Indoctrination mk 2

[Noir]

Good day all,
Was helping my wee brother out with his Easter RE homework tonight (he's 5 years old) and some of the questions were surprisingly factual in their claims.

For example one section gave a list of incomplete sentences and a group of words, you had to pick the word from the pool to complete the sentence, some of the phrases included "Jesus *rose from the dead after *three days" and "Jesus was *crucified on a wooden *cross"
He also had to colour in an image which had like a rainbow and animals ect and in large block front arcoss the top the words "Jesus is alive"

I flicked through his booklet, there is not one "may" "possibly" or "is believed to" everything is said as fact. facts that indoctrinate.
I will be heading down to see my local MLA in the next few days to discuss thee mater with him, however given he is part of an ultra-Christian party I doubt anything will be taken seriously.

[BoogyMan]

How odd, most atheists teach their faith as fact as well. Hmmmmm

[Noir]

How odd, most atheists teach their faith as fact as well. Hmmmmm

Well any athiest that says they know there is no god for a fact is just as bad. No one can know.

At the very least I would want these books to contain phases such as "Jesus may of risen from the dead after three days"

Would you not agree?

[BoogyMan]

Well any athiest that says they know there is no god for a fact is just as bad. No one can know.

At the very least I would want these books to contain phases such as "Jesus may of risen from the dead after three days"

Would you not agree?

No, I would not agree. Remember your "irrefutable proof" thread? Sounds pretty dogmatic to me.

[Noir]

No, I would not agree. Remember your "irrefutable proof" thread? Sounds pretty dogmatic to me.

That thread is about evolution, which is proveable like any other scientific theory,

However if there is a god or not can never be proven or disproven.

Now, do you not agree that it is wrong that a school is teaching 5 year olds beliefs as facts?

[BoogyMan]

That thread is about evolution, which is proveable like any other scientific theory,

However if there is a god or not can never be proven or disproven.

Now, do you not agree that it is wrong that a school is teaching 5 year olds beliefs as facts?

So what you are claiming is that your faith in evolution is a good faith because it is yous? Got it.

The hypocrisy is SO delicious.

[Missileman]

So what you are claiming is that your faith in evolution is a good faith because it is yous? Got it.

The hypocrisy is SO delicious.

Belief in the absence of any evidence is faith. Belief where there is evidence is reason.

[Noir]

So what you are claiming is that your faith in evolution is a good faith because it is yous? Got it.

The hypocrisy is SO delicious.

No, my faith in evolution is good because it is scientificly proveable, just like my faith in radio-activity, gravity, electro-magnetism and so forth.

Now, leaving that aside. Please answer the following 2 questions.

1) Do you think that any god has been proven by fact to exist?

2) Do you think it is right to teach young children Non-proven facts as if they are facts?

[BoogyMan]

Belief in the absence of any evidence is faith. Belief where there is evidence is reason.

You believe in what you call evidence, no difference. Faith is faith and hypocrisy is, well........

[BoogyMan]

No, my faith in evolution is good because it is scientificly proveable, just like my faith in radio-activity, gravity, electro-magnetism and so forth.

Now, leaving that aside. Please answer the following 2 questions.

1) Do you think that any god has been proven by fact to exist?

2) Do you think it is right to teach young children Non-proven facts as if they are facts?

I do believe that God has been proven to exist.

I do believe that you would teach your faith and hypocritically attack others teaching theirs.

[Noir]

I do believe that God has been proven to exist.

I do believe that you would teach your faith and hypocritically attack others teaching theirs.

Okay, which god was proven to exist? And on what day was this proof publish and by who?

So do you think we should teach kids about gravity, evolution, atoms and my other scientific faiths?

[Missileman]

You believe in what you call evidence, no difference. Faith is faith and hypocrisy is, well........

No, I weigh evidence available, and reach a belief based on it. It always amazes me that the religious want to try to equate a conclusion based on evidence with an act of faith...I suspect that it must be a deep down doubt in their own conclusions.

Don't be ashamed...stand proud in your belief in a fairy tale.

[Missileman]

That thread is about evolution, which is proveable like any other scientific theory,

However if there is a god or not can never be proven or disproven.

Now, do you not agree that it is wrong that a school is teaching 5 year olds beliefs as facts?

Parents have the right to pass on their culture, including religious culture to their kids...really need to get over this.

[Noir]

Parents have the right to pass on their culture, including religious culture to their kids...really need to get over this.

Well there are 2 points about this

a) No they don't. And just because they do doesn't mean they should.

And more importantly

B) My dad is not a Christian, he is not chosing to 'pass this culture on' it is the school that are teaching facts like 'Jesus died for your sins' to five year olds aka indoctrination.

[Missileman]

Well there are 2 points about this

a) No they don't. And just because they do doesn't mean they should.

And more importantly

B) My dad is not a Christian, he is not chosing to 'pass this culture on' it is the school that are teaching facts like 'Jesus died for your sins' to five year olds aka indoctrination.

Is it a private religious school or a public school?

[Noir]

Is it a private religious school or a public school?

Public.

[Missileman]

Public.

The school has no business teaching religion if it's a public school. That still doesn't negate the rights of parents tho.

[Noir]

The school has no business teaching religion if it's a public school. That still doesn't negate the rights of parents tho.

I know, that is why I am going to see my representive, for all the good it will do.

And my views on parents 'rights' are well known, but not for this topic. Just as evolution is nit part of this topic.

The only focus of this topic is if children should be taught a religious view point as fact, and the answer is clear, no they should not.

[Missileman]

I know, that is why I am going to see my representive, for all the good it will do.

And my views on parents 'rights' are well known, but not for this topic. Just as evolution is nit part of this topic.

