There are no moderate muslims

[actsnoblemartin]

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[CSM]

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I dunno Martin, you and some other posters here sound just like the guy in the video who proclaims there are no innocent "infidels". I, for one, am not willing to trade one brand of extremism for another. I understand the reaction to videos like this one and have (in the past) defended this country against extremism (i.e, communism) and will continue to do so. Radicals on either side of an issue rarely help resolve anything.

Make no mistake, I am not some pansy liberal or bleeding heart do-gooder. I have little or no compassion for any country or peoples that would do harm to me, mine or my country. I have taken up arms before on that basis and will most certainly do so again.

[Noir]

Erm, in the video they only refer to extreme and radical Muslims, and thus have no real connection with your thread title that all Muslims are radicals.

Ofcourse there are moderate Muslims. That is not to say they are not a negitive influence in there on way (like spreading ignorenece of scientific fact, and teaching it's followers to not ask questions.)

So unless you have some proof that every one of the billion or so Muslims on the planet want to blow themselves up then statements like 'no moderate Muslims' is nothing short of the talk of a fool.

(Cue a load of folk assuming i'm defending the Islamic faith and that I love Muslims and hate christians lol. )

[CSM]

Erm, in the video they only refer to extreme and radical Muslims, and thus have no real connection with your thread title that all Muslims are radicals.

Ofcourse there are moderate Muslims. That is not to say they are not a negitive influence in there on way (like spreading ignorenece of scientific fact, and teaching it's followers to not ask questions.)

So unless you have some proof that every one of the billion or so Muslims on the planet want to blow themselves up then statements like 'no moderate Muslims' is nothing short of the talk of a fool.

(Cue a load of folk assuming i'm defending the Islamic faith and that I love Muslims and hate christians lol. )


You just love Muslims and hate Christians!

[Noir]

You just love Muslims and hate Christians!

:laugh2:

I also hate Jews aswell, and women, unless they're Muslim women ofcourse ^_^

[pete311]

This video is so biased it's ridiculous. I bet some racist high school student made it in his mommies basement. Of course the vast majority of muslims are moderate. In fact the problem is that they are too passive. I agree with the notion that muslims need activism from within to pacify their ranks and reputation. I've been to five muslim middle east countries and they are filled with some of the warmest people I've ever met. The media and superstition creates a shroud of fear. 99.5% of these people are just nice hard working people trying to make a living and raise their children. In fact most are just as frustrated and pissed off at the terrorists are we are. Problem is that they don't organize and take action.

[CSM]

This video is so biased it's ridiculous. I bet some racist high school student made it in his mommies basement. Of course the vast majority of muslims are moderate. In fact the problem is that they are too passive. I agree with the notion that muslims need activism from within to pacify their ranks and reputation. I've been to five muslim middle east countries and they are filled with some of the warmest people I've ever met. The media and superstition creates a shroud of fear. 99.5% of these people are just nice hard working people trying to make a living and raise their children. In fact most are just as frustrated and pissed off at the terrorists are we are. Problem is that they don't organize and take action.

Hmmm .... replace "muslim" with "conservative" and "terrorist" with "right wing extremist" and lets see how that flies!

[pete311]

Hmmm .... replace "muslim" with "conservative" and "terrorist" with "right wing extremist" and lets see how that flies!

I think it prolly fits just fine and it shows there isn't anything different about the muslim culture. We shouldn't be quick to label and judge an entire populous of any kind.

[CSM]

I think it prolly fits just fine and it shows there isn't anything different about the muslim culture. We shouldn't be quick to label and judge an entire populous of any kind.

And yet you did exactly that by declaring moderate muslims as too passive.

I think it is human nature to categorize people from various cultures. I also think that it is human nature to allow for personal relationships to make exceptions to perceived stereotypes. They remain exceptions however.

[pete311]

And yet you did exactly that by declaring moderate muslims as too passive.

I think it is human nature to categorize people from various cultures. I also think that it is human nature to allow for personal relationships to make exceptions to perceived stereotypes. They remain exceptions however.

Perhaps! I am certainly not against stereotypes. It is a natural convention used by animals to save processing time. However I think at least calling a group passive in hopes they will take action is more productive than saying "fuck islam, they are terrorists"

[CSM]

Perhaps! I am certainly not against stereotypes. It is a natural convention used by animals to save processing time. However I think at least calling a group passive in hopes they will take action is more productive than saying "fuck islam, they are terrorists"

LOL ... I suspect that particular stereotype is a reaction to the prolonged exposure to the many acts of terrorism caused by Islamic/Muslim extremists.
Passive groups are ... well ... passive! Calling them passive (something they surely already are aware of) is unlikely to motivate them to be something else.
Moderate Muslims are like most humans, they require stimulus applied directly to their personal sphere to react other than they normally will.

[OldMercsRule]

The video may be hard hitting butt: those taped staments were made recently by followers, and have not been disavowed by so called "moderate Muslims" and there are zero examples of similar statements by zealots of other significant faiths in the last 50 years.

