Senior at Virginia Tech leaves Memorial Stone For Cho

[darin]

This girl is So misguided it's sickening. :( Cho was a PERSON..but an EVIL person.



BLACKSBURG, Va. (April 26) - A senior at Virginia Tech said moral responsibility led her to add a stone for gunman Seung-Hui Cho to a memorial for his 32 shooting victims that was set up at Virginia Tech late last week.

The stone was later removed, but was restored by Wednesday morning.

Katelynn Johnson, a senior sociology-psychology major, identified herself in a letter to the Collegiate Times as the person who added the stone for Cho.

"My family did not raise me to do what is popular," she wrote in her letter to the campus newspaper. "They raised me to do what is morally right. We did not lose only 32 students and faculty members that day; we lost 33 lives."

In her letter, Johnson said she feared a backlash from students and possibly faculty members who did not agree with having a stone for the killer included in the memorial. But she said feedback since the letter was published has been largely positive.

More at link:

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/student-adds-memorial-stone-for-gunman/20070426115109990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001



I want to SHAKE that woman - smack some sense into her? Poor girl. :(

[Nienna]

Well, Cho WAS a person, and his death was certainly a tragedy, too.

That being said, I don't think he deserves the same commemoration as the VICTIMS he killed.

[lily]

"My family did not raise me to do what is popular," she wrote in her letter to the campus newspaper. "They raised me to do what is morally right.

Sounds like a true Christian. Sometimes it's not easy to what the Bible says. Hate the sin, but not the sinner.

[typomaniac]

This girl is So misguided it's sickening. :( Cho was a PERSON..but an EVIL person.Possibly, but it's far more likely that he was a SICK person. Not necessarily as in "disgusting," but as in "ill." The kind of mental illness he likely had is every bit as physical as a bum heart. People who have this kind of illness don't choose to have it. Not in a million years.

Of course, there's no way to be sure now that he's blown out his brains, but there's a pretty large pile of circumstantial evidence.

[shattered]

That still doesn't mean he deserves anything more than some unmarked clump of dirt, IMO.

[typomaniac]

That still doesn't mean he deserves anything more than some unmarked clump of dirt, IMO.You're entitled to your opinion. Just as I'm entitled to the opinion that you're incorrect.

[shattered]

You're entitled to your opinion. Just as I'm entitled to the opinion that you're incorrect.

What makes him more deserving than any other serial killer that has an unmarked grave?

[Abbey Marie]

Sounds like a true Christian. Sometimes it's not easy to what the Bible says. Hate the sin, but not the sinner.

Christians can forgive him in their hearts, if they so choose. That's what counts anyway. Publicly memorializing him in the same fashion as his innocent victims is potentially very hurtful to the familes of the victims, and smacks of misguided moral equivalency.

Btw, reading your sig line makes me wonder why you feel so ready to judge true Chritianity. shrug.

[typomaniac]

What makes him more deserving than any other serial killer that has an unmarked grave?If he really was seriously ill, he would be more deserving.

[lily]

Christians can forgive him in their hearts, if they so choose. That's what counts anyway. Publicly memorializing him in the same fashion as his innocent victims is potentially very hurtful to the familes of the victims, and smacks of misguided moral equivalency.

Btw, reading your sig line makes me wonder why you feel so ready to judge true Chritianity. shrug.


Well, that may be so, but the person who did it did because she thought it was the right thing, even though she expected backlash and it seemed that others agreed with her.

I raised my kids to do what was right, not what others think is right.

[shattered]

If he really was seriously ill, he would be more deserving.

Serial killers in general are seriously ill. How is he any different? Abbey brought up a good point as well - how do you think that would make the families of the victims feel?

[Abbey Marie]

Well, that may be so, but the person who did it did because she thought it was the right thing, even though she expected backlash and it seemed that others agreed with her.

I raised my kids to do what was right, not what others think is right.

Same here (about raising my kid).

I just don't agree that publicly placing the stone is necessarily the "Christian" thing to do. I don't think the girl is evil. Just misguided. I assume that the people who removed the stone feel they were right, too.

[typomaniac]

Serial killers in general are seriously ill. How is he any different? Abbey brought up a good point as well - how do you think that would make the families of the victims feel?If someone lives and dies suffering from a serious illness, I have sympathy for them, regardless of who they are.

The victims' families realize (or should realize) that he was still a person, who also had others in his life who tried to do right by him. Why make those people suffer just because you're in mourning?

[shattered]

If someone lives and dies suffering from a serious illness, I have sympathy for them, regardless of who they are.

The victims' families realize (or should realize) that he was still a person, who also had others in his life who tried to do right by him. Why make those people suffer just because you're in mourning?

The only thing I can say to you at this point is remember those words if it's ever your child gunned down at school. I think you'll be singing a far different tune...

[gabosaurus]

Sounds like a true Christian. Sometimes it's not easy to what the Bible says. Hate the sin, but not the sinner.
:clap:

A recent story done by the VT student newspaper stated that most students did not harbor hard feelings toward Cho. Many were Christians who said much the same thing that Lily did.
It is the non-Christians and those without Christian values who continue to demonize.

[lily]

Same here (about raising my kid).

I just don't agree that publicly placing the stone is necessarily the "Christian" thing to do. I don't think the girl is evil. Just misguided. I assume that the people who removed the stone feel they were right, too.

Yes, I would imagine both sides thought they were right, but the stone was put back and according to the article no one was offended.

[darin]

Cho was Evil. He chose his actions - mental illness or not. To quote Batman Begins: "it's not who you are deep inside, it's what you DO that defines you"

[gabosaurus]

That is wrong by SO many means. :lame2:
First of all, if you are seriously mentally ill, you do not "choose" anything.
Also, who supports their points by quoting a Batman movie? :laugh2:

[manu1959]

That is wrong by SO many means. :lame2:
First of all, if you are seriously mentally ill, you do not "choose" anything.
Also, who supports their points by quoting a Batman movie? :laugh2:

he chose to buy a gun.....hee chose to write and video his reasons....he chose to chain the doors.....he chose to kill.....

choices have consequences.....he should die....

[gabosaurus]

He's already dead. What is your point?

[manu1959]

He's already dead. What is your point?

then he can not be mentaly ill.....

[gabosaurus]

He can't be mentally ill since he is dead??

[manu1959]

He can't be mentally ill since he is dead??

yep....

[lily]

To quote Batman Begins: "it's not who you are deep inside, it's what you DO that defines you"


......and that would define the girl who put the stone down perfectly!

