On Rationing and then Death

[Mr. P]

We don't even have Obamacare yet.

So, I hear this guy call a radio show tonight. He has severe lung damage and is on GOVERNMENT health care, Medicare or Medicaid, he didn't say. Two of his doctors say he needs Oxygen.. 24/7.

The Government says NO he doesn't meet THEIR criteria and will not pay for it. There ya go..rationing and ultimately a Death.

I've seen two clients pass away while we fought the government for their social security disability benefits. These people died fighting the government for the benefits they paid for FOLKS!

Now one of you left wing-nuts step up and tell us how great Obamacare will be!

[chloe]

Before he ever got elected I could tell he was into population reductiojn through healthcare. I remember at a town meeting an elderly lady telling him how she needed a heart or some pacemaker something like that and she was in her 80's he kept cutting her off with his gloomy speech that impressed upon me he can't stand old people, then when she said she was better then ever sinc ethe surgery he had a glib reply and swept her aside. I think he wants women to have abortions and old people to die.:eek:

[cat slave]

Dont doubt it for a second.

That human looking beast is evil to the core. Ive never
seen anyone so arrogant or with such empty eyes. Theres
no soul there therefore no conscience.

[Kathianne]

Before he ever got elected I could tell he was into population reductiojn through healthcare. I remember at a town meeting an elderly lady telling him how she needed a heart or some pacemaker something like that and she was in her 80's he kept cutting her off with his gloomy speech that impressed upon me he can't stand old people, then when she said she was better then ever sinc ethe surgery he had a glib reply and swept her aside. I think he wants women to have abortions and old people to die.:eek:

Indeed. Remember his grandmother!

[Noir]

I think he wants women to have abortions and old people to die.:eek:

Those are some pretty horrid claims.
I know most of you guys don't like his politics or his person. But I think that claims lime this are quite unnessessary.

[red states rule]

Those are some pretty horrid claims.
I know most of you guys don't like his politics or his person. But I think that claims lime this are quite unnessessary.

How else will Obama and Dems add 30 MILLION people to a government program and SAVE money?

Nobody is buying his claims Noir. It only takes a small amount of common sense to undestand care wil be rationed, the sick will not get treatment, and it will all be in the name of cost management

Obama's own advisors have said so

[Mr. P]

Indeed. Remember his grandmother!

Remember hearing him say "Perhaps you DON'T need the medication, maybe just an aspirin will do." ?

[Noir]

How else will Obama and Dems add 30 MILLION people to a government program and SAVE money?

Nobody is buying his claims Noir. It only takes a small amount of common sense to undestand care wil be rationed, the sick will not get treatment, and it will all be in the name of cost management

Obama's own advisors have said so


He or future goverments will have to raise taxes.

I do however stand by the claim that saying he wants people dead is wrong IMO.

[red states rule]

He or future goverments will have to raise taxes.

I do however stand by the claim that saying he wants people dead is wrong IMO.

Yea, tax increases. Now that will help the economy :laugh2:

Yea, Dems are pissed off as several corporations are taking hundreds of BILLIONS in charges due to increased costs - not to mention how much it will cost in jobs when the BIGGEST TAX INCREASE IN US HISTORY kicks in that is in Obamacare


Dems have admitted the government will make life and death decisions



Let’s back up for a minute. I noted some time ago Jay Rockefeller went on record to say that at some point the government has to decide whether or not you are allowed to receive any more medical benefits if the cost outweighs the potential benefits.

As Mickey Kaus has noted, both Ezra Klein and Matt Yglesias are on record agreeing. Kaus writes:

Democratic blogger Ezra Klein appears to be positioning Dem health care reforms as a way to cut costs, on the grounds that a reformed system will be able to make “hard choices” and “rational” coverage decisions, by which Klein seems to mean “not providing” treatments that are unproven or too expensive–when “a person’s life, or health, is not worth the price.” Matthew Yglesias’ recent post seems to be saying the same thing, though clarity isn’t its strong suit.

http://www.redstate.com/erick/2009/07/20/democrats-want-to-teach-you-to-die-with-dignity/




Allow me to let Obama himself set the record straight

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[Noir]

Yea, tax increases. Now that will help the economy :laugh2:

At what point did I mention anything about the economy?
My post was not on the policy or the politics. Just on the claim he wants people dead.

[red states rule]

At what point did I mention anything about the economy?
My post was not on the policy or the politics. Just on the claim he wants people dead.

