•Military Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan – $130 billion


The mandatory spending, which totals an additional $2.184 trillion, allocates $695 billion to social security, $453 billion to Medicare, $290 billion to Medicaid, $11 billion in a potential disaster relief fund, $164 billion to pay off interest on the national debt and the remaining $571 billion to miscellaneous expenses.

[bullypulpit]

I won't bore you, or anyone else with the whole <a href=http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=432342&postcount=17>POST</a>, but I will address your points.

I don't use the same tactics. Red, I'm sorry to say, is an aparatchik...a useful idiot who repeats what he reads and hears without the filter critical thinking.

The dualistic thinking you attribute to me is simply for the sake of brevity. There are no simple, easy answers and any who believe so is either naive or willfully ignorant of how the real world works. If you want to get rid of wasteful spending, look to the process itself. Look at how the money and influence of lobbyists has utterly corrupted the process. Until we have a sane and rational system for public funding of political campaigns, nothing will change and the waste will continue unabated.. We don't need less government...we need sane government.

No apology needed. The Tea Party movement was born of the frustration of conservative Republicans for who the conservatism of George W. Bush was an empty promise. Since then, the movement has been astro-turfed by the likes of Dick Armee, Koch Industries and other monied right wing interests, and serves as little more than a holding pen for every member of the right wing lunatic fringe that can be held there with the red meat of GOP populism.


How do you propose we tell GM, Ford, and Chrysler to manage their money properly when we set no example in our leadership? How do you expect BP to take proper responsibility and responsible action when our government takes none itself? Part of those corporate interests that are plaguing now are a direct result of the trillion dollar bailout, along with Bush's idiotic run that tripled the size of the federal, tripling as well the budget to keep it going. The GOP however is not really being backed by anyone on here anymore, so throwing them up really doesn't serve a purpose.

Ten years of GOP control of the House and Senate and eight years of the Bush administration made a government that could be, as Grover Norquist so quaintly put it, be drowned in a bathtub. Where regulations couldn't be changed, they respective departments were packed with incompetents. Remember FEMA and Michael Brown? They made Reagan's meme of "Government isn't the solution, it's the problem..." a self fulfilling prophecy. And throwing up the GOP does have a point in that the tea-pary/bagger movement is little more than an offshoot of the GOP political machine.


Part of the reason we the people do not do anything more is because of the over-involvement of government. A classic example is the BP oil spill, where states were held up, and offers of help denied that could have sped things, maybe not individually, but as a whole. Another example would have been the wake of 9-11, where the government could have asked anything out of us, pretty much, and we'd have done it (I.e. we need to get off of foreign oil, and deny these people the money that they use to attack us, and so we will be reintroducing the electric car, as well as starting to make the shift over to hybrids.). You cannot expect the US to get its house in order if you don't see how the financial policies set us back.

As I said earlier, we don't need a government that can be drowned in a bathtub. I don't want government small enough to fit itself through my door and into my bedroom. I want a government big enough to enforce environmental and worker safety standards on multi-national corporations operating within our borders. I want a government big enough to deal with international financial melt-downs. I want a government big enough to bring disaster relief in the face of natural disasters, not just at home, but wherever it strikes. I want a government big enough to project US power...diplomatic, economic and military...around the world. I want a sane government.

The Gulf oil spill happened because government regulators, literally, were in bed with Big Oil and lobbyists poured money into the coffers of biddable Senators and Representatives. For the same reason, little or no funding is being made available for the development of alternative and renewable energy resources.

The system is broken, and both sides of the aisle share the blame. But it is the GOP, and its fringe operators are fighting against any meaningful change.

[Sweetchuck]

Wanna know where the waste money is going? Unions, pensions, government labor, pork projects, entitlement programs...

Greece should be a 3 mile high neon sign, and yet it gets ignored.

Why do you think California and Illinois among other states are struggling? These are areas that they can't cut because of political pressures.

It's all pretty simple, and liberals will continue to bury their heads in the sand over the facts.

[Missileman]

The system is broken, and both sides of the aisle share the blame. But it is the GOP, and its fringe operators are fighting against any meaningful change.