[typomaniac]

The only thing I can say to you at this point is remember those words if it's ever your child gunned down at school. I think you'll be singing a far different tune...I obviously can't tell you what tune I'll be singing if it ever happens, but there are two things I can promise you if it does:
1) I will have no desire to hurt the family of whoever was responsible if they truly had nothing to do with the crime itself.
2) If, out of blind rage, I do hurt them, I'll hate myself for it later.

[Fountainhead]

THE very same John Couey who sexually-assaulted, raped, and murdered little Jessica Lunsford.

I f-e-e-l s-o-r-r-y for him. He must have had an unhappy childhood. He must have been sexually frustrated by grown women. It can't possibly be his fault that he raped and murdered an innocent little girl.

I guess that my Christian compassion MUST extend to EVERYONE who commits heinous crimes against humanity. I surmize from reading this thread, that a good Christian, or a good iconoclast, or a good Liberal .... MUST LOVE the perpetrator equally as well as the victim.

Moral equivalency - is the worst form of mental illness

[darin]

THE very same John Couey who sexually-assaulted, raped, and murdered little Jessica Lunsford.

I f-e-e-l s-o-r-r-y for him. He must have had an unhappy childhood. He must have been sexually frustrated by grown women. It can't possibly be his fault that he raped and murdered an innocent little girl.

I guess that my Christian compassion MUST extend to EVERYONE who commits heinous crimes against humanity. I surmize from reading this thread, that a good Christian, or a good iconoclast, or a good Liberal .... MUST LOVE the perpetrator equally as well as the victim.

Moral equivalency - is the worst form of mental illness

VERY VERY well-said.

[Mr. P]

Katelynn Johnson, a senior sociology-psychology major....

Doesn't that explain it? I've always said these folks are more wacko than those they attempt to treat.

This guy should only be memorialized with a marker on his grave, placed by his family. Which from what I've read may not happen.

Regardless, I have 1000 cyber bucks that says in 10 years everyone will still remember his name without a stone to remind them. Few will remember the victims names.

[Roomy]

This girl is So misguided it's sickening. :( Cho was a PERSON..but an EVIL person.



I want to SHAKE that woman - smack some sense into her? Poor girl. :(


He was ill.

[Roomy]

Serial killers in general are seriously ill. How is he any different? Abbey brought up a good point as well - how do you think that would make the families of the victims feel?


He is different in as much as he is a mass murderer and not a serial killer:cool:

[darin]

He was ill.

And in complete control of his body.

[Roomy]

:clap:

A recent story done by the VT student newspaper stated that most students did not harbor hard feelings toward Cho. Many were Christians who said much the same thing that Lily did.
It is the non-Christians and those without Christian values who continue to demonize.

I am an athiest, I demonise the deed rather than the mental defective who perpetrated it, there are other more guilty persons associated with this case if you care to look for them.

[Roomy]

Cho was Evil. He chose his actions - mental illness or not. To quote Batman Begins: "it's not who you are deep inside, it's what you DO that defines you"


:laugh2: Batman rules:laugh2:

[Roomy]

And in complete control of his body.


I agree with you, but I also think this is a case of it should have been nipped in the bud before it happened.The warning signs were there, I think a lot of people in a position to have acted will be blaming subordinates and beating themselves up over this.

[Nienna]

You all are beating a dead horse. Liberals don't BELIEVE in evil. All truth and morality are relative. Cho wasn't being evil "for him." It was his choice, and WE don't agree with it, but it wasn't WRONG. He was just "ill" or "different" and we should embrace diversity by accepting his right to make these choices, even though the rest of us disagree with them.

[darin]

I agree with you, but I also think this is a case of it should have been nipped in the bud before it happened.The warning signs were there, I think a lot of people in a position to have acted will be blaming subordinates and beating themselves up over this.

Irrelevant though, my drunken buddy. The SOLE blame - the ONLY blame resided upon Cho.

[darin]

You all are beating a dead horse. Liberals don't BELIEVE in evil. All truth and morality are relative. Cho wasn't being evil "for him." It was his choice, and WE don't agree with it, but it wasn't WRONG. He was just "ill" or "different" and we should embrace diversity by accepting his right to make these choices, even though the rest of us disagree with them.

I suppose you are right, Nienna. The guy was ONLY being what he was BORN to be. He was sorta coming-out-of-the-closet, eh? His preference.

[lily]

THE very same John Couey who sexually-assaulted, raped, and murdered little Jessica Lunsford.

I f-e-e-l s-o-r-r-y for him. He must have had an unhappy childhood. He must have been sexually frustrated by grown women. It can't possibly be his fault that he raped and murdered an innocent little girl.

I guess that my Christian compassion MUST extend to EVERYONE who commits heinous crimes against humanity. I surmize from reading this thread, that a good Christian, or a good iconoclast, or a good Liberal .... MUST LOVE the perpetrator equally as well as the victim.

Moral equivalency - is the worst form of mental illness

It has nothing to do with love and everything to do with forgiveness. Isn't that what Jesus was all about? If I recall correctly he forgace everybody.

[lily]

You all are beating a dead horse. Liberals don't BELIEVE in evil. All truth and morality are relative. Cho wasn't being evil "for him." It was his choice, and WE don't agree with it, but it wasn't WRONG. He was just "ill" or "different" and we should embrace diversity by accepting his right to make these choices, even though the rest of us disagree with them.


Nice generalization there.

[Birdzeye]

THE very same John Couey who sexually-assaulted, raped, and murdered little Jessica Lunsford.

I f-e-e-l s-o-r-r-y for him. He must have had an unhappy childhood. He must have been sexually frustrated by grown women. It can't possibly be his fault that he raped and murdered an innocent little girl.

I guess that my Christian compassion MUST extend to EVERYONE who commits heinous crimes against humanity. I surmize from reading this thread, that a good Christian, or a good iconoclast, or a good Liberal .... MUST LOVE the perpetrator equally as well as the victim.

Moral equivalency - is the worst form of mental illness

Your sincerity is suspect.

[darin]

Nice generalization there.

Nice brush-aside of the fact of what she's saying simply because it was a generalization. :)

[typomaniac]

You all are beating a dead horse. Liberals don't BELIEVE in evil.Sure we do! It's the religious hypocrites like Bush and yourself who end up doing most of it. :poke:

[Mr. P]

Sure we do! It's the religious hypocrites like Bush and yourself who end up doing most of it. :poke:

I assure you, Nienna is not a religious hypocrite.

[typomaniac]

I assure you, Nienna is not a religious hypocrite.If that were the case, he or she would not be so quick to condemn or hate liberals.

[Mr. P]

If that were the case, he or she would not be so quick to condemn or hate liberals.