The only focus of this topic is if children should be taught a religious view point as fact, and the answer is clear, no they should not.

They can be taught religion as fact by their parents or parent's agents as in a religious school. "Should" has nothing to do with it.

[BoogyMan]

No, I weigh evidence available, and reach a belief based on it. It always amazes me that the religious want to try to equate a conclusion based on evidence with an act of faith...I suspect that it must be a deep down doubt in their own conclusions.

Don't be ashamed...stand proud in your belief in a fairy tale.

What and idiotic argument, but hypocrites never could stand the heat of being exposed. :)

[Missileman]

What and idiotic argument, but hypocrites never could stand the heat of being exposed. :)

Your accusation of hypocrisy is as baseless as your religion.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,




Parents have the right to pass on their culture, including religious culture to their kids...really need to get over this.




1. Mark it,... this is the smartest thing Missileman has EVER said!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Missileman]

Sorry bout that,








1. Mark it,... this is the smartest thing Missileman has EVER said!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

Still waiting for the opportunity to say the same for you.

[PostmodernProphet]

I know, that is why I am going to see my representive, for all the good it will do.

And my views on parents 'rights' are well known, but not for this topic. Just as evolution is nit part of this topic.

The only focus of this topic is if children should be taught a religious view point as fact, and the answer is clear, no they should not.

so instead of the child being taught his parents point of view, you want to insist that he be taught your's?.........

have your parents' point of view changed?.....as I recall you once complained that you went to a parochial school that your parents selected......unless things have changed I expect your parents have no problem with your brother being given material like this to learn reading.....yet you intend to head to your MP's office to put an end to it.....interesting, neh?......

[Noir]

so instead of the child being taught his parents point of view, you want to insist that he be taught your's?.........

have your parents' point of view changed?.....as I recall you once complained that you went to a parochial school that your parents selected......unless things have changed I expect your parents have no problem with your brother being given material like this to learn reading.....yet you intend to head to your MP's office to put an end to it.....interesting, neh?......

No, at the very least I want them to be taught that for example 'Jesus may of died for you sins' because it is not a fact that he did, though I accept that he may have.

No, you misunderstand the situation. Almost every state school is split into protestant and catholic, if you are a unionist you select one of the Protestant ones, If you are a nationalist you select one of the Catholic ones, that's just the way things are. So while the school my wee brother is at is a so called Protestant school, like the one I went to, they are not specificly religious schools, and as a parent your only choice is to chose which school out of your allowed pool you will send them to.

[PostmodernProphet]

No, at the very least I want them to be taught that for example 'Jesus may of died for you sins' because it is not a fact that he did, though I accept that he may have.

No, you misunderstand the situation. Almost every state school is split into protestant and catholic, if you are a unionist you select one of the Protestant ones, If you are a nationalist you select one of the Catholic ones, that's just the way things are. So while the school my wee brother is at is a so called Protestant school, like the one I went to, they are not specificly religious schools, and as a parent your only choice is to chose which school out of your allowed pool you will send them to.

how strange.....so he is attending a protestant school but you object to him being taught what protestants believe?......I think you need to be asking your MP to create "atheist" schools for you to send your children to, instead of trying to change what protestants are allowed to teach....or perhaps you could do what folks here in the US have to do.....build private schools to teach their children what they want to teach them.....

[BoogyMan]

Your accusation of hypocrisy is as baseless as your religion.

No, but it may be as baseless as YOUR religion. :lol:

[Noir]

how strange.....so he is attending a protestant school but you object to him being taught what protestants believe?......I think you need to be asking your MP to create "atheist" schools for you to send your children to, instead of trying to change what protestants are allowed to teach....or perhaps you could do what folks here in the US have to do.....build private schools to teach their children what they want to teach them.....

Like I said, you just don't get it. EVERY school in my town is known as either a Protestant or a catholic school. No matter which school my dad would of chosen Cameron would be in a Protestant or catholic school. Get it yet?

And no I do not want atheist schools, I just do not want faith to be taught as fact.

[BoogyMan]

Like I said, you just don't get it. EVERY school in my town is known as either a Protestant or a catholic school. No matter which school my dad would of chosen Cameron would be in a Protestant or catholic school. Get it yet?

And no I do not want atheist schools, I just do not want faith to be taught as fact.

Up front I would like to point out that the Bible provides NO basis for religious schools, but the fact that he IS in a religious school just makes your point even LESS valid as you no business telling a religious organization what to teach.

Game, set, and match.

[Noir]

Up front I would like to point out that the Bible provides NO basis for religious schools, but the fact that he IS in a religious school just makes your point even LESS valid as you no business telling a religious organization what to teach.

Game, set, and match.

Well done, you have both proven you know nothing about the northern Irish system, and even more impressivly than that have proven you can not read, as I have clearly set out what the terms Protestant and Catholic mean in relation to schools, if you have read what I have written and do not understand that then there is no hope in having a decent conversation here.

[Missileman]

No, but it may be as baseless as YOUR religion. :lol:

You kick yourself in the balls and then laugh...explains a lot.

[PostmodernProphet]

Like I said, you just don't get it. EVERY school in my town is known as either a Protestant or a catholic school. No matter which school my dad would of chosen Cameron would be in a Protestant or catholic school. Get it yet?

And no I do not want atheist schools, I just do not want faith to be taught as fact.

then pay tuition at a private school that teaches the way you want it taught.....as I did for 12 years.....

[bullypulpit]

You believe in what you call evidence, no difference. Faith is faith and hypocrisy is, well........

Boogy squirms uncomfortably on the hook. Heh.

[bullypulpit]

I do believe that God has been proven to exist.

I do believe that you would teach your faith and hypocritically attack others teaching theirs.