Gee Noir, tax increases will HARM the economy and generate LESS revenue. Since the government will be running massive deficits, a slower economy will only add to that deficit

No comment on the rest of my post huh?

[Noir]

Gee Noir, tax increases will HARM the economy and generate LESS revenue. Since the government will be running massive deficits, a slower economy will only add to that deficit

No comment on the rest of my post huh?


I know it will.

But that is not why I posted in this thread, I only posted to note the phrase that chloe used.

[red states rule]

I know it will.

But that is not why I posted in this thread, I only posted to note the phrase that chloe used.

You said the government (meaning Obama) wil have to raisre taxes. Tell me Noir - bieng a liberal and all - at what point is someone paying their fair share?

50% of their income? 60%?

So knowing tax increases will harm the economy - you still want taxes to go up? Wouldn't that hurt the "little guy" you liberals claim to support?

Also, here is Obama's medical czar on Obamcare




In numerous writings, Dr. Emanuel chastises physicians for thinking only about their own patient's needs. He describes it as an intractable problem: "Patients were to receive whatever services they needed, regardless of its cost. Reasoning based on cost has been strenuously resisted; it violated the Hippocratic Oath, was associated with rationing, and derided as putting a price on life. . . . Indeed, many physicians were willing to lie to get patients what they needed from insurance companies that were trying to hold down costs." (JAMA, May 16, 2007).

Of course, patients hope their doctors will have that single-minded devotion. But Dr. Emanuel believes doctors should serve two masters, the patient and society, and that medical students should be trained "to provide socially sustainable, cost-effective care." One sign of progress he sees: "the progression in end-of-life care mentality from 'do everything' to more palliative care shows that change in physician norms and practices is possible." (JAMA, June 18, 2008).

"In the next decade every country will face very hard choices about how to allocate scarce medical resources. There is no consensus about what substantive principles should be used to establish priorities for allocations," he wrote in the New England Journal of Medicine, Sept. 19, 2002. Yet Dr. Emanuel writes at length about who should set the rules, who should get care, and who should be at the back of the line.

"You can't avoid these questions," Dr. Emanuel said in an Aug. 16 Washington Post interview. "We had a big controversy in the United States when there was a limited number of dialysis machines. In Seattle, they appointed what they called a 'God committee' to choose who should get it, and that committee was eventually abandoned. Society ended up paying the whole bill for dialysis instead of having people make those decisions."

Dr. Emanuel argues that to make such decisions, the focus cannot be only on the worth of the individual. He proposes adding the communitarian perspective to ensure that medical resources will be allocated in a way that keeps society going: "Substantively, it suggests services that promote the continuation of the polity—those that ensure healthy future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens in public deliberations—are to be socially guaranteed as basic. Covering services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic, and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia." (Hastings Center Report, November-December, 1996)

In the Lancet, Jan. 31, 2009, Dr. Emanuel and co-authors presented a "complete lives system" for the allocation of very scarce resources, such as kidneys, vaccines, dialysis machines, intensive care beds, and others. "One maximizing strategy involves saving the most individual lives, and it has motivated policies on allocation of influenza vaccines and responses to bioterrorism. . . . Other things being equal, we should always save five lives rather than one.

"However, other things are rarely equal—whether to save one 20-year-old, who might live another 60 years, if saved, or three 70-year-olds, who could only live for another 10 years each—is unclear." In fact, Dr. Emanuel makes a clear choice: "When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get changes that are attenuated (see Dr. Emanuel's chart nearby).

http://www.lifenews.com/bio2941.html

[Noir]

You said the government (meaning Obama) wil have to raisre taxes. Tell me Noir - bieng a liberal and all - at what point is someone paying their fair share?

50% of their income? 60%?

So knowing tax increases will harm the economy - you still want taxes to go up? Wouldn't that hurt the "little guy" you liberals claim to support?

Also, here is Obama's medical czar on Obamcare

I don't know what a 'fair share' level is.

Where have I said I want taxes to go up?

[red states rule]

I don't know what a 'fair share' level is.

Where have I said I want taxes to go up?