I'll let her speak to that...My position stands as posted.

[darin]

Sure we do! It's the religious hypocrites like Bush and yourself who end up doing most of it. :poke:

Back the HELL OFF - Stop w/ the baseless claims...Libel.

Nienna is not only a Godly woman, but one of the few GREAT women of our time. Seriously.

[Roomy]

Back the HELL OFF - Stop w/ the baseless claims...Libel.

Nienna is not only a Godly woman, but one of the few GREAT women of our time. Seriously.


I like Nienna, but lets not go overboard.:lame2:

[typomaniac]

Back the HELL OFF - Stop w/ the baseless claims...Libel.

Nienna is not only a Godly woman, but one of the few GREAT women of our time. Seriously.A true Christian would forgive Cho. Seriously.

(BTW, it's not libel if the target isn't personally identifiable.)

[Roomy]

Irrelevant though, my drunken buddy. The SOLE blame - the ONLY blame resided upon Cho.

You never let me down.I could win money betting on words you would post.:laugh2:

[darin]

I like Nienna, but lets not go overboard.:lame2:

You don't know her.

:D

[darin]

A true Christian would forgive Cho. Seriously.

(BTW, it's not libel if the target isn't personally identifiable.)


First - are you a Christian?

Secondly, this has nothing to do with forgiveness, and everything to do with accountability.

[darin]

You never let me down.

Then my work here is FINISHED...Pour me another pint!

[typomaniac]

First - are you a Christian?Can't dispute the message, so you go after the messenger, huh?
Secondly, this has nothing to do with forgiveness, and everything to do with accountability.This one, I admit, I don't get at all. What does someone else's choice to put up a memorial for a dead person have anything to do with the deceased person's accountability? :confused:

[darin]

Can't dispute the message, so you go after the messenger, huh?

Not even close. I want to establish credibility. If you were asking me about Rocket Science, and I was trying to lecture you on what it MEANT to be a Rocket Scientist, you'd do well to ask if I had any First-Hand Experience BEING a rocket scientist.


This one, I admit, I don't get at all. What does someone else's choice to put up a memorial for a dead person have anything to do with the deceased person's accountability? :confused:

You are 'excusing' Cho for being a little crazy. I'm saying, in refusing to approve of a 'memorial' for him, I am voicing dis-approval of his actions.

[Nienna]

If that were the case, he or she would not be so quick to condemn or hate liberals.

I do not HATE liberals. I cannot even actually think of a person whom I DISLIKE. This is the reason I spoke GENERALLY in my comment. I did not wish to put down any ONE person.

However, there is a mindset, a way of thinking, that I DO condemn, because it condemns all those who subscribe to it to confusion, apathy, and the inability to ACT. They become unable to denounce a mass murderer for fear of appearing judgmental. Cho intentionally CHOSE to murder those people. His actions and his objectives were evil. In discussing this person in this scenario, no excuses can be made.

Was Cho suffering? Most definitely. But many people suffer, and do not commit mass murder. Should people have had compassion toward him BEFORE his crime? Absolutely. But, one corollary of the perspective that morality is relative is the notion that we should not interfere in others' lives. The "liberal" perspective that forbids judgment AFTER the crime is what forbade INVOLVEMENT before the crime. THIS is what I am condemning.

[Nienna]

First - are you a Christian?

Secondly, this has nothing to do with forgiveness, and everything to do with accountability.

Exactly. :)

[darin]

Exactly. :)

Me on the left, you on the right.

http://www.shaystephens.com/graphics/proposal_page.jpg

[Nienna]

Me on the left, you on the right.

http://www.shaystephens.com/graphics/proposal_page.jpg

LOL! I would say "YES!" But.... you know... my husband doesn't like to share. :)

[typomaniac]

Not even close. I want to establish credibility. If you were asking me about Rocket Science, and I was trying to lecture you on what it MEANT to be a Rocket Scientist, you'd do well to ask if I had any First-Hand Experience BEING a rocket scientist.All right, then: I took several courses in Christian theology as a result of my years at a Jesuit prep school. In my childhood I frequently attended protestant and Catholic services (as a non-believer). And I'm currently a practicing Unitarian, which many people consider to be a branch of Christianity. Bottom line: I'm at least as credible as most lifelong Christians and probably more credible than many. How about you?
You are 'excusing' Cho for being a little crazy.I'm doing nothing of the kind. The truth is: neither I nor you have the first clue whether he was "a little crazy," very crazy, or not crazy at all. Your loud disapproval of anyone's attempt to memorialize him accomplishes nothing other than to fuel a cycle of who should hate whom.

[typomaniac]

I do not HATE liberals. I cannot even actually think of a person whom I DISLIKE. This is the reason I spoke GENERALLY in my comment. I did not wish to put down any ONE person.

However, there is a mindset, a way of thinking, that I DO condemn, because it condemns all those who subscribe to it to confusion, apathy, and the inability to ACT. They become unable to denounce a mass murderer for fear of appearing judgmental. Cho intentionally CHOSE to murder those people. His actions and his objectives were evil. In discussing this person in this scenario, no excuses can be made.

Was Cho suffering? Most definitely. But many people suffer, and do not commit mass murder. Should people have had compassion toward him BEFORE his crime? Absolutely. But, one corollary of the perspective that morality is relative is the notion that we should not interfere in others' lives. The "liberal" perspective that forbids judgment AFTER the crime is what forbade INVOLVEMENT before the crime. THIS is what I am condemning.Okay, I understand your position much better now; thank you.

Nevertheless, I'm not convinced that anyone is actually "forbidding" judgment. As I implied in my latest reply to dmp, nobody truly knows what Cho's state of mind was. You could easily be correct in your assessment that he was perfectly sane and chose to do evil. You could also be wrong. That's my main point really.

[Nienna]

A true Christian would forgive Cho. Seriously.

This is true. However, forgiveness does not release that person from the consequences of his actions. Forgiveness does not mean that we call the murderer a victim and memorialize him as such. Setting up a stone for him with the other victims is not only subverting the TRUTH that he is the one who CAUSED the crime (NOT another victim, himself), but also a slap in the face to the families of the true victims who still have grief to work through. It trivializes the pain of those grieving for the INNOCENT, when they are not even allowed acknowledge anger toward the one who CAUSED their grief.

[Dilloduck]

This is true. However, forgiveness does not release that person from the consequences of his actions. Forgiveness does not mean that we call the murderer a victim and memorialize him as such. Setting up a stone for him with the other victims is not only subverting the TRUTH that he is the one who CAUSED the crime (NOT another victim, himself), but also a slap in the face to the families of the true victims who still have grief to work through. It trivializes the pain of those grieving for the INNOCENT, when they are not even allowed acknowledge anger toward the one who CAUSED their grief.