With the Dems in charge of the executive AND legislative, how is it exactly that the GOP is the roadblock to meaningful change?

[red states rule]

With the Dems in charge of the executive AND legislative, how is it exactly that the GOP is the roadblock to meaningful change?

Liberals blamed Republicnas for "blocking" Obamacare even as Obama, Reid, and Pelosi were handing out bribes on the floor of Congress to secure Democrat votes

Whenever liberal s fail at anything, they automatically look for someone else to blame

[bullypulpit]

With the Dems in charge of the executive AND legislative, how is it exactly that the GOP is the roadblock to meaningful change?

It's called the supermajority.The Senate cannot function with a requirement for a 60 vote supermajority. The GOP is setting new records for the use of the filibuster. This wouldn't be such a bad thing if they actually had to remain on the Senate floor and debate their position 24 hours a day until a cloture vote was succeeded on a 55 vote majority, as it was for the last half of the 20th century. But no, filibustering Senators can go home and go to bed...conduct other business...visit their johns, errr, lobbyists...etc. In short, the filibuster, instead of being a tool to prevent minorities, Democratic or Republican, from being steam-rolled is now a tool for obstruction, pure and simple. And the Senate GOP is using it solely for this purpose.

[bullypulpit]

Wanna know where the waste money is going? Unions, pensions, government labor, pork projects, entitlement programs...

1. "In 2009, the union membership rate--the percent of wage and salary workers who were members of a union--was 12.3 percent" - <a href=http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm>Bureau of Labor Statistics</a>

Waaaaay down from historic highs and a decline in the middle class as union membership declined.

Pensions wouldn't be an issue with a single payer health care system. Blaming government employees is a baseless canard. Pork projects are going to be an issue until we have public funding of political campaigns. Entitlement programs? Like the extension of unemployment benefits the GOP just killed?


Greece should be a 3 mile high neon sign, and yet it gets ignored.

<blockquote>Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit. - <a href=>Der Spiegel, International edition</a></blockquote>

Just as naked derivatives, a legal Ponzi scheme, masked the true extent of the mortgage industries distress until it was too late, so too did they mask the extent of Greece's economic problems until it was too late.


Why do you think California and Illinois among other states are struggling? These are areas that they can't cut because of political pressures.

Fallout from the financial melt-down and the refusal of the GOP to permit a robust economic stimulus plan.


It's all pretty simple, and liberals will continue to bury their heads in the sand over the facts.

Yeah...it has to be simple for right wing tools to begin to even get their pointy little heads around the issues. Sorry if some of the words were too big for ya.

[bullypulpit]

Liberals blamed Republicnas for "blocking" Obamacare even as Obama, Reid, and Pelosi were handing out bribes on the floor of Congress to secure Democrat votes

Whenever liberal s fail at anything, they automatically look for someone else to blame

No need to look. The GOP leadership in the US Senate IS culpable.

[Insein]

No need to look. The GOP leadership in the US Senate IS culpable.

Its pretty simple Bully. Democrats have had 60 votes in the Senate and Super Majority in the House since Obama came into power. What recourse do Republicans have to stop them?

[bullypulpit]

Its pretty simple Bully. Democrats have had 60 votes in the Senate and Super Majority in the House since Obama came into power. What recourse do Republicans have to stop them?

Joe Lieberman and blue-dog Democrats...I call 'em DINO's...effectively killed that 60 vote majority. Pay attention to realpolitik...not just the numbers.

[Gaffer]

Joe Lieberman and blue-dog Democrats...I call 'em DINO's...effectively killed that 60 vote majority. Pay attention to realpolitik...not just the numbers.

So it's really not the GOP holding things up it's the ...............democrats.

[Insein]

Joe Lieberman and blue-dog Democrats...I call 'em DINO's...effectively killed that 60 vote majority. Pay attention to realpolitik...not just the numbers.

See above.

[gabosaurus]

So it's really not the GOP holding things up it's the ...............democrats.

It usually is. Except for times when it really is the GOP. Which obviously don't count.

[Insein]

It usually is. Except for times when it really is the GOP. Which obviously don't count.

