Why do so many Christians say...

[-Cp]

That when you die, you're immediately in Heaven w/ God?

Where does that come from? Where in the Bible does it say that?

[Mr. P]

Why is it you want Christians to see things "your" way instead of their way?

[-Cp]

Why is it you want Christians to see things "your" way instead of their way?

I don't want them to see it "my way"..

[Mr. P]

I don't want them to see it "my way"..

Sure ya do..hey, they can read the same as you but see it different.

[DragonStryk72]

I don't want them to see it "my way"..

then why bother posting topic after topic to just that effect? It's tiresome and boring, because all you do is bait argument. Are you really missing Noir that much, that you feel you must take up his obsession with Christianity? If you really are that curious just go to a church and talk to people there, or take some classes at the local seminary.

[darin]

Seems some ppl are afraid of questions. He asks these questions in part, I'd have to guess, to see if folk like you will miss the point of the question entirely and comment just to insult him for asking.

[DragonStryk72]

Seems some ppl are afraid of questions. He asks these questions in part, I'd have to guess, to see if folk like you will miss the point of the question entirely and comment just to insult him for asking.

We took the questions seriously at first, but answers never change anything, and he simply stops, and goes over to another poke at Christianity on a different thread. I've never been afraid of questions, but nothing changes from the answers given. Look at any of his prior threads on Christianity, and you'll see it eventually. It is the same tedious process every time, and I for one, am tired of the conversation on the topic, and have noticed pretty much all the rest who started off answering his questions feel the same by this point.

He does not ask after Jewish, Wicca, Asatru, Buddhists, or any other religious group, only Christians, and then, even when we answer his questions, he is literally never satisfied with the answers. Like I said, it is simply boring, an argument bait, and has been done to death already by Noir.

[darin]

So - you won't be happy unless he agreed with you or others? This site is about debate and discussion. Do I have to remind you nobody forces you to read the threads?

[DragonStryk72]

So - you won't be happy unless he agreed with you or others? This site is about debate and discussion. Do I have to remind you nobody forces you to read the threads?

It's like trying to ignore the tide coming in. He posts so many he actually got Member of the month last month for the number of threads he started, mostly on that exact topic. It's like when your kid just stands there next to you going, "Dad, dad, dad, dad, dad, dad, dad..." You try to ignore it, but there's not a chance in hell it'll work.

I'm not even talking about agreeing, just accepting the answers as given, whether he agrees with them or not. It's pretty simple stuff, when you get right down to it. Ask no question you're not certain you want answered fully.

I never once question his lack of faith, or go on about lack of faith, or anything. I respect his beliefs, it's just getting tiresome having to defend mine.

[darin]

You're honestly being silly. If you're fine with that, cool...but talk about tiresome...it's pretty lame when people get so threatened over other's beliefs.

[DragonStryk72]

You're honestly being silly. If you're fine with that, cool...but talk about tiresome...it's pretty lame when people get so threatened over other's beliefs.

I'm not, again, I'm just tired of the questions, as most of us are, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing that out. It isn't about beliefs, if CP really wanted an honest open-minded talk, that would be completely different, but that is not what he is going after. Skipping or tossing out what I'm saying to keep making your own point doesn't change that, dmp. It's the same with noir, but they aren't serious about an open-minded talk, they want to poke the Christians, and it's gotten tired after months of this. It's tired watching topic after topic on the same subject matter pop up time and again.

[chloe]

I'm not, again, I'm just tired of the questions, as most of us are, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing that out. It isn't about beliefs, if CP really wanted an honest open-minded talk, that would be completely different, but that is not what he is going after. Skipping or tossing out what I'm saying to keep making your own point doesn't change that, dmp. It's the same with noir, but they aren't serious about an open-minded talk, they want to poke the Christians, and it's gotten tired after months of this. It's tired watching topic after topic on the same subject matter pop up time and again.


Noir responded to posters and answered questions though. Noir also gave explanations to his background of beliefs and so it was a more intimate debate whether posters agreed with him or not.

[avatar4321]

That when you die, you're immediately in Heaven w/ God?

Where does that come from? Where in the Bible does it say that?

It doesn't. In fact, it talks quite a bit about coming before God at the Final Judgment which is at the time of the Resurrection. So there needs to be a state between death and Resurrection that is often overlooked.