Do you consider a schizophrenic to be a victim of an illness ?

[Pale Rider]

Sounds like a true Christian. Sometimes it's not easy to what the Bible says. Hate the sin, but not the sinner.

A Christian? Could you show me where it say's in the Bible that Christians should glorify cold blooded killers?

[Nienna]

Okay, I understand your position much better now; thank you.

Nevertheless, I'm not convinced that anyone is actually "forbidding" judgment. As I implied in my latest reply to dmp, nobody truly knows what Cho's state of mind was. You could easily be correct in your assessment that he was perfectly sane and chose to do evil. You could also be wrong. That's my main point really.

But, see, there it is. In insisting that "No one really knows his frame of mind," you are putting on the pressure to NOT JUDGE. The video he released before he killed these people revealed that he had sinister intentions. He knew at least the general idea of what he was going to do, and systematically carried out that idea.

[Pale Rider]

Me on the left, you on the right.

http://www.shaystephens.com/graphics/proposal_page.jpg

Don't tell me that very hot babe is accepting a marriage proposal from THAT fat tube of lard? Gawd!

[Nienna]

Do you consider a schizophrenic to be a victim of an illness ?

My dear, I do not know enough about schizophrenia to answer your question well.

[CockySOB]

It has nothing to do with love and everything to do with forgiveness. Isn't that what Jesus was all about? If I recall correctly he forgace everybody.

Yes, Jesus taught us that we should forgive. However, forgiving someone who has wronged you has to be an individual process. The memorial was for his victims, and IMO should NOT include a stone for Cho... yet. Placing the stone there this soon after the carnage is improper as many, if not most, have yet to even come to terms with the deaths of his victims, let alone properly grieve for them.

[Nienna]

Don't tell me that very hot babe is accepting a marriage proposal from THAT fat tube of lard? Gawd!

Awww! I think he's cute! Very cuddly-looking. :)

[Pale Rider]

Awww! I think he's cute! Very cuddly-looking. :)

If that fat tub of lard hooked up with a hot, "in shape" woman like that, he should consider himself the luckiest man on earth.

The only way I see that happening is if he's a millioniare. She surely wouldn't have anything to do with him if his opening line at work was, "do you want fries with that?" And that's where it looks like he's spent too much of time eating. :D

[darin]

All right, then: I took several courses in Christian theology as a result of my years at a Jesuit prep school. In my childhood I frequently attended protestant and Catholic services (as a non-believer). And I'm currently a practicing Unitarian, which many people consider to be a branch of Christianity. Bottom line: I'm at least as credible as most lifelong Christians and probably more credible than many. How about you?

So you aren't a Christian, but have an academic understanding of the faith. Gotcha.


I'm doing nothing of the kind. The truth is: neither I nor you have the first clue whether he was "a little crazy," very crazy, or not crazy at all. Your loud disapproval of anyone's attempt to memorialize him accomplishes nothing other than to fuel a cycle of who should hate whom.

That's perhaps the most asinine conclusion I've seen reached here on the forums.

[darin]

If that fat tub of lard hooked up with a hot, "in shape" woman like that, he should consider himself the luckiest man on earth.

The only way I see that happening is if he's a millioniare. She surely wouldn't have anything to do with him if his opening line at work was, "do you want fries with that?" And that's where it looks like he's spent too much of time eating. :D

You have NO idea if he's fat, OR a tub of lard. He's a little husky - but You make it seem like he could be in a Sweatin' to the oldies video.

Truth of the matter is, that woman may see beyond his 15? 20?lbs over-weightness and see a passionate, dedicated MAN.

[darin]

FWIW that woman is a few pounds over-weight herself. :)

[Nienna]

If that fat tub of lard hooked up with a hot, "in shape" woman like that, he should consider himself the luckiest man on earth.

The only way I see that happening is if he's a millioniare. She surely wouldn't have anything to do with him if his opening line at work was, "do you want fries with that?" And that's where it looks like he's spent too much of time eating. :D

Naw... The way he's looking up at her, seems like he KNOWS he's the luckiest man on earth. Maybe THAT'S what does it for her. :)

[Pale Rider]

You have NO idea if he's fat, OR a tub of lard. He's a little husky - but You make it seem like he could be in a Sweatin' to the oldies video.

Truth of the matter is, that woman may see beyond his 15? 20?lbs over-weightness and see a passionate, dedicated MAN.

OH C'mooOOOOoon Darin. They guy probably goes 275, maybe 300 lbs.! He's got a gut hanging off him that looks like a gunny sack full of water melons, to match his fat, hanging chin.

I don't dispute the mans passion or dedication. I can't see that. I CAN see he's FAT!

[Powerman]

Well, Cho WAS a person, and his death was certainly a tragedy, too.



No, he was an animal and his death was the best thing that ever happened. The fucking piece of shit should have just shot himself and got it over with, instead he murdered innocent people. Fuck him. And fuck you for calling his death a tragedy.

[Pale Rider]

FWIW that woman is a few pounds over-weight herself. :)

Mmmmm..... I don't know. I don't think so. I think she's got all the right curves. I don't see any out of place BULDGES on her like that guy.

[Pale Rider]

Naw... The way he's looking up at her, seems like he KNOWS he's the luckiest man on earth. Maybe THAT'S what does it for her. :)

Well tubs of lard like him are getting HOT chicks like that, I'm going to start hitting Burger King more often. :rolleyes:

(The picture was staged anyway.)

[darin]

OH C'mooOOOOoon Darin. They guy probably goes 275, maybe 300 lbs.! He's got a gut hanging off him that looks like a gunny sack full of water melons, to match his fat, hanging chin.

I don't dispute the mans passion or dedication. I can't see that. I CAN see he's FAT!

What're you looking at man? The dude is probably 6' tall and about 210lbs, tops.



Mmmmm..... I don't know. I don't think so. I think she's got all the right curves. I don't see any out of place BULDGES on her like that guy.


She's got a large rump, and you can see the makings of a little belly.

[Nienna]

No, he was an animal and his death was the best thing that ever happened. The fucking piece of shit should have just shot himself and got it over with, instead he murdered innocent people. Fuck him. And fuck you for calling his death a tragedy.

Wow, Powerman... kinda ANGRY there. We need to get you someone to talk to BEFORE...



(Just kidding :))

Honestly, his life WAS a tragedy. He probably had all kinds of good qualities that were wasted in anger and violence. Very sad. :(

[CockySOB]

No, he was an animal and his death was the best thing that ever happened. The fucking piece of shit should have just shot himself and got it over with, instead he murdered innocent people. Fuck him. And fuck you for calling his death a tragedy.