99.5% of Muslims are not peaceful, and Islam is not a "religion of peace" and never has been. Please understand a little history of the world in which you live. The word Islam means: submission and some see this submission or silence as a sign that a Muslim is moderate, don't be fooled. You really can not read minds, butt: you can read the source of the primary work relied upon by those who speak out in this video tape.

The Quran is structured in such a way where the most recent revelations, (late in Muhammad's life), take precedence over conflicting verses earlier in the life of the very successful conqueror.

Those Westerners who manage to pick up a translation of the Quran are often left bewildered as to its meaning thanks to ignorance of a critically important principle of Quranic interpretation known as "abrogation." The principle of abrogation -- al-naskh wa al-mansukh (the abrogating and the abrogated) -- directs that verses revealed later in Muhammad's career "abrogate" -- i.e., cancel and replace -- earlier ones whose instructions they may contradict. Thus, passages revealed later in Muhammad's career, in Medina, overrule passages revealed earlier, in Mecca. The Quran itself lays out the principle of abrogation:

2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We {Allah} abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?


All Muslims, (who actually know their own faith), know this to be true, many in the West who have no idea of what they are saying argue "moral equivelance" where none exists, if ya pay attention.

Here is some snippets from the Quran that came late in Mohamed's life and therefore are prime directives to Muslims both fundamentalists (as those speaking out in the video tape), or so called "moderates" who listen and say nothing as they know the fundamentalists on the tape are consistent with doctrine and they are adherants to Islam, (submission).

Go to sleep and pull the covers over your head if you wish, the storm is gathering strength, the populations of western countries are growing older and softer and deeper in debt and the population of Islam is surging.

In contrast, take 9:5, commonly referred to as the "Verse of the Sword", revealed toward the end of Muhammad's life:

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Having been revealed later in Muhammad?s life than 50:45, 109, and 2:256, the Verse of the Sword abrogates their peaceful injunctions in accordance with 2:106. Sura 8, revealed shortly before Sura 9, reveals a similar theme:

8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.
8:67. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9:33. It is He {Allah} Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).


The Quran's commandments to Muslims to wage war in the name of Allah against non-Muslims are unmistakable. They are, furthermore, absolutely authoritative as they were revealed late in the Prophet's career and so cancel and replace earlier instructions to act peaceably. Without knowledge of the principle of abrogation, Westerners will continue to misread the Quran and misdiagnose Islam as a "religion of peace."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam-101.html

Don't worry: be happy, eh????

[pete311]

LOL ... I suspect that particular stereotype is a reaction to the prolonged exposure to the many acts of terrorism caused by Islamic/Muslim extremists.


I think it has more to do with the media and fear of things that are different. If an arab viewed american news papers or local news stations they would easily come to the conclusion that america is a bunch of gangbanging thugs. Obviously we aren't nor are muslims all terrorists.

[darin]

Edited thread title to make it *there* vice *their* :)

[namvet]

thanks to Osama the Muslim world now considers us weak and vulnerable

[CSM]

Truthfully, I suspect that a lot of moderate/passive Muslims would happily embrace a world where Islam was the only religion. I suspect there are a lot of Christians that would feel the same if there were only Christianity to be found across the globe.

[pete311]

Truthfully, I suspect that a lot of moderate/passive Muslims would happily embrace a world where Islam was the only religion. I suspect there are a lot of Christians that would feel the same if there were only Christianity to be found across the globe.

True! I am not thrilled about Islam or any other religion, but I try to separate the person from the religion like I separate the person from the government.

Agreed and is why I despise missionaries. Always disheartening to see when I visit a remote village somewhere that they have a christian church as their main building. So much for respecting and appreciating their unique culture.

[darin]

Truthfully, I suspect that a lot of moderate/passive Muslims would happily embrace a world where Islam was the only religion. I suspect there are a lot of Christians that would feel the same if there were only Christianity to be found across the globe.

ANY Christian would LOVE to see the entire world learn to be Christ-like. Not to control, but to liberate.

Problem is- a LOT of people who claim the faith really have no f'ing clue.

[pete311]

ANY Christian would LOVE to see the entire world learn to be Christ-like. Not to control, but to liberate.

Problem is- a LOT of people who claim the faith really have no f'ing clue.

Standardizing behavior and beliefs using fear tactics is control no matter how big a benevolent shroud they cover it with. Liberation also infers a value judgment from the old to new system. I don't think Christianity is inherently any better than any other religion. There are many great ideas and philosophies in each religion. It's never been about what is interesting or makes sense on a personal level which I think it always should be. Unfortunately people get caught up in the cult. I agree that a large percentage of so called Christians go to church maybe twice a year and almost never open the bible. At least that is not true for Muslims who to their credit often are very educated in their book.