So its the democrats except when its the republicans? Guess that makes sense by default.

[Missileman]

It's called the supermajority.The Senate cannot function with a requirement for a 60 vote supermajority. The GOP is setting new records for the use of the filibuster. This wouldn't be such a bad thing if they actually had to remain on the Senate floor and debate their position 24 hours a day until a cloture vote was succeeded on a 55 vote majority, as it was for the last half of the 20th century. But no, filibustering Senators can go home and go to bed...conduct other business...visit their johns, errr, lobbyists...etc. In short, the filibuster, instead of being a tool to prevent minorities, Democratic or Republican, from being steam-rolled is now a tool for obstruction, pure and simple. And the Senate GOP is using it solely for this purpose.

The dems had a filibuster proof majority for the entire first year of Obama's presidency plus some...try again!

Let me add...if the Dems would invite the GOP to the table there wouldn't be any need for a filibuster.

[Sweetchuck]

1. "In 2009, the union membership rate--the percent of wage and salary workers who were members of a union--was 12.3 percent" - <a href=http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm>Bureau of Labor Statistics</a>

Waaaaay down from historic highs and a decline in the middle class as union membership declined.

Pensions wouldn't be an issue with a single payer health care system. Blaming government employees is a baseless canard. Pork projects are going to be an issue until we have public funding of political campaigns. Entitlement programs? Like the extension of unemployment benefits the GOP just killed?



<blockquote>Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit. - <a href=>Der Spiegel, International edition</a></blockquote>

Just as naked derivatives, a legal Ponzi scheme, masked the true extent of the mortgage industries distress until it was too late, so too did they mask the extent of Greece's economic problems until it was too late.



Fallout from the financial melt-down and the refusal of the GOP to permit a robust economic stimulus plan.



Yeah...it has to be simple for right wing tools to begin to even get their pointy little heads around the issues. Sorry if some of the words were too big for ya.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore the real factors, that's your choice. Blaming the GOP is just the icing on the cake that proves you're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Greece has huge public sector labor costs and those costs forced Greece to continue to borrow to meet obligations to the point that funding these obligations is consuming a huge chunk of their GDP.

This is a similar scenario that California is experiencing now, huge public sector costs with little support to control those costs. Consider who revolted in Greece - trade unions. They like being overpaid just like the unions in California.

Institutions like hospitals who traditionally enjoyed virtually unlimited spending and rich benefit programs are in recent years discovering that they cannot continue to operate with uncontrolled spending and uncontrolled benefits liabilities. Many hospitals went through a process of freezing their pension plans just to keep their doors opened and in many cases it worked. In many cases the hospital was shut down or taken over by for-profit chains who gutted their benefits programs and forced unions out.

The politics of the issue is that institutions (Greece, California, hospitals) operate under the mindset that the institution will NEVER fail regardless of the level of uncontrolled spending or highly generous benefits programs because the institution is that important. Hospitals are learning that there are limits to how financially irresponsible they can be.

States haven't reached that point, but they're knocking on the door.

[Kathianne]

If you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore the real factors, that's your choice. Blaming the GOP is just the icing on the cake that proves you're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Greece has huge public sector labor costs and those costs forced Greece to continue to borrow to meet obligations to the point that funding these obligations is consuming a huge chunk of their GDP.

This is a similar scenario that California is experiencing now, huge public sector costs with little support to control those costs. Consider who revolted in Greece - trade unions. They like being overpaid just like the unions in California.

Institutions like hospitals who traditionally enjoyed virtually unlimited spending and rich benefit programs are in recent years discovering that they cannot continue to operate with uncontrolled spending and uncontrolled benefits liabilities. Many hospitals went through a process of freezing their pension plans just to keep their doors opened and in many cases it worked. In many cases the hospital was shut down or taken over by for-profit chains who gutted their benefits programs and forced unions out.

The politics of the issue is that institutions (Greece, California, hospitals) operate under the mindset that the institution will NEVER fail regardless of the level of uncontrolled spending or highly generous benefits programs because the institution is that important. Hospitals are learning that there are limits to how financially irresponsible they can be.