Down boy. Don't be jumping on Nienna with the vulgarities, please. She's a decent person who doesn't deserve that treatment whether you agree with her opinion or not.

[darin]

No, he was an animal and his death was the best thing that ever happened. The fucking piece of shit should have just shot himself and got it over with, instead he murdered innocent people. Fuck him. And fuck you for calling his death a tragedy.

HEY man - don't be a dick to Nienna. A man would apologize. I'll accept you just 'knocking it off'.

[Pale Rider]

Sorry for derailing your thread pard. I did ask for Lily to please show me where it said in the Bible that Christians should glorify cold blooded killers. No answer yet, from anyone.

[CockySOB]

Sorry for derailing your thread pard. I did ask for Lily to please show me where it said in the Bible that Christians should glorify cold blooded killers. No answer yet, from anyone.

Well, technically there's nothing in the Bible about glorifying victims either. Yes, those who are persecuted for His name's sake are blessed. But the Bible doesn't teach us to glorify ANYONE or ANYTHING other than the triune God of Creation.

[Pale Rider]

What're you looking at man? The dude is probably 6' tall and about 210lbs, tops.
I'm 203, and that dude makes me looks like a rail.



She's got a large rump, and you can see the makings of a little belly.

Mmmm... I can't even see her belly, her arms in the way. She's got a nice hiney. I bet she goes around 125 lbs., and that's virtually perfect.

[Powerman]

Wow, Powerman... kinda ANGRY there. We need to get you someone to talk to BEFORE...



(Just kidding :))

Honestly, his life WAS a tragedy. He probably had all kinds of good qualities that were wasted in anger and violence. Very sad. :(

I apologize. I have a terrible temper sometimes. I agree with you in the sense that any good qualities he had were wasted in anger and violence. But from what I can see he didn't have many good qualities. If you read any of his writings, it's plain to see that he's extremely stupid and had no business being at V Tech in the first place. It's a shame his death didn't come sooner. The only tragedy involved in the situation was the 32 people he murdered. His death is a blessing.

[manu1959]

Don't tell me that very hot babe is accepting a marriage proposal from THAT fat tube of lard? Gawd!

nah he is begging her not to leave him....

[darin]

You guys who think that guy is 'way fat - tub-of-lard' are seriously in need of an eye check...OR I'm just SO MUCH FATTER Than that Guy, he looks skinny.

[Pale Rider]

You guys who think that guy is 'way fat - tub-of-lard' are seriously in need of an eye check...OR I'm just SO MUCH FATTER Than that Guy, he looks skinny.

Truthfully, I just started a diet about a week ago. I'm 6' 1", 203 lbs. After the last time I weighed in at the V.A., and that was the heaviest I've ever been in my life, and they said the age, height, weight index classified me "FAT", and they wondered if I wanted any weight control reading, I figured that was enough. I'm usually around 180 lbs.. I know I'm fat. The guy in the picture would qualify as "obese", because he makes me look "skinny."

A man that doesn't tuck his shirt tails in like that lard ass, is just trying to hide his massive, over hanging, GUT!

[Pale Rider]

nah he is begging her not to leave him....

:laugh: :lol: :lmao:

[Trigg]

:clap:

A recent story done by the VT student newspaper stated that most students did not harbor hard feelings toward Cho. Many were Christians who said much the same thing that Lily did.
It is the non-Christians and those without Christian values who continue to demonize.


Saying they don't harbor hard feeling and wanting to see his name at the memorial are two different things.

IMO all serial killers are mentally ill otherwise they wouldn't feel obligated to do what they do.

I can feel bad for them because their parents screwed them up that doesn't mean I would want to see his name beside his victims.

[Abbey Marie]

Sure we do! It's the religious hypocrites like Bush and yourself who end up doing most of it. :poke:

Christianphobia strikes again! More condemnation for Nienna than for Cho. Wow.

When will I learn to not be surprised by anything libs say?

[Pale Rider]

PC = Public Cancer.... I mean hey.... GOD FORBID anyone say anything BAD about a COLD BLOODED MASS MURDERER!

I ask anyone, if in this day and age of PC run amok, you can't say anything bad about someone who killed 32 people in a cold blooded shooting spree, THEN WHO CAN YOU SAY SOMETHING BAD ABOUT? NO ONE? EVER AGAIN?

Should we place a plaque on John Wilkes Boothe's grave? Should we place a plaque on Lee Harvey Oswald's grave? Should we place a plaque on Sadam's grave? How about Hitler? The Boston Strangler? Maybe Jack The Ripper.

People need to get a damn grip. See evil for what it is, and don't be afraid to label it as such.

[typomaniac]

This is true. However, forgiveness does not release that person from the consequences of his actions. Forgiveness does not mean that we call the murderer a victim and memorialize him as such. Setting up a stone for him with the other victims is not only subverting the TRUTH that he is the one who CAUSED the crime (NOT another victim, himself), but also a slap in the face to the families of the true victims who still have grief to work through. It trivializes the pain of those grieving for the INNOCENT, when they are not even allowed acknowledge anger toward the one who CAUSED their grief.Forgiving people and acknowledging your anger toward them are not mutually exclusive. Not in the context of Christianity or in any other.

[typomaniac]

But, see, there it is. In insisting that "No one really knows his frame of mind," you are putting on the pressure to NOT JUDGE. The video he released before he killed these people revealed that he had sinister intentions. He knew at least the general idea of what he was going to do, and systematically carried out that idea.No pressure: you're free to judge whatever you want, as am I. At least, when you choose to pass judgment, I want you to be aware that you're doing it based on incomplete information.

[CockySOB]

No pressure: you're free to judge whatever you want, as am I. At least, when you choose to pass judgment, I want you to be aware that you're doing it based on incomplete information.

Errrmmmmm.....

The video he made in advance, as well as the other documents/writings which we know of paint a fairly solid picture of someone who had made a conscious choice to commit an act which can only be described as premeditated murder - evil incarnate. There may be other factors throughout his life which influenced his choices up to that point, but Cho made the choice to commit mass murder.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post as regards "judgement," and if I do, please clarify. TIA

[typomaniac]

Errrmmmmm.....

The video he made in advance, as well as the other documents/writings which we know of paint a fairly solid picture of someone who had made a conscious choice to commit an act which can only be described as premeditated murder - evil incarnate. There may be other factors throughout his life which influenced his choices up to that point, but Cho made the choice to commit mass murder.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post as regards "judgement," and if I do, please clarify. TIAMy point had to do with just how mentally ill Cho was, or if he was at all. Some people with (some kinds of) severe mental illnesses can manage to hide them very well.