[namvet]

Standardizing behavior and beliefs using fear tactics is control no matter how big a benevolent shroud they cover it with. Liberation also infers a value judgment from the old to new system. I don't think Christianity is inherently any better than any other religion. There are many great ideas and philosophies in each religion. It's never been about what is interesting or makes sense on a personal level which I think it always should be. Unfortunately people get caught up in the cult. I agree that a large percentage of so called Christians go to church maybe twice a year and almost never open the bible. At least that is not true for Muslims who to their credit often are very educated in their book.

except Christians don't wack off heads. or rape their female kin. or kill em. i see a world of diff between them and these god damned fucking incest breed mongolid rat face bastard muslims

[actsnoblemartin]

Their may be people who are good people, but i dont find islam itself to be moderate.


I dunno Martin, you and some other posters here sound just like the guy in the video who proclaims there are no innocent "infidels". I, for one, am not willing to trade one brand of extremism for another. I understand the reaction to videos like this one and have (in the past) defended this country against extremism (i.e, communism) and will continue to do so. Radicals on either side of an issue rarely help resolve anything.

Make no mistake, I am not some pansy liberal or bleeding heart do-gooder. I have little or no compassion for any country or peoples that would do harm to me, mine or my country. I have taken up arms before on that basis and will most certainly do so again.

[actsnoblemartin]

I didnt clarify. Thats what I get for staying up till 3am, and trying to make sense.

I am not seeing proof that islam itself is moderate and peaceful, based on its history and teachings.

That is not to say, there cant be good people involved.

Heck, anyone can say their good or bad, but what does the history say

past behavior, is a good indicator or future behavior

islam historically, and even in the last 30 years, is not behaving itself :poke:


Erm, in the video they only refer to extreme and radical Muslims, and thus have no real connection with your thread title that all Muslims are radicals.

Ofcourse there are moderate Muslims. That is not to say they are not a negitive influence in there on way (like spreading ignorenece of scientific fact, and teaching it's followers to not ask questions.)

So unless you have some proof that every one of the billion or so Muslims on the planet want to blow themselves up then statements like 'no moderate Muslims' is nothing short of the talk of a fool.

(Cue a load of folk assuming i'm defending the Islamic faith and that I love Muslims and hate christians lol. )

[pete311]

except Christians don't wack off heads. or rape their female kin. or kill em. i see a world of diff between them and these god damned fucking incest breed mongolid rat face bastard muslims

I don't see how you think anyone will take you seriously when you write stuff like this. Why do you even bother.



I am not seeing proof that islam itself is moderate and peaceful, based on its history and teachings.

That is not to say, there cant be good people involved.

Heck, anyone can say their good or bad, but what does the history say

past behavior, is a good indicator or future behavior

islam historically, and even in the last 30 years, is not behaving itself :poke:
It's all about headlines man. If you were to visit the moderate muslim countries in the middle east you would be amazed (maybe you have) how peaceful and relatively normal daily life is. I would walk in the darkest of cairo or damascus alleys and often be end up being offered tea in a family's home. That kind of hospiltality does not exist in america.

Do you know that the lord's resistance army in uganda just tied up and butchered 300 children in the name of jesus? Where were the headlines there? Do you know how violent protests can get in buddhist nepal or thailand? Where are the headlines? Two years ago a hindu terrorist group detonated bombs in india and was initially blamed on muslims. Where are the headlines? Focus is on islam because it helps support our wars.

[darin]

Standardizing behavior and beliefs using fear tactics is control no matter how big a benevolent shroud they cover it with. Liberation also infers a value judgment from the old to new system. I don't think Christianity is inherently any better than any other religion. There are many great ideas and philosophies in each religion. It's never been about what is interesting or makes sense on a personal level which I think it always should be. Unfortunately people get caught up in the cult. I agree that a large percentage of so called Christians go to church maybe twice a year and almost never open the bible. At least that is not true for Muslims who to their credit often are very educated in their book.

Uh - Christianity is not about behaviour. It's about fixing the holes in our hearts; re-introducing us to our Maker on a personal level. Christianity is not a religion. Church or bible reading is irrelevant in terms of being a Christian.

[pete311]

Uh - Christianity is not about behaviour. It's about fixing the holes in our hearts; re-introducing us to our Maker on a personal level. Christianity is not a religion. Church or bible reading is irrelevant in terms of being a Christian.

From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity

Christianity (from the Greek word Xριστός, Khristos, "Christ", literally "anointed one") is a monotheistic religion[1] based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as presented in the New Testament.[2]

Christianity's creeds, traditions and lessons all dictate and influence behavior of those who follow it. If you only consider yourself Christian by taking the 5 minute prayer of asking jesus into your heart, and that is it, well that seems pretty pointless to me and I believe most are not that thinly veiled if they want to be taken seriously as a Christian.

[darin]

None of that is Christianity. You're talking about Churchianity. And your last sentence is spot on - that's why the link you showed doesn't talk about what a Christian is.

[pete311]

None of that is Christianity. You're talking about Churchianity. And your last sentence is spot on - that's why the link you showed doesn't talk about what a Christian is.

May I ask where or how you came to know what a Christian is?

