Can you prove you are an American? [Archive] - Debate Policy

SpidermanTUba

04-28-2010, 10:03 AM

If police stopped you randomly on the street, would you have proof of U.S. citizenship?

No. I have a driver's license, but that was never good enough for proof of citizenship to work, so I don't see why it would prove it in any other situation. You always need your SS card or Birth certificate to go along with your license - or a passport.

As an aside - I know a guy who doesn't drive, he carries his passport as ID to get into bars and go to the bank and such. While in Flagstaff Arizona, he was actually refused entry to a bar based on the fact he had a passport and not a driver's license or state issued ID. Kind of ridiculous.

Little-Acorn

04-28-2010, 10:04 AM

Notice how little gabby tries to insinuate that cops will now "stop you randomly on the street", although that's no part of the new Arizona law?

Leftists always deal in falsehood and innuendo - facts and truth have no place in their agenda.

gabosaurus

04-28-2010, 10:05 AM

LA, you didn't answer the question.

SpidermanTUba

04-28-2010, 10:07 AM

Notice how little gabby tries to insinuate that cops will now "stop you randomly on the street", although that's no part of the new Arizona law?

It doesn't have to be an explicit part of the law for it to happen. Is that hard to grasp?

pete311

04-28-2010, 10:07 AM

You should always carry some ID. If I get hit by a car I want to be identified quickly for my family.

SpidermanTUba

04-28-2010, 10:10 AM

You should always carry some ID. If I get hit by a car I want to be identified quickly for my family.

A driver's license does not constitute proof of citizenship. You'll need that and a birth certificate - or your passport - to not get arrested for being on the street in Arizona.

SpidermanTUba

04-28-2010, 10:13 AM

I'm curious as to what you folks think might constitute "reasonable suspicion" that someone is here illegally.

If they look Mexican - that's not reasonable suspicion, plenty of Mexican looking citizens here.

If they don't speak English - there's plenty of non English speaking legal residents in this country, and in addition those over a certain age are not required to learn English to naturalize ( I think its age 55) - so nor is that reasonable suspicion.

pete311

04-28-2010, 10:13 AM

A driver's license does not constitute proof of citizenship. You'll need that and a birth certificate - or your passport - to not get arrested for being on the street in Arizona.

A valid drivers requires proof of United States citizenship. Follow the logic.

gabosaurus

04-28-2010, 10:23 AM

A valid drivers requires proof of United States citizenship. Follow the logic.

Actually, it doesn't.

pete311

04-28-2010, 10:27 AM

Actually, it doesn't.

It appears you are correct. I was reading from an "Enhanced Driver License" source.

HogTrash

04-28-2010, 10:28 AM

No I can't prove it, other than the obvious fact that I do not fit the normal profile of the typical illegal alien.

That is why we must allow the police to use their experience, street smarts and common sense to scrutinize suspects with reasonable racial profiling, language analyzation and other sensible tools to determine their legal status.

The problems that profiling will cause is nothing compared to the problems doing nothing will cause...It's not rocket science...I can spot an illegal alien with 80% accuracy from across the street.

HappyCamperKitteh

04-28-2010, 10:30 AM

The only way to truly prove you were a citizen would be to show off your social security card, your birth certificate and evidently, random word of mouth helps too. Hopefully, as rapid prototyping improves, we can have devices that electronically hold that information -- and it would considered an official document instead of a copy. Most people don't carry that stuff around, so my guess is that most people will rely on good ol' racism.

P.S. That last sentence was sarcasm. It's really sad, actually.

Jaaaman

04-28-2010, 10:35 AM

I carry my Drivers License and Social Security Card with me everywhere I go in public. Yes... I can most definately prove that I am indeed a US citizen. :cool:

HogTrash

04-28-2010, 10:37 AM

Mr. P

04-28-2010, 10:37 AM

namvet

04-28-2010, 10:40 AM

well look what crawled in under the door

SpidermanTUba

04-28-2010, 10:46 AM

I have my DL. When I got it you had to present a U.S. birth cert. So yeah, my DL is proof. If need be I'd care a copy of my birth cert in the glove box along with registration and proof of insurance that's already there.

Brilliant logic.

Unfortunately you can't use a driver's license as proof of citizenship.