For Instance, Christ told the thief off the cross that He would meet him in Paradise that day (IE the day of their death). Yet, we know from Christ words that after His resurrection He still had not ascended to the Father.

So Paradise would logically be a state between the death and resurrection of the body.

So like I said, the Bible doesn't say that. There is a scripture that states that we are brought before God after we die, but it doesn't say immediately.

[avatar4321]

then why bother posting topic after topic to just that effect? It's tiresome and boring, because all you do is bait argument. Are you really missing Noir that much, that you feel you must take up his obsession with Christianity? If you really are that curious just go to a church and talk to people there, or take some classes at the local seminary.

To think and to learn.

[-Cp]

We took the questions seriously at first, but answers never change anything, and he simply stops, and goes over to another poke at Christianity on a different thread. I've never been afraid of questions, but nothing changes from the answers given. Look at any of his prior threads on Christianity, and you'll see it eventually. It is the same tedious process every time, and I for one, am tired of the conversation on the topic, and have noticed pretty much all the rest who started off answering his questions feel the same by this point.

He does not ask after Jewish, Wicca, Asatru, Buddhists, or any other religious group, only Christians, and then, even when we answer his questions, he is literally never satisfied with the answers. Like I said, it is simply boring, an argument bait, and has been done to death already by Noir.

Dragon - you don't know me or anything about my background so it's all good. But.. fyi...

I was raised in the Ass. of God - my dad was even a pastor for the Ass. of God when I was very young. My point in saying that is like - many Christians - I was raised believing what was being taught from the pulpit without checking things out first hand in scripture and the common sense test.

I don't raise these questions to go after Christians per se but do ask them to get discussions going about traditional views that largely go unchallenged. I think God wants us to question things - "Study to show thyself approved" etc.

You'll find there will be many times where I won't agree with your point of view because I'm at a different place in my walk w/ God right now and you need to be okay w/ that.

Like dmp said, if you don't like the questions I raise, then just ignore the threads I start.

[-Cp]

For Instance, Christ told the thief off the cross that He would meet him in Paradise that day (IE the day of their death). Yet, we know from Christ words that after His resurrection He still had not ascended to the Father.

So Paradise would logically be a state between the death and resurrection of the body.

Christ couldn't have meant it the way common translations have erroneously stated it. Even if these translations are right (which they aren't), Was Christ really going to be in Heaven later that day? No.

The comma between the words "thee" and "to day" was inserted by the translators. The original Greek text, which had neither punctuation nor word division reads: "amen soi lego semeron met emou ese en to paradeiso," literally, "truly to-you I-say today with-me you-will-be in the paradise." The adverb "semeron," "today," stands between the two verbs "lego," "I-say," and "ese," "you-will-be," and might properly apply to either. Its position immediately following the verb "lego," "I-say," may imply a closer grammatical relationship to it than to the verb "ese," "you will be."

Obviously, in placing the comma before the word "to day," the translators were guided by the unscriptural concept that the dead enter into their rewards at death. But, as set forth above, it is manifest that neither Jesus nor the writers of the New Testament believed or taught such a doctrine. To place the comma before the word "today" thus makes Christ contradict what He and the various New Testament writers have plainly stated elsewhere. Accordingly, the Scriptures themselves require that the comma be placed after the word "to day," not before it.

Joseph B. Rotherham in the emphasized New Testament, renders this passage in these words: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With Me shalt thou be in Paradise." Luke 23:43. And George M. Lamsa, in his translation of the New Testament from Aramaic sources, renders it as follows: "Truly I say to you today, You will be with Me in Paradise."

Thus, when Christ said to the thief on the cross: "Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise," He was answering the great question the thief was pondering at the moment: not when he would reach paradise, but whether he would get there at all. Jesus' simple statement assures him that, however undeserving he may be, and however impossible it may appear for Jesus to make good such a promise while dying the death of a condemned criminal Himself, the thief will most assuredly be there. In fact, it was Jesus' presence on the cross that made such a hope possible (http://www.tstl4sda.net/saranaclake/paradise.htm).




So like I said, the Bible doesn't say that. There is a scripture that states that we are brought before God after we die, but it doesn't say immediately.

Where?