[darin]

it's very easy...study Christ...imitate Him. :)

it's not about doing. Anyone who claims somebody has to act or do a certain thing to BE a christian is sorely mistaken. Christians DO those things because they can't help but do them - loving others as much as they love themselves....

[pete311]

it's very easy...study Christ...imitate Him. :)


How do you study him without opening the bible?

[darin]

No idea. But Reading the bible does not cause christianity.

People experience the love of God - from God. in turn, that love OOZES out from their actions.

Churchtians think by DOING they can display love. They have it wrong. First the LOVE happens; and the doing is a natural response.

Thus, I've said it right when I say doing someething has nothing to do with Christianity. BEING a certain way, however, does. In Christ there is NO religion. In christ there is no rule of law. In Christ there is no tradition-as-gospel. Christ has touched millions? without even the aide of a Bible.

[pete311]

BEING a certain way, however, does.

Being a certain way and demanding all others be that same way is control. Jesus wants control. But I digress from this thread as we won't get anywhere with this talk.

[darin]

...but you're wrong. Jesus doesn't demand anything. He simply wants to know his Kids. :) Everything else just happens.

[pete311]

...but you're wrong. Jesus doesn't demand anything. He simply wants to know his Kids. :) Everything else just happens.

“God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16)

“...if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9)

“But there shall by no means enter it (Heaven) anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.” (Rev. 21:27)

He says proactively believe in me and you shall get reward, if not, you are punished. That is a demand and that is control.

[darin]

“God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16)

“...if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9)

“But there shall by no means enter it (Heaven) anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.” (Rev. 21:27)

He says proactively believe in me and you shall get reward, if not, you are punished. That is a demand and that is control.

Hrm...From your perspective i'd be controlling a motorist in a vehicle accident if I said to them "Give me your hand, and I'll pull you from the fire"?

I don't believe in Christ for a reward. I don't follow christ's examples because of control. I do it because I Love him. I love him because He loved me first.

That's not control. That's the gift of freedom - freedom to live w/o concern or worry.

[pete311]

Hrm...From your perspective i'd be controlling a motorist in a vehicle accident if I said to them "Give me your hand, and I'll pull you from the fire"?

It's was a thought provoking analogy, but it's not quite right. I can't equate daily life as burning alive in a wreaked car. I think a better analogy would be if you were a passenger giving directions to the driver. There is a fork in the road. You tell the driver, "if you go right, you will burst into flames, if you left, you will be rewarded with infinite pleasures". The driver has no way of knowing whether to trust you, but the fork is coming up real fast, so of course he picks left. That is fear based decision making.



I don't believe in Christ for a reward. I don't follow christ's examples because of control. I do it because I Love him. I love him because He loved me first.

That's not control. That's the gift of freedom - freedom to live w/o concern or worry.

I would have preferred you say you believe in Jesus because his teachings are wise and morally just. Which is something I agree with btw. But this notion of you loving him because he loved you first? That's on par with a six year old saying he loves his puppy because it licked his face and wagged his tail when they first met.

I think your freedom is a delusion. I hope it is not inhibiting you from living the best life you can here on earth. I know a few who make poor choices or just waste away because they think something better is waiting on the other side anyway.

[OldMercsRule]

I think it has more to do with the media and fear of things that are different.

Nope: reality. :eek:

It is a little "different" to commit suicide in the name of Allah while crashing planes into tall buildings or ones shaped like a pentagon killing thousands of inocent people.

Bombing public places in London, Israel and communter trains in Spain, hotels in Bali, and India ta name just a few of many MANY incidents in the name of Allah...............
Yup a little "different" alrighty. :rolleyes:


If an arab viewed american news papers or local news stations they would easily come to the conclusion that america is a bunch of gangbanging thugs.

The domestic main stream media hates and blames America first. What does that have ta do with the price of beans in Boston? Muslim Arabs hate us because most of us don't accept Islam. Real simple.


Obviously we aren't nor are muslims all terrorists.

No butt the vast majority of terrorists are Muslims, and moral relativity is horse poop. ;)

[OldMercsRule]

True! I am not thrilled about Islam or any other religion,

"Thrilled" is not necessary, butt taking note of obvious correlations can help a society under attack survive attacks.


but I try to separate the person from the religion like I separate the person from the government.

Maybe you have the time to sort out which of the 1.5 Billion Muslim belivers are consistent with the extremely violent history of their religion, and which are peaceful.

Most poeple do not and have that kind of time and must instead rely on a vision and knowledge of history, and contemporary actions of members of this very violent faith.


Agreed and is why I despise missionaries.

What do you have against missionaries? Ya think all of them are still like Cortez? Some of the great world religions have modernized. (NOT ISLAM).


Always disheartening to see when I visit a remote village somewhere that they have a christian church as their main building.

Yup I can see where ya seem ta hate Christianity.


So much for respecting and appreciating their unique culture.

Is that required in your particular religion?

[pete311]

It is a little "different" to commit suicide in the name of Allah while crashing planes into tall buildings or ones shaped like a pentagon killing thousands of inocent people.