Noir, you are running aorund in circles. Fisrt you say how taxes need to go up, you ignore all the examples of government officials admitting they will will make life and death decisions, then you duck direct questions on how much people should pay

It is obvious, like the liberals here in the US, you can't defend your positions - or debate how Obamacare will ration care, and what it will cost America in money, lost jobs, and lost lives

[Noir]

Noir, you are running aorund in circles. Fisrt you say how taxes need to go up, you ignore all the examples of government officials admitting they will will make life and death decisions, then you duck direct questions on how much people should pay

It is obvious, like the liberals here in the US, you can't defend your positions - or debate how Obamacare will ration care, and what it will cost America in money, lost jobs, and lost lives

Yes, I stated taxes will need to go up. That does not mean I want them to, but they will.

I have been quite clear on the NHS for America, it's a bad idea.

[red states rule]

Yes, I stated taxes will need to go up. That does not mean I want them to, but they will.

I have been quite clear on the NHS for America, it's a bad idea.

If they do, it will onyl fuel more anger - and add to the Dems already assured losses on November

OK Noir, now is your chance to show your support for Obamacare. Sned in your $25 (that is US dollars and not British Pounds) and get your own Obamacare shirt

Chris Matthews - the unbiased journalist at MSNBC - has his, and gave it a free plug on his show

No problem given the low ratings of his show and the network - they did not lose that much in ad revenue

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/4485143857_4d2f20cd42_m.jpg





Enchanted Matthews Holds Up His Own 'Health Reform Is a BFD' T-Shirt


Touting how “the Democratic National Committee has turned a lemon into lemonade,” MSNBC's Chris Matthews on Friday afternoon proudly held up a DNC-produced T-shirt which picks up on Joe Biden's comment that passage of health reform is a “big f***ing deal.” Matthews exclaimed: “Just $25 for a piece of delightfully unscripted history!”

The Hardball host reported “the shirts have temporarily sold out, but,” he boasted as he held up one in front of him, “I've got my own right here. If you had to ask, extra large. There it is. 'Health care reform, BFD.' There it is.”

He then plugged his next topic: “Up next, the latest example of the far right gone mad...”

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brent-baker/2010/04/02/enchanted-matthews-holds-his-own-health-reform-bfd-t-shirt

[Noir]

If they do, it will onyl fuel more anger - and add to the Dems already assured losses on November

OK Noir, now is your chance to show your support for Obamacare. Sned in your $25 (that is US dollars and not British Pounds) and get your own Obamacare shirt

Chris Matthews - the unbiased journalist at MSNBC - has his, and gave it a free plug on his show

No problem given the low ratings of his show and the network - they did not lose that much in ad revenue

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/4485143857_4d2f20cd42_m.jpg

Show my support for Obamma care?

Do you even bother to read my posts?

I am AGAINST it.

[namvet]

deathcare will add millions to an already overloaded system. not enough docs. so when you call for an appointemnt you'll have to wait in line for the hundreds of dead beats in front you. oops. office closed.

since Osama smokes we should send him cartons of fags to hasten the spot on his lungs.

[red states rule]

deathcare will add millions to an already overloaded system. not enough docs. so when you call for an appointemnt you'll have to wait in line for the hundreds of dead beats in front you. oops. office closed.

since Osama smokes we should send him cartons of fags to hasten the spot on his lungs.


Your Doctor's waiting room under Obamacare

http://www.strangepolitics.com/images/content/162306.jpg

[actsnoblemartin]

:lol: :lol: :laugh2: :laugh2:


Your Doctor's waiting room under Obamacare

http://www.strangepolitics.com/images/content/162306.jpg

[namvet]

http://i41.tinypic.com/15k0ba.jpg

your appointment has been canceled

[Binky]

Before he ever got elected I could tell he was into population reductiojn through healthcare. I remember at a town meeting an elderly lady telling him how she needed a heart or some pacemaker something like that and she was in her 80's he kept cutting her off with his gloomy speech that impressed upon me he can't stand old people, then when she said she was better then ever sinc ethe surgery he had a glib reply and swept her aside. I think he wants women to have abortions and old people to die.:eek:


Yeah, until one of his daughters comes up pg in the future or when he and Michelle reach that old age criteria......You know........Old, wrinkled, slower movements, withered, frail, not as sharp thinking etc.....Of course tho', it'll be a different tune he's singing in those cases..... Rather leaves a sour note in my mind.......:eek:

[Binky]

http://i41.tinypic.com/15k0ba.jpg

your appointment has been canceled


:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2: Better take your grave marker with you to the doc, in case you have to wait until death to see him. In that case you can just forego any care and funeral and head straight for the cemetary.....:laugh2:

[Binky]

Those are some pretty horrid claims.
I know most of you guys don't like his politics or his person. But I think that claims lime this are quite unnessessary.



:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:So much for what you think since you are not from the US......:laugh2:

[namvet]

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2: Better take your grave marker with you to the doc, in case you have to wait until death to see him. In that case you can just forego any care and funeral and head straight for the cemetary.....:laugh2:


http://i44.tinypic.com/2motf7q.jpg

[Noir]

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:So much for what you think since you are not from the US......:laugh2:

True, but at least I'm not a women, ergo people in my home nation will listen to me
:p

[Binky]

http://i44.tinypic.com/2motf7q.jpg


:laugh2::laugh2:That's a darn good one and gave me a real laugh.....Nice to know you're readin' my bullpucky NV.....:laugh2:

[Binky]

True, but at least I'm not a women, ergo people in my home nation will listen to me
:p



Well, I'm a woman and past the age of giving birth.....Been there, done that. Moved on..... Then go and read up on the probs your country has and then spiel your bullpucky to them....

[Binky]

deathcare will add millions to an already overloaded system. not enough docs. so when you call for an appointemnt you'll have to wait in line for the hundreds of dead beats in front you. oops. office closed.

since Osama smokes we should send him cartons of fags to hasten the spot on his lungs.




"Deathcare" as opposed to "healthcare." :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

[chloe]

Those are some pretty horrid claims.
I know most of you guys don't like his politics or his person. But I think that claims lime this are quite unnessessary.


Fact: He supports abortion
My Opinion: that is murder.

Fact: When running as a candidate for President, I watched him on TV in a town hall setting tell an 80 yr old that sometimes people who are older in years might need to resolve having an unhealthy heart and equate the amount of money a particular surgery or procedure would cost compared to just medicinal maintanance as a cost effective alternative option.

My Opinion: he thinks a senior citizens life is not as valuable when it comes to costly proedures to prolong life as much as a younger person that can contribute more to society.

Honestly Noir, your not even an American and so while my personal opinions may horrify you, My American Presidents actual opinions, actions and legislations horrify me. I guess I have a right to that as much as you have a right to feel indignant of my opinion on the matter.

The main difference between your horrified opinion of my stated personal opinion is that my opinion pretty much doesn't effect your life or change anything policy wise, it only makes you feel whatever you feel and judge me personally based on that.

Whereas, The American Presidents opinions do effect me and my loved ones who are American. I guess that is what I find horrid.

[namvet]

Fact: He supports abortion
My Opinion: that is murder.

Fact: When running as a candidate for President, I watched him on TV in a town hall setting tell an 80 yr old that sometimes people who are older in years might need to resolve having an unhealthy heart and equate the amount of money a particular surgery or procedure would cost compared to just medicinal maintanance as a cost effective alternative option.

My Opinion: he thinks a senior citizens life is not as valuable when it comes to costly proedures to prolong life as much as a younger person that can contribute more to society.

Honestly Noir, your not even an American and so while my personal opinions may horrify you, My American Presidents actual opinions, actions and legislations horrify me. I guess I have a right to that as much as you have a right to feel indignant of my opinion on the matter.

The main difference between your horrified opinion of my stated personal opinion is that my opinion pretty much doesn't effect your life or change anything policy wise, it only makes you feel whatever you feel and judge me personally based on that.

Whereas, The American Presidents opinions do effect me and my loved ones who are American. I guess that is what I find horrid.


damned straight. its our country not his !!!!

[Noir]

Fact: He supports abortion
My Opinion: that is murder.

I think he supports the right for women to have abortions. More than he supports abortion. While i don't agree with him on this issue, that does nor mean that he wants babies dead. You must know the difference between wanting someone to be able to make a choice for themselves and wanting to kill.


Fact: When running as a candidate for President, I watched him on TV in a town hall setting tell an 80 yr old that sometimes people who are older in years might need to resolve having an unhealthy heart and equate the amount of money a particular surgery or procedure would cost compared to just medicinal maintanance as a cost effective alternative option.

My Opinion: he thinks a senior citizens life is not as valuable when it comes to costly proedures to prolong life as much as a younger person that can contribute more to society.

And if you had the choice between saving a teenager and saving an OAP who would you chose to save? And does your choice imply that you want the other person dead?


Honestly Noir, your not even an American and so while my personal opinions may horrify you, My American Presidents actual opinions, actions and legislations horrify me. I guess I have a right to that as much as you have a right to feel indignant of my opinion on the matter.

