Christians - are we replacing People with God?

[darin]

Very frank and honest discussion about a damaging piece of Theology I know I was taught in the institutional Church. A couple of interesting lines:

"Look for the answer in your own heart...it's scary because we are not supposed to trust ourselves. We are deemed powerless...we are to maintain impotency...we are not to trust ourselves...we are only to look to GOD for (every) answer. ...as if He created us in his image...to be His bitch."


Nothing really interesting until the 12 minute mark. First 12 minutes is a way-too-long song...then babbling about the Arizona Immigration Law...but the rest of the podcast is very interesting. Discussion is frank, and probably for mid-teen and older audiences


Many of us have been made to feel that if we desire companionship with another human being, we’re doing something wrong because we haven’t found complete fulfillment in Christ. Believe it or not, there are some areas in our lives that God has specifically designed to be lived out with other people. True spirituality is not when we replace those areas with our relationship with God, but when we embrace the fact that He designed us to find fulfillment in people. Unfortunately many well meaning people have been taught that any desire we have that is not centered on God Himself is sinful. This is just plain wrong.


http://freebelievers.com/podcast-info/midweek-people-replacement

[hortysir]

"Frank"?
I agree.
"Honest"?
Without scriptural reference I cannot agree.

"Free believer" sounds like another way of saying, "without the Bible".
What is so wrong with putting God first in our lives?
He put us first. He gave us dominion over the earth and everything thereof.
He sacrificed Himself for us, and we're not supposed to, at least, try to do the same for Him?

This whole podcast sounds exactly like what I've said, for a while, is wrong with preachers and churches these days.
It's a 'feel good about yourself first' religion.
All they like to preach is the reward, the happy stuff, the shiny, the pretty.....
All too often the "fire and brimstone" part of the sermon is pushed aside.
"The wages of sin is death" is ignored.
The focus is, "What's in it for me?" instead of, "How can I glorify Him?".

Sorry, DMP, just not the way I was raised.....or, even, what I've read and studied through the years.

[darin]

When thinking through the trials we face or specific instances in our lives, citing scripture is often impossible. That is to say - a truth can be a truth without a biblical reference.

Do you find any contradiction to scripture in their discussion? As an aside, do you think it's 'wrong' to feel good about ourselves or our relationship with Christ?

If "all we need is Christ" it's pretty silly for Paul to suggest people might-should marry...or for God to build a companion for Adam...right?

[hortysir]

When thinking through the trials we face or specific instances in our lives, citing scripture is often impossible. That is to say - a truth can be a truth without a biblical reference.

Do you find any contradiction to scripture in their discussion? As an aside, do you think it's 'wrong' to feel good about ourselves or our relationship with Christ?

If "all we need is Christ" it's pretty silly for Paul to suggest people might-should marry...or for God to build a companion for Adam...right?

As to the red highlighted text:
Mt 16:24,25 -- Deny self, i.e., say no to self; not told to self-affirm, self-gratify, or self-actualize.

Lk 9:23 -- Deny self, i.e., put self to death, daily; not told to self-affirm, self-gratify, or self-actualize.

Mt 20:26,27 -- The great are the servants, not the ones served.

Mt 23:11,12 -- The great are the servants; the humble will be exalted.

Lk 22:24-27 -- The servant is the greatest, not the proud.

Lk 14:26 -- Cannot be a disciple of Jesus, unless deny even yourself.

2 Tim 3:2-5 -- "Lovers of Self" listed with other "detestable" sins such as slanderers, the treacherous, abusive, proud, conceited; therefore, high self-esteem/pride is a sin!

Jn 12:25 -- Lover of one's own life (self) will lose eternal life.

Jn 13:16,17 -- Humble service is a command.

Jn 15:5 -- Apart from God, i.e., lover of self vs. lover of God, you can do nothing.


As to the Blue highlighted text:
No, I don't think it's wrong to feel good about ourselves as long as we have the "pecking order" right! :thumb:

[darin]

Could you help me by telling me 'what the hell' those mean..in real practical senses? I also don't know the context behind any. Would you suspect or expect I read the chapters or large portions to get the context for those particular instructions to ensure they are on-topic?

Honestly, would benefit everyone if you just said what you mean and not throw out random Christianeze-type bible verses.