If you've ever had experience with a family member who had to deal with a genuine clinical problem, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, I'm not sure what else to tell you.

[Mr. P]

My point had to do with just how mentally ill Cho was, or if he was at all. Some people with (some kinds of) severe mental illnesses can manage to hide them very well.

If you've ever had experience with a family member who had to deal with a genuine clinical problem, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, I'm not sure what else to tell you.
He may or may not have been mentally ill. Regardless, he should not be memorialized along with his victims.

[CockySOB]

My point had to do with just how mentally ill Cho was, or if he was at all. Some people with (some kinds of) severe mental illnesses can manage to hide them very well.

If you've ever had experience with a family member who had to deal with a genuine clinical problem, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Actually, I know first-hand as I have 20+ years of being manic depressive (I hate the term "bipolar"). But it still comes down to personal choice as to how you deal with it. Thankfully some of the changes I made have helped me stabilize, but it's a condition I have to monitor constantly to make sure I don't go off-kilter. And trust me, the natural high you get riding a low-level mania is as addictive as any man-made drug, and the consequences of indulging are just as horrible.

[Nienna]

Forgiving people and acknowledging your anger toward them are not mutually exclusive. Not in the context of Christianity or in any other.

Like I said before, it's that subtle pressure to not BLAME Cho that can hinder some people's progression through grief.

[Abbey Marie]

...
Should place a plaque on John Wilkes Boothe's grave? Should we place a plaque on Lee Harvey Oswald's grave? Should we place a plaque on Sadam's grave? How about Hitler? The Boston Strangler? Maybe Jack The Ripper.
...


I'd like to see those who think the Cho memorial is fine, answer to these questions.

[Nienna]

No pressure: you're free to judge whatever you want, as am I. At least, when you choose to pass judgment, I want you to be aware that you're doing it based on incomplete information.

How do you know my information is incomplete?

[Abbey Marie]

The Amish forgave their children's killer, in their hearts and their words, but I haven't heard that they've erected a memorial to him next to their children's graves. I suspect they got it right.

[Pale Rider]

I'd like to see those who think the Cho memorial is fine, answer to these questions.

They can't Abbey.

[diuretic]

Cho was Evil. He chose his actions - mental illness or not. To quote Batman Begins: "it's not who you are deep inside, it's what you DO that defines you"

Rubbish. It's entirely appropriate that you quote a film for your inspiration.

I would think you haven't got the first clue about mental illness and what it can do to people. I would think you still believe in demonic possession as well. Well do you?

[diuretic]

That still doesn't mean he deserves anything more than some unmarked clump of dirt, IMO.

His family, who may nor may not be culpable in his mental condition, deserve somewhere they can respect their family member don't you think:?

[diuretic]

The only thing I can say to you at this point is remember those words if it's ever your child gunned down at school. I think you'll be singing a far different tune...

Classic ad hominem.

[diuretic]

he chose to buy a gun.....hee chose to write and video his reasons....he chose to chain the doors.....he chose to kill.....

choices have consequences.....he should die....

So you don't like the idea that a mentally ill person should be able to plead insanity? You'd put them to death?

[diuretic]

THE very same John Couey who sexually-assaulted, raped, and murdered little Jessica Lunsford.

I f-e-e-l s-o-r-r-y for him. He must have had an unhappy childhood. He must have been sexually frustrated by grown women. It can't possibly be his fault that he raped and murdered an innocent little girl.

I guess that my Christian compassion MUST extend to EVERYONE who commits heinous crimes against humanity. I surmize from reading this thread, that a good Christian, or a good iconoclast, or a good Liberal .... MUST LOVE the perpetrator equally as well as the victim.

Moral equivalency - is the worst form of mental illness

Your sympathy is misplaced. He is the worse kind of murderer.

Your sarcastic comments, using the terrible death of a little girl, shows how low some people will stoop to make a point on an internet discussion forum.

Haven't you got any sense of decency?

[diuretic]

He is different in as much as he is a mass murderer and not a serial killer:cool:

Good point roomy - very, very different psychology going on between the mass murderer and the serial killer for sure.

[diuretic]

And in complete control of his body.

Well yes, of course he was, so what?

[diuretic]

You all are beating a dead horse. Liberals don't BELIEVE in evil. All truth and morality are relative. Cho wasn't being evil "for him." It was his choice, and WE don't agree with it, but it wasn't WRONG. He was just "ill" or "different" and we should embrace diversity by accepting his right to make these choices, even though the rest of us disagree with them.

Truth is indeed relative. Morality too. Cho wasn't making a choice, he was acting out of compulsion. And judging by some of the rubbish I'm reading in this thread he wasn't the only one acting out of compulsion. I'd say there's a fair bit of evidence of o-c behaviours right here in this thread.

[diuretic]

Irrelevant though, my drunken buddy. The SOLE blame - the ONLY blame resided upon Cho.

You might want to get in touch with the Governor of Virginia on that, he's setting up an inquiry and I think he would be pleased to hear from you because you obviously have a lot of knowledge to impart to him.

You can get some more information on that here - http://www.governor.virginia.gov/MediaRelations/NewsReleases/viewRelease.cfm?id=387

Best of luck with it, I'm sure they'll be pleased to hear from you.

[diuretic]

I suppose you are right, Nienna. The guy was ONLY being what he was BORN to be. He was sorta coming-out-of-the-closet, eh? His preference.

Again with your knowledge of the behavioural sciences you really should check in - http://www.governor.virginia.gov/MediaRelations/NewsReleases/viewRelease.cfm?id=387

They're waiting.

[diuretic]

Nice brush-aside of the fact of what she's saying simply because it was a generalization. :)

Nice irrelevancy there - do you specialise?

[diuretic]

I do not HATE liberals. I cannot even actually think of a person whom I DISLIKE. This is the reason I spoke GENERALLY in my comment. I did not wish to put down any ONE person.

However, there is a mindset, a way of thinking, that I DO condemn, because it condemns all those who subscribe to it to confusion, apathy, and the inability to ACT. They become unable to denounce a mass murderer for fear of appearing judgmental. Cho intentionally CHOSE to murder those people. His actions and his objectives were evil. In discussing this person in this scenario, no excuses can be made.

Was Cho suffering? Most definitely. But many people suffer, and do not commit mass murder. Should people have had compassion toward him BEFORE his crime? Absolutely. But, one corollary of the perspective that morality is relative is the notion that we should not interfere in others' lives. The "liberal" perspective that forbids judgment AFTER the crime is what forbade INVOLVEMENT before the crime. THIS is what I am condemning.