States haven't reached that point, but they're knocking on the door.

The US may well be heading there:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/7857595/RBS-tells-clients-to-prepare-for-monster-money-printing-by-the-Federal-Reserve.html


RBS tells clients to prepare for 'monster' money-printing by the Federal Reserve
As recovery starts to stall in the US and Europe with echoes of mid-1931, bond experts are once again dusting off a speech by Ben Bernanke given eight years ago as a freshman governor at the Federal Reserve.

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, International Business Editor
Published: 5:11PM BST 27 Jun 2010
120 Comments

Entitled "Deflation: Making Sure It Doesn’t Happen Here", it is a warfare manual for defeating economic slumps by use of extreme monetary stimulus once interest rates have dropped to zero, and implicitly once governments have spent themselves to near bankruptcy.

The speech is best known for its irreverent one-liner: "The US government has a technology, called a printing press, that allows it to produce as many US dollars as it wishes at essentially no cost."

Bernanke began putting the script into action after the credit system seized up in 2008, purchasing $1.75 trillion of Treasuries, mortgage securities, and agency bonds to shore up the US credit system. He stopped far short of the $5 trillion balance sheet quietly pencilled in by the Fed Board as the upper limit for quantitative easing (QE).
Investors basking in Wall Street's V-shaped rally had assumed that this bizarre episode was over. So did the Fed, which has been shutting liquidity spigots one by one. But the latest batch of data is disturbing.

The ECRI leading indicator produced by the Economic Cycle Research Institute plummeted yet again last week to -6.9, pointing to contraction in the US by the end of the year. It is dropping faster that at any time in the post-War era.

The latest data from the CPB Netherlands Bureau shows that world trade slid 1.7pc in May, with the biggest fall in Asia. The Baltic Dry Index measuring freight rates on bulk goods has dropped 40pc in a month. This is a volatile index that can be distorted by the supply of new ships, but those who watch it as an early warning signal for China and commodities are nervous.

Andrew Roberts, credit chief at RBS, is advising clients to read the Bernanke text very closely because the Fed is soon going to have to the pull the lever on "monster" quantitative easing (QE)"...

...The Congressional Budget Office said federal stimulus from the Obama package peaked in the first quarter. The effect will turn sharply negative by next year as tax rises automatically kick in, a net swing of 4pc of GDP. This is happening as the US housing market tips into a double-dip. New homes sales crashed 33pc to a record low of 300,000 in May after subsidies expired...

...Clearly we are nearing the end of the "Phoney War", that phase of the global crisis when it seemed as if governments could conjure away the Great Debt. The trauma has merely been displaced from banks, auto makers, and homeowners onto the taxpayer, lifting public debt in the OECD bloc from 70pc of GDP to 100pc by next year. As the Bank for International Settlements warns, sovereign debt crises are nearing "boiling point" in half the world economy.

Fiscal largesse had its place last year. It arrested the downward spiral at a crucial moment, but that moment has passed. There is a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. The Krugman doctrine of perma-deficits is ruinous - and has in fact ruined Japan. The only plausible escape route for the West is a decade of fiscal austerity offset by helicopter drops of printed money, for as long as it takes...

and related:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/06/american-austerity/58934/


American Austerity
By Megan McArdle
Today's New York Times article on the Irish economy makes for depressing reading. Despite swift moves for wage cuts and other austerity measures (backed by the unions, no less), the deficit is almost 15% of GDP, and the spread between Irish and German debt is about 300 basis points. Unemployment is high, and long-term unemployment makes up a significant portion of the problem.

Given all that, Kevin Drum asks

In the case of Ireland, it's not clear if they had a lot of choice. They're a eurozone country, so they couldn't devalue their currency, and they're running monster deficits even with the cutbacks they've made. Bigger deficits might simply not have been possible for a country their size.

Still, the results are pretty obviously horrific, and any country that can avoid Ireland's fate surely ought to. We certainly can, for example. So why do so many people want us to follow the Irish path instead?

Well, for starters, we don't know that the results have been pretty horrific. What we know is that financial crises are pretty horrific, and that Ireland, for a number of reasons, was especially vulnerable to crisis. (Small economy, no independent monetary policy, highly export dependent . . . the list goes on).