[hortysir]

Let's look at this one since it's shortest in size and context:

Jn 13:16,17 -- Humble service is a command.

John 13:16 I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.


What I'm trying to say, in human-eze, is that the commentators ( I call them that because they can't be ordained ministers) in the pod-cast are polar opposite of what the Bible says.
Scripture after scripture tells us to put Him first and ourselves last.
It really can't be any clearer than that.
Whether one likes it or agrees with it is irrelevant, according to the Bible.
You either accept the Bible as the living, breathing, inspired word of God or you just make it up as you go along. (as the commentators are apparently doing)

[Mr. P]

"Frank"?
I agree.
"Honest"?
Without scriptural reference I cannot agree.

"Free believer" sounds like another way of saying, "without the Bible".
What is so wrong with putting God first in our lives?
He put us first. He gave us dominion over the earth and everything thereof.
He sacrificed Himself for us, and we're not supposed to, at least, try to do the same for Him?

This whole podcast sounds exactly like what I've said, for a while, is wrong with preachers and churches these days.
It's a 'feel good about yourself first' religion.
All they like to preach is the reward, the happy stuff, the shiny, the pretty.....
All too often the "fire and brimstone" part of the sermon is pushed aside.
"The wages of sin is death" is ignored.
The focus is, "What's in it for me?" instead of, "How can I glorify Him?".

Sorry, DMP, just not the way I was raised.....or, even, what I've read and studied through the years.

And which Convent or Monastery to you belong ?

Just wondering.

[darin]

Let's look at this one since it's shortest in size and context:

Jn 13:16,17 -- Humble service is a command.

John 13:16 I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.


And how do you see that relating to the subject matter? Do you assume unhappiness is a prerequisite for humility - that's the only point I can see you may be making...


What I'm trying to say, in human-eze, is that the commentators ( I call them that because they can't be ordained ministers) in the pod-cast are polar opposite of what the Bible says.
Scripture after scripture tells us to put Him first and ourselves last.
It really can't be any clearer than that.

I wonder if we heard the same podcast. I never heard anyone mention putting themselves ahead of God. I heard people putting GOD first in the lives of people. And if GOD Is first, the little shit won't much matter...the little shit being: Confusing desire with lust. Confusing attraction with lust. Confusing humility and happiness. etc.


Whether one likes it or agrees with it is irrelevant, according to the Bible.
You either accept the Bible as the living, breathing, inspired word of God or you just make it up as you go along. (as the commentators are apparently doing)

Can you point to anything specific they said which contradicts the bible? I got a feelin what they said contradicts your opinion, thus, you may be forcing scripture on the situation in an attempt to feel better about what you may have been taught.

'course I'm speculating - just going off what you've posted.

[hortysir]

I wonder if we heard the same podcast. I never heard anyone mention putting themselves ahead of God. I heard people putting GOD first in the lives of people. And if GOD Is first, the little shit won't much matter...the little shit being: Confusing desire with lust. Confusing attraction with lust. Confusing humility and happiness. etc.




What I was hearing was what sounded like ridiculing someone for putting God 1st.
Of course that was, what, 6 hours ago and I'm working my 6th consecutive double.
Chances are we probably agree on a lot more fine points than we don't.
I'm getting bleary and will try to return more clearly over my next few days off.



Sidebar:
Mr.P I assure you I wouldn't be allowed even near a monastery!:D
I can only offer my own interpretations

[darin]

What I was hearing was what sounded like ridiculing someone for putting God 1st.
Of course that was, what, 6 hours ago and I'm working my 6th consecutive double.
Chances are we probably agree on a lot more fine points than we don't.
I'm getting bleary and will try to return more clearly over my next few days off.



Then, when you're rested...I'd challenge you to listen to them like you should might-wanna read the bible; with more concern over the message being sent than the specific words. :)

:cheers2:

[hortysir]

Fair enuff
:beer:

[avatar4321]

Interesting question.

I'm going to have to answer no. Here's why:

When we come closer to God we begin to understand things more like He does and see people through His eyes. If we are coming closer to God, we will be drawn to help lift our fellow man. When you feel the love of God, you can't help but share it with others. When you understand His plan, you can't help but serve others.

