Christian faith: Calvinism is back

[BoogyMan]

You would have to have the ability to look "into" my heart, into my soul, to find where I derive my right to my own truth. As a child of God I have been given the right to discern my truth and not depend upon the truth as interpreted by others.

Perhaps this says it better:

Conversations With God

So you have the authority to take action that is directly in opposition to what Christ taught? Christ taught that He had all authority, and He has not ceded that authority to man.

The prophet Jeremiah pointed out that man's standards for setting authority for his life will not cut it.


O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

The book of Proverbs weighs in on this as well.


He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.

I have already pointed out that it is the scriptures from God that furnish us completely unto all good works (II Tim 2:15) and if we were to look into II Peter 1:3-4 we would see that God has given us all things necessary to life and godliness.

It is important to consider how God looks at additions to or subtractions from the word.


18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Christ has all authority over His church, not you or I, and we don't get to change it.

[darin]

wow...just...amazing. Enjoy the legalism! :)

[SassyLady]

So you have the authority to take action that is directly in opposition to what Christ taught? Christ taught that He had all authority, and He has not ceded that authority to man.

The prophet Jeremiah pointed out that man's standards for setting authority for his life will not cut it.

The book of Proverbs weighs in on this as well.


I have already pointed out that it is the scriptures from God that furnish us completely unto all good works (II Tim 2:15) and if we were to look into II Peter 1:3-4 we would see that God has given us all things necessary to life and godliness.

It is important to consider how God looks at additions to or subtractions from the word.


Christ has all authority over His church, not you or I, and we don't get to change it.

This is your truth......run with it. If you are right and I am wrong, you will not be affected. However, if we are both right, I'll see you there.

See, the difference between you and I is that I am not trying to convince you to change your faith ...... just that you are narrowing yourself to experiencing God because you are so caught up in what you think Christ said (once again, as interpreted by man). You are so caught up in the "recorded words" that you cannot open yourself to experience anything outside of what was recorded so long ago.

At one time it was written that the world was flat.....and man believed it until they discovered it to be otherwise (because some wise soul was willing to go against the conventional wisdom of the day and die to find out). If they had always believed the it to be flat, no one would have ventured out and discovered whole new continents. I see you as being one who still believes the world to be flat and is afraid to discover that so much has been added to the definition of God since the Bible was written.

[BoogyMan]

How about answering the authority question, dear lady? Where do you get the authority for your actions?


This is your truth......run with it. If you are right and I am wrong, you will not be affected. However, if we are both right, I'll see you there.

See, the difference between you and I is that I am not trying to convince you to change your faith ...... just that you are narrowing yourself to experiencing God because you are so caught up in what you think Christ said (once again, as interpreted by man). You are so caught up in the "recorded words" that you cannot open yourself to experience anything outside of what was recorded so long ago.

At one time it was written that the world was flat.....and man believed it until they discovered it to be otherwise (because some wise soul was willing to go against the conventional wisdom of the day and die to find out). If they had always believed the it to be flat, no one would have ventured out and discovered whole new continents. I see you as being one who still believes the world to be flat and is afraid to discover that so much has been added to the definition of God since the Bible was written.

[SassyLady]

How about answering the authority question, dear lady? Where do you get the authority for your actions?


I did answer .... you just can't hear it because it doesn't jive with your perspective of the universe.

You think all authority comes from the Bible and I think authority comes from "knowing" at some deep, primitive, core level of my being.....and I don't depend on words written by men from centuries ago.....men, who by the very nature of being men, are not infallible.

Boogyman....why is it so hard for you to accept that I don't see the Bible as MY authority on anything ..... but I accept that you use it as your authority. I have not told you that what you believe is wrong ... just that there might be MORE than what was originally recorded .... things that are pertinent to how I believe but were left out of the Bible.

Why do you keep trying to convince me that I MUST see all things through the prism of the Bible?

[BoogyMan]

princess, the problem I have with that ideology is that it flies in the face of the words of Christ Himself.

HE is the way, HE is the truth, and HE is the life. There are not hundreds of spiritual truths, there is one.

[Abbey Marie]

princess, the problem I have with that ideology is that it flies in the face of the words of Christ Himself.

HE is the way, HE is the truth, and HE is the life. There are not hundreds of spiritual truths, there is one.