[Abbey Marie]

Dragon - you don't know me or anything about my background so it's all good. But.. fyi...

I was raised in the Ass. of God - my dad was even a pastor for the Ass. of God when I was very young. My point in saying that is like - many Christians - I was raised believing what was being taught from the pulpit without checking things out first hand in scripture and the common sense test.

I don't raise these questions to go after Christians per se but do ask them to get discussions going about traditional views that largely go unchallenged. I think God wants us to question things - "Study to show thyself approved" etc.

You'll find there will be many times where I won't agree with your point of view because I'm at a different place in my walk w/ God right now and you need to be okay w/ that.

Like dmp said, if you don't like the questions I raise, then just ignore the threads I start.

And you assume that you are the only one here who ever thought about these issues. The difference may be that we concluded that Christianity, even with it's flawed humans, is still the best thing. If you are still on the road to that discovery, I would like to wish you well.

However you may want to couch it in terms of just being in a "different place in your walk w/ God", the relentless negativity of your questions, coupled with the apparent discarding of some of the most basic tenets of our beliefs, tells many of us that this isn't just innocent questioning.

As I tried to say in the thread I started a couple of weeks ago, and as I think Dragonstryk has also said. A questioner goes to the Bible and researches, or a pastor, etc., for guidance or discussion. And he thinks about it and draws his own conclusions. He does not try to convince others that what they believe is nonsense.

And with that, I too will no longer spend my time here. I will take Darin's advice and stop reading threads in the forum that I used to enjoy so much. Good luck to you.

[-Cp]

And you assume that you are the only one here who ever thought about these issues. The difference may be that we concluded that Christianity, even with it's flawed humans, is still the best thing. If you are still on the road to that discovery, I would like to wish you well.

However you may want to couch it in terms of just being in a "different place in your walk w/ God", the relentless negativity of your questions, coupled with the apparent discarding of some of the most basic tenets of our beliefs, tells many of us that this isn't just innocent questioning.

As I tried to say in the thread I started a couple of weeks ago, and as I think Dragonstryk has also said. A questioner goes to the Bible and researches, or a pastor, etc., for guidance or discussion. And he thinks about it and draws his own conclusions. He does not try to convince others that what they believe is nonsense.

And with that, I too will no longer spend my time here. I will take Darin's advice and stop reading threads in the forum that I used to enjoy so much. Good luck to you.

That's too bad - I guess it's okay to question everything in life but that of traditional Christian beliefs. Who would'a thunk it?

Good luck to you as well, Abbey.

[Abbey Marie]

That's too bad - I guess it's okay to question everything in life but that of traditional Christian beliefs. Who would'a thunk it?

Good luck to you as well, Abbey.

And with that, you show that you missed the point entirely. Sigh. Enjoy your non-audience.

Thanks for the well wishes. I appreciate it. :)

[Mr. P]

That's too bad - I guess it's okay to question everything in life but that of traditional Christian beliefs. Who would'a thunk it?

Good luck to you as well, Abbey.

There's a big difference between an honest question and a setup, CP.
More than a few here see yer MO for what it is.

[-Cp]

There's a big difference between an honest question and a setup, CP.
More than a few here see yer MO for what it is.

Do you really think of it as a setup? You have no clue what my "MO" is - as you don't know me..

[Mr. P]

Do you really think of it as a setup? You have no clue what my "MO" is - as you don't know me..

Yes, I really think it's a setup. You post "questions" all the time and when someone gives an answer you slap em around...happens often. If it's not a setup, perhaps you could work on another angle of presentation cuz this dog won't hunt.

Hey, I can sniff out trolls and I don't know them either, but I know what their posts smell like. :poke:

[-Cp]

Yes, I really think it's a setup. You post "questions" all the time and when someone gives an answer you slap em around...happens often. If it's not a setup, perhaps you could work on another angle of presentation cuz this dog won't hunt.

Hey, I can sniff out trolls and I don't know them either, but I know what their posts smell like. :poke:

Can you give me an example of how I've "slapped them around"?

[darin]

Here's the most important fact WRT 'TODAY' you'll be with me in heaven or whatever...

"who gives a shit?"

Today - tomorrow - whenever

Those are words which ultimately have no meaning to one who is timeless. I doubt the significance of measures of time to a God I believe operates outside such constraints - where things are happening in one giant cosmic 'now'.