Saying that "the results have been horrific" implies that we know the alternative, in the form of even higher debt, would not have been even worse. That is certainly the dominant macroeconomic theory, but that theory hardly rises to the second law of thermodynamics...

...Austerity is an expensive form of insurance against a true fiscal crisis. And though it doesn't necessarily seem like it when you're not having one, fiscal crises are much, much worse than austerity budgets. Fiscal crisis means that rather than unpleasant cuts, you have sudden, unmanageable collapses in things like public pension plans. The resulting suffering is not unpleasant; it is disastrous.

A year or two ago, I'm sure some corporate executive at BP was asking why the company would consider installing expensive remote control valves on its offshore rigs, when this sort of spill is extremely rare, and the fail-safe might not even work. One could even argue that given the economic cost of higher gasoline prices, and the rarity of these spills, BP made a good bet. We might well . . . if the spill hadn't happened.

But once it has, we're damn sure that we wanted them to be a lot more careful, no matter what the cost.

Just as even before the spill, some environmentalists were sure they wanted the added protection at whatever cost, some fiscal hawks are sure they want the added protection from fiscal breakdown. Given that the odds of fiscal crisis are less than 100%, this is certainly arguable. But unless you know how much less than 100% they are, it's not exactly crazy to try to head it off by spending less than the bond markets are willing to let us.

[Sweetchuck]

Kathianne - yes, the US is walking down that path, which was the reason for my "3 mile high neon sign" analogy.

It's institutional observation. Individually we can see the warning signs. Greece and other EU nations, same issues, same financial crisis. California, Illinois, same issues, same crisis.

Hospitals and other quasi-governmental institutions (not exactly governmental institutions, but Federally funded to a vast degree and NFP), same issues, same crisis.

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see the pattern and identify the causes, but the institutions that govern these organizations are more than willing to ignore them under the false assumption that the institution will continue to operate regardless of it's financial condition.

It took bankruptcy and closing down of many community hospitals until they pulled their heads out of their asses, it might take the bankruptcy of a couple of states before anyone starts to collectively take this crisis seriously.

Remember, we govern reactively, not proactively.

[Kathianne]

Kathianne - yes, the US is walking down that path, which was the reason for my "3 mile high neon sign" analogy.

It's institutional observation. Individually we can see the warning signs. Greece and other EU nations, same issues, same financial crisis. California, Illinois, same issues, same crisis.

Hospitals and other quasi-governmental institutions (not exactly governmental institutions, but Federally funded to a vast degree and NFP), same issues, same crisis.

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see the pattern and identify the causes, but the institutions that govern these organizations are more than willing to ignore them under the false assumption that the institution will continue to operate regardless of it's financial condition.

It took bankruptcy and closing down of many community hospitals until they pulled their heads out of their asses, it might take the bankruptcy of a couple of states before anyone starts to collectively take this crisis seriously.

Remember, we govern reactively, not proactively.

Nearly always I'm proactive. Politically, always. Rocket surgeon, must remember that. ;)

[bullypulpit]

So it's really not the GOP holding things up it's the ...............democrats.

Pay attention to the realpolitik...Not the DINO's.

[bullypulpit]

If you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore the real factors, that's your choice. Blaming the GOP is just the icing on the cake that proves you're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

No, there are many factors in play. The GOP is refusing to address them in any meaningful manner.


Greece has huge public sector labor costs and those costs forced Greece to continue to borrow to meet obligations to the point that funding these obligations is consuming a huge chunk of their GDP.

And Goldman-Sachs played a key role in hiding these costs until the Ponzi scheme tanked.


This is a similar scenario that California is experiencing now, huge public sector costs with little support to control those costs. Consider who revolted in Greece - trade unions. They like being overpaid just like the unions in California.

And California's referendum process allows California voters to vote themselves all sorts of wonderful programs without raising taxes to pay for them. IT'S NOT THE UNIONS. It's a short circuiting of the budgetary process by outside influences...In the case of California, its as much an out of control voter referendum process as it is lobbyists money.