So I would think that if you are replacing your fellow man with God, then you really aren't developing much of a relationship with Him as you might assume.

[darin]

I have to counter that just a bit with the example of Adam. No man in recorded history likely had a closer relationship with God...and yet God found Adam lonely. Can't be both ways - either we can have needs God alone doesn't fill, or we do not.

[BoogyMan]

The fact that you can quote this and actually agree with it is mind boggling, dmp.

The prophet Jeremiah disagrees with you.


O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

[darin]

The fact that you can quote this and actually agree with it is mind boggling, dmp.

The prophet Jeremiah disagrees with you.

Quote what? Agree with what? Those on the podcast? Can you point to anything they said which is in stark contrast to guidance from Scripture? I couldn't find anything and I listened several times.

If I had to condense what I think they are saying into a line I'd say "People shouldn't feel the need to repent for being Human. Our biological needs and companionship needs are real, valid, and God-given."

And - what does Jeremiah mean with that? I'm sure that scripture wasn't written in King James...what's he saying there? What's that about man directing his steps? Whose steps? His own? hrm...The way of man is not in himself? Wha? What's 'the way of man'? What is "it"?

Whatever "it" was, was "it" in Jesus? He was fully Man, too. In fact, Jesus loved people around him. He craved relationships. There was no sin in Him.

I'll never understand how christians get all itchy when confronted with ideas that make Christianity EASY...that make loving Christ EASY to do. It's as if christians would lose their salvation if they didn't have to work VERY HARD to keep it.

[BoogyMan]

Quote what? Agree with what? Those on the podcast? Can you point to anything they said which is in stark contrast to guidance from Scripture? I couldn't find anything and I listened several times.

If I had to condense what I think they are saying into a line I'd say "People shouldn't feel the need to repent for being Human. Our biological needs and companionship needs are real, valid, and God-given."

And - what does Jeremiah mean with that? I'm sure that scripture wasn't written in King James...what's he saying there? What's that about man directing his steps? Whose steps? His own? hrm...The way of man is not in himself? Wha? What's 'the way of man'? What is "it"?

Whatever "it" was, was "it" in Jesus? He was fully Man, too. In fact, Jesus loved people around him. He craved relationships. There was no sin in Him.

I'll never understand how christians get all itchy when confronted with ideas that make Christianity EASY...that make loving Christ EASY to do. It's as if christians would lose their salvation if they didn't have to work VERY HARD to keep it.

What??? Is your answer to everything you cannot rebut an attempt to discredit the scripture?

[Abbey Marie]

Interesting question.

I'm going to have to answer no. Here's why:

When we come closer to God we begin to understand things more like He does and see people through His eyes. If we are coming closer to God, we will be drawn to help lift our fellow man. When you feel the love of God, you can't help but share it with others. When you understand His plan, you can't help but serve others.

So I would think that if you are replacing your fellow man with God, then you really aren't developing much of a relationship with Him as you might assume.

Nail/Head. :beer:

[darin]

What??? Is your answer to everything you cannot rebut an attempt to discredit the scripture?

That's a stupid question. I asked "What the hell is he talking about, because I don't speak king james english".

It's like you're quoting from a German bible. I recognize letters, but I
"dont talk that way".

Instead of getting persnickity - maybe just translate that into something that makes sense? It's the translation I'm discrediting, because KJV bibles are stupid/useless to me. :)

[hortysir]

I have to counter that just a bit with the example of Adam. No man in recorded history likely had a closer relationship with God...and yet God found Adam lonely. Can't be both ways - either we can have needs God alone doesn't fill, or we do not.
This was just the closest post for me to quote.
If I'm reading correctly (my connection, at home, is slower than frozen molasses for some reason so I'm *still waiting* for the podcast to load) your beef is with the organized church for bashing single people into being subservient to God and to quit trying to find a companion(?)

[darin]

My beef? Thought we were talking about the Podcast..

But there is a legitimate concern with the church's unrealistic and really impossible guilting people into feeling the need to repent for biological or normal desires.