[LuvRPgrl]

That when you die, you're immediately in Heaven w/ God??

because thats what they believe






Where does that come from? Where in the Bible does it say that?to the best of my knowledge, it really doesnt say anywhere definatively what happens immediately after death, so its open to opinion and that is what many believe

[LuvRPgrl]

That's too bad - I guess it's okay to question everything in life but that of traditional Christian beliefs. Who would'a thunk it?

Good luck to you as well, Abbey.bo

Totally bogus. You are even being honest.

apparently you have a reputation and your questions arent questions, they are hooks made to look like questions

[chloe]

To think and to learn.


Great advice that should apply to any poster that wants to learn about any religion or even questions if there is a God....:cool:

[revelarts]

hmmm.

Well Cp
the Bible says

"2 Corinthians chapter 5
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. "

the answer to your question of course is in verse 8
" 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Which means that if your dead and your a christian your spirit is with the Lord. Where is the Lord? In "Heaven".

Someone earlier mentioned some technicalities in regard to Paradise, Heaven, levels etc. Well yes there is that but, the over all picture is, when you die your spirit goes to be with the Lord, if your a believer. Wherever he is at the time, paradise, Heaven a place of comfort and peace. Those who are not believers go to a "place of torment", Gehena and Hell.

Hebrews chap 9
" 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."


I hope you can see where we get the idea from. Of course people can and do have different opinions. but i don't think anyone can honestly read the passages and say that Christians are making up the idea of "dieing and going to heaven immediately."

But the Thief on the cross is the primary example. Jesus said,
"TODAY you will be with me in paradise."

Jesus also said to the disciples
John 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

[revelarts]

but ultimately, the destination is "a new heaven and a New Earth" with all believers in resurrected bodies. Jesus was the 1st and the prototype of what is to happen to all believers. Risen from the dead. In an immortal body.

The spirit only form is not the what God originally intended for people. And it's not where He ends it.

[crin63]

And you assume that you are the only one here who ever thought about these issues. The difference may be that we concluded that Christianity, even with it's flawed humans, is still the best thing. If you are still on the road to that discovery, I would like to wish you well.

However you may want to couch it in terms of just being in a "different place in your walk w/ God", the relentless negativity of your questions, coupled with the apparent discarding of some of the most basic tenets of our beliefs, tells many of us that this isn't just innocent questioning.

As I tried to say in the thread I started a couple of weeks ago, and as I think Dragonstryk has also said. A questioner goes to the Bible and researches, or a pastor, etc., for guidance or discussion. And he thinks about it and draws his own conclusions. He does not try to convince others that what they believe is nonsense.

And with that, I too will no longer spend my time here. I will take Darin's advice and stop reading threads in the forum that I used to enjoy so much. Good luck to you.

That's why I decided to bow out of religious discussions on here. There is no intellectual honesty in the discussions any more. "Christians" cannot have a discussion or debate when one keeps throwing The Bible out of the discussion or when they get their "Christianity" from a song. When people want to make The Bible fit their preconceived beliefs instead of opening it up to find out Gods intent there's no hope for honest discussion. The Bible cant be thrown out, twisted or taken out of context just because it doesn't fit someones preconceived or personal idea of God. God reveals who He is in The Bible whether we like it or not.

Its the culmination of what happened at Fuller theological Seminary in 1947 when the Evangelicals decided to compromise on the fundamentals of The Bible thinking it would bring more people to Christ by being more wordly and world friendly, but it has actually had the opposite affect, "Christians" are just all branded as hypocrites now. Evangelicals have become the "RINO's" so to speak of the religious community.

[-Cp]

hmmm.

Well Cp
the Bible says

"2 Corinthians chapter 5
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. "

the answer to your question of course is in verse 8
" 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Which means that if your dead and your a christian your spirit is with the Lord. Where is the Lord? In "Heaven".


So then was Paul contradicting himself when he talks about the 2nd coming when he says "The dead in Christ shall rise first"?



Someone earlier mentioned some technicalities in regard to Paradise, Heaven, levels etc. Well yes there is that but, the over all picture is, when you die your spirit goes to be with the Lord, if your a believer. Wherever he is at the time, paradise, Heaven a place of comfort and peace. Those who are not believers go to a "place of torment", Gehena and Hell.