Belief does not constitute proof. Empirically, independently and repeatably verifiable...you know, scientific method...constitutes proof.

[Noir]

then pay tuition at a private school that teaches the way you want it taught.....as I did for 12 years.....

Well I guess that's alright if you can afford it.

But that does not address the problem, state schools are teaching what may of happened as stone cold fact. I happen to find that wrong, maybe you don't because it suits your beliefs to have what may of happened taught as fact. I would rather it is taught as something that may of happened, seems reasonable, no?

[BoogyMan]

Boogy squirms uncomfortably on the hook. Heh.

If you call mockery of the blatant hypocrisy of this thread "squirming uncomfortably" you can consider me Mr. Squirmy.

Egads man, can you read?

[BoogyMan]

You kick yourself in the balls and then laugh...explains a lot.

Those were yours oh sadomasochistic one. :)

[Missileman]

Those were yours oh sadomasochistic one. :)

Go back and read it again. You acknowledged your accusation was baseless. :poke:

[BoogyMan]

Go back and read it again. You acknowledged your accusation was baseless. :poke:

No that is a tactic to get you to admit that your silly argument was baseless in comparison, but you can keep on deluding yourself. :lol:

[Missileman]

No that is a tactic to get you to admit that your silly argument was baseless in comparison, but you can keep on deluding yourself. :lol:

You might well be the world's worst tactician.

[BoogyMan]

You might well be the world's worst tactician.

LOL, spoken like someone whose faith has been exposed as an example of that which he constantly derides.

Enjoy the hypocrisy of your own position.

[Missileman]

LOL, spoken like someone whose faith has been exposed as an example of that which he constantly derides.

Enjoy the hypocrisy of your own position.

You've yet to demonstrate it.

[BoogyMan]

You've yet to demonstrate it.

You did that for me, quite loud and clear. Thanks! :thumb:

[Missileman]

You did that for me, quite loud and clear. Thanks! :thumb:

In which post are you claiming I did so?

[BoogyMan]

In which post are you claiming I did so?

Where you claim that you are not basing your belief on a faith. You won't admit it, most atheists never will - but they base their views on a belief.

Enjoy the delusion, MM.

[Noir]

Can we cut the wordplay crap and stick to the topic?
Normally I wouldn't mind but it takes a while to load the new replies page and then this page and I've done it serveral times tonight only to find you guys bickering about certain words eachother have used and making it more an argument about an argument rather than an argument about the topic, please.

[Missileman]

Where you claim that you are not basing your belief on a faith. You won't admit it, most atheists never will - but they base their views on a belief.

Enjoy the delusion, MM.

If your argument is all belief is faith, you're an idiot. Otherwise you are twisting what I wrote into something I didn't say...put up a post #.

[PostmodernProphet]

Well I guess that's alright if you can afford it.

But that does not address the problem, state schools are teaching what may of happened as stone cold fact. I happen to find that wrong, maybe you don't because it suits your beliefs to have what may of happened taught as fact. I would rather it is taught as something that may of happened, seems reasonable, no?

/shrugs....of course it seems reasonable to you.....it's indoctrination in what you find acceptable......I'm quite comfortable with the indoctrination they're already getting.....

[Noir]

/shrugs....of course it seems reasonable to you.....it's indoctrination in what you find acceptable......I'm quite comfortable with the indoctrination they're already getting.....

No sir, there is a difference, it would be wrong (and indoctrinating) if I was saying that it should be taught that there are no gods and that 'Jesus did not die for your sins' ect but I am nit saying that, I'm saying it should be taught that he "may" have.
How you can equate my acceptence of possibility to your 'they must be taught it as fact' I simply don't know.

[BoogyMan]

If your argument is all belief is faith, you're an idiot. Otherwise you are twisting what I wrote into something I didn't say...put up a post #.

I love the arrogance in the wake of exposing your hypocrisy on this point. Words have meanings and since you obliviously don't put much stock in that FACT that would tend to may YOU the idiot.



Link (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief)

be·lief   /bɪˈlif/ Show Spelled[bih-leef] Show IPA
–noun
1.something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2.confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3.confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4.a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

[Missileman]

I love the arrogance in the wake of exposing your hypocrisy on this point. Words have meanings and since you obliviously don't put much stock in that FACT that would tend to may YOU the idiot.

Why do you continue to avoid citing the post number where I made this alleged hypocritical statement?

[Missileman]

No sir, there is a difference, it would be wrong (and indoctrinating) if I was saying that it should be taught that there are no gods and that 'Jesus did not die for your sins' ect but I am nit saying that, I'm saying it should be taught that he "may" have.
How you can equate my acceptence of possibility to your 'they must be taught it as fact' I simply don't know.

Trying to teach kids a head-full of maybes would be totally useless.

[Noir]

Trying to teach kids a head-full of maybes would be totally useless.

Useless at what? Indoctrinating them? I agree, that's the point.

[BoogyMan]

Useless at what? Indoctrinating them? I agree, that's the point.

Where do you get off trying to regulate a religious school?

[BoogyMan]

Why do you continue to avoid citing the post number where I made this alleged hypocritical statement?

Because you chimed in with support for others who posted the comments instead of posting them yourself. It is a completely dishonest rhetorical device.

[Missileman]

Because you chimed in with support for others who posted the comments instead of posting them yourself. It is a completely dishonest rhetorical device.

In which post?

[BoogyMan]

In which post?

Egads, I will not play your idiotic game. :lame2:

[Missileman]

Egads, I will not play your idiotic game. :lame2:

I'm not playing a game. I've looked at my posts in this thread and find none where I chimed in in support of anyone.

[BoogyMan]

Useless at what? Indoctrinating them? I agree, that's the point.

So, Noir, are you going to answer by what authority you are determined to regulate a religious school?