Something tells me you mean well. Your thinking is mixed up but you mean well and that's important.

[diuretic]

But, see, there it is. In insisting that "No one really knows his frame of mind," you are putting on the pressure to NOT JUDGE. The video he released before he killed these people revealed that he had sinister intentions. He knew at least the general idea of what he was going to do, and systematically carried out that idea.

If he was suffering from mental illness, say a psychosis, then was he acting out of free will?

[Nuc]

Well, Cho WAS a person, and his death was certainly a tragedy, too.

That being said, I don't think he deserves the same commemoration as the VICTIMS he killed.

Why not? Maybe we should also erect a statue of Adolf Hitler at the Holocaust Museum. After all he was a victim of WWII!

:cheers2:

[diuretic]

No, he was an animal and his death was the best thing that ever happened. The fucking piece of shit should have just shot himself and got it over with, instead he murdered innocent people. Fuck him. And fuck you for calling his death a tragedy.

Another wasted post. Don't forget to wipe the spit off your monitor before you go to bed, there's a good boy.

[diuretic]

I apologize. I have a terrible temper sometimes. I agree with you in the sense that any good qualities he had were wasted in anger and violence. But from what I can see he didn't have many good qualities. If you read any of his writings, it's plain to see that he's extremely stupid and had no business being at V Tech in the first place. It's a shame his death didn't come sooner. The only tragedy involved in the situation was the 32 people he murdered. His death is a blessing.

Get some anger management and stop making excuses for your own impulsive behaviour.

[diuretic]

Actually, I know first-hand as I have 20+ years of being manic depressive (I hate the term "bipolar"). But it still comes down to personal choice as to how you deal with it. Thankfully some of the changes I made have helped me stabilize, but it's a condition I have to monitor constantly to make sure I don't go off-kilter. And trust me, the natural high you get riding a low-level mania is as addictive as any man-made drug, and the consequences of indulging are just as horrible.

What causes manic-depression/bi-polar?

[diuretic]

I'd like to see those who think the Cho memorial is fine, answer to these questions.

I don't care one way or the other about Cho's memorial. I do think that someone who wants to create one shouldn't be stopped. If that happens then what's next? Will there be a need to report to government to ask permission to create a memorial in your own home?

[CockySOB]

What causes manic-depression/bi-polar?

There is no single cause for manic depression - it varies with each person's biochemistry. The National Institute for Mental Health (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bipolar.cfm) has some solid information for you, but they do leave out another component for treatment, and that's proper diet and exercise (perhaps they feel this goes without saying, dunno).

[Gaffer]

I don't care one way or the other about Cho's memorial. I do think that someone who wants to create one shouldn't be stopped. If that happens then what's next? Will there be a need to report to government to ask permission to create a memorial in your own home?

Creating a memorial in your home is one thing. Placing it in a public venue is another. Honoring a mass murder is showing disrespect to his victims.

If they want a memorial they should put in a urinal with his name on it.

[diuretic]

There is no single cause for manic depression - it varies with each person's biochemistry. The National Institute for Mental Health (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bipolar.cfm) has some solid information for you, but they do leave out another component for treatment, and that's proper diet and exercise (perhaps they feel this goes without saying, dunno).

Thanks for the link. What a bastard of an affliction and I thought depression was bad.

[CockySOB]

Thanks for the link. What a bastard of an affliction and I thought depression was bad.

Yeah, its even worse cycling both mania and depression at the same time - sometimes it was difficult to remain in the real world, the psychosis almost became my reality. So while I can understand how such an affliction might have an impact on the individual, I also know that it's up to the individual to keep their biochemistry as close to equilibrium as possible. I tend to think of treating it just like my Dad treats his high blood pressure - take the meds and get on with the day.

[Pale Rider]

I don't care one way or the other about Cho's memorial. I do think that someone who wants to create one shouldn't be stopped. If that happens then what's next? Will there be a need to report to government to ask permission to create a memorial in your own home?

Well which is it? Either you don't care or you do. If you think someone shouldn't be stopped then you've obviously formed an opinion, from some sort of reasoning. What is it?

[diuretic]

From Pale Rider:


Well which is it? Either you don't care or you do. If you think someone shouldn't be stopped then you've obviously formed an opinion, from some sort of reasoning. What is it?

Either I care or I don't. False dilemma there PR. I know my own mind. You really have to work on understanding the subtleties in a situation, it's rarely black and white. I'm indifferent on the issue at hand. Whether there's a memorial or not, I don't really care about.

Why do I believe someone shouldn't be stopped? Simple. I believe in maximum liberty for the individual. The state should only have the right to restrain someone from action where there's likely to be harm done, short of that the state should leave the individual alone.

[Birdzeye]

If they want a memorial they should put in a urinal with his name on it.

Some people feel that that would be a fitting memorial for Reagan. :coffee:

Or Clinton. Or George W Bush.

[Abbey Marie]

I don't care one way or the other about Cho's memorial. I do think that someone who wants to create one shouldn't be stopped. If that happens then what's next? Will there be a need to report to government to ask permission to create a memorial in your own home?

Then we can "allow" a fond memorial to Hitler in front of the Holocaust Museum.


Edited to add: Sorry, Nuc. Just saw your post.

[Hobbit]

Then we can "allow" a fond memorial to Hitler in front of the Holocaust Museum.

Apples and oranges. Hitler lived in Germany, thousands of miles from the current site of the Holocaust Museum. A closer analogy would be putting up a memorial to Hitler in front of Dachau, which would be inappropriate and wrong, but if it's done on private land with the landowner's permission, it shouldn't be illegal, just tasteless and wrong.

[diuretic]

Then we can "allow" a fond memorial to Hitler in front of the Holocaust Museum.


Edited to add: Sorry, Nuc. Just saw your post.

I can't stop you if you want to erect a memorial to Hitler, go right ahead.

[Mr. P]

There's a grave site for this guys memorial. If the family sees fit to erect one.

[shattered]

Classic ad hominem.

Not even close. I didn't resort to attacking you. I merely said if that if you ever found yourself in that situation, you'd be singing a different tune.

[diuretic]

Not even close. I didn't resort to attacking you. I merely said if that if you ever found yourself in that situation, you'd be singing a different tune.

But that's the ad hominem. Stand by - pedantry warning. Telling someone that if they found themselves, etc. is irrelevant to their argument. You're moving the argument to them, suggesting that they would do such and such when it's not relevant. That's all. If I wrote something like, "Poster such-and-such is an arsehole" that's just a good old personal attack, not an ad hom.