Here's an example:

Guy: I really like this girl...she might be The One for me
Pastor: Focus on God. God is all you need. You shouldn't even TALK to her without first GOD giving you the okay!
Guy: B-But...I just want to date her?
Pastor: Only in group settings and never notice her physical attributes. Have you noticed her physical attributes?
Guy: Uh..yeah...She's hot
Paster: PRAY WITH ME RIGHT NOW! Dear Lord just right now dear God heal this brother dear god and dear god just forgive his lust dear god and father god just in the name of jesus we cast out the demon of lust dear god holy lord dear jesus.
Guy: Um...should I NOT be attracted to ladies?
Pastor: That's LUST!!!
Guy: Aren't men and women supposed to be drawn to one-another?
Pastor: ALL YOU NEED IS GOD!!
Guy: Adam needed more than God - was Adam harboring the "demon of lust"
Pastor: DONT DISCREDIT SCRIPTURE!!! GOD Said ALL YOU NEED IS HIM!! OH! COME OUT SPIRIT OF HUMANITY!!!
Guy: So - God made us...in HIS image...like him in many ways...with a desire for human companionship which we should never 'give into'??
Pastor: Now you're ready to be a christian!!
Guy: Christianity seems like a contradiction...and sucks.

etc...

[hortysir]

I'd have to agree then, given that extreme example.
I would, also, have to pray that there's not a church so hard-core.
Of course God gave us to each other as companions.
According to the voices in the audio clip, there shouldn't be a ranking system with God being first.
They were even laughing at the mere thought of putting an invisible man first in their life.
Between these extremes one can keep God close in their life and still love another person with the love they deserve.
Without the understanding of the depth of God's love for us can we try to emulate it with another?
Paul does try to teach the people of Corinth that marriage can be a distraction from giving yourself fully to the Lord because you do tend to focus a lot on your partner. At the same time, as it goes to the subject of the podcast, he makes it clear that marrying is NOT a Sin.

It saddens me that single people are being pushed away from God by these churches that would make their congregation think that they can't have a partner.
But, if that is the case, maybe it's for the best because that church isn't trying to relay the Gospel of Love.

I hope this was a little more coherent for you, DMP.
:beer:

[BoogyMan]

That's a stupid question. I asked "What the hell is he talking about, because I don't speak king james english".

It's like you're quoting from a German bible. I recognize letters, but I
"dont talk that way".

Instead of getting persnickity - maybe just translate that into something that makes sense? It's the translation I'm discrediting, because KJV bibles are stupid/useless to me. :)

This is little more than deflection due to the fact that you don't have the bible knowledge to even know such passages are even there, my friend. Persnickety is not what I handed you, it is simply truth. Is plain spoken truth now to be considered "persnickety?"

The passage clearly points out that man should not be his own guide to his direction, rather it should be God that guides mans steps.

[gabosaurus]

Very interesting passages dmp. thanks for posting.

[darin]

This is little more than deflection due to the fact that you don't have the bible knowledge to even know such passages are even there, my friend. Persnickety is not what I handed you, it is simply truth. Is plain spoken truth now to be considered "persnickety?"

The passage clearly points out that man should not be his own guide to his direction, rather it should be God that guides mans steps.

Dude - that passage does nothing of the sort. And further more, God directing our steps is not even close to this particular topic.

I have a *lot* of Bible-education bro. I know scripture pretty well. It just's just terrible when people rely on King James English when discussion scripture - because that language doesn't much mean anything anymore.

[avatar4321]

I have to counter that just a bit with the example of Adam. No man in recorded history likely had a closer relationship with God...and yet God found Adam lonely. Can't be both ways - either we can have needs God alone doesn't fill, or we do not.

I can't disagree with that completely. After all Paul did say:



11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. (1 Cor 11:11)

[Abbey Marie]

I can't disagree with that completely. After all Paul did say:

So Av, do you think that companionship replaces the relationship with God, or in some way supplements or enhances it?

[darin]

replaces God in some respect, I'd say...or said another way, touches us in ways God's existence 'format' doesn't. Not to say God can't complete us - just thinking He rarely does.

[hortysir]

replaces God in some respect, I'd say...or said another way, touches us in ways God's existence 'format' doesn't. Not to say God can't complete us - just thinking He rarely does.
And, in your opinion, whose fault would that be?

[BoogyMan]

Dude - that passage does nothing of the sort. And further more, God directing our steps is not even close to this particular topic.

I have a *lot* of Bible-education bro. I know scripture pretty well. It just's just terrible when people rely on King James English when discussion scripture - because that language doesn't much mean anything anymore.