[Noir]

So, Noir, are you going to answer by what authority you are determined to regulate a religious school?

Not sure what you mean by this but...

It is not a religious school as such, I have explained that more than fully within this topic.

And you regulate it by setting out work that is moderated like how you regulate everything that is taught in a state school. Simple, no?

And if you mean what authority do I have to raise the issue- it is a state school, I am a tax payer, thus I can make my views known to my representitive.

[PostmodernProphet]

No sir, there is a difference, it would be wrong (and indoctrinating) if I was saying that it should be taught that there are no gods and that 'Jesus did not die for your sins' ect but I am nit saying that, I'm saying it should be taught that he "may" have.
How you can equate my acceptence of possibility to your 'they must be taught it as fact' I simply don't know.

that you "simply don't know" is the indoctrination you want imposed.....compared to the "we believe" that the parents may have chosen....

[PostmodernProphet]

Not sure what you mean by this but...

It is not a religious school as such, I have explained that more than fully within this topic.

And you regulate it by setting out work that is moderated like how you regulate everything that is taught in a state school. Simple, no?

And if you mean what authority do I have to raise the issue- it is a state school, I am a tax payer, thus I can make my views known to my representitive.

but you live in a state which has publicly funded religious schools....it is, in fact, a religious school......

[Noir]

that you "simply don't know" is the indoctrination you want imposed.....compared to the "we believe" that the parents may have chosen....

...but we don't know, that's the point. It's taught as if we do know when we don't.

[Noir]

but you live in a state which has publicly funded religious schools....it is, in fact, a religious school......

No it's not, I've explained the difference to you, I wish I hadn't bothered to mention it now because you guys simple don't (intentionaly nor not I don't know) understand the situation over here.

[Missileman]

Useless at what? Indoctrinating them? I agree, that's the point.

No, useless in trying to stuff their melons with a pile of maybes as you've suggested.

[Noir]

No, useless in trying to stuff their melons with a pile of maybes as you've suggested.

Well if you don't want to teach them reality, i.e. maybes, then you must lie and tell them there definatly are gods or defintitly are not. Neither of which apeal to me in the slightest.

[BoogyMan]

Not sure what you mean by this but...

It is not a religious school as such, I have explained that more than fully within this topic.

And you regulate it by setting out work that is moderated like how you regulate everything that is taught in a state school. Simple, no?

And if you mean what authority do I have to raise the issue- it is a state school, I am a tax payer, thus I can make my views known to my representitive.

You pretty much stated all schools in your area are religious in this post (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=418099&postcount=25).

If it is a religiously oriented school, you need to sit and spin because you have no right to define their curriculum.

[Noir]

You pretty much stated all schools in your area are religious in this post (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=418099&postcount=25).

If it is a religiously oriented school, you need to sit and spin because you have no right to define their curriculum.

If you read the post you will have seen the words " they are not specificly religious schools" I don't know how much clearer I can make it, they are NOT religious schools, however, it is termed as a certain religion (as are ALL Northern Irish schools) in order that unionists and nationalists can send their children to different schools.

These are STATE schools, PUBLICLY funded are are not in any way specificly religious. I have every right to make my voice heard for the little good it will do.

[BoogyMan]

If you read the post you will have seen the words " they are not specificly religious schools" I don't know how much clearer I can make it, they are NOT religious schools, however, it is termed as a certain religion (as are ALL Northern Irish schools) in order that unionists and nationalists can send their children to different schools.

These are STATE schools, PUBLICLY funded are are not in any way specificly religious. I have every right to make my voice heard for the little good it will do.

Are these schools in England? If so you have a state religion as well, does that mean that you get to change the doctrines of the church? I don't think so.

Sounds like someone needs to separate the religion from the school.

[Noir]

Are these schools in England? If so you have a state religion as well, does that mean that you get to change the doctrines of the church? I don't think so.

Sounds like someone needs to separate the religion from the school.

I honestly despair...have you bothered to read my posts at all? Why do you think I keep talking about the Northern Ireland? I can't imagin what you think I'm talking about with unionists and nationalists when you think I live in England =/

I just incase the penny still hasn't dropped, I'll state is clearly for you I (and my wee brother) live in Northern Ireland.

And as a side point- the fact that we have a state religion is one of the few things that makes me disapointed to be British. And the secular securities in the American constitution are often over looked but vital IMO. it is quite weirdly ironic though, that America has ended up so religious when Britian is not.

[BoogyMan]

I honestly despair...have you bothered to read my posts at all? Why do you think I keep talking about the Northern Ireland? I can't imagin what you think I'm talking about with unionists and nationalists when you think I live in England =/

I am asking because I wanted to be sure and I am well aware of the fact that Ireland has a state religion as well. It isn't my choosing, but that is how it is.



I just incase the penny still hasn't dropped, I'll state is clearly for you I (and my wee brother) live in Northern Ireland.

And as a side point- the fact that we have a state religion is one of the few things that makes me disapointed to be British. And the secular securities in the American constitution are often over looked but vital IMO. it is quite weirdly ironic though, that America has ended up so religious when Britian is not.

If the school wears the name of a religion, something I have been clear about not finding in the Bible, you should leave it be. If it does not, you may have somewhere to stand.

Would you demand that your views be imposed on your state religion? Since there IS a state religion, I am thinking you really have no argument about a state school (which wears a religious title) teaching religion.

[Nukeman]

let me see if I can help here Noir. Northern Ireland is still very divided in the Protestant/Catholic sense. If one claims to be one or the other you will socialize and interact with those of your religion. Even though the schools are NOT a religious school they are divided as to what students are attending those schools.

In other words a school with mostly Protestants would be a "Protestant school" and a school with mostly Catholics wold be a "Catholic" school. This would also include the teaching staff.