Where do you get this idea that we have a separate spirit?


Hebrews chap 9
" 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Verse 27 above is the crux of people's belief that once (irrevocably) dead we "immediately" face God (and judgment). However, all this verse really says is that man will die, and after death the next "event" in their "existence" is facing God at judgment. It doesn't say this is "immediate" in our time-constrained view of existence. In Revelations and other verses there is the implication that there is an undetermined amount of "time" between when people here die and "when" the judgment occurs.

To put it in a light that we might be able to understand, how much "time" do you experience between falling asleep and waking up? Time passed, but without looking at a clock can you quantify it? To people watching us sleep, there is a perception of time passing because they are "experiencing" that passage. To the person asleep, little or no time is perceived. So for the sleeper, the "time" between falling asleep and awakening is "immediate", but for the watcher it's several hours. I think there's a reason that Jesus and the apostles likened death to sleeping.



I hope you can see where we get the idea from. Of course people can and do have different opinions. but i don't think anyone can honestly read the passages and say that Christians are making up the idea of "dieing and going to heaven immediately."

I honestly think the biggest reason they clam to believe it is so they can feel better if a loved-one dies.


But the Thief on the cross is the primary example. Jesus said,
"TODAY you will be with me in paradise."

I covered this here:
http://debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=429204&postcount=16


Jesus also said to the disciples
John 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Not sure how any of those verse deal w/ the topic at hand.

[revelarts]

So then was Paul contradicting himself when he talks about the 2nd coming when he says "The dead in Christ shall rise first"?



Where do you get this idea that we have a separate spirit?



Verse 27 above is the crux of people's belief that once (irrevocably) dead we "immediately" face God (and judgment). However, all this verse really says is that man will die, and after death the next "event" in their "existence" is facing God at judgment. It doesn't say this is "immediate" in our time-constrained view of existence. In Revelations and other verses there is the implication that there is an undetermined amount of "time" between when people here die and "when" the judgment occurs.

To put it in a light that we might be able to understand, how much "time" do you experience between falling asleep and waking up? Time passed, but without looking at a clock can you quantify it? To people watching us sleep, there is a perception of time passing because they are "experiencing" that passage. To the person asleep, little or no time is perceived. So for the sleeper, the "time" between falling asleep and awakening is "immediate", but for the watcher it's several hours. I think there's a reason that Jesus and the apostles likened death to sleeping.



I honestly think the biggest reason they clam to believe it is so they can feel better if a loved-one dies.



I covered this here:
http://debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=429204&postcount=16



Not sure how any of those verse deal w/ the topic at hand.


I'll respond to what you've said but before i do I need your to tell me what you believe about the subject. no need for me to shoot in the dark while you ask misleading and vague questions.

What is your position on this question?

[-Cp]

I'll respond to what you've said but before i do I need your to tell me what you believe about the subject. no need for me to shoot in the dark while you ask misleading and vague questions.

What is your position on this question?

I'm not asking misleading or vague questions - I'm pretty sure they're straight forward.

What is my position on which? The OP? or??

[revelarts]

I'm not asking misleading or vague questions - I'm pretty sure they're straight forward.

What is my position on which? The OP? or??

the question is misleading or as others have said baiting.
my direct question to you is

What is your understanding of what the Bible says happens "immediatly" after you die?

[-Cp]

the question is misleading or as others have said baiting.
my direct question to you is

What is your understanding of what the Bible says happens "immediatly" after you die?

Uhh.. we stop breathing? "From dust you were created to dust you shall return"..

[revelarts]

So then was Paul contradicting himself when he talks about the 2nd coming when he says "The dead in Christ shall rise first"?


No,
the dead bodies rise to join with living souls/spirits.

Mathew 17
"1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him."

Moses's body was in buried in a mountain somewhere.

Jesus and others raising the dead. spirit and body are spoken of as separate.
Luke 8:
"52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
56 And her parents were astonished: ..."





Where do you get this idea that we have a separate spirit?

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Luke 23:46
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
His Body went to the tomb his spirit rejoined with the Lord.