The main difference between your horrified opinion of my stated personal opinion is that my opinion pretty much doesn't effect your life or change anything policy wise, it only makes you feel whatever you feel and judge me personally based on that.

Whereas, The American Presidents opinions do effect me and my loved ones who are American. I guess that is what I find horrid.

You have the right to think what ever you want, and I the right to comment on it. What nation either of us live in is of little matter in that respect and as such I'm quite disapointed it's been brought up twice in this thread, but I guess some people think it's important.

Edit- Having just seen namvets post, make that three.

[chloe]

I think he supports the right for women to have abortions. More than he supports abortion. While i don't agree with him on this issue, that does nor mean that he wants babies dead. You must know the difference between wanting someone to be able to make a choice for themselves and wanting to kill.



And if you had the choice between saving a teenager and saving an OAP who would you chose to save? And does your choice imply that you want the other person dead?



You have the right to think what ever you want, and I the right to comment on it. What nation either of us live in is of little matter in that respect and as such I'm quite disapointed it's been brought up twice in this thread, but I guess some people think it's important.

Edit- Having just seen namvets post, make that three.

The question posed to Obama was not which life to choose between the life of an 80 yr old or a teenager, the question was whether government healthcare should even invest money to extend the quality of life of an 80 yr if the technology was available for the heart issue the senior was having at the time. Obama's response was about exploring the option of alternative maintanance medicine instead. After Obama expressed that opinion the 80yr old senior shared they actually had received the heart surgery and could do all these things actively and independantly in life whereas before they couldn't. In Answering the quesation you asked me, I would value both the senior and teenager equally.

So while you have a right to comment your personal opinion about any personal opinions I've expressed on this matter, I suppose it could be agreed that other posters have the right to comment with there opinions as well. It is a message board as you have pointed out many times. Those 3 posters have the right to comment on whatever they want just like you even if that disappoints you.

Abortion is terminating a pregnancy, Obama supports that. In My opinion its a copout for a man to say its a womans choice, it took a man and a woman to conceive that baby, and so both are guilty if the pregnancy is terminated. Obama supports terminating life.

[namvet]

you can always tell when he's lying.........his ears are moving

http://ubama.org/ears.gif

this talk about killin' seniors and babies reminds of another SOB back in 40's we had to get rid of. its getting harder for me to tell the diff between these 2.

[Noir]

The question posed to Obama was not which life to choose between the life of an 80 yr old or a teenager, the question was whether government healthcare should even invest money to extend the quality of life of an 80 yr if the technology was available for the heart issue the senior was having at the time. Obama's response was about exploring the option of alternative maintanance medicine instead. After Obama expressed that opinion the 80yr old senior shared they actually had received the heart surgery and could do all these things actively and independantly in life whereas before they couldn't.

Fair enough, but does Obamas response mean he wants old people to die?


In Answering the quesation you asked me, I would value both the senior and teenager equally.

Okay, persoanly I put more value on the young person with the life yet to live.

Let me put it another way, if you where on a sinkig ship and the Captian said women and children to the lifeboats first, does that mean the captian wants the men to die? It is reay the use of the word 'want' that makes all the difference.


To while you have a right to comment your personal opinion about any personal opinions I've expressed on this matter, I suppose it could be agreed that other posters have the right to comment with there opinions as well. It is a message board as you have pointed out many times. Those 3 posters have the right to comment on whatever they want just like you even if that disappoints you.

I'm not saying anyone does not hav the right to say anything. But stupid comments will be highlighted to as stupid comments, and given that my nationality has nothing to do with what I posted or why I posted it to raise it is worthy of highlighting imo


Abortion is terminating a pregnancy, Obama supports that. In My opinion its a copout for a man to say its a womans choice, it took a man and a woman to conceive that baby, and so both are guilty if the pregnancy is terminated. Obama supports terminating life.

No, Obama supports the right for a man and a women to chose if they should have an abortion, and if they chose to have one then they can.
Now I do not agree with abortions, but to claim that someone who supports the right of people to chose wants babies dead is a bit of a leap imo

Do you know anyone IRL that supports the right of people to have abortions? Do you think they all want babies dead?

[namvet]

Fair enough, but does Obamas response mean he wants old people to die?



Okay, persoanly I put more value on the young person with the life yet to live.