So although the schools are public in funding they still have an element of the religious in the teaching due to the fact that almost everyone attending, is of the same religion and church...

The problem I see for you Noir is that you are an atheist is a VERY religious country. Be it Protestant, Catholic, druid, or any other for of religion. Your country is by and large very religious and it manifest itself not only in the schools but your government as well...

[Noir]

I am asking because I wanted to be sure and I am well aware of the fact that Ireland has a state religion as well. It isn't my choosing, but that is how it is.

Well I don't know what Irelands system is, but fair enough.


If the school wears the name of a religion, something I have been clear about not finding in the Bible, you should leave it be. If it does not, you may have somewhere to stand.

Would you demand that your views be imposed on your state religion? Since there IS a state religion, I am thinking you really have no argument about a state school (which wears a religious title) teaching religion.

The school does not wear any 'name of religion' it's just a normal school.

And I would answer the 2nd point in another topic, as it is a different issue, of If parents have the right to force there children into a religion. While I do t want to go into details in this thread, I will answer with a simple no, I don't think parents have that right.

[Noir]

let me see if I can help here Noir. Northern Ireland is still very divided in the Protestant/Catholic sense. If one claims to be one or the other you will socialize and interact with those of your religion. Even though the schools are NOT a religious school they are divided as to what students are attending those schools.

In other words a school with mostly Protestants would be a "Protestant school" and a school with mostly Catholics wold be a "Catholic" school. This would also include the teaching staff.

So although the schools are public in funding they still have an element of the religious in the teaching due to the fact that almost everyone attending, is of the same religion and church...

The problem I see for you Noir is that you are an atheist is a VERY religious country. Be it Protestant, Catholic, druid, or any other for of religion. Your country is by and large very religious and it manifest itself not only in the schools but your government as well...

Pretty much, the words Protestant and Catholic could easily be swaped for Unionist and Nationalist and nothing would change.

Just as a way to show what exactly it means, you all know what I think of religion, and yet when in Northern Ireland I would still refer to myself as a Protestant, becuase that's just the way things are. The problem is that when people don't understand they can get completey the wrong idea. As has happened in this thread.

[Nukeman]

Pretty much, the words Protestant and Catholic could easily be swaped for Unionist and Nationalist and nothing would change.

Just as a way to show what exactly it means, you all know what I think of religion, and yet when in Northern Ireland I would still refer to myself as a Protestant, becuase that's just the way things are. The problem is that when people don't understand they can get completey the wrong idea. As has happened in this thread.

Oh I agree completely, I do believe some are arguing when they full well understand what you meant and if they said otherwise they are just being disingenuous

[HogTrash]

Well any athiest that says they know there is no god for a fact is just as bad. No one can know.

At the very least I would want these books to contain phases such as "Jesus may of risen from the dead after three days"

Would you not agree?How absolutely rediculous.....'Faith' is the basic premise of religion.

No religious person would ever discuss their religion as if it was a theory.

[Noir]

How absolutely rediculous.....'Faith' is the basic premise of religion.

No religious person would ever discuss their religion as if it was a theory.

Is it a fact that Jesus is the Son of God?
No, it's not. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
The only fact is that no one knows.
Thus if people want religion to be taught then they must accept, as atiests do, that no one knows,

There are three ways you can aproch this, either you must teach:

a) That all religions are wrong,
b) Pick one religion and claim it is right (and thus all others are wrong)
c) Refer to all religions discussed in a way that clearly expresses how they may be right or wrong and that we don't know.

Personally I see C as the only viable option, as A and B both require lying by claiming something as fact when you do not know if it is so.

[PostmodernProphet]

Is it a fact that Jesus is the Son of God?
No, it's not. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.


well, obviously it's either a fact that he is or a fact that he isn't, whether or not someone knows it. It is illogical to say "No" and "Maybe" at the same time....just as it was a fact that the earth rotated around the sun before anyone was aware of it.

[PostmodernProphet]

a) That all religions are wrong,
b) Pick one religion and claim it is right (and thus all others are wrong)
c) Refer to all religions discussed in a way that clearly expresses how they may be right or wrong and that we don't know.

Personally I see C as the only viable option, as A and B both require lying by claiming something as fact when you do not know if it is so.

your error is in misrepresnting b).....we are simply saying that we have chosen to believe our religion is right and all others are wrong.....which is the same thing all religions state.....you've done exactly the same thing in this same post when you said

Is it a fact that Jesus is the Son of God?
No, it's not. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.

you've asserted that it is not a fact while admitting maybe he is.....how is that different than saying you are right and we are wrong?.....

[HogTrash]

Is it a fact that Jesus is the Son of God?
No, it's not. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
The only fact is that no one knows.
Thus if people want religion to be taught then they must accept, as atiests do, that no one knows,

There are three ways you can aproch this, either you must teach:

a) That all religions are wrong,
b) Pick one religion and claim it is right (and thus all others are wrong)
c) Refer to all religions discussed in a way that clearly expresses how they may be right or wrong and that we don't know.

Personally I see C as the only viable option, as A and B both require lying by claiming something as fact when you do not know if it is so.Do you really want a teacher telling children that the church where they worship their God and the religion that is taught and practiced in their homes by their families, might be wrong?

Do you really believe a teacher would be able to keep his personal beliefs out of his teachings on this subject?...Would you be able to not emphasize your atheist beliefs?

d] 'Religion 101' should simply consist of discussing the basics of each religion without attempting to prove or disprove any of them, to prevent embarrassing the students or offending their parents.

You make way to big a deal out of "God" Noir...Most modern day religions do much more good than bad, especially the one you hate the most, Christianity...Give it a break!