Revelation 6
" 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. "

[LuvRPgrl]

That's why I decided to bow out of religious discussions on here. There is no intellectual honesty in the discussions any more. "Christians" cannot have a discussion or debate when one keeps throwing The Bible out of the discussion or when they get their "Christianity" from a song. When people want to make The Bible fit their preconceived beliefs instead of opening it up to find out Gods intent there's no hope for honest discussion. The Bible cant be thrown out, twisted or taken out of context just because it doesn't fit someones preconceived or personal idea of God. God reveals who He is in The Bible whether we like it or not.

Its the culmination of what happened at Fuller theological Seminary in 1947 when the Evangelicals decided to compromise on the fundamentals of The Bible thinking it would bring more people to Christ by being more wordly and world friendly, but it has actually had the opposite affect, "Christians" are just all branded as hypocrites now. Evangelicals have become the "RINO's" so to speak of the religious community.

I think you can take it back even much farther than that, when mere men were deciding what was BIBLICAL and what wasnt. It certainly wasnt decided on by the actions of God speaking to anyone.
Since the NT is a compilation of "mens" writings, and it has been translated into my language, I do not take anything in it literal, but I do accept the basic concepts presented,

And I totally reject those attacking it based on some of what you said above, taking things out of context, presenting only portions of the Bible to support their erroneous views.

[LuvRPgrl]

No,
the dead bodies rise to join with living souls/spirits.

Mathew 17
"1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him."

Moses's body was in buried in a mountain somewhere.

Jesus and others raising the dead. spirit and body are spoken of as separate.
Luke 8:
"52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
56 And her parents were astonished: ..."




Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Luke 23:46
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
His Body went to the tomb his spirit rejoined with the Lord.


Revelation 6
" 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. "

I dont think it says anywhere that what occurs is the same for everyone. I think thats an erroneous assumption, very common one.

Try reading in one of the four Gospels, right after the crucifixtion, "men came up out of their tombs (graves?) and went into the city (towns?) and ..."

very, very interesting passage, people arising from the dead (zombies?) and everyone has read it, but virtually no one remembers or brings it up

[revelarts]

I dont think it says anywhere that what occurs is the same for everyone. I think thats an erroneous assumption, very common one.

Try reading in one of the four Gospels, right after the crucifixtion, "men came up out of their tombs (graves?) and went into the city (towns?) and ..."

very, very interesting passage, people arising from the dead (zombies?) and everyone has read it, but virtually no one remembers or brings it up

Zombies??? that's funny.

Yes others came back from the dead as well. But Why would you make the "erroneous assumption" they are Zombies? When in EVERY other case of resurrection in the Bible it describes people rising and going back to their normal lives.

I'm not sure what your saying. Are you saying that what we read about coming back from the dead MIGHT NOT be for every one. but you don't really point to any clear evidence from the Bible that would indicated otherwise.

1 Corinthians 6:
14 And God hath both raised up the Lord (Jesus), and will also raise up us by his own power.

Acts 17:30
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

Jesus said
Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

..

[-Cp]

No,
the dead bodies rise to join with living souls/spirits.

Mathew 17
"1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him."

Moses's body was in buried in a mountain somewhere.

Keep reading Matt: 17 - what did Christ tell them?

9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

It was a vision - like a dream etc.. Wasn't literal.



Jesus and others raising the dead. spirit and body are spoken of as separate.
Luke 8:
"52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
56 And her parents were astonished: ..."

Luke 23:46
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
His Body went to the tomb his spirit rejoined with the Lord.


In the Greek, the word Spirit means wind or breath. It's equivalent to the Hebrew word when God "breathed into Adam" and he became a living soul.

Think of the body like a light bulb:

It's the spirit that provides the body Energy
The body like the bulb.
The Soul is the light that's created by the spirit.

In the Bible, the word soul is never used to describe spirit and vice-versa.

James 2:26 (Young's Literal Translation)

26for as the body apart from the spirit is dead,




Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Will anyone's soul REALLY be destroyed in Gehenna? He's saying here, don't worry about those who can physically kill you but rather that your soul is in the care of God. Your soul is your personality - it's what makes you who you are - apart from your physical body.

[-Cp]

Great summary on this by Martin Zender:

I t seems ridiculous to have to assert that the dead do not live. Isn’t death the opposite
of life? Yes. But because so many mistakenly define death by some of its figurative
usages, it’s a good thing Revelation 20:5 tells us that, “The rest of the dead do not live until
the thousand years should be finished.”

