From the files of: We have no proof, but lets make a law anyway...

[darin]

State of WA - hey! This sounds familiar! LOTS of places are making laws about things (cough)man-made-global-warming(cough) without the evidence to back it up! Lack of evidence was NEVER a reason to NOT pass laws...-




SEATTLE (AP) - When a driver hits the brakes, friction releases copper shavings that fall onto the road and are eventually washed into rivers, where environmentalists say the metal could pose a hazard to marine life - especially salmon, one of the Pacific Northwest's most prized products.

Washington state responded to the problem last month by becoming the first in the nation to pass a law to phase out the use of copper in brake pads. The move could eventually make copper-free pads the industry standard in the U.S.

"You think about all of this traffic, every day on the road, braking and going," said Curt Hart, spokesman for Washington Department of Ecology. "All of it in total starts to really make a difference."

The new law bans brake pads containing more than 5 percent copper starting in 2021. The allowable amount could drop almost to zero in 2023 if manufacturers show it is possible.

California lawmakers have considered similar legislation, and industry officials expect other states to follow Washington's lead.

The auto industry did not oppose the legislation.

"It was a balanced approach, balancing the needs of our consumers and environmental concerns," said Curt Augustine, policy director for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, a trade group of 11 manufacturers, including Ford, Chrysler and Toyota.

Many brake pads are made of steel, brass and copper fibers - materials designed to create friction and draw off heat. Some contain ceramics, Kevlar and other nonmetallic compounds.

The irony is that copper replaced asbestos as a key ingredient in brake pads in the early 1990s after asbestos was banned as a health danger. Though a federal appeals court overturned part of that ban in 1991, manufacturers continued to use copper.
...............



Researchers have yet to document any instances in nature of copper from urban runoff causing widespread problems for aquatic life.

rest:http://www.komonews.com/news/local/90643739.html

[pete311]

It's called measures of prevention. You don't wait for the ocean to die and then go, "well I guess we should ban copper now". oops too late. They have evidence that can affect the salmon population. I like to eat salmon, so I want them around, thank you.

[Silver]

It's called measures of prevention. You don't wait for the ocean to die and then go, "well I guess we should ban copper now". oops too late. They have evidence that can affect the salmon population. I like to eat salmon, so I want them around, thank you.

Its called, "Idiots making laws" that make life a little more difficult for everyone... and we shouldn't forget the morons that vote them into office.....

[darin]

Its called, "Idiots making laws" that make life a little more difficult for everyone... and we shouldn't forget the morons that vote them into office.....

^^^^ Absolutely correct. Thing is, Seattle-proper owns the elections in that state...Seattle is a Northern San Fransisco wannabe.

[Mr. P]

It's called measures of prevention. You don't wait for the ocean to die and then go, "well I guess we should ban copper now". oops too late. They have evidence that can affect the salmon population. I like to eat salmon, so I want them around, thank you.

How do you suppose they'll prevent the massive amounts of copper deposits in the state from leaching into the streams and rivers, pass a law? :laugh2:

[pete311]

How do you suppose they'll prevent the massive amounts of copper deposits in the state from leaching into the streams and rivers, pass a law? :laugh2:

Copper ore (contains about 1% copper) is mined in deep pits. It's not going to wash away from normal rain.

You guys are ignoring two important pieces of the article.


The auto industry did not oppose the legislation.

This means the costs of using an alternative must be low.


The industry believes it can produce a safe and reasonably priced brake pad without copper, said Terry Heffelfinger, director of product engineering for Affinia Global Brake & Chassis, a major brake maker. One alternative may be ceramic brake pads, which have grown in popularity in recent years.

The industry was moving away from copper anyway.

This whole issue is not a big deal.

[82Marine89]

Copper ore (contains about 1% copper) is mined in deep pits. It's not going to wash away from normal rain.

You guys are ignoring two important pieces of the article.

This means the costs of using an alternative must be low.

The industry was moving away from copper anyway.

This whole issue is not a big deal.

News Alert Einstein. The feds own the auto industry. They won't oppose any legislation.

[pete311]

News Alert Einstein. The feds own the auto industry. They won't oppose any legislation.

You can't always play the conspiracy card. Its always about $$$. If an alternative ended up increasing brake prices they'd never do it without more evidence.

[Mr. P]

Copper ore (contains about 1% copper) is mined in deep pits. It's not going to wash away from normal rain.

You guys are ignoring two important pieces of the article.



This means the costs of using an alternative must be low.



The industry was moving away from copper anyway.

This whole issue is not a big deal.

A few thousand yrs of "normal" rain can and will erode earth. In the sediment you'll find more copper in areas of large deposits, like Washington. That sediment will find its way into rivers and streams.

