Two simple questions on morality

[Noir]

I have heard hitchens ask these a few times, and they have really got me thinkig, so I shall share and ask you guys.

1) Name a moral action/thought that can be done/thought by a religious person because of their religion that could not be done/thought by an atheist.

2) Name an immoral action/thought that can be done/thought by a religious person in the name of their religion, that could not be done/thought by an atheist.

Personally I can think of allot of answers for two, but not one. Your thoughts?

[SassyLady]

I have heard hitchens ask these a few times, and they have really got me thinkig, so I shall share and ask you guys.

1) Name a moral action/thought that can be done/thought by a religious person because of their religion that could not be done/thought by an atheist.

2) Name an immoral action/thought that can be done/thought by a religious person in the name of their religion, that could not be done/thought by an atheist.

Personally I can think of allot of answers for two, but not one. Your thoughts?

Define moral/immoral.

[chloe]

I have heard hitchens ask these a few times, and they have really got me thinkig, so I shall share and ask you guys.

1) Name a moral action/thought that can be done/thought by a religious person because of their religion that could not be done/thought by an atheist.

2) Name an immoral action/thought that can be done/thought by a religious person in the name of their religion, that could not be done/thought by an atheist.

Personally I can think of allot of answers for two, but not one. Your thoughts?

so share your answers

[Noir]

Define moral/immoral.

Moral and immoral are whatever you judge them to be.
It is then up for others to look upon what you judge immoral and moral to see if they agree with your answer to the question.

[Mr. P]

I have heard kitchens ask these a few times, and they have really got me thinkig, so I shall share and ask you guys.

1) Name a moral action/thought that can be done/thought by a religious person because of their religion that could not be done/thought by an atheist.

2) Name an immoral action/thought that can be done/thought by a religious person in the name of their religion, that could not be done/thought by an atheist.

Personally I can think of allot of answers for two, but not one. Your thoughts?

First I'd ask Hitchens: Which religion?

[Noir]

so share your answers

Sure, two quick examples;

The 9/11 attackers. They did what they did because of their religon, they turly believed they were going to a paradise for what they did, in killing themselves and murdering innocent people. They believed what they were doing was right because of religion. An atheist has no 'higher power' to commit murder for, like happened on 9/11.

and as it was brought up in another topic earlyer tonight, a religous person can teach that having unprotected sex even when the risk of getting AIDs is high, is better than using a condom. They believe that it is right to teAch this because of their religion. I can not think why an atheist would try and stop people using condoms in the belief that it is better they risk AIDs than use protection.

Personally I judge both of the above cases to be immoral, yet both have been carried out in the name of religion. Whether you find them immoral or not is up to you.

[Noir]

First I'd ask Hitchens: Which religion?

I do believe it is posed to all religions who claim that without their God you could not have a moral soceity.

[SassyLady]

1) Name a moral action/thought that can be done/thought by a religious person because of their religion that could not be done/thought by an atheist.

2) Name an immoral action/thought that can be done/thought by a religious person in the name of their religion, that could not be done/thought by an atheist


Moral and immoral are whatever you judge them to be.
It is then up for others to look upon what you judge immoral and moral to see if they agree with your answer to the question.

OK - if the moral and immoral are up to me then:

1. Giving gratitude to God is moral and this is what religious people do and what an atheist wouldn't do.

2. It is immoral to insist that the Pledge of Allegiance be removed from public schools (ooops this was done by an atheist).

[Mr. P]

I do believe it is posed to all religions who claim that without their God you could not have a moral soceity.

I figured that..so then I'd ask what is the moral basis for the atheist.
He would probably respond with: Atheist have the natural awareness of right and wrong. Which is true but in comparison with a religious belief I think it's comparing apples an oranges, and I wouldn't waste my time on his impossible question.. Just my 2 cents.

[Noir]

OK - if the moral and immoral are up to me then:

1. Giving gratitude to God is moral and this is what religious people do and what an atheist wouldn't do.

2. It is immoral to insist that the Pledge of Allegiance be removed from public schools (ooops this was done by an atheist).

1- When you say god, do you mean your god, or any god?

2- I am unfamiliar with the pledge of allegiance and what exactly is in it, however, do you think it impossible that a religious person (either of your religion or another) would want it removed?

[SassyLady]

1- When you say god, do you mean your god, or any god?

2- I am unfamiliar with the pledge of allegiance and what exactly is in it, however, do you think it impossible that a religious person (either of your religion or another) would want it removed?