* Previously issued, undamaged US passport
* Certified birth certificate issued by the city, county or state of birth
* Consular Report of Birth (of U.S. citizen) Abroad or Certification of Birth
* Naturalization Certificate
* Certificate of Citizenship

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/proofofcitzenship.htm

If they accepted a license as proof of citizenship, what fucking good would it do anyway? A lot of illegals HAVE driver's licenses that they get with false documents or in state's that don't require proof of legal residency for a driver's license.

Mr. P

04-28-2010, 10:53 AM

Brilliant logic.

Unfortunately you can't use a driver's license as proof of citizenship.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/proofofcitzenship.htm

If they accepted a license as proof of citizenship, what fucking good would it do anyway? A lot of illegals HAVE driver's licenses that they get with false documents or in state's that don't require proof of legal residency for a driver's license.

If stopped in this state that required a birth cert to issue my dl it's proof. But yes, documents can be forged. Another issue all together.

Insein

04-28-2010, 01:16 PM

No there is no way to reasonable prove you are a citizen if you are pulled over. However, if you are arrested and brought to the precinct, they can determine if you are a citizen or not by looking it up.

The point of the Arizona law is to enforce what is already Federal law. If someone is arrested and reasonable cause is there that they may be illegal, then it will be checked.

hortysir

04-28-2010, 01:26 PM

Coming up on hurricane season, so very shortly my locksafe will be in the trunk of my car.
It has my birth certificate and my DD214. That, along with my DL and SS card, should be sufficient.
Thanks for asking, though!!
Reminded me to start preparing :thumb:

Trigg

04-28-2010, 01:31 PM

They had a discussion over this on MSNBC last night with an Arizona cop and the question was asked "what would lead you to ask for citizenship"?

I thought the officer answered the question well. He stated he would not ask if they were illegal if there wasn't a reason to, only if the person did something wrong, speeding, robbery etc. There will be no stopping people on the street, though the loony libs would love to have people believe this fairy tail.

Anyone driving a car will have ID. There are only 13 states that give a license to anyone. If they have a drivers license that will be taken as proof that they are in the country legally, according to this officer. He stated that if a person with a greencard (which he said needs to be carried at all times) is stopped the police would assume they are here legally as well. Ditto for a person carrying a passport from another country, since it should be stamped, when they entered the country.

gabosaurus

04-28-2010, 04:32 PM

No I can't prove it, other than the obvious fact that I do not fit the normal profile of the typical illegal alien.

There is nothing that says uneducated racist rednecks can't be illegal aliens.

Jaaaman

04-28-2010, 04:42 PM

There is nothing that says uneducated racist rednecks can't be illegal aliens.

He said that he did not fit the profile of an illegal alien. What part of that did you not understand? Why was it necessary for you to make the offhand remark about racist rednecks?

MtnBiker

04-28-2010, 04:48 PM

If police stopped you randomly on the street, would you have proof of U.S. citizenship?

Simple, I could just show them my state issued id and a copy of my federal tax return.

HogTrash

04-28-2010, 05:18 PM

There is nothing that says uneducated racist rednecks can't be illegal aliens.This is true, but if there are any "uneducated racist redneck illegal aliens", their certainly not flooding across the border by the millions and draining billions of dollars a year of American taxpayer funded resources.

In your expert opinion, which do you believe is the greater burden on American resources, "uneducated racist redneck" illegal aliens or "latin american" illegal aliens? :confused:

DragonStryk72

04-28-2010, 06:42 PM

A valid drivers requires proof of United States citizenship. Follow the logic.

No, no, you're being logical, not governmental. Spidey's right here, it isn't proof of citizenship.

DragonStryk72

04-28-2010, 06:43 PM

Simple, I could just show them my state issued id and a copy of my federal tax return.

Um..... okay, you actually carry that with you everywhere? that's a new one on me. Remember, most cops won't give you time to go home and get it, they'll just take you in.

MtnBiker

04-28-2010, 07:33 PM

Remember, most cops won't give you time to go home and get it

They would before the tried to deport me.

SassyLady

04-29-2010, 12:22 AM

Social security cards and "green cards" are counterfieted as easily as making a photocopy....so I can't see either being used to prove citizenship. Also, most illegals that have paid to have these papers produced don't want to carry them on their person because they may be lost or stolen, so they keep them at home, safely put away because they cannot afford to get them replaced.