[Noir]

well, obviously it's either a fact that he is or a fact that he isn't, whether or not someone knows it. It is illogical to say "No" and "Maybe" at the same time....just as it was a fact that the earth rotated around the sun before anyone was aware of it.


I do not say "no" I say "probably not" which is just a personal variation on "maybe".
Sure it's a fact if he is or isn't, but as we don't know it is wrong to teach it as a fact either way.

[Noir]

your error is in misrepresnting b).....we are simply saying that we have chosen to believe our religion is right and all others are wrong.....which is the same thing all religions state.....you've done exactly the same thing in this same post when you said

you've asserted that it is not a fact while admitting maybe he is.....how is that different than saying you are right and we are wrong?.....

Believe what you want, but don't enforce your beliefs as facts.
It's simple.
I say that it is a fact that we do not know. That is totally different to saying he is or is not the Son of God for a fact. Surly you can see the difference, no?

[Noir]

Do you really want a teacher telling children that the church where they worship their God and the religion that is taught and practiced in their homes by their families, might be wrong?

Do you really believe a teacher would be able to keep his personal beliefs out of his teachings on this subject?...Would you be able to not emphasize your atheist beliefs?

d] 'Religion 101' should simply consist of discussing the basics of each religion without attempting to prove or disprove any of them, to prevent embarrassing the students or offending their parents.

You make way to big a deal out of "God" Noir...Most modern day religions do much more good than bad, especially the one you hate the most, Christianity...Give it a break!

Erm, your option D is pretty much exactly what I want, any religions that are discussed are not taught as fact or dismissed as fact, but accepted as maybes.

[HogTrash]

Erm, your option D is pretty much exactly what I want, any religions that are discussed are not taught as fact or dismissed as fact, but accepted as maybes.What you and your side exactly want is to rid the world of religion...Let me tell you how that will either succeed or fail.

If the marxist ever realize their dream of world domination, religion will be no more and then you will have 'exactly what you want'.

If the good people of the world are able to expose and defeat marxism for the evil it presents, you will have to learn to live with religion.

[Noir]

What you and your side exactly want is to rid the world of religion...Let me tell you how that will either succeed or fail.

If the marxist ever realize their dream of world domination, religion will be no more and then you will have 'exactly what you want'.

If the good people of the world are able to expose and defeat marxism for the evil it presents, you will have to learn to live with religion.

The post above is nothing but an attempt at insulting me with terms like 'marxist' 'intolerent' and 'your side' ect ect, it is a sorry sight to see a grown man reduce himself to such schoolboy tactics, but that's your choice I guess.

All I'm saying is I do not want non-facts to be taught as facts. Your option D fits that perfectly,

Do you want non-facts taught as facts?

[PostmodernProphet]

I do not say "no" I say "probably not" which is just a personal variation on "maybe".
Sure it's a fact if he is or isn't, but as we don't know it is wrong to teach it as a fact either way.

?????....what was this then?....

No, it's not.

you sure fooled me into thinking you had said "No".......

[PostmodernProphet]

but don't enforce your beliefs as facts.

???....what is "enforcing" a belief.....do I have to say I believe it, but I don't really believe it's a "fact"....lol.....I guess you're willing to allow me to believe it, so long as I'm wishy-washy about my beliefs?......

[PostmodernProphet]

Do you want non-facts taught as facts?

actually, I want my kids to grow up knowing I believe it to be 100%, iron-clad truth....and that what you believe is a falsity that will destroy their only chance for eternal happiness.....(I'm not into wishy-washy)....

[Noir]

?????....what was this then?....

you sure fooled me into thinking you had said "No".......

The full quote is

"Is it a fact that Jesus is the Son of God?
No, it's not. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
The only fact is that no one knows."

The "No it's not" is in reference to the fact that we do not know for a fact that he is, in the same way I could of easily said the following

'Is it a fact that Jesus is not the Son of God?
No, it's not. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
The only fact is that no one knows.'

To misunderstand what I am trying to say there seems a bit of proactive misunderstanding on your part, given in every post about this topic I say that Jesus may be the son of god ect, and that is how it should be taught.

[Noir]

???....what is "enforcing" a belief.....do I have to say I believe it, but I don't really believe it's a "fact"....lol.....I guess you're willing to allow me to believe it, so long as I'm wishy-washy about my beliefs?......

What I mean is you can believe whatever you like, if you want go off and believe in Ra and Maan, however, do not have your beliefs taught as fact in the classroom to 5 year olds who know no different. If they are going to be taught religion, then make it known to then that there are no facts, only beliefs of facts. Jesus may have risen from the dead, You may be reborn as a slug, you may only pass from this world when you achieve enlightenment ect ect, I don't care for the religion or whatever it teaches will happen during your life or after it, it should be taught as a 'may' because we simply don't know.

[Noir]

actually, I want my kids to grow up knowing I believe it to be 100%, iron-clad truth....and that what you believe is a falsity that will destroy their only chance for eternal happiness.....(I'm not into wishy-washy)....

Well there you have it, as an atheist I am often accused of being intolerent or pushing my agenda into other people lives ect, and yet here I am saying that children if introduced to a religion should be taught that it may be true, or it may not. You on the other hand, the passive, gentle, meek and mild Christian, want your beliefs forced onto the children so they believe it as "100%, Iron clad truth"

I can only imagine what replies I would get if I stated in a thread that my beliefs should be forced on children, as you just have, and yet how many people here will post that you are being intolerent, or interfering in others lives? The hypocrisy of it all is enough to make you sick, and either you can't see it, or you don't want to.

[PostmodernProphet]

The full quote is

"Is it a fact that Jesus is the Son of God?
No, it's not. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
The only fact is that no one knows."