Let me put it another way, if you where on a sinkig ship and the Captian said women and children to the lifeboats first, does that mean the captian wants the men to die? It is reay the use of the word 'want' that makes all the difference.



I'm not saying anyone does not hav the right to say anything. But stupid comments will be highlighted to as stupid comments, and given that my nationality has nothing to do with what I posted or why I posted it to raise it is worthy of highlighting imo



No, Obama supports the right for a man and a women to chose if they should have an abortion, and if they chose to have one then they can.
Now I do not agree with abortions, but to claim that someone who supports the right of people to chose wants babies dead is a bit of a leap imo

Do you know anyone IRL that supports the right of people to have abortions? Do you think they all want babies dead?


Okay, persoanly I put more value on the young person with the life yet to live.

you gotta be shittin me. you know how children before the age of 5 contract terminal cancer???? what about them??? off to the furnace????

[Noir]

you gotta be shittin me. you know how children before the age of 5 contract terminal cancer???? what about them??? off to the furnace????

What are you talking about?
If a young person (or indeed anyperson) has a terminal disease then there is little can be done, but that is not to say they should be sent to a furace.

[chloe]

Fair enough, but does Obamas response mean he wants old people to die?



Okay, persoanly I put more value on the young person with the life yet to live.

Let me put it another way, if you where on a sinkig ship and the Captian said women and children to the lifeboats first, does that mean the captian wants the men to die? It is reay the use of the word 'want' that makes all the difference.



I'm not saying anyone does not hav the right to say anything. But stupid comments will be highlighted to as stupid comments, and given that my nationality has nothing to do with what I posted or why I posted it to raise it is worthy of highlighting imo



No, Obama supports the right for a man and a women to chose if they should have an abortion, and if they chose to have one then they can.
Now I do not agree with abortions, but to claim that someone who supports the right of people to chose wants babies dead is a bit of a leap imo

Do you know anyone IRL that supports the right of people to have abortions? Do you think they all want babies dead?

I already stated my opinions on what I think about Obama and old people and abortions. My opinion hasn't changed. I am not interested in your answering your new questions.

[namvet]

What are you talking about?
If a young person (or indeed anyperson) has a terminal disease then there is little can be done, but that is not to say they should be sent to a furace.

there are cure's for cancer. very expensive cures. so cure em or let em die???

[Missileman]

there are cure's for cancer. very expensive cures. so cure em or let em die???

We've been given a very good look at how this system is going to work...you will be provided healthcare based on your connections in DC. Most of us will be told "go home and die".

[Noir]

there are cure's for cancer. very expensive cures. so cure em or let em die???

...you do know what the word 'terminal' means, yeah?
You said "you know how children before the age of 5 contract terminal cancer????"
Which is why I have no idea what you point was.
If a person gets a curable cancer then it should be treated.

[red states rule]

...you do know what the word 'terminal' means, yeah?
You said "you know how children before the age of 5 contract terminal cancer????"
Which is why I have no idea what you point was.
If a person gets a curable cancer then it should be treated.

Here is what America has to look forward to. In the UK, basic surgery is denied do to cost





Operations aimed at tackling back pain and common hernias, to fitting bone-anchored hearing aids and knee replacements and removing varicose veins have been scrapped following recommendations by a Government-appointed management consultancy.

The Department of Health insisted that many of the surgical procedures have been superseded by either medication or better operations.

But the presidents of associations representing the six main surgical disciplines said the public should be fully informed of any policy change regarding such operations.

In a letter to The Guardian, they claimed that "patients attend their GP surgeries with conditions that can be effectively treated by surgery and are being turned away" and said some may not even be told about operations which might help them.

Even if they are referred to a hospital consultant, they could at that stage be refused an operation because trusts have "arbitrarily defined a number of operations that reduce pain, improve quality of life and prevent serious long-term complications as being of 'limited clinical value'".

Individual health trusts decide on the provision of treatments depending on the needs of its local population, but surgeons say some procedures are being scrapped across the NHS.

They cite those which were highlighted in a report by management consultants McKinsey which recommended their "decommissioning" to save £700m amid plans recently announced by the Government to save £1.5bn by reducing "unnecessary prescriptions and hospital referrals".

Surgeons claim cost-cutting lies at the heart of moves to "ration patient care".

Alan Johnson, the president of ENT UK which represents ear, nose and throat surgeons, highlighted research which found that 30 trusts had restricted simple procedures "which they would not fund".