Dead people do not live. Thank you, John, for the helpful redundancy.

Death is a return. At death, the body returns to the soil from whence it came, and the spirit
returns to God: “By the sweat of your brow shall you eat your bread, until you return to
the ground, for from it were you taken. For soil you are, and to soil you shall return”
(Gen. 3:19). Ecclesiastes 12:7: “And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who
gave it.”

Our Lord confirms the return of the spirit to God as He exclaims from the cross: “Father,
into Thy hands am I committing My spirit” (Jn. 23:46).

What about the soul? The soul is our sensations. Thus, the soul is not technically a part
of us; we are not composed of soul in the same way that we are composed of body and
spirit. The fact that we see and hear and smell and feel—that is, that we are conscious—is a
result of the combination of our two basic elements: body and spirit. Genesis 2:7:
“Yahweh Elohim formed the human out of soil from the ground, and He blew into his
nostrils the breath of life; and the human became a living soul.” Here are our two basic
elements: body and spirit, and the resultant consciousness. Adam was not called a soul
until the breath (spirit) entered his body. A human doesn’t have a soul, then, but becomes
one, figuratively speaking.

The big question is this: when our spirit returns to God, is it conscious? The big answer
is: NO. The key verse, again, is Genesis 2:7. It’s all about the body/spirit combination.
Since, upon death, the body goes to the ground (down) and the spirit goes to
God (up), we may say that the spirit is as far away from the body as up is from down.
Thus, there is no consciousness.

That is the way it is with humanity. One can have a body without a spirit, but we commonly call this a corpse.

http://www.martinzender.com/clanging_gong/archives/Volume1-Issue7.pdf

[-Cp]

More good stuff from the link above:

W hen we awake in resurrection, we will remember everything that happened
to us here. Why have gone through all this if we’re not going to mine treasure from
it in our glorified future? The purpose of evil is to provide contrast for glory. There can be no
sense of glory in the eons to come without a remembrance of how things were down here in
Hellsville.

Where are our experiences recorded? What constitutes our “hard drives,” where the events of
our lives are written? It can’t be the body, because the body is “merely” an ingenious collection
of natural elements housing our experiences; correlate the body to a computer case.
The soul can’t be the hard drive, because the soul “merely” provides our experiences a channel
of perception; correlate it to a computer monitor.

Our lives are recorded in our spirits. This is the hard drive, where everything is written. It is the
thing that returns to God, “off-site,” for safekeeping. I have never before considered, in this light,
the resurrection by our Lord of Jairus’ daughter. Luke 8:55— “Yet He, holding her
hand, shouts, saying, ‘Girl, be roused!’ And back turns her spirit.” Note: Her spirit turns
back; not spirit in general, but her spirit.

Where had it been? With God. This is so comforting to me. The spirit of
each of us is apparently a personal essence. Vital note: The spirit does not live on in
death, but it does exist. Consciousness is not necessary to existence, as is evidenced
in sleep; we exist in sleep, but are not aware of it. In death, however, we cannot say that
we exist. And yet our spirits do. They exist and persist. They do not disappear, like the soul.
They do not decompose, like the body. Our spirits and those of our loved ones are a
treasure kept by God upon death, returned to us in the resurrection in conjunction with a
new body. And you know what happens when the spirit joins with a body.
Wait until you see the resolution of our new “monitors.”

[revelarts]

I don't have but a minute here, but i've heard several versions of the sol spirit body debate. I've yet to take a side on that, frankly , I don't see that it's necessary or a vital question. But your other assertion that the body is dead and the spirit is unconscious is a common um, well heresy. ( are you a Jehovah's witness?). Your interpretation of the "vision" at the mount of transfiguration is slippery. While on the Mount Peter,(foolishly offered) but I think correctly assume that Moses and Elijah could use some shelter when he suggested building 3 tabernacles or huts for Jesus and the prophets.
you've conveniently ignored the passage in revelations with the DEAD saints talking. You've could claim that all of revelation is a "vision" however It does seem odd that God would create a Vision of something that is contrary to -the doctrine your expressing. Causes a bit of confusion Aa? I'd say the vision is expressing the reality of human spirits in waiting very alive, conscious and talking.