As far as the auto industry and no objection goes..I'll guess that the new pads will be the same price and last 1/2 as long. So in the end the industry makes more $$$ for an inferior product.

[82Marine89]

You can't always play the conspiracy card. Its always about $$$. If an alternative ended up increasing brake prices they'd never do it without more evidence.

No one is playing with foil here. Auto makers don't care because they pass along the cost to the consumer.

[pete311]

A few thousand yrs of "normal" rain can and will erode earth. In the sediment you'll find more copper in areas of large deposits, like Washington. That sediment will find its way into rivers and streams.

I'm no geologist, but I don't think WA even over a few thousand years will erode much from normal rain because of it's amount of vegetation. Anyway, I doubt anyone is thinking about a thousand years from now. Maybe climate changes and WA turns to desert, who knows.


No one is playing with foil here. Auto makers don't care because they pass along the cost to the consumer.

It might cost more and they will pass it to consumers, but it's likely not enough to turn away anyone. If it were vastly more expensive, then...

[LiberalNation]

this law wont hurt anything, maybe ought to think about picking and choosing your battles. Copper in breaks is very low on the priority list.

[MtnBiker]

I like to eat salmon, so I want them around, thank you.

Interesting, fresh, frozen or canned salmon?

[pete311]

Interesting, fresh, frozen or canned salmon?

I've only had it "fresh".

[MtnBiker]

I've only had it "fresh".

Well, chances are the salmon you consumed was farm raised Atlantic salmon then. The brake pads in Washington may or may not be affecting local wild salmon population, but it is unlikely it is effecting your ability to consume "fresh" salmon.

[pete311]

Well, chances are the salmon you consumed was farm raised Atlantic salmon then. The brake pads in Washington may or may not be affecting local wild salmon population, but it is unlikely it is effecting your ability to consume "fresh" salmon.

Yes I believe I recall them being advertised as such. Now I can sleep easy :D

[PostmodernProphet]

725 active copper mines in the state of Washington, yet they figure the reason you can find traces of copper in the rivers is because it's coming from brake pads.....
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.onemine.org%2Fsearch%2Findex. cfm%2Factive-copper-mines-in-washington-state&rct=j&q=copper+mining+in+washington&ei=PuzDS-SaD8-HnQee_q2yCg&usg=AFQjCNHSsfUpURo7OHRJ_g9AzQwWi6eCuw

that ain't "gold in them thar' hills" those rivers are running through.....

[LiberalNation]

oh snap.

[pete311]

that ain't "gold in them thar' hills" those rivers are running through.....

Copper ore is much different than refined copper dust from brakes

[Mr. P]

I'm no geologist, but I don't think WA even over a few thousand years will erode much from normal rain because of it's amount of vegetation. Anyway, I doubt anyone is thinking about a thousand years from now. Maybe climate changes and WA turns to desert, who knows.



It might cost more and they will pass it to consumers, but it's likely not enough to turn away anyone. If it were vastly more expensive, then...

Right..and I"m not thinking in the future, I was thinking thousands of yrs of past rains.

As far as turning folks away due to cost, tell me, can you drive without brakes? It's a gotcha thing. Wanna drive you pay the price.

[pete311]

As far as turning folks away due to cost, tell me, can you drive without brakes? It's a gotcha thing. Wanna drive you pay the price.

If that statement were strictly true then we'd see price gauging right now. People don't accept any price for gas as they freak out when it rises by 20 cents.

[Mr. P]

If that statement were strictly true then we'd see price gauging right now. People don't accept any price for gas as they freak out when it rises by 20 cents.

If the Gov mandates xyz for a product everyone will pass that cost on and you're gonna pay it. You may grump about it but you'll get used to it and pay the price, just like ya do for gas now.

My guess is it will result in an inferior pad priced at current or somewhat more than now but will need replacement more often, thus the overall increased cost.

[DragonStryk72]

It's called measures of prevention. You don't wait for the ocean to die and then go, "well I guess we should ban copper now". oops too late. They have evidence that can affect the salmon population. I like to eat salmon, so I want them around, thank you.


Researchers have yet to document any instances in nature of copper from urban runoff causing widespread problems for aquatic life.

Salmon is aquatic life. They distinctly do not have that. Copper is a naturally occurring element, and can be found along stream beds, in amounts greater than those produced by brake pads, they've been there for thousands of years, so why would it only start to effect the ocean life now?

Look, I'm very pro-environment, really, I love camping, backpacking, and fishing (I agree, Salmon is awesome), but these measures aren't helping. In fact, a lot of the time, they are diverting time and money away from the areas where it is really needed, like getting us off of gas power, getting CPL bulbs on the shelves to save on energy costs all around, those kinds of things.