Institutions like hospitals who traditionally enjoyed virtually unlimited spending and rich benefit programs are in recent years discovering that they cannot continue to operate with uncontrolled spending and uncontrolled benefits liabilities. Many hospitals went through a process of freezing their pension plans just to keep their doors opened and in many cases it worked. In many cases the hospital was shut down or taken over by for-profit chains who gutted their benefits programs and forced unions out.

And when the hospital close because they cannot keep their heads above water as reimbursements continue to drop more and more people are denied healthcare. A prime example is St. Vincent's in Manhattan. The biggest component of those pension plans were medical benefits which would be a moot point with a single payer system.


The politics of the issue is that institutions (Greece, California, hospitals) operate under the mindset that the institution will NEVER fail regardless of the level of uncontrolled spending or highly generous benefits programs because the institution is that important. Hospitals are learning that there are limits to how financially irresponsible they can be.

The politics of the issue is that health insurers, drug companies and DME providers, hand in hand with the GOP helped kill meaningful health care reform with a robust public option.


States haven't reached that point, but they're knocking on the door.

They're knocking on the door because tax revenues have dropped like a rock as more and more people were thrown into the ranks of the unemployed because of the collapse of the housing markets.

[red states rule]

So BP, union members doubkle dip, and unions bosses spend hundreds of millions of union money to try and elect Dems - while at the same time DEMAND taxpayer money to fund their pensions

Consumer confidence takes a dive, unemplyment near 10%, Dems spending us into oblivion, passing unpopular and unwanted programs - and all you do is blame the minority party

BP, I know you do not give a damn what pole have to say but look at the numbers

49% Favor Deepwater Oil Drilling

52% Favor Repeal of Health Care Bill

30% Say U.S. Heading in Right Direction

56% Oppose Justice Department Challenge of Arizona Immigration Law

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/

So all of these bad numbers for your side is the fault of Republicnas BP? Or wil you dismiss them as racists, or stupid, or they do not "get" the "benefits" of the "economic genius" of Obama and the Democrats?

[DragonStryk72]

I won't bore you, or anyone else with the whole <a href=http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=432342&postcount=17>POST</a>, but I will address your points.

I don't use the same tactics. Red, I'm sorry to say, is an aparatchik...a useful idiot who repeats what he reads and hears without the filter critical thinking.

I did not say you were using the same tactics, I said you showed the same behavior as Red, and I've had this out with him previously. you use cheap slurs and slams, and throw out clear hyperbole with no substance.

The dualistic thinking you attribute to me is simply for the sake of brevity. There are no simple, easy answers and any who believe so is either naive or willfully ignorant of how the real world works. If you want to get rid of wasteful spending, look to the process itself. Look at how the money and influence of lobbyists has utterly corrupted the process. Until we have a sane and rational system for public funding of political campaigns, nothing will change and the waste will continue unabated.. We don't need less government...we need sane government.

I would say as much of anyone who puts forth only absolutes, it must either stay as it is, or we have to fire everybody. It requires no thinking, nor does it encourage any.

No apology needed. The Tea Party movement was born of the frustration of conservative Republicans for who the conservatism of George W. Bush was an empty promise. Since then, the movement has been astro-turfed by the likes of Dick Armee, Koch Industries and other monied right wing interests, and serves as little more than a holding pen for every member of the right wing lunatic fringe that can be held there with the red meat of GOP populism.

Then stop throwing the term tea-bagger around, because that term is used for all of us. Yes, the Tea Party is having its trials, but it is still maintaining its core integrity. Any new movement is going to have issues, this is clear throughout history. Instead of just throwing out the hate, try doing something that might bring others together.

Ten years of GOP control of the House and Senate and eight years of the Bush administration made a government that could be, as Grover Norquist so quaintly put it, be drowned in a bathtub. Where regulations couldn't be changed, they respective departments were packed with incompetents. Remember FEMA and Michael Brown? They made Reagan's meme of "Government isn't the solution, it's the problem..." a self fulfilling prophecy. And throwing up the GOP does have a point in that the tea-pary/bagger movement is little more than an offshoot of the GOP political machine.