Bombing public places in London, Israel and communter trains in Spain, hotels in Bali, and India ta name just a few of many MANY incidents in the name of Allah...............

That was the work of what, maybe 50 terrorists? I will show you millions of peaceful muslims. Terrorists misinterpret islam in order to recruit new members. They are not even truely muslim. Most of their actions are political.




Muslim Arabs hate us because most of us don't accept Islam. Real simple.

Muslim arabs do not hate us. I have visited five muslim middle east countries, always saying I was american and only got great hospitality and welcomes.




No butt the vast majority of terrorists are Muslims, and moral relativity is horse poop. ;)
This is a misconception that is reinforced by the media. There are plenty of Hindu, Sikh, Maoist, Christian terrorist groups. In fact most are political or military in nature. Of the top 30 or so groups only 5 or so use islam as a basis for their activity.

[OldMercsRule]

I don't see how you think anyone will take you seriously when you write stuff like this. Why do you even bother.


It's all about headlines man.


Yup headlines. Nearly 3000 killed on 9-11 that is a headline for ya :rolleyes:.


If you were to visit the moderate muslim countries in the middle east you would be amazed (maybe you have) how peaceful and relatively normal daily life is.

Yasureyabetcha. Attend a wedding in Jordan, (a Muslim one BTW), and get killed by a suicide bombing by a Muslim in the name of Allah. Hang out by a Western embassy after a cartoon about Muhammad in Holland and get fire bombed by those friendly Muslims. They sure are peaceful alrighty. Sip a cocktal in Bali and boooooooom. Those peaceful Muslims sure are fun ta party with aren't they? :rolleyes:


I would walk in the darkest of cairo or damascus alleys and often be end up being offered tea in a family's home. That kind of hospiltality does not exist in america.

Yup everybody is just great in Cairo and Damascus and all Americans are mean and terrible and desserve to be blown up.


Do you know that the lord's resistance army in uganda just tied up and butchered 300 children in the name of jesus?

In the name of Jesus? Do you have proof if this statement?


Where were the headlines there?

How would you know if there were no headlines?


Do you know how violent protests can get in buddhist nepal or thailand? Where are the headlines?

Suicide bombers? Chopped off heads? Please share the details of how bad those terrible Buddhists are.


Two years ago a hindu terrorist group detonated bombs in india and was initially blamed on muslims. Where are the headlines?

Proof?


Focus is on islam because it helps support our wars.

No. Islam is the most violent religion on this particular planet over the last 100 years NOT EVEN CLOSE IF YA HAVE ONE FUNCTIONAL BRAIN CELL.

Moral relatively is horse poop.

[pete311]

[COLOR="blue"]Maybe you have the time to sort out which of the 1.5 Billion Muslim belivers are consistent with the extremely violent history of their religion, and which are peaceful.

Most poeple do not and have that kind of time and must instead rely on a vision and knowledge of history, and contemporary actions of members of this very violent faith.
You are far more likely to die from some local gang banger than from a terrorist. Do you not swim in the ocean because there are a few sharks? No, you recognize most are harmless fish and jump in without drama.

Judeo-Christian history and the bible are filled with violence, don't even try to pull that on me.



Is that required in your particular religion?

No but it would be nice to have a diverse world. Maybe everyone should only wear white shirts too.

[darin]

It's was a thought provoking analogy, but it's not quite right. I can't equate daily life as burning alive in a wreaked car. I think a better analogy would be if you were a passenger giving directions to the driver. There is a fork in the road. You tell the driver, "if you go right, you will burst into flames, if you left, you will be rewarded with infinite pleasures". The driver has no way of knowing whether to trust you, but the fork is coming up real fast, so of course he picks left. That is fear based decision making.



What you're doing is being argumentative. You don't want to understand - you want to disagree because you might think it makes you seem smarter, OR...you just, perhaps, enjoy bickering :)



I would have preferred you say you believe in Jesus because his teachings are wise and morally just. Which is something I agree with btw. But this notion of you loving him because he loved you first? That's on par with a six year old saying he loves his puppy because it licked his face and wagged his tail when they first met.

I think your freedom is a delusion. I hope it is not inhibiting you from living the best life you can here on earth. I know a few who make poor choices or just waste away because they think something better is waiting on the other side anyway.

That's sort of like you saying "I hope those vitamins and minerals you enjoy aren't making you sick". You're throwing out stuff now just for the sake of doing it. It's beyond silly.

[HogTrash]

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OPI3KlDs8pA&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OPI3KlDs8pA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>The total eradication of Islam may be the only solution.

[namvet]

The total eradication of Islam may be the only solution.

I see NO contribution by this race to humanity or science or the arts. only death and destruction. i have to agree

[pete311]

What you're doing is being argumentative. You don't want to understand - you want to disagree because you might think it makes you seem smarter, OR...you just, perhaps, enjoy bickering :)

That's sort of like you saying "I hope those vitamins and minerals you enjoy aren't making you sick". You're throwing out stuff now just for the sake of doing it. It's beyond silly.