As for carrying your "citizenship" i.d. in the glove box ..... I am so frequently in someone else's car that I would need to keep it on my person....and my passport doesn't fit in my wallet so I'm sure it will soon become well worn.

I see this whole illegal immigrant issue as a step towards a national i.d. card that will contain all your personal information ..... or, heck, why not just get a microchip implanted and have all law enforcement carry a scanner they can just wave over us to see if we are citizens.

I guess the moral of the story is ........... don't do anything illegal, and if you do, and you fit the profile of an illegal, and you can't produce legitimate i.d. when asked, then prepare to be inconvenienced until they realize they can't deport because you are a citizen.

I still believe that more illegals, committing crimes, will be rounded up and sent home than actual Americans will be inconvenienced.

82Marine89

04-29-2010, 12:27 AM

If police stopped you randomly on the street, would you have proof of U.S. citizenship?

Since I was born here I'm a Native American.:salute:

SpidermanTUba

04-29-2010, 12:29 AM

Can you prove you are an American?

You do realize that all Mexicans are also Americans, right?

SassyLady

04-29-2010, 12:38 AM

You do realize that all Mexicans are also Americans, right?

OK - so perhaps the question should be "can you prove you are a United States citizen?"

All Mexicans are Americans? Answer this one? I know someone born in Mexico who became an American citizen and then married a man from Kuwait and has lived in Kuwait for last 15 years. Are her children who were born in Kuwait Mexican, American, or Kuwaiti?

SpidermanTUba

04-29-2010, 12:41 AM

OK - so perhaps the question should be "can you prove you are a United States citizen?"

All Mexicans are Americans? Answer this one? I know someone born in Mexico who became an American citizen and then married a man from Kuwait and has lived in Kuwait for last 15 years. Are her children who were born in Kuwait Mexican, American, or Kuwaiti?

I have no idea. All I know is that people who live on the continent of Asia are Asians. People who live on the continent of Africa are Africans. People who live on the continent of Europe are Europeans. Stands to reason anyone living on the supercontinent of America is an American, right?

SassyLady

04-29-2010, 01:04 AM

I have no idea. All I know is that people who live on the continent of Asia are Asians.

What about the Russians - isn't most of Russia in Asia (and some of it in Europe)? Do they refer to themselves as Asian or European?

People who live on the continent of Africa are Africans. People who live on the continent of Europe are Europeans. Stands to reason anyone living on the supercontinent of America is an American, right?

My girlfriend, who was born in Madagascar has never referred to herself as African.

Another friend of mine was born in Brazil.....never heard him refer to himself as American or even South American.

SpidermanTUba

04-29-2010, 01:09 AM

What about the Russians - isn't most of Russia in Asia (and some of it in Europe)? Do they refer to themselves as Asian or European?

Some Russians are Asian, some are European.

My girlfriend, who was born in Madagascar has never referred to herself as African.

Germans call themselves Germans, doesn't change the fact they are also Europeans.

SassyLady

04-29-2010, 01:23 AM

Some Russians are Asian, some are European.

Germans call themselves Germans, doesn't change the fact they are also Europeans.

So it all comes down to what one calls themselves. Canadians call themselves Canadian - not American. Mexicans call themselves Mexican, not American. In fact, I don't think anyone not born in the United States refer to themselves as "American" even if they were born in North, Central or South America.

So, let's not get stuck on technicalities .... you know that the OP was referring to proving citizenship in the US .... and most of us understood what she was asking.

revelarts

04-29-2010, 01:42 AM

revelarts

04-29-2010, 02:03 AM

Where do rights and probably cause come into play?
What the HELL is a Checkpoint doing in the USA.

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PostmodernProphet

04-29-2010, 07:11 AM

LA, you didn't answer the question.

actually, the answer is provided by the Arizona statute......and it provides that if one shows an Arizona driver's license it is sufficient proof of citizenship.......

gabosaurus

04-29-2010, 11:09 AM

Trigg

04-29-2010, 11:24 AM

If an illegal happens to have a driver's license, does this put them in the clear? If so, I predict a booming business for those who produce fake licenses.

