Gov Brewer's ad: Here Is What Obama Means By Border Security

[red states rule]

Obama's crackdown on border security has started


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[Gaffer]

POW. She gave it to him in that one. Good ad. I hope it plays everywhere.

She definitely no fan of the dark lord.

[Sweetchuck]

There's subliminal code in those signs that tell border runners how to fraudulently register to vote once they're in.

[red states rule]

Gov Brewer is showing why she is a rising star in the GOP. She refuses to bow before Obama and take the abuse she is getting from the left mearly because she is doing her job and looking out for the state of AZ

[Sweetchuck]

Gov Brewer is showing why she is a rising star in the GOP. She refuses to bow before Obama and take the abuse she is getting from the left mearly because she is doing her job and looking out for the state of AZ

I don't know about "rising star", but she's stepped up to the plate.

Unfortunately for her, most conservatives are sitting and watching her from the comfort of the dugout.

[red states rule]

It is sad to see so many in the party cower in fear of standing up for something that a huge majority of the courty supports.

She is a rising star and she is showing what standing firm for CONSERVATIVE values will do for you

[Sweetchuck]

It is sad to see so many in the party cower in fear of standing up for something that a huge majority of the courty supports.

She is a rising star and she is showing what standing firm for CONSERVATIVE values will do for you

Well, I'm still not sure of all that - I think the whole scheme started off as a political attention grab and it sort of blew up from there. But if this is really the position that conservatives wanted to take, there it is. The step is taken, now either support it or abandon it.

IMO, conservatives bit off more than they are willing to chew on this one but Brewer is the one who has to deal with it, so she is.

[red states rule]

It was not a scheme. Legal residents of her state were being MURDERED by ilegals and she was fed up with another issue Obama was ignoring

The fact is this law enforces an existing Federal law

The liberal media and the left are ignoring that aspect. The law is working. Illegals are fleeing AZ because they know their days are numbered

Hell let them go to LA or NYC where the liberals will welcome them with open arms

[Sweetchuck]

It was not a scheme. Legal residents of her state were being MURDERED by ilegals and she was fed up with another issue Obama was ignoring

The fact is this law enforces an existing Federal law

The liberal media and the left are ignoring that aspect. The law is working. Illegals are fleeing AZ because they know their days are numbered

Hell let them go to LA or NYC where the liberals will welcome them with open arms

Well, then why did they pass a superfluous law? Why didn't they just start enforcing the laws that were already in place?

[HogTrash]

:clap: Governor Brewer is a much stronger leader than Obama, whose one and only strength is his loyal media support.

[DragonStryk72]

Well, then why did they pass a superfluous law? Why didn't they just start enforcing the laws that were already in place?

Because the feds that were supposed to be enforcing it were not enforcing it, and so the vacuum had to be filled by the states.

[Little-Acorn]

Well, then why did they pass a superfluous law?
They didn't.


Why didn't they just start enforcing the laws that were already in place?
They just did.

Hope this helps, sweetchuck.

[Sweetchuck]

I'm not arguing against the law, I'm completely in support of policing the illegal immigration problem. I'm simply trying to play devils advocate churn up some discussion on the issue.

Going back to a point I made earlier, I'm disappointed that the GOP and conservatives in general aren't stepping up to the plate in defense of Arizona, but again, there's politics behind the scenes here, more than what is being discussed in the mainstream, IMO.

[DragonStryk72]

I'm not arguing against the law, I'm completely in support of policing the illegal immigration problem. I'm simply trying to play devils advocate churn up some discussion on the issue.

Going back to a point I made earlier, I'm disappointed that the GOP and conservatives in general aren't stepping up to the plate in defense of Arizona, but again, there's politics behind the scenes here, more than what is being discussed in the mainstream, IMO.

I see your point there, but some of what is going on now in AZ is based around simple neglect. This isn't a problem that just popped up when they made the law, they had to have tried to work within the current system, and found it failing. Now, they armed insurgents setting up shop in their state, and again, no one jumping to help out. There's a lot of talk, but nobody's actually doing anything, which at this point means they're aiding the insurgency.

[Sweetchuck]

Well, let me ask again. What will AZ law enforcement be able to do now that they couldn't do previously?

The law makes it a crime to be an illegal alien. Ok... what happens now when an illegal is detained that wasn't able to happen previously? Deportation? Prosecution? Fines?

Under the new law, AZ law enforcement can ask for identification during what I'll describe as a routine stop. They couldn't do that before?

The one thing I'm encouraged about the law and it's a big question mark as to how far it will go, but from what I understand about the law - AZ law enforcement can go after employers which IMO is the only way the illegal problem can be dealt with, but again I'll ask - what can they do to employers under the new law that they couldn't do previously and will they be ABLE to enforce the law or is it just more ineffective legislation?

Those are my big concerns.