Your statement is that you love jesus because he loved you first. And suddenly I am the silly one? I am trying to understand, but with statements like that, how in the world can I understand?

[pete311]

I see NO contribution by this race to humanity or science or the arts. i have to agree

this is the best idea you can come up with? yeah, let's pick a path that has a ZERO percent chance of happening. In fact the way muslims are breeding and move around we are the one who might be wiped out in a hundred years. It's been stated that europe is in big trouble. In a few decades it's predicted that england will have enough muslims to affect policy. so yeah, let's wipe them out... unbelievable, and you think obama is crazy. wow

btw, I haven't forgotten about you OMR

[namvet]

this is the best idea you can come up with? yeah, let's pick a path that has a ZERO percent chance of happening. In fact the way muslims are breeding and move around we are the one who might be wiped out in a hundred years. It's been stated that europe is in big trouble. In a few decades it's predicted that england will have enough muslims to affect policy. so yeah, let's wipe them out... unbelievable, and you think obama is crazy. wow

btw, I haven't forgotten about you OMR

you said it not me


PN62a683ibw

gotta be your first day on the planet

[pete311]

Yup headlines. Nearly 3000 killed on 9-11 that is a headline for ya :rolleyes:.

You don't get it. It doesn't matter how many they kill. It's how many are the killers. Those 3000 were killed by only 7-8 guys. You can't damn millions over 7-8 guys. If tomorrow a self proclaimed christian detonated a dirty bomb in NYC you wouldn't suddenly think Christianity was an inherently deadly religion.



Yasureyabetcha. Attend a wedding in Jordan, (a Muslim one BTW), and get killed by a suicide bombing by a Muslim in the name of Allah. Hang out by a Western embassy after a cartoon about Muhammad in Holland and get fire bombed by those friendly Muslims. They sure are peaceful alrighty. Sip a cocktal in Bali and boooooooom. Those peaceful Muslims sure are fun ta party with aren't they?


Again the work of a handful of disturbed human beings over the past 5-6 years. You are much more likely to get mugged and shot walking from a bar at night in your home town.



In the name of Jesus? Do you have proof if this statement?
It's in their wiki profile that they fight in the name of god.



How would you know if there were no headlines?

Oh I'm sure there were, for a few minutes.



Suicide bombers? Chopped off heads? Please share the details of how bad those terrible Buddhists are.

You better believe people are beheaded by terrorists in southeast asia. Also the only terrorist group to ever use chemical weapons was a Buddhist group in japan.



Proof?

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/india-uncovers-hindu-terror-group-that-carried-out-bombings-blamed-on-islamists-14076306.html



No. Islam is the most violent religion on this particular planet over the last 100 years NOT EVEN CLOSE IF YA HAVE ONE FUNCTIONAL BRAIN CELL.


There are terrorist groups that are islamic, but again the bible and christian history are just as violent.

[HogTrash]

this is the best idea you can come up with? yeah, let's pick a path that has a ZERO percent chance of happening. In fact the way muslims are breeding and move around we are the one who might be wiped out in a hundred years. It's been stated that europe is in big trouble. In a few decades it's predicted that england will have enough muslims to affect policy. so yeah, let's wipe them out... unbelievable, and you think obama is crazy. wow

btw, I haven't forgotten about you OMRAll things are possible if we elect leaders who use common sense instead of political correctness to govern.

But as long as we allow liberals to influence our politics and policies, very few problems will ever get solved.

[OldMercsRule]

Originally Posted by OldMercsRule
It is a little "different" to commit suicide in the name of Allah while crashing planes into tall buildings or ones shaped like a pentagon killing thousands of inocent people.

Bombing public places in London, Israel and communter trains in Spain, hotels in Bali, and India ta name just a few of many MANY incidents in the name of Allah...............


That was the work of what, maybe 50 terrorists?

Yup quite some "work" eh? :rolleyes: Quess that didn't impress you soo much eh? :rolleyes:


I will show you millions of peaceful muslims.

Hmmmmmmm I guess ya think yer the New York Times or some such. Yer not showing me anything butt moral relativism and huge kool aid cornsumption.


Terrorists misinterpret islam in order to recruit new members.

Ya don't like religion, especially Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism, butt yer some sorta expert on Islam yer sayin'???? Yasureyabetcha.


They are not even truely muslim.

How you you have the first clue of what it takes to be "TRUELY MUSLIM"???? :rolleyes:


Most of their actions are political.

So I guess yer sayin' Islam is not political? Some expert on Islam.......... :rolleyes:



Originally Posted by OldMercsRule
Muslim Arabs hate us because most of us don't accept Islam. Real simple.


Muslim arabs do not hate us.

OH????? Ya think they luv us non believers eh??? You don't have a clue.


I have visited five muslim middle east countries, always saying I was american and only got great hospitality and welcomes.

Proves nothing.



Originally Posted by OldMercsRule
No butt the vast majority of terrorists are Muslims, and moral relativity is horse poop.