Whatever the case, I predict this law will substantially increase the income of my cousin's husband. He is an immigration lawyer.

From everything I've read or heard about this new law, YES a driver's license is going to be sufficient proof of citizenship.

Also the police are only going to ask citizenship questions of those that they pull over or are being questioned for some other reason. In those two cases they RUN THE ID NUMBER. This should catch most fake ID's, at least those in Arizona.

gabosaurus

04-29-2010, 12:21 PM

Also the police are only going to ask citizenship questions of those that they pull over or are being questioned for some other reason. In those two cases they RUN THE ID NUMBER. This should catch most fake ID's, at least those in Arizona.

Citizenship questions? What the hell would that be? Mantle's batting average in 1961? Britney Spears' bra size? Come on.

In case you are not familiar with the production of fake IDs, the numbers are normally either stolen and fed into the system.

I predict that Arizona is going to be overrun by law suits. Who will pay for defending these legal actions? The citizens of Arizona.

HogTrash

04-29-2010, 01:26 PM

I have no idea. All I know is that people who live on the continent of Asia are Asians. People who live on the continent of Africa are Africans. People who live on the continent of Europe are Europeans. Stands to reason anyone living on the supercontinent of America is an American, right?Technically there are three Americas...North America - Central America - South America...North America has only two nations...The United States and Canada.

Because the United States Of America is the only nation that uses the continental reference in it's full name, many people refer to it's citizens as "Americans".

Get it? :salute:

Binky

04-29-2010, 04:45 PM

My hubby works for GM in their robotics dept..... He was informed last week that all employees were going to have to have a passport..... Sounds strange since it is not needed to travel around the US.....But with all the illegals in the country and terrorism around the world, they've decided it was better to make it mandatory for the passport..... The company checked into his army records and discovered he was indeed who he said he was and has made arrangements for him to have a passport.... Soooooooooooooo......when the time comes that we will be able to take the trip we've been wanting to, he won't have to bother with getting one, since he'll already have it.... All he'll have to do is get whatever shots he'll need about a month before take off.....

I have mixed feelings on this checkpoint stuff.....I partly believe that if you have nothing to hide it shouldn't be a problem.....And then............I also feel this is a control factor and keeping track of the citizens..... And watching those vids has creeped me out.... Makes me feel as tho' we're turning into Nazi Germany.....Or China..... :eek:

BoogyMan

04-29-2010, 05:43 PM

If police stopped you randomly on the street, would you have proof of U.S. citizenship?

Hmmmm, lets see, Social Security card, drivers license, etc....always on hand. Yeah, I do believe that I could. Once the officer does a lookup on the info from those forms of ID my citizenship can easily be confirmed.

82Marine89

04-29-2010, 06:45 PM

Technically there are three Americas...North America - Central America - South America...North America has only two nations...The United States and Canada.

Because the United States Of America is the only nation that uses the continental reference in it's full name, many people refer to it's citizens as "Americans".

Get it? :salute:

So Mexico is not part of North America? You are a victim of political stupidity. Central America is made up of seven countries...

Belize
Costa Rica
El Salvador
Guatemala
Honduras
Nicaragua
Panama

North America has three nations...

The United States of America
Canada
Mexico

Now you can torment me with your stupid one-liners and smiley faces.

Trigg

04-29-2010, 07:08 PM

Citizenship questions? What the hell would that be? Mantle's batting average in 1961? Britney Spears' bra size? Come on.

In case you are not familiar with the production of fake IDs, the numbers are normally either stolen and fed into the system.

I predict that Arizona is going to be overrun by law suits. Who will pay for defending these legal actions? The citizens of Arizona.

You asked if a drivers license was going to be taken as proof of citizenship. I answered yes, from everything I've read and heard, yes they will be taken as proof.

Stop trying to be so argumentative all the time and actually listen.

Citizenship questions, "Do you have drivers license?" "If not why don't you have it with you?" "Do you have a passport?" "Do you have a green card?" These are all questions they could ask to determine if a person is in this country illegally, here as a tourist, a legal worker or a citizen.

Sheriff Arpaio has been watched very closely for years now and accused of racial profilling. If Arizona hasn't already been overrun with lawsuits I don't see this law causing any.