1. You asked about religious - so I would imagine any god.
2. You asked if I thought it was immoral - not impossible.

[Noir]

1. You asked about religious - so I would imagine any god.
2. You asked if I thought it was immoral - not impossible.

1. Okay, so as for the 9/11 bombers, if the believed they were doing their gods will, and thus giving gratitude to their God, does that make what they did moral?

2. But you are saying that this immoral action (in your view) which has been requested by an atheist could not be requested by a religious person?

[SassyLady]

1. Okay, so as for the 9/11 bombers, if the believed they were doing their gods will, and thus giving gratitude to their God, does that make what they did moral?

2. But you are saying that this immoral action (in your view) which has been requested by an atheist could not be requested by a religious person?

Once again, Noir, I asked you to define moral and immoral. You said it would be whatever I determined. And then you asked me to pose two incidents of moral and immoral, which I did. I told you it was moral to give thanks and gratitude to God which is something an atheist would never do. I also said it was immoral to ask that the Pledge of Allegiance be removed from our schools, of which an atheist has done.

Now, to answer your second set of questions posed above:

1. Giving thanks and gratitude by killing someone or something to show that gratitude is not moral, for either religion or atheism.

2. I doubt a religious person would ask that the Pledge of Allegiance be removed from public schools, but if they have, then yes, I believe it to be immoral (definition of immoral - not conforming to the patterns of conduct usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics).

[DragonStryk72]

I have heard hitchens ask these a few times, and they have really got me thinkig, so I shall share and ask you guys.

1) Name a moral action/thought that can be done/thought by a religious person because of their religion that could not be done/thought by an atheist.

2) Name an immoral action/thought that can be done/thought by a religious person in the name of their religion, that could not be done/thought by an atheist.

Personally I can think of allot of answers for two, but not one. Your thoughts?

absolutely none either way. Anyone can think or do anything, moral or immoral, it is only their own conscience that halts them. Back to the religious obsession, I see.

[revelarts]

Moral and immoral are whatever you judge them to be.
It is then up for others to look upon what you judge immoral and moral to see if they agree with your answer to the question.

By this definition Honor killings in the right neighborhood would be fine. because it was sanctioned by the community. and so would lynching in the American south that weren't motivated by "religion" per say but by generations of prejudice. Have you ever seen pictures of folks standing around a dead mans body smiling and satisfied.

Your definition is pretty poor, imo.
You've mentioned do unto others in other threads, that's better but alone it not quite enough either.

But to answer your 2nd question in the context of our shared western Christian but watered down morals.


2) Name an immoral action/thought that can be done/thought by a religious person in the name of their religion, that could not be done/thought by an atheist.

it's a dodgy debaters question in that, at a glance, you can come to the wrong conclusion.

The kind of religion does mater, as mentioned before. Many cultures taught that there human rulers were gods and so they had authority over life, death, sex etc. and if they where perverse ,so be it. Darker forms of Satanism or Witchcraft can kill or harm for any number of reasons including rituals. But Christianity and many other religion reject that crap outright.

So a broad brush "religion" is not really fair. though it does have merit as a definition. In this question however, in theory, religions could promote any action man could ever conceive bad or GOOD. it's like asking is there nothing that a capitalist probably wouldn't try to sell? That's what capitalist do. Religions promote ideas, ideas promote actions - good and bad. The question is rigged to look for the bad side of the answer concerning every religion, everywhere, anytime.

In the short hand version of Atheism people don't think of morals motivations at all.
Atheism, I've been told, doesn't promote a morality. it's only non theistic. (that one definition I've been given). So it's not really in the same class as most religions for the purpose of the question.

HOWEVER the question is can a non theist think or do all the same bad things any theist might. Since Atheist don't PROMOTE any morals. They conceivably could think of any evil actions as well as a theist. What's stopping them? There are ZERO moral cues in atheism per se. So anything goes.
Ever hear of Nihilistic atheist, sadistic atheist, masochistic atheist. There's more than one motivation to flying into a buildings. Hate to bring up Mao again but great evil was done there for atheistic political reasons.

While the base motivations of a devout religionist and committed atheist may have them doing things for different reasons, they both could conceivably end up doing all same evil actions.

[PostmodernProphet]

1- When you say god, do you mean your god, or any god?

what difference does it make.....you asked what an atheist would not do.....they don't believe in any god....

[bullypulpit]

Moral and immoral are whatever you judge them to be.
It is then up for others to look upon what you judge immoral and moral to see if they agree with your answer to the question.

No, Noir...that is the essence of moral relativism. The morality or immorality of actions are determined by their consequences on the lives of those affected in this life...in this world.