This is a misconception that is reinforced by the media.

And only the truely enlightened (as you a legend in yer own mind I'm guessin') know the real truth yer sayin'??? :rolleyes:



There are plenty of Hindu, Sikh, Maoist, Christian terrorist groups.

Name some and be sure to mention all those heads chopped off n' planes crashed into buildings, and hotels blown up, n' trains n' such. I can't wait.


In fact most are political or military in nature.

Name names, don't just make chit up.


Of the top 30 or so groups only 5 or so use islam as a basis for their activity.

Name these real skeery "top 30 groups" of nasty Christians Hindus, Buddhasts n' such I'm gettin' skeeeeeeeeered.:eek:

[pete311]

All things are possible if we elect leaders who use common sense instead of political correctness to govern.

But as long as we allow liberals to influence our politics and policies, very few problems will ever get solved.

You try and eradicate islam and you start a world war that lasts 300 years. We can't even win Iraq in a decade. You tell me which politician supports your view. McCain? Find me anyone, hell, show me a mayor, show me an alderman. It is not realistic so stop wasting your brain cells on it.

[OldMercsRule]

Judeo-Christian history and the bible are filled with violence, don't even try to pull that on me.

You may have been asleep when Christianity reformed.

Islam never did.

I want to see that top 30 list of terrorist groups you were talking about that are mostly non Muslim.

[HogTrash]

This woman is being legally beaten in plain view, on a public street by a man who may or may not be her husband.

These are not terrorists...This is a normal everyday occurance by average everday muslims, in any given muslim nation.

[pete311]

This woman is being legally beaten in plain view, on a public street by a man who may or may not be her husband.

These are not terrorists...This is a normal everyday occurance by average everday muslims, in any given muslim nation.

Hog, they certainty have some big problems, but for every photo you show me, I can show you some fucked up shit that happens on our soil.

[HogTrash]

Originally Posted by pete311
Judeo-Christian history and the bible are filled with violence, don't even try to pull that on me.We're not talking about history...This is about current events.

All humans have had a savage history, regardless of their relgion.

Most of the world has managed to civilize themselves with the exception of the Nation Of Islam.

Haven't you been keeping up with current events or do you get all your information from the PC Daily News?

[HogTrash]

Hog, they certainty have some big problems, but for every photo you show me, I can show you some fucked up shit that happens on our soil.Show me something happening on American soil that compares to this savagery?

[OldMercsRule]

Originally Posted by OldMercsRule
Yup headlines. Nearly 3000 killed on 9-11 that is a headline for ya .


You don't get it. It doesn't matter how many they kill. It's how many are the killers. Those 3000 were killed by only 7-8 guys. You can't damn millions over 7-8 guys. If tomorrow a self proclaimed christian detonated a dirty bomb in NYC you wouldn't suddenly think Christianity was an inherently deadly religion.

So I guess efficiency in killing impresses ya then? The first surprize shot is always easy when we are nappin'. :mad: I bet ya liked the dancing in the streets all over that peacful Muslim world after 9-11 as well. :mad: Ya really like the burning of cars in France too?? Some "religion of peace" yer defending here. :mad:

As far as I'm corncerned a celibrated mass murder is a reason to condem a faith based act that was followed repeatedly in London, Madrid, Indonesia and India ta name just a few attacks. I didn't care for the Marine barracks in Lebanon either, the first attempt to bring down the WTC, the bombing of the USS Cole or the US embassy in Kenya. This is not islolated acts of crazies as your moral relativism argument puts forth. It is war against the "Great satan" as kick started in 1979 in Iran.

Read the Quran that I cited in my first post on this thread. Listen to the video that started this thread. These faith based acts of Muslim believers directed by the Quran have been going on since Muhammad used his sword to sort out non believers as Islam filled the void after the fall of Rome.


Originally Posted by OldMercsRule
Yasureyabetcha. Attend a wedding in Jordan, (a Muslim one BTW), and get killed by a suicide bombing by a Muslim in the name of Allah. Hang out by a Western embassy after a cartoon about Muhammad in Holland and get fire bombed by those friendly Muslims. They sure are peaceful alrighty. Sip a cocktal in Bali and boooooooom. Those peaceful Muslims sure are fun ta party with aren't they?


Again the work of a handful of disturbed human beings over the past 5-6 years. You are much more likely to get mugged and shot walking from a bar at night in your home town.

The "disturbed" Islamo facists are following a 1500 year old game plan as spelled out in the Quran and the terror acts are world wide.

You are just one of those blame and hate America relative moralists that trash and smear Christians and Buddhists without any facts, and support Islam. :mad:



Originally Posted by OldMercsRule
In the name of Jesus? Do you have proof if this statement?


It's in their wiki profile that they fight in the name of god.

Just like I thought: you don't have any facts just hate. Wiki can be modified by any Christian hating wacko.


Originally Posted by OldMercsRule
How would you know if there were no headlines?


Oh I'm sure there were, for a few minutes.