Take up your cross and follow me... :)

The thing about Jesus, is, he's an all or nothing guy. He was abundantly clear about being the only way to the Father. If one professes to be Christian, then why wouldn't one believe His words, and all of His words, above all else? If one is not Christian, then I would expect that to them, the Bible is just a mildly interesting book with some historical value and some wacky stories. Their choice entirely.

But- once one reads/hears the words of Christ, and chooses to call themselves Christian, there is really no middle ground, no "many paths". Jesus left no room for such doubt.

[SassyLady]

Take up your cross and follow me... :)

The thing about Jesus, is, he's an all or nothing guy. He was abundantly clear about being the only way to the Father. If one professes to be Christian, then why wouldn't one believe His words, and all of His words, above all else? If one is not Christian, then I would expect that to them, the Bible is just a mildly interesting book with some historical value and some wacky stories. Their choice entirely.

[B]But- once one reads/hears the words of Christ, and chooses to call themselves Christian, there is really no middle ground, no "many paths". Jesus left no room for such doubt.[b]

I don't think I've ever called myself Christian. This narrow aspect (my way or the highway) espoused in the Bible and by Christians is why I am not into religion....because it is an all or nothing aspect. I have read the Bible and I don't let it dictate how I live my life .... for me it was a foundation only, a starting point, for my lifelong spiritual growth.

As I said before, if Christians are right and I am wrong, they won't be affected by my choice. And, if we are both right, then I'll see all of them there and we'll have a good laugh!

[Abbey Marie]

I don't think I've ever called myself Christian. This narrow aspect (my way or the highway) espoused in the Bible and by Christians is why I am not into religion....because it is an all or nothing aspect. I have read the Bible and I don't let it dictate how I live my life .... for me it was a foundation only, a starting point, for my lifelong spiritual growth.

As I said before, if Christians are right and I am wrong, they won't be affected by my choice. And, if we are both right, then I'll see all of them there and we'll have a good laugh!

I don't think you ever have, Mkp. Not directed to you, and it is totally up to you what you believe. :)

[SassyLady]

I don't think you ever have, Mkp. Not directed to you, and it is totally up to you what you believe. :)

I'm glad you don't hold it against me Abbey!!! :beer:

[avatar4321]

Did Calvinism leave?

[darin]

Take up your cross and follow me... :)

The thing about Jesus, is, he's an all or nothing guy. He was abundantly clear about being the only way to the Father.

But- once one reads/hears the words of Christ, and chooses to call themselves Christian, there is really no middle ground, no "many paths". Jesus left no room for such doubt.

Abbey - how many ways can Christ reveal Himself to people?

[BoogyMan]

Abbey - how many ways can Christ reveal Himself to people?

The better question would be "how many ways DID He reveal Himself."

[Abbey Marie]

Abbey - how many ways can Christ reveal Himself to people?

Every way He wants, of course. But I do wonder how we can be sure that it is actually Christ revealing himself. We must always be on guard that it is not the Deceiver instead. Jesus' words in the Bible, on the other hand, are the basis of our faith. Without them, we are just making things up as we go along. But I know you know this. :)

Personally, I do not find the Jesus of the Bible lacking in any way. In fact, His nature is already somewhat more than I can fully comprehend.

[PostmodernProphet]

Abbey - how many ways can Christ reveal Himself to people?

can you come up with a solution for WHY he would reveal himself in multiple ways.....I can see a need for those denied access to scripture, but why would he have one book and way for Christians, and another way which ignores himself completely for Muslims and another way which ignores deity completely for Buddhists, or another way which believes (fill in the blank) just for one person?.......do you consider him schizophrenic?.....

[revelarts]

It's pretty Clear that the Bible says that God has reaveled himself and his ways most clearly via Adam - Noah - Abraham - Moses - the law - the prophets and Finally Jesus and the apostles. In the old & New testaments there are many "other " religions and sincerely held beliefs. Mnay here write as if the people of the past didn't understand that other groups had "there own ways to god/s" The Bible acknowledges it and says that 99.9% of them are flat wrong. and the the people are following demons and not God. There is a some people in the scripture however that are truly following the God to the best of there knowledge. And when they are presented with the Fuller light of Scripture. They recognize it as just that and embrace it rather than stubbornly hold onto their own particular view.

So yes there may be Muslims, Buddhist, Hindi, pagans etc that have had the light of God in their hearts but have yet to hear the Gospel of Jesus and yet have a real faith in the true and living God that created the heavens and the earth and that faith , I believe, will bring them to heaven, IN SPITE OF the trappings of false religions. However those people if exposed to the Bible will reject the other ideas and recognize the fuller revelation of truth in scripture.