"These procedures have been classified as of low clinical value," he said. "But a child who cannot hear has his or her development impaired.

"Acute tonsillitis in the worst case can see patients admitted to emergency wards which is much more expensive than removing their tonsils."

Norman Lamb, the Liberal Democrats health spokesman, said the surgeons' concerns were "cuts by stealth".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/7533996/Basic-surgical-procedures-denied-to-thousands-amid-NHS-cost-cutting.html

[Missileman]

there are cure's for cancer. very expensive cures. so cure em or let em die???

In a lot of cases, expensive treatments aren't cures, only life extending. Do we spend a few million to extend the life of a deathly ill child a few weeks, or do we let them die? At the end of the day, all of these medical decisions ARE going to reached on the basis of expense.

[BoogyMan]

In a lot of cases, expensive treatments aren't cures, only life extending. Do we spend a few million to extend the life of a deathly ill child a few weeks, or do we let them die? At the end of the day, all of these medical decisions ARE going to reached on the basis of expense.

Which is a tacit admission that there WILL be what is the equivalent of death panels in the new socialist America.

[namvet]

...you do know what the word 'terminal' means, yeah?
You said "you know how children before the age of 5 contract terminal cancer????"
Which is why I have no idea what you point was.
If a person gets a curable cancer then it should be treated.

Osama's option here is assisted suicide. 100-200 bucks for that or pay out tens of thousands for a cure which may or may not work.

get it??? he's the qualified doctor here. its his option. not yours. he's in the OR/ER telling doctors who to save and who to let die.

seniors. well just kiss grandma and grandpa goodbye. make their funeral arrangements. case closed.

Pelosi's in on it to. she wants all the women in this country neutered or on birth control. why??? less babies means less expense on the deathcare system. its a $$$$ saver. gee we think she is sooooo thoughful


wanna see this system at work???

g6ojBgTyA7I

will your country save your ass or put you to sleep like a dog??? im finished with you !!!!

[red states rule]

Which is a tacit admission that there WILL be what is the equivalent of death panels in the new socialist America.

It is all part of that hope and change Obama has brought to America.

Now a human life will have a price tag and a come with a cost analysis

[Missileman]

Which is a tacit admission that there WILL be what is the equivalent of death panels in the new socialist America.

Are you insinuating that it's a secret I've been keeping?

[red states rule]

A great example on how state run Obamacare has worked in the US




MATTERS OF LIFE AND DEATH

State denies cancer treatment, offers suicide instead
'To say, we'll pay for you to die, but not pay for you to live, it's cruel'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: June 19, 2008
11:15 pm Eastern

© 2010 WorldNetDaily

State officials have offered a lung cancer patient the option of having the Oregon Health Plan, set up in 1994 to ration health care, pay for an assisted suicide but not for the chemotherapy prescribed by her physician.

The story appears to be a happy ending for Barbara Wagner, who has been notified by a drug manufacturer that it will provide the expensive medication, estimated to cost $4,000 a month, for the first year and then allow her to apply for further treatment, according to a report in the Eugene Register-Guard.

But the word from the state was coverage for palliative care, which would include the state's assisted suicide program, would be allowed but not coverage for the cancer treatment drugs.

"To say to someone, we'll pay for you to die, but not pay for you to live, it's cruel," Wagner told the newspaper. "I get angry. Who do they think they are?"

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=67565

[namvet]

A great example on how state run Obamacare has weorked in the US

ive already emailed these killers and my state reps. my answer is no. I refuse to accept it. i will not pay the fines. I stand in total defiance. up to them to decided what part of NO they don't understand.

NO !!!!! and you can't make me and that's final

[chloe]

Osama's option here is assisted suicide. 100-200 bucks for that or pay out tens of thousands for a cure which may or may not work.

get it??? he's the qualified doctor here. its his option. not yours. he's in the OR/ER telling doctors who to save and who to let die.

seniors. well just kiss grandma and grandpa goodbye. make their funeral arrangements. case closed.

Pelosi's in on it to. she wants all the women in this country neutered or on birth control. why??? less babies means less expense on the deathcare system. its a $$$$ saver. gee we think she is sooooo thoughful


wanna see this system at work???


g6ojBgTyA7I



will your country save your ass or put you to sleep like a dog??? im finished with you !!!!


Deathcare system, Government Car Dealerships.....Socialist President....Commie America...it won't be long now.