LOL, go read it in the New American Standard, your point is still destroyed. LOL

You are claiming, time and again, that man has to deal with all kinds of situations that God doesn't provide him any tools to get through, Jeremiah makes that assertion not only false but quite demonstrably false. All that bible education you claim to hold is failing you, my friend.

[darin]

And, in your opinion, whose fault would that be?

Fault? I don't know if there IS a fault.





LOL, go read it in the New American Standard, your point is still destroyed. LOL

You are claiming, time and again, that man has to deal with all kinds of situations that God doesn't provide him any tools to get through, Jeremiah makes that assertion not only false but quite demonstrably false. All that bible education you claim to hold is failing you, my friend.


Okay man - If you want to quote random scriptures which do not relate to the topic and claim VICTORY in the discussion because if it, I cannot help you.

[BoogyMan]

It was YOU claiming that the God has not prepared man for the things he has to deal with everyday, Jeremiah disagrees with you. I will stand with the prophet of God. :)

[hortysir]

Fault? I don't know if there IS a fault.


It just sounded like you were blaming God for not "being there" is all.

You haven't responded to my earlier, more in-depth, reply BTW

:beer:

[darin]

It was YOU claiming that the God has not prepared man for the things he has to deal with everyday, Jeremiah disagrees with you. I will stand with the prophet of God. :)

You must making stuff up now? What ever gave you that idea? In fact, that is so hilariously opposite of what I believe and the points i've made here I think you're just fucking with me.



It just sounded like you were blaming God for not "being there" is all.

You haven't responded to my earlier, more in-depth, reply BTW

:beer:

No need - your reply was sound. I appreciate your comments and input. When you don't agree, you don't turn into a churchian bitch. You simply talk about stuff. There's no Arrogance behind your posts as there are with others. You don't seem afraid to ask or be asked questions about things Churchians recite over and over again and call it truth.

:)

[BoogyMan]

You must making stuff up now? What ever gave you that idea? In fact, that is so hilariously opposite of what I believe and the points i've made here I think you're just fucking with me.

What gave me that idea? You insistence that the Bible doesn't prepare man for his every day life. You have made comments like that several times. Nice language big guy.

[darin]

What gave me that idea? You insistence that the Bible doesn't prepare man for his every day life. You have made comments like that several times. Nice language big guy.

Except I've never said that or insulated that. What I've said is "God is BIGGER than the Bible" and "the bible doesn't address every issue we face - nor was it intended to"

[BoogyMan]

Except I've never said that or insulated that. What I've said is "God is BIGGER than the Bible" and "the bible doesn't address every issue we face - nor was it intended to"

If it is not within man to direct his own steps, as Jeremiah has written, the Bible most certainly DOES contain all that man needs....and it was most definitely intended to. You seem to be arguing in circles on this.

[darin]

If it is not within man to direct his own steps, as Jeremiah has written, the Bible most certainly DOES contain all that man needs....and it was most definitely intended to. You seem to be arguing in circles on this.

You're saying "If God directs our steps, tells us how to go, we'll never need or want or desire."

That's a goofy concept and in stark contradiction with the story of Adam.

Oh...and

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1777&stc=1&d=1272969269

[avatar4321]

What gave me that idea? You insistence that the Bible doesn't prepare man for his every day life. You have made comments like that several times. Nice language big guy.

Are you suggesting the Bible is the only tool the Lord has given us in our lives?


If it is not within man to direct his own steps, as Jeremiah has written, the Bible most certainly DOES contain all that man needs....and it was most definitely intended to. You seem to be arguing in circles on this.

But when Jeremiah spoke/wrote, the Bible as we know it didn't exist. Heck, Christ hadn't even been born yet. Are you suggesting that somehow that everything God gave the people up to Jeremiah is enough and that we should ignore everything afterwards?


If it is not within man to direct his own steps, as Jeremiah has written, the Bible most certainly DOES contain all that man needs....and it was most definitely intended to. You seem to be arguing in circles on this.

Then why is it that the Apostles went around giving men the Gift of the Holy Ghost instead of a set of scriptures for them to read?

Are you saying that anyone before the coming of the printing press and the availability of the Bible will be condemned?