The government is trying to "help", this of course causing nothing but trouble, following The Wizard's Second Rule (anyone who gets that reference without looking it up is a massive dork).

[DragonStryk72]

You can't always play the conspiracy card. Its always about $$$. If an alternative ended up increasing brake prices they'd never do it without more evidence.

Yes they would, because they can just make the pads cost more to match, since it's a law now. It's an excuse to raise some extra profit, they only get really pissy about it when people start trying for some sort of real change, like the electric car, and that's the oil companies yanking on their chain.

[PostmodernProphet]

Copper ore is much different than refined copper dust from brakes

you know, you're right...copper ore contains things besides copper......however, since the article doesn't talk about contamination from things in copper ore besides copper, it probably doesn't matter that copper ore is different than refined copper, now does it......

perhaps that was too subtle.....copper is copper, and it's the copper that's reportedly effecting the fish......thus, your point is worthless.....

[darin]

you know, you're right...copper ore contains things besides copper......however, since the article doesn't talk about contamination from things in copper ore besides copper, it probably doesn't matter that copper ore is different than refined copper, now does it......

perhaps that was too subtle.....copper is copper, and it's the copper that's reportedly effecting the fish......thus, your point is worthless.....

point of order, bastian of LOVE, the copper is 'suspected' of harming the fish, yet there's been no proof...this is creating law on speculation.

[PostmodernProphet]

point of order, bastian of LOVE, the copper is 'suspected' of harming the fish, yet there's been no proof...this is creating law on speculation.

point of order, Quibbler of Semantics, but that's why I said "reportedly"........

[MtnBiker]

When a driver hits the brakes, friction releases copper shavings that fall onto the road and are eventually washed into rivers, where environmentalists say the metal could pose a hazard to marine life - especially salmon, one of the Pacific Northwest's most prized products.

This really is not a problem, the study did not take into account the huge rise in sea level from all of the melting arctic ice and glaciers. Surely all of this new water will offset any amount of copper leached into water system.

See the internal combustion transportation engine has created balance for itself.

[LiberalNation]

copper is better than mecrury any day of the week.

[82Marine89]

When a driver hits the brakes, friction releases copper shavings that fall onto the road and are eventually washed into rivers, where environmentalists say the metal could pose a hazard to marine life - especially salmon, one of the Pacific Northwest's most prized products.

This really is not a problem, the study did not take into account the huge rise in sea level from all of the melting arctic ice and glaciers. Surely all of this new water will offset any amount of copper leached into water system.

See the internal combustion transportation engine has created balance for itself.

Note they use the word "could", not "Does" or "Shall". This is the left's catch phrase for saying there is ever so slight a possibility it may occur. Thus giving them an excuse to make another law that hurts businesses and does nothing for the environment.

[darin]

point of order, Quibbler of Semantics, but that's why I said "reportedly"........

except it wasn't reported - what was reported was "there's been no evidence..." ;)

www.hop.com

[Monkeybone]

except it wasn't reported - what was reported was "there's been no evidence..." ;)

www.hop.com
duh... by the time you have evidence it is too late D. ie... global warming. :thumb:

[Mr. P]

Note they use the word "could", not "Does" or "Shall". This is the left's catch phrase for saying there is ever so slight a possibility it may occur. Thus giving them an excuse to make another law that hurts businesses and does nothing for the environment.

I saw some show a few weeks ago on the Salmon runs and how some are in decline but they didn't know why as I recall. I think this (copper thing) is no more than grasping at straws to place blame somewhere, anywhere. Typical tree hugger shit.

[pete311]

This really is not a problem, the study did not take into account the huge rise in sea level from all of the melting arctic ice and glaciers. Surely all of this new water will offset any amount of copper leached into water system.


This is crackpot junk science. Salmon spend the first part of their lives in freshwater streams. Fresh water streams come from mountains or the ground, not the ocean ice caps.

[MtnBiker]

This is crackpot junk science. Salmon spend the first part of their lives in freshwater streams. Fresh water streams come from mountains or the ground, not the ocean ice caps.

hilarious, I feel like I've been fishing. :thumb:

[DragonStryk72]

This is crackpot junk science. Salmon spend the first part of their lives in freshwater streams. Fresh water streams come from mountains or the ground, not the ocean ice caps.

what's in mountains? Would it be metals? Would it? props to mtnbiker for running that one

[pete311]

what's in mountains? Would it be metals? Would it? props to mtnbiker for running that one

water running over copper ore is not the same as water mixing with copper dust. afterall you don't see our streams radioactive just because there is uranium ore in the mountains.