[Noir]

Osama's option here is assisted suicide. 100-200 bucks for that or pay out tens of thousands for a cure which may or may not work.

get it??? he's the qualified doctor here. its his option. not yours. he's in the OR/ER telling doctors who to save and who to let die.

seniors. well just kiss grandma and grandpa goodbye. make their funeral arrangements. case closed.

Pelosi's in on it to. she wants all the women in this country neutered or on birth control. why??? less babies means less expense on the deathcare system. its a $$$$ saver. gee we think she is sooooo thoughful


wanna see this system at work???

g6ojBgTyA7I

will your country save your ass or put you to sleep like a dog??? im finished with you !!!!

If the person is terminally ill, as you said, then nothing will save them.

As for my country, given my Grandmother has been in and out of hospital for all of my life with verious health problems yes I do believe it will 'save my ass'

I don't see how you are suddenly done with me, given I only responds to one of your posts in this thread to ask if you understood the meaning of terminal lol.

I've said before (and even a few times in this thread) ObamaCare will be bad for the US, even though we agree on this you (and others) seem to think we do not. and also I can not watch your video as I'm on my phone.

[Missileman]

If the person is terminally ill, as you said, then nothing will save them.

Life is a terminal illness...nothing will save any of us.

[Noir]

Life is a terminal illness...nothing will save any of us.

This is both true and untrue.
If we can fix cells as at the rate at which they are destroyed then there is no biological reason why we can not live until our star dies (or if we made it to other stars in our galaxy by then) until our galaxy and the andromada galaxy collide (or if we make it to another safer galaxy) until we die by heat death, which we can only save ourselves from by a reversal of entropy.
So yeah you will die, but that may well be thousands (or many more) years away.

[namvet]

This is both true and untrue.
If we can fix cells as at the rate at which they are destroyed then there is no biological reason why we can not live until our star dies (or if we made it to other stars in our galaxy by then) until our galaxy and the andromada galaxy collide (or if we make it to another safer galaxy) until we die by heat death, which we can only save ourselves from by a reversal of entropy.
So yeah you will die, but that may well be thousands (or many more) years away.


we won't have any $$$ for research either. maybe you can help out ????

[namvet]

Deathcare system, Government Car Dealerships.....Socialist President....Commie America...it won't be long now.

yeah this country picked the worst loser in history. nice going USA!!!!

[Noir]

we won't have any $$$ for research either. maybe you can help out ????

Money is not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is babies. People like to have them.
There are two choices, have a high brithrate, high deathrate. Or a low birthrate and low deathrate.
Trying to convince people to not have children will a much bigger problem than funding, and poses a question right to the heart of our civilisation.

[actsnoblemartin]

im sorry, but i wish their was i.q. test, criminal background check, bank account check

something atleast, kids are a not a hot dog, you just feel like having

we should make sure people can take care of them before they have them

atleast thats my opinion :coffee:


Money is not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is babies. People like to have them.
There are two choices, have a high brithrate, high deathrate. Or a low birthrate and low deathrate.
Trying to convince people to not have children will a much bigger problem than funding, and poses a question right to the heart of our civilisation.

[Noir]

im sorry, but i wish their was i.q. test, criminal background check, bank account check

something atleast, kids are a not a hot dog, you just feel like having

we should make sure people can take care of them before they have them

atleast thats my opinion :coffee:

and you want this to be decided by who exactly? The state chosing who can have babies and who can't? =/

[namvet]

Money is not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is babies. People like to have them.
There are two choices, have a high brithrate, high deathrate. Or a low birthrate and low deathrate.
Trying to convince people to not have children will a much bigger problem than funding, and poses a question right to the heart of our civilisation.

if Pelosi gets her way its no babies................

[Noir]

if Pelosi gets her way its no babies................

I know you did not make those comments relitive to what I said, however, if the technology is developed, which would you rather?

High birthrate, high deathrate
or
Low birthrate, low deathrate

[namvet]

I know you did not make those comments relitive to what I said, however, if the technology is developed, which would you rather?

High birthrate, high deathrate
or
Low birthrate, low deathrate

why don't you ask me which funeral home or maternal ward i prefer???


Trying to convince people to not have children will a much bigger problem than funding,

and i said what???

BTY last i heard more are being born and less are dying

[cat slave]

Indeed. Remember his grandmother!

Yeah, he was really broke up over his gran ma! I thought
at the time it was just a ploy/fodder for his campaign!
How conveeeenient!