OH so yer just makin' chit up then????? Let's see proof of your claim.



Originally Posted by OldMercsRule
Suicide bombers? Chopped off heads? Please share the details of how bad those terrible Buddhists are.


You better believe people are beheaded by terrorists in southeast asia. Also the only terrorist group to ever use chemical weapons was a Buddhist group in japan.

Let's see your facts to back up your anti Buddhist, and Christian claims please.



Originally Posted by OldMercsRuleNo. Islam is the most violent religion on this particular planet over the last 100 years NOT EVEN CLOSE IF YA HAVE ONE FUNCTIONAL BRAIN CELL.



There are terrorist groups that are islamic, but again the bible and christian history are just as violent.

Let's stick to events from the last 100 years as Christianity modernized after Luthur and Gutenberg. Islam is stuck in the sixth century.

[pete311]

Show me something happening on American soil that compares to this savagery?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/27/california.gang.rape.investigation/index.html

[pete311]

OMR you simply cherry pick verses from the Qur'an. I can find plenty of bullshit in the bible too.

Moses and the people sing praises to their murderous god. 15:1-19

Any person or animal that touches Mt. Sinai shall be stoned to death or "shot through." 19:12-13

A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15,17

If an ox gores someone, then both the ox and its owner must die. 21:28-29

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. 22:18

Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. 22:19

Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14

[HogTrash]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/27/california.gang.rape.investigation/index.htmlI ask you for something comparable to the savagery of Islam and you post a news report of a crime???

The whole point is that women being beaten tortured and murdered is not a crime, in the nations of Islam.

You just don't get it...Try using your common sense instead of political correctness...This ain't rocket science, einstein.

Originally Posted by pete311
Hog, they certainty have some big problems,Is this :lol: the understatement of the decade?...Give me a break!

Political Correctness has robbed you of your reasoning and ability to think for yourself.

[crin63]

As far as I'm concerned the only moderate muslims are the ones who have not yet taken their religion totally serious or are not yet the majority where they live.

I learned recently that muslims chain their retarded or deformed children to trees or other immovable objects in Mali and leave them there to die. I guess that is at least in some measure better than the western countries who just kill babies in the womb because they can.

[OldMercsRule]

OMR you simply cherry pick verses from the Qur'an. I can find plenty of bullshit in the bible too.

Islam has never modernized. The sixth century mindset is exactly what Islamo Facists follow and the latest most militant communications of Muhammad in the Quran that superceed earlier passages are exactly what they quote in videos, (as the one that started this thread).

Robert Spencer and Danial Pipes have studied Islam and explained the Islamo Faciist mindset that is adhered to by a lot of people who have become capable enemies of modern civilization.

Bernard Lewis opines that fundamental sixth century Islam is followed and practiced by as much as 10% of the 1.5 Billion Muslims and that is why it is a such big problem.

Modern Christians and Jews don't folllow 2000 to 4000 year old scripture to commit atrocities in the name of Christ (or God, Christ = God), contrary to your moral equivelance arguments that are false.


Moses and the people sing praises to their murderous god. 15:1-19

Any person or animal that touches Mt. Sinai shall be stoned to death or "shot through." 19:12-13

A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15,17

If an ox gores someone, then both the ox and its owner must die. 21:28-29

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. 22:18

Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. 22:19

Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14

I'm not gonna debate old testament, (or new). Luthur modernized Christianaty which involved blood and time. Islam is stuck in the sicth century.

[HogTrash]

As far as I'm concerned the only moderate muslims are the ones who have not yet taken their religion totally serious or are not yet the majority where they live.

I learned recently that muslims chain their retarded or deformed children to trees or other immovable objects in Mali and leave them there to die. I guess that is at least in some measure better than the western countries who just kill babies in the womb because they can.I concede that abortion is an example of American savagery, but just like Islamic atrocities, the liberals defend it.

[HogTrash]

Pete311 dissappeared like a beer fart in a hurricane.

It must be a crushing blow when a liberal discovers that there are people whose belief system is based on common sense instead of political correctness.

[crin63]

I concede that abortion is an example of American savagery, but just like Islamic atrocities, the liberals defend it.

Yes they do and yet they call us blood thirsty and warmongers.

[pete311]

Pete311 dissappeared like a beer fart in a hurricane.


Sorry I can't be glued to the forums 24/7.

[OldMercsRule]

Sorry I can't be glued to the forums 24/7.

Neither can most of us.

That said: you do play hit and run, by making frequent unsupportable fast and loose statements, (that are horse poop), and then becoming a "beer fart in a hurricane" (lol), as ol' Hogt says... :rolleyes:

Thanks Hog: I spit coffee all over me keyboard with that one. :D

[HogTrash]

Sorry I can't be glued to the forums 24/7.Well then when you do drop in, how about explaining some of the issues that you have given some pretty dumb explanations to.

Look over my last few posts in this thread and try to give some rational answers for your rediculous statements that I have questioned please?

[HogTrash]

Sorry I can't be glued to the forums 24/7.I graciously accept your surrender.