[shattered]

But that's the ad hominem. Stand by - pedantry warning. Telling someone that if they found themselves, etc. is irrelevant to their argument. You're moving the argument to them, suggesting that they would do such and such when it's not relevant. That's all. If I wrote something like, "Poster such-and-such is an arsehole" that's just a good old personal attack, not an ad hom.

*shrug* Call it what you will.. But, put yourself in the place of any one of those parents who lost a child. IMO, by honoring the killer, one is dishonoring the victims and their families.

[Yurt]

But that's the ad hominem. Stand by - pedantry warning. Telling someone that if they found themselves, etc. is irrelevant to their argument. You're moving the argument to them, suggesting that they would do such and such when it's not relevant. That's all. If I wrote something like, "Poster such-and-such is an arsehole" that's just a good old personal attack, not an ad hom.

Argumentum ad Hominem

Translation: "Argument against the man", Latin

Alias: The Fallacy of Personal Attack

Type: Genetic Fallacy

Exposition:
A debater commits the Ad Hominem Fallacy when he introduces irrelevant personal premisses about his opponent. Such red herrings may successfully distract the opponent or the audience from the topic of the debate.

Exposure:
Ad Hominem is the most familiar of informal fallacies, and—with the possible exception of Undistributed Middle—the most familiar logical fallacy of them all. It is also one of the most used and abused of fallacies, and both justified and unjustified accusations of Ad Hominem abound in any debate.

The phrase "ad hominem argument" is sometimes used to refer to a very different type of argument, namely, one that uses premisses accepted by the opposition to argue for a position. In other words, if you are trying to convince someone of something, using premisses that the person accepts—whether or not you believe them yourself. This is not necessarily a fallacious argument, and is often rhetorically effective.

Subfallacies:
Abusive: An Abusive Ad Hominem occurs when an attack on the character or other irrelevant personal qualities of the opposition—such as appearance—is offered as evidence against her position. Such attacks are often effective distractions ("red herrings"), because the opponent feels it necessary to defend herself, thus being distracted from the topic of the debate.
Circumstantial: A Circumstantial Ad Hominem is one in which some irrelevant personal circumstance surrounding the opponent is offered as evidence against the opponent's position. This fallacy is often introduced by phrases such as: "Of course, that's what you'd expect him to say." The fallacy claims that the only reason why he argues as he does is because of personal circumstances, such as standing to gain from the argument's acceptance.
This form of the fallacy needs to be distinguished from criticisms directed at testimony, which are not fallacious, since pointing out that someone stands to gain from testifying a certain way would tend to cast doubt upon that testimony. For instance, when a celebrity endorses a product, it is usually in return for money, which lowers the evidentiary value of such an endorsement—often to nothing! In contrast, the fact that an arguer may gain in some way from an argument's acceptance does not affect the evidentiary value of the argument, for arguments can and do stand or fall on their own merits.
Poisoning the Well
Tu Quoque
Source:
S. Morris Engel, With Good Reason: An Introduction to Informal Fallacies (Fifth Edition) (St. Martin's, 1994), pp. 198-206.

Resources:
Alan Brinton, "The Ad Hominem" in Fallacies: Classical and Contemporary Readings, edited by Hans V. Hanson and Robert C. Pinto (Penn State Press, 1995), pp. 213-222.
Frans H. Van Eemeren & Rob Grootendoorst, "Argumentum Ad Hominem: A Pragma-Dialectical Case in Point" in Fallacies: Classical and Contemporary Readings, edited by Hans V. Hanson & Robert C. Pinto (Penn State Press, 1995), pp. 223-228.
Douglas N. Walton, Arguer's Position: A Pragmatic Study of Ad Hominem Attack, Criticism, Refutation, and Fallacy (Greenwood, 1985).

[diuretic]

I stand corrected.

Shattered, you were right, I was wrong.

[shattered]

I stand corrected.

Shattered, you were right, I was wrong.

:cheers2: Maybe you could teach other people those words.. :salute:

[diuretic]

:cheers2: Maybe you could teach other people those words.. :salute:

Ah but would they use them sincerely? I can see where I was wrong, I had a far too sharply defined definition of the term. Evidence was produced which showed me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong. I had the choice I could obfuscate or simply accept I was wrong. Obfuscation and denial is demeaning and pathetic, best to own up.

Thanks for not being a triumphalist. Now that's something you could teach some other people :wink2:

[shattered]

Ah but would they use them sincerely? I can see where I was wrong, I had a far too sharply defined definition of the term. Evidence was produced which showed me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong. I had the choice I could obfuscate or simply accept I was wrong. Obfuscation and denial is demeaning and pathetic, best to own up.

Thanks for not being a triumphalist. Now that's something you could teach some other people :wink2:

Not bloody likely.

[lily]

Nice brush-aside of the fact of what she's saying simply because it was a generalization. :)

What I was referring to were these 2 sentences:


Originally Posted by Nienna
Liberals don't BELIEVE in evil. All truth and morality are relative.

If that isn't a generalization, I don't know what is. In the days that have passed she has made herself clearer.

On a total sidenote and just a hint........if you would stick up for ALL members of this forum the way you stick up for memebers of the right, I don't think you'd be looked down on the way you are. I realize that you don't "know" us, but at the very least we deserve the respect that is so lacking.

[diuretic]

Not bloody likely.

:laugh2:

[lily]

Yes, Jesus taught us that we should forgive. However, forgiving someone who has wronged you has to be an individual process. The memorial was for his victims, and IMO should NOT include a stone for Cho... yet. Placing the stone there this soon after the carnage is improper as many, if not most, have yet to even come to terms with the deaths of his victims, let alone properly grieve for them.


Yes, I agree that forgiving someone should be an individual process, but according to the article, none of the students or family members objected.

Aslo the article stated that the stone was not placed in the same circle as the 32 that were mourned.

[lily]

Sorry for derailing your thread pard. I did ask for Lily to please show me where it said in the Bible that Christians should glorify cold blooded killers. No answer yet, from anyone.


Sorry, I was out of town for the weekend. To answer your question, please point out to me, where I said that the Bible said glorified killers? I clearly stated Originally Posted by lily hate the sin, not the sinner. Jesus' main purpose on this earth was to teach forgiveness.

[Dilloduck]

Sorry, I was out of town for the weekend. To answer your question, please point out to me, where I said that the Bible said glorified killers? I clearly stated Originally Posted by lily hate the sin, not the sinner. Jesus' main purpose on this earth was to teach forgiveness.

How did you come to that conclusion ?

[lily]

How did you come to that conclusion ?

The Bible.