[DragonStryk72]

Well, let me ask again. What will AZ law enforcement be able to do now that they couldn't do previously?

The law makes it a crime to be an illegal alien. Ok... what happens now when an illegal is detained that wasn't able to happen previously? Deportation? Prosecution? Fines?

Under the new law, AZ law enforcement can ask for identification during what I'll describe as a routine stop. They couldn't do that before?

The one thing I'm encouraged about the law and it's a big question mark as to how far it will go, but from what I understand about the law - AZ law enforcement can go after employers which IMO is the only way the illegal problem can be dealt with, but again I'll ask - what can they do to employers under the new law that they couldn't do previously and will they be ABLE to enforce the law or is it just more ineffective legislation?

Those are my big concerns.

Actually, they weren't allowed to check their immigration status prior to the law, even with exigent circumstances. It was only with the law that their state police forces could actually do anything independently. The feds didn't really bother with the problem because of backroom politics, and AZ got sick of it.

AZ intends to actually pursue this, and with a portion of their land near their capital having been taken by Mexican crime lords, I'd say going to have an effect.

I do agree that going after businesses is really the only way to effect permanent change, to deprive them of the opportunity. However, the new law scared illegals, and put them on an exodus out of the state before it could go into effect, so again, even on just that level, it has been effective.

[Sweetchuck]

Actually, they weren't allowed to check their immigration status prior to the law, even with exigent circumstances. It was only with the law that their state police forces could actually do anything independently. The feds didn't really bother with the problem because of backroom politics, and AZ got sick of it.

AZ intends to actually pursue this, and with a portion of their land near their capital having been taken by Mexican crime lords, I'd say going to have an effect.

I do agree that going after businesses is really the only way to effect permanent change, to deprive them of the opportunity. However, the new law scared illegals, and put them on an exodus out of the state before it could go into effect, so again, even on just that level, it has been effective.

I've heard conflicting reports on what illegals in AZ are doing, so I'm not sure - but asking for ID during a traffic stop or any other police action is a fundamental part of law enforcement. You're telling me that, if I'm speeding through AZ, I don't need to show a cop my drivers license if he asks me for it? Or, if I'm staggering through the streets of Tuscon after a night of binge drinking and a cop stops me, I can tell him to piss off if he asks me for ID?

[DragonStryk72]

I've heard conflicting reports on what illegals in AZ are doing, so I'm not sure - but asking for ID during a traffic stop or any other police action is a fundamental part of law enforcement. You're telling me that, if I'm speeding through AZ, I don't need to show a cop my drivers license if he asks me for it? Or, if I'm staggering through the streets of Tuscon after a night of binge drinking and a cop stops me, I can tell him to piss off if he asks me for ID?

It is, but the only thing they could do before was if you didn't have your license, they could open a file with ICE, which rarely if ever even looked into it. It wasn't about asking for ID, cops were working out who it was, but they had their hands tied in actually making any arrests. Before the law, they were not allowed to detain suspected illegal, and now, with being an illegal being against state law, they can arrest the offending illegals and pass them directly over to ICE for deportation, for the federal to actually do its job.

[Sweetchuck]

It is, but the only thing they could do before was if you didn't have your license, they could open a file with ICE, which rarely if ever even looked into it. It wasn't about asking for ID, cops were working out who it was, but they had their hands tied in actually making any arrests. Before the law, they were not allowed to detain suspected illegal, and now, with being an illegal being against state law, they can arrest the offending illegals and pass them directly over to ICE for deportation, for the federal to actually do its job.

... and you expect ICE to actually deport them?

I thought I read somewhere that ICE is refusing to cooperate with the new AZ law, but let's go back to the traffic stop. Jose Dirt gets stopped for running a traffic light, cop asks him for ID. He has none since he's a complete illegal. That cop is now stuck? He can't detain this person for a traffic violation when they don't produce a valid drivers license?

Stay with me here, I'm not trying to be a dick - but if they do detain this guy as I would expect them to (if it were me and I had no ID, I'm guessing I'm getting a ride to the police station), and they determine that this guy is illegal - there is nothing in the current AZ law that allows them to act in another direction knowing he's illegal?

There's a gap in the logic here that I'm not getting.

[Silver]

The governor KO's the messiah.....SWEET !

[DragonStryk72]

... and you expect ICE to actually deport them?

I thought I read somewhere that ICE is refusing to cooperate with the new AZ law, but let's go back to the traffic stop. Jose Dirt gets stopped for running a traffic light, cop asks him for ID. He has none since he's a complete illegal. That cop is now stuck? He can't detain this person for a traffic violation when they don't produce a valid drivers license?

Stay with me here, I'm not trying to be a dick - but if they do detain this guy as I would expect them to (if it were me and I had no ID, I'm guessing I'm getting a ride to the police station), and they determine that this guy is illegal - there is nothing in the current AZ law that allows them to act in another direction knowing he's illegal?