I don't understand how anyone whose read the scripture can come to a very different conclusion honestly.
I mean based on what the Bible says, and the examples contained there.

mrskurtsprincess
Sure people can read the Bible and begin to get "spiritual" but if you decide to pick and choose the parts you like or that "feel" right to you. Then it seems your a bit self deceived. how people can say they believe in "Christ" but reject half of what he teaches. Then call it a "beginning". The world religions don't jib together without outright denial of, what true adherents and its founders considered, core teaching. As cool as what you say sounds it seems a bit naive and dishonest to me. Jesus said some things that you deny, sorry I'll stick with Jesus. And your not taking a chance Jesus says he "has the keys of Hell and death" and "fear him that has power to send both body and soul into hell."

I just don't understand how anyone can lightly disregard those warnings and many like them from someone they say they include in there spiritual teachings.

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Calvin was cool




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[SassyLady]

mrskurtsprincess
Sure people can read the Bible and begin to get "spiritual" but if you decide to pick and choose the parts you like or that "feel" right to you. Then it seems your a bit self deceived. how people can say they believe in "Christ" but reject half of what he teaches. Then call it a "beginning". The world religions don't jib together without outright denial of, what true adherents and its founders considered, core teaching. As cool as what you say sounds it seems a bit naive and dishonest to me. Jesus said some things that you deny, sorry I'll stick with Jesus. And your not taking a chance Jesus says he "has the keys of Hell and death" and "fear him that has power to send both body and soul into hell."

I just don't understand how anyone can lightly disregard those warnings and many like them from someone they say they include in there spiritual teachings.

Naive and dishonest ..... who's truth are we talking about here? Yours or mine? Have I ever said that your truth is false? I do believe that I have only stated what I believe to be my truth.

I don't believe I've ever said I am a Christian, so all the arguments here to intimidate me regarding the word of God, the path to Christ, etc. do not have an impact. I have said that I believe in God, and yet I am not religious, that I am just a spiritual person. In my opinion, there is a vast world of difference between the two.

My spirituality didn't come from reading the Bible .... it came long after I had put the Bible aside as the guiding force of my life. When I went to church and took Bible classes I felt religious because the only foundation I had to base a belief system on was the Bible (and it was the belief system being taught by that particular religion - Baptist). I then went through a time of attending other churches and listening to other interpretations of the Bible and the word of God. Each one had their own take on what God expected.

Then I started reading extensively about other belief systems not based on the Bible and realized that what I read in the Bible was not enough for me. It was then that I realized that I would rather be spiritual (picking and choosing if you wish) than religious (adhering to one particular doctrine). It's funny .... but going to a Jesuit college is what changed my outlook and helped me define the difference between religion and spirituality. Taking classes on religion forced me to look at more than one belief system.

As a result, I don't believe in heaven or hell, therefore, what is said in the Bible does not cause fear in me. To me it is just another source of information. It is sad to me that people seem to "need" a heaven or hell to dictate their actions (reward/punishment) .... that they need words written down from "God" or "Jesus" in order to know the right way to be, know and do.

[revelarts]

Naive and dishonest ..... who's truth are we talking about here? Yours or mine? Have I ever said that your truth is false? I do believe that I have only stated what I believe to be my truth.

I don't believe I've ever said I am a Christian, so all the arguments here to intimidate me regarding the word of God, the path to Christ, etc. do not have an impact. I have said that I believe in God, and yet I am not religious, that I am just a spiritual person. In my opinion, there is a vast world of difference between the two.

My spirituality didn't come from reading the Bible .... it came long after I had put the Bible aside as the guiding force of my life. When I went to church and took Bible classes I felt religious because the only foundation I had to base a belief system on was the Bible (and it was the belief system being taught by that particular religion - Baptist). I then went through a time of attending other churches and listening to other interpretations of the Bible and the word of God. Each one had their own take on what God expected.

Then I started reading extensively about other belief systems not based on the Bible and realized that what I read in the Bible was not enough for me. It was then that I realized that I would rather be spiritual (picking and choosing if you wish) than religious (adhering to one particular doctrine). It's funny .... but going to a Jesuit college is what changed my outlook and helped me define the difference between religion and spirituality. Taking classes on religion forced me to look at more than one belief system.