The "No it's not" is in reference to the fact that we do not know for a fact that he is, in the same way I could of easily said the following

'Is it a fact that Jesus is not the Son of God?
No, it's not. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
The only fact is that no one knows.'

To misunderstand what I am trying to say there seems a bit of proactive misunderstanding on your part, given in every post about this topic I say that Jesus may be the son of god ect, and that is how it should be taught.

???....if there is any misunderstanding, it is you, misunderstanding your own mind......it is inherently illogical to say simultaneously, "No" and "maybe"....the fact that you don't understand that is what I consider to be the underlying il-logic that fuels atheism.....the fact you do it so easily is why I have always said I wouldn't want an atheist to be in a position of authority.....they simply aren't smart enough to handle it..........

[PostmodernProphet]

If they are going to be taught religion, then make it known to then that there are no facts, only beliefs of facts. Jesus may have risen from the dead, You may be reborn as a slug, you may only pass from this world when you achieve enlightenment ect ect, I don't care for the religion or whatever it teaches will happen during your life or after it, it should be taught as a 'may' because we simply don't know.
then there would be absolutely no reason to teach them.......it would be foolish to say you believe something if you didn't actually believe it........and if you did actually believe it, it would be foolish to teach something other than what you believed.......

[PostmodernProphet]

You on the other hand, the passive, gentle, meek and mild Christian, want your beliefs forced onto the children so they believe it as "100%, Iron clad truth"


that pretty much covers it.....I don't want them growing up wishy-washy either......

[Noir]

???....if there is any misunderstanding, it is you, misunderstanding your own mind......it is inherently illogical to say simultaneously, "No" and "maybe"....the fact that you don't understand that is what I consider to be the underlying il-logic that fuels atheism.....the fact you do it so easily is why I have always said I wouldn't want an atheist to be in a position of authority.....they simply aren't smart enough to handle it..........

You really are trying to force this 'no' 'maybe' business.


I do not know if Jesus is the Son of God, nor do you.
Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.

What I'm saying is I do not think that children should be taught either that he is or is not, but instead should be taught that he may be.

What you are saying is that it should be taught as if it were a fact because you believe it to be true.

[Noir]

then there would be absolutely no reason to teach them.......it would be foolish to say you believe something if you didn't actually believe it........and if you did actually believe it, it would be foolish to teach something other than what you believed.......

But just because you believe something does not make it fact, and thus to teach it as fact is misleading.

Also, if one of your childrens teachers was an atheist, would that give them the right to teach children that there is no God? I do not think so, but following your logic of 'you must teach what you believe because you believe it' surly you must...

[PostmodernProphet]

You really are trying to force this 'no' 'maybe' business.



well yes....I been posting about it for years.....it's what makes atheists illogical.....they can't see the contradiction between saying "no" and "maybe" simultaneously.....I think of it as an inherent character flaw......

[PostmodernProphet]

What I'm saying is I do not think that children should be taught either that he is or is not, but instead should be taught that he may be.
.

no you weren't......you were saying it wasn't true.....now maybe it's just a freudian slip....but if so, you really need to work it out with freud, since you're still denying it......

[PostmodernProphet]

But just because you believe something does not make it fact, and thus to teach it as fact is misleading.

Also, if one of your childrens teachers was an atheist, would that give them the right to teach children that there is no God? I do not think so, but following your logic of 'you must teach what you believe because you believe it' surly you must...

of course not....I would remove them from the school and enroll them in a private Christian school before letting them be taught by an atheist....if you were actually following my logic you would have known I would never leave my children in the hands of an atheist.....

[Noir]

well yes....I been posting about it for years.....it's what makes atheists illogical.....they can't see the contradiction between saying "no" and "maybe" simultaneously.....I think of it as an inherent character flaw......

There is nothing illogical about it. I do not think that there are any gods, however, I accept that I may be wrong.
Simple.
Can you accept that you may be wrong?

[Noir]

no you weren't......you were saying it wasn't true.....now maybe it's just a freudian slip....but if so, you really need to work it out with freud, since you're still denying it......

If you look back through this thread I have made it clear a dozen times that my problem from the OP is that something is being taught as fact when it is not a known fact. And thus all religions should of been taught as possibily correct. Especially in a state school.

[Noir]

of course not....I would remove them from the school and enroll them in a private Christian school before letting them be taught by an atheist....if you were actually following my logic you would have known I would never leave my children in the hands of an atheist.....

Tolerence at it's finest
/sark.

[PostmodernProphet]

There is nothing illogical about it.

how can it NOT be illogical to say "no" and "maybe" simultaneously......

[PostmodernProphet]

Tolerence at it's finest
/sark.

why would I tolerate someone teaching my children to believe something I don't believe?.....if I'm not mistaken this thread commenced because you object to the exact same thing.....the teaching of children something that you didn't believe.....and those weren't even YOUR children.....

[Noir]

how can it NOT be illogical to say "no" and "maybe" simultaneously......

Because they are answers to two very different questions

Do I believe there are any Gods?- No, I do not.

Do I know there are no Gods?- No, and thus all Gods are 'maybes'.

[Noir]

why would I tolerate someone teaching my children to believe something I don't believe?.....if I'm not mistaken this thread commenced because you object to the exact same thing.....the teaching of children something that you didn't believe.....and those weren't even YOUR children.....


I do not want them to to be taught what I believe, as I believe there are no gods.
I want them to be taught the facts, and the fact about Gods is we do not know which (if any) is the real God/s/ess/esses and thus any that are discussed must be discussed as 'maybes'.

[PostmodernProphet]

Because they are answers to two very different questions



wtf, dude....no they weren't.....you used them both in the same paragraph, adjacent sentences, referring to the exact same concept.....