There's a gap in the logic here that I'm not getting.

No, no, I understand where you're going with this, and I had problems with it at first too. Like I said previously, they can open a file with ICE, which ICE 'will get around to', but the rules are completely different when they have a verified illegal directly in front of them, skipping the investigations, and being able to send them on to deportation proceedings instead. The federal offices essentially created a vacuum in the way that Federal trumps State law (which is actually against the Constitution, but that's another argument entirely), and so the feds, bogged down with cases that have to be investigated individually, don't get around to actually catching the illegal in question. The other problem is the evidence gap.

Jose Dirt gets stopped, and he cannot produce ID, and so the officer is forced to issue a ticket or running a red light, and failing to carry proper identification. Neither of these is an arrestable offense, mostly just resulting in fines. The cop maybe stay present to make sure someone comes to get said person, and the situation resolves. Now, with this new law, the cop can hold him, on suspicion of being an illegal, and can run his prints through the database, along with whatever ssn Jose might use to determine whether he is here legally or illegally. If he's legal, then he's still getting the ticket, which resolves normally, and is released to deal with said ticketing in court. However, if he is an illegal, then his prints and photos are documented, along with a false ssn marked if he was using one. From there, they can now send him directly to processing, getting around the investigation system. Had they waited for ICE, they may never have gotten a trail of Jose, whose car was likely bought used and wasn't registered, or was but under another name. Finding someone who is living pretty much entirely off the books is just time consuming.

[Sweetchuck]

No, no, I understand where you're going with this, and I had problems with it at first too. Like I said previously, they can open a file with ICE, which ICE 'will get around to', but the rules are completely different when they have a verified illegal directly in front of them, skipping the investigations, and being able to send them on to deportation proceedings instead. The federal offices essentially created a vacuum in the way that Federal trumps State law (which is actually against the Constitution, but that's another argument entirely), and so the feds, bogged down with cases that have to be investigated individually, don't get around to actually catching the illegal in question. The other problem is the evidence gap.

Jose Dirt gets stopped, and he cannot produce ID, and so the officer is forced to issue a ticket or running a red light, and failing to carry proper identification. Neither of these is an arrestable offense, mostly just resulting in fines. The cop maybe stay present to make sure someone comes to get said person, and the situation resolves. Now, with this new law, the cop can hold him, on suspicion of being an illegal, and can run his prints through the database, along with whatever ssn Jose might use to determine whether he is here legally or illegally. If he's legal, then he's still getting the ticket, which resolves normally, and is released to deal with said ticketing in court. However, if he is an illegal, then his prints and photos are documented, along with a false ssn marked if he was using one. From there, they can now send him directly to processing, getting around the investigation system. Had they waited for ICE, they may never have gotten a trail of Jose, whose car was likely bought used and wasn't registered, or was but under another name. Finding someone who is living pretty much entirely off the books is just time consuming.

That makes sense, but I have to ask - if this law goes into effect in another month or so, do you expect ICE to cooperate with it or does BO's lawsuit and subsequent lack of ICE cooperation stalemate it for an undetermined period of time?

And... if the popular support is really there as is being reported, do other states like NM, TX, etc. pass similar laws which will make this issue more broadly supported from a states standpoint? Which is what I think needs to happen if a step in the direction of real illegal immigration enforcement is going to happen.

It all goes back to GOP support but maybe this isn't an issue the minority GOP is willing to take on at this point.

[DragonStryk72]

That makes sense, but I have to ask - if this law goes into effect in another month or so, do you expect ICE to cooperate with it or does BO's lawsuit and subsequent lack of ICE cooperation stalemate it for an undetermined period of time?

And... if the popular support is really there as is being reported, do other states like NM, TX, etc. pass similar laws which will make this issue more broadly supported from a states standpoint? Which is what I think needs to happen if a step in the direction of real illegal immigration enforcement is going to happen.

It all goes back to GOP support but maybe this isn't an issue the minority GOP is willing to take on at this point.

they have no choice, actually. Since the law is a mimic of the federal law, they would impugn their own department refusing to do their very job. Everyone got up in arms about how this was "unconstitutional", but the federal law is exactly the same, which means either BO accepts it, or has to either strike down the federal law constraining illegal immigrants, or strike the right of the state to determine it's laws.

It would be like us dropping off terrorists at the FBI after adopting a terrorism is illegal law in VA. As long as the evidence is there, then there is very little the FBI could do, however pricked their egos might be.

[red states rule]

Obama has no intention of securing the boarder. Je is out to reshape America how le and his fellow liberals envision the way it should be

With liberals in power - and this is nothing but a massive Democrat voter drive.

Don’t be surprised when he signs a pardon the ilegals and grants them citizenship - all to attain that goal in time for the November elections

[PostmodernProphet]

anyone else find it interesting that the "Keep Out" signs are only in English and face north?.....

[red states rule]

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