You mentioned a passage in Ecclesiastes to try to make your point, but the whole book of Ecclesiastes is from the point of view of a man living "under the sun" that is, with little to none heavenly or supernatural perspective. One could argue that there are no resurrection at all from some of the passages of that book. It's not that's books purpose to teach on the afterlife or heaven so we really shouldn't go there for it.

You do admit to separation of body and spirit but you seem convinced that BOTH spirit and body are dead when separated. You seem pretty convinced of your view.
If you want to have more conversations about these things I'd suggest you come right out with it by saying something like.

"I believe that when the spirit and body are separated that the body is dead and the spirit is unconscious until the judgment resurrection. Why do you so Many Christians believe that the spirit is alive immediately after death? "

It makes it look like a set up when you just a drop a short question out of the blue as if you genuinely looking for information when you really just want to trash the position.

(I'm assuming you believe in a future judgment resurrection.)

If you want to debate it , stand up and show your position and lets debate. If your trying do something else, well it aint cool dude. That's why people are bailing on the conversation.
I assume you believe in God. I think i can safely say that your approach is not very Godly.

I'll reply to the content of your post more later...

[-Cp]

Thought the NAME of the site is DEBATE POLICY??

If folks aren't here to debate, then why are they here? Just sayin'.

[LuvRPgrl]

Zombies??? that's funny.

Yes others came back from the dead as well. But Why would you make the "erroneous assumption" they are Zombies? When in EVERY other case of resurrection in the Bible it describes people rising and going back to their normal lives.

I'm not sure what your saying. Are you saying that what we read about coming back from the dead MIGHT NOT be for every one. but you don't really point to any clear evidence from the Bible that would indicated otherwise.

1 Corinthians 6:
14 And God hath both raised up the Lord (Jesus), and will also raise up us by his own power.

Acts 17:30
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

Jesus said
Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

..

There were some in the OT who never even died.
The burden of proof that the same thing happens to all people is on those who assume that what happens is the same for all persons

BUt I would wonder what happens to people who are cremated, blown to blitherens, or what about babies who are aborted before they ever even really develope a body?

Why did some raise from the grave with their body intact, while others lay in the ground "ashes to ashes"?

I dont think the ssame thing happens to each person, and the burden of proof is not on me,

take care

[revelarts]

There were some in the OT who never even died.
The burden of proof that the same thing happens to all people is on those who assume that what happens is the same for all persons


Elijah never died, Enoch never died.
if they didn't die there's no need for a resurrection.
But the Bible does say that those who are alive at Jesus's return will have their bodies "changed".



BUt I would wonder what happens to people who are cremated, blown to blitherens, or what about babies who are aborted before they ever even really develope a body?

Doesn't really mater what form of death. Lazarus's body was in the grave for 3 days. was just life put back in his body or was his already deteriorating body parts reformed. What about those dead for of years that where rasied? The resurrected bodies are NEW but based on the old, as indicated by peoples recognition. Did you know that every periodical over your life time you have several new bodies, simple based on the food and water you drink. God will have no problems. He made Adam out of the dirt with a new patern he'll resurect us based on the body patterns he gave us during out lives no matter how short, it seems to me.





Why did some raise from the grave with their body intact, while others lay in the ground "ashes to ashes"?


God's will.

[gabosaurus]

Bible scholars can correct me, but in my reading and understanding of The Bible, a Christian does not die. Their physical body might die, but their soul and spirit passes to the beyond. Those who lead wicked lives and failed to repent their sins are cast upon the lake of fire. Those who were saved pass into the Kingdom of Heaven, where their souls spend eternity.

Of course, this is a belief of the Christian religion. If you are not a Christian, you obviously think differently.
My maternal grandfather also told us to not bother visiting his grave site after he died, since it would only be a marker. His soul would be in Heaven.
It's all a belief.

[HogTrash]

That when you die, you're immediately in Heaven w/ God?

Where does that come from? Where in the Bible does it say that?Unless I am mistaken, the Bible states that at the moment of death your soul will be sent to purgatory to await judgement day at which time God will decide if you are worthy of admission into heaven.

Please keep in mind that I am definately not a scholar of the Bible.