Actually, FEMA wasn't Michael Brown's fault, he did not get any control over its dismantling by Bush. Bush decided that, after it did so well with the florida hurricanes, that he would bring FEMA under the DHS, and in the process of that, it was stripping of pretty much all of its effectiveness before Katrina hit. Brown even flat out told Bush that the levees wouldn't hold, and Bush did as usual, doing nothing and just hoping it worked out like he wanted it to.

As I said earlier, we don't need a government that can be drowned in a bathtub. I don't want government small enough to fit itself through my door and into my bedroom. I want a government big enough to enforce environmental and worker safety standards on multi-national corporations operating within our borders. I want a government big enough to deal with international financial melt-downs. I want a government big enough to bring disaster relief in the face of natural disasters, not just at home, but wherever it strikes. I want a government big enough to project US power...diplomatic, economic and military...around the world. I want a sane government.

The government does not need to be big to protect us. In fact, the larger and more controlling our government has gotten, the less other countries are putting up with us. when our government was smaller, we still had these circumstances, but you don't hear much out of them when the government. Why on earth would you believe that the bigger a government is going to protect you any better? Higher government regs lead to business slowing (And let's not forget Freddie and Fannie), so there goes economic, then of course, a huge government got us into two simultaneous wars (now three, since we're fighting the same people again), and conducting them poorly wasting our military, even going as far as to yank our National Guardsmen out of the Nation they're supposed to be Guarding to fight in these wars.

No government the size we have now can be sane, there are too many voices in its head to contend with.

The Gulf oil spill happened because government regulators, literally, were in bed with Big Oil and lobbyists poured money into the coffers of biddable Senators and Representatives. For the same reason, little or no funding is being made available for the development of alternative and renewable energy resources.

Look, right there I highlighted for you cause this is what I want to address. New regs are only as good as the people enforcing them, and this is a prime example. We would have been better off to simply lay down a set of standards that are expected of any company wishing to do business with us as regards to safety and environmental responsibility, and have a random inspector picked to do no notice inspections of the premises to determine whether they are meeting the criteria or not. If not, we stop doing business with them, period. By putting regular regulators in place, it made them corruptable.

The system is broken, and both sides of the aisle share the blame. But it is the GOP, and its fringe operators are fighting against any meaningful change.

They aren't the only one though. The left is just as bad about it these days, with dems opposing anything the Republicans put forward. Hell, they even made a point of proving it when the health care "reform" (which was really more of a handjob to the insurance companies) was going on, writing in the various campaign promises that Obama himself had made. Both sides think "their" team is the one that's trying to save things, but both are contributing equally.

[Sweetchuck]

No, there are many factors in play. The GOP is refusing to address them in any meaningful manner.



And Goldman-Sachs played a key role in hiding these costs until the Ponzi scheme tanked.



And California's referendum process allows California voters to vote themselves all sorts of wonderful programs without raising taxes to pay for them. IT'S NOT THE UNIONS. It's a short circuiting of the budgetary process by outside influences...In the case of California, its as much an out of control voter referendum process as it is lobbyists money.



And when the hospital close because they cannot keep their heads above water as reimbursements continue to drop more and more people are denied healthcare. A prime example is St. Vincent's in Manhattan. The biggest component of those pension plans were medical benefits which would be a moot point with a single payer system.



The politics of the issue is that health insurers, drug companies and DME providers, hand in hand with the GOP helped kill meaningful health care reform with a robust public option.



They're knocking on the door because tax revenues have dropped like a rock as more and more people were thrown into the ranks of the unemployed because of the collapse of the housing markets.

I'm overwhelmed by your complete lack of understanding and unbridled ignorance and your total willingness to bury your head in the sand and point the finger at conservatives.

Sorry, I won't argue with stupidity.

[red states rule]

Some things are consistent, like the voters disapptocal of Obama and his policies

No wonder BP is in such a foul mood


http://www.rasmussenreports.com/var/plain/storage/images/media/obama_index_graphics/july_2010/obama_approval_index_july_01_2010/327848-1-eng-US/obama_approval_index_july_01_2010.jpg