As a result, I don't believe in heaven or hell, therefore, what is said in the Bible does not cause fear in me. To me it is just another source of information. It is sad to me that people seem to "need" a heaven or hell to dictate their actions (reward/punishment) .... that they need words written down from "God" or "Jesus" in order to know the right way to be, know and do.

I think I hear where your coming from. You had some baptist teachings then after your exposure to other religions you decided the Bible was generally wrong but had somethings of minor value but you now understand right, wrong, god and spirituality by your own inner guidance system, revealed after long extensive study. At this point you feel sorry for others whom you feel don't have your clear inner light and seem forced to plod along under the whip of words from old books and spiritual founders that make threats and promises that you now clearly understand to be false but still, somehow, "informational".

ok

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who's truth are we talking about here? Yours or mine? Have I ever said that your truth is false? I do believe that I have only stated what I believe to be my truth.

I'm talking about universal realities. Truths that stand whether we believe them or not. Not personal notions of "truth".

We can cordially disagree on what a particular truth is but we both cannot honestly claim that our contradictory ideas are BOTH true at the same time.
Unless we are willing to acknowledge that the "spiritual" world or talk is purely and totally imaginary and has no bearing on reality other than some personal mental conditioning. But reality demands (and you live out daily) that if your body is Miami today at noon est your body is not in Hong Kong at the same time. That if Jesus, on real wooden cross, spoke on a certain Day to the thief on the wooden cross next to him and said that "today" he would be with him in paradise. That their real souls went to real destination called paradise. or not. And Jesus brought his soul back into a resurrected body 3 days later, in fact and reality. Or not. But only as a curious idea and mental goad into good deeds. And that your own inner guides to spiritually (what ever those ideas may be now) are true in reality. or not.

If that's not the case and we each have our own realities, then how can you be sure your not just talking to yourself right now and i'm not just a figment of your own reality that begins and ends with you. or that the world didn't begin yesterday or won't begin until tomorrow (whatever that is). that this is just a spiritual hologram with no meaning what so ever and this whole conversation is meaningless life and death are meaningless love and murder are as real as the wind in an Asian ink drawing?

foprtyuerg ptn wpryn- kwrypnk pgkb k sptk wy kmgfnyn pypnen pynk 9yk 9yky k0y y9n k9ynk 9y0,etyj &9)--g-6587 787 78hjto50l0 005lbpd pjp

[SassyLady]

I think I hear where your coming from. You had some baptist teachings then after your exposure to other religions you decided the Bible was generally wrong but had somethings of minor value but you now understand right, wrong, god and spirituality by your own inner guidance system, revealed after long extensive study. At this point you feel sorry for others whom you feel don't have your clear inner light and seem forced to plod along under the whip of words from old books and spiritual founders that make threats and promises that you now clearly understand to be false but still, somehow, "informational".

ok

---------------------


I'm talking about universal realities. Truths that stand whether we believe them or not. Not personal notions of "truth".

We can cordially disagree on what a particular truth is but we both cannot honestly claim that our contradictory ideas are BOTH true at the same time.
Unless we are willing to acknowledge that the "spiritual" world or talk is purely and totally imaginary and has no bearing on reality other than some personal mental conditioning. But reality demands (and you live out daily) that if your body is Miami today at noon est your body is not in Hong Kong at the same time. That if Jesus, on real wooden cross, spoke on a certain Day to the thief on the wooden cross next to him and said that "today" he would be with him in paradise. That their real souls went to real destination called paradise. or not. And Jesus brought his soul back into a resurrected body 3 days later, in fact and reality. Or not. But only as a curious idea and mental goad into good deeds. And that your own inner guides to spiritually (what ever those ideas may be now) are true in reality. or not.

If that's not the case and we each have our own realities, then how can you be sure your not just talking to yourself right now and i'm not just a figment of your own reality that begins and ends with you. or that the world didn't begin yesterday or won't begin until tomorrow (whatever that is). that this is just a spiritual hologram with no meaning what so ever and this whole conversation is meaningless life and death are meaningless love and murder are as real as the wind in an Asian ink drawing?

foprtyuerg ptn wpryn- kwrypnk pgkb k sptk wy kmgfnyn pypnen pynk 9yk 9yky k0y y9n k9ynk 9y0,etyj &9)--g-6587 787 78hjto50l0 005lbpd pjp

Rev ... I admire you for knowing your way and why you are following your path. I think I'll take a different one.....perhaps we'll meet someday....or not.