Is it a fact that Jesus is the Son of God?
No, it's not. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
how on earth do you claim two different questions?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I do not want them to to be taught what I believe, as I believe there are no gods.
I want them to be taught the facts, and the fact about Gods is we do not know which (if any) is the real God/s/ess/esses and thus any that are discussed must be discussed as 'maybes'.

what you believe is that it isn't fact.....you want them to be taught that it isn't fact.....I believe it is fact, I want them to be taught it is fact......if it's my kids, I win.....if it's your kids, you win....if it's someone else's kids, stfu......

[Noir]

wtf, dude....no they weren't.....you used them both in the same paragraph, adjacent sentences, referring to the exact same concept.....

how on earth do you claim two different questions?.....

Erm...i really don't see what you find wrong with what I said.


Is it a fact that Jesus is the Son of God?
No, it's not. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.

Let me re-write those sentences more fully, to try am clear up any confussion...

'Is it a fact that Jesus is the Son of God?
No, it's not known fact that Jesus is the son of God. Therefore as far as I am concerned, Maybe he is the son of god, or maybe he isn't. I believe he Is not, you believe he is, however, I would think it wrong for 5 year olds to be taught either way, so they should be taught that he may be the son of god'

...I don't know if I cam make my position any more clear than that.

[Noir]

what you believe is that it isn't fact.....you want them to be taught that it isn't fact.....I believe it is fact, I want them to be taught it is fact......if it's my kids, I win.....if it's your kids, you win....if it's someone else's kids, stfu......

So how do you apply that at a state school level, of a class of 30 you want each one to be given work that is first cleared with each ones parents, and what happens when the teacher talks to a class as a while?
What if a few Jewish parent wants it taught their way, and Islamic parents their way and so forth?
At home, do as you please. In a state school situation, no religion should be taught as fact.

[PostmodernProphet]

Erm...i really don't see what you find wrong with what I said.

yes....I know.....that's what's so amusing.....



Let me re-write those sentences more fully, to try am clear up any confussion...

'Is it a fact that Jesus is the Son of God?
No, it's not known fact that Jesus is the son of God. Therefore as far as I am concerned, Maybe he is the son of god, or maybe he isn't. I believe he Is not, you believe he is, however, I would think it wrong for 5 year olds to be taught either way, so they should be taught that he may be the son of god'

...I don't know if I cam make my position any more clear than that.

lol...."rewrite".....you mean backtrack?.....ah, now it's "known" fact?.....come on.....freudian slip is one thing, but you reinforced it a half dozen times already before you changed it.......this is why atheists fail.......they don't recognize that saying "it's not true" contradicts saying "I don't know if it's true or not"......I realize it's your faith statement, I can live with that.....but at least recognize the inherent irrationality behind it......

[PostmodernProphet]

So how do you apply that at a state school level, of a class of 30 you want each one to be given work that is first cleared with each ones parents, and what happens when the teacher talks to a class as a while?
What if a few Jewish parent wants it taught their way, and Islamic parents their way and so forth?
At home, do as you please. In a state school situation, no religion should be taught as fact.

and in the US it isn't....but you're talking about the British system and obviously there, it should be....there you have state run religion......

[Noir]

yes....I know.....that's what's so amusing.....



lol...."rewrite".....you mean backtrack?.....ah, now it's "known" fact?.....come on.....freudian slip is one thing, but you reinforced it a half dozen times already before you changed it.......this is why atheists fail.......they don't recognize that saying "it's not true" contradicts saying "I don't know if it's true or not"......I realize it's your faith statement, I can live with that.....but at least recognize the inherent irrationality behind it......


Dear blesses, I have made clear what I mean two dozen times.

I do not believe that Jesus is the son of god. However he may be.

In the same way that you do believe he is the son of god, but must accept that he may not be.

Because no one knows. In this way you must say 'Yes and maybe' where I say 'no and maybe' Unless you claim to have knowledge that you can not possibly possess.

[Noir]

and in the US it isn't....but you're talking about the British system and obviously there, it should be....there you have state run religion......

Well I'm doing my bit to try an seperate chruch from state, something I admire in the American system.

[Missileman]

Dear blesses, I have made clear what I mean two dozen times.

I do not believe that Jesus is the son of god. However he may be.

In the same way that you do believe he is the son of god, but must accept that he may not be.

Because no one knows. In this way you must say 'Yes and maybe' where I say 'no and maybe' Unless you claim to have knowledge that you can not possibly possess.

Grow a set or call yourself an agnostic...really.

There is no god.

[Noir]

Grow a set or call yourself an agnostic...really.

There is no god.

No.

Atheists believe there is no God. As I do.

However, just because I do not believe in a god, like you, does not make it so.

Ergo you are wrong to say "There is no God"

[PostmodernProphet]

Dear blesses, I have made clear what I mean two dozen times.

I do not believe that Jesus is the son of god. However he may be.

In the same way that you do believe he is the son of god, but must accept that he may not be.

Because no one knows. In this way you must say 'Yes and maybe' where I say 'no and maybe' Unless you claim to have knowledge that you can not possibly possess.

but I don't say "yes" and "maybe"....if I thought "maybe" I wouldn't call myself a believer.....either I believe or I don't believe.....

[PostmodernProphet]

No.

Atheists believe there is no God. As I do.

However, just because I do not believe in a god, like you, does not make it so.

Ergo you are wrong to say "There is no God"

I agree with Miss.....if you're going to throw in a "maybe" don't call yourself an atheist.....just as I wouldn't call myself a Christian if I was going to throw in a maybe.....

[Missileman]

No.

Atheists believe there is no God. As I do.

However, just because I do not believe in a god, like you, does not make it so.

Ergo you are wrong to say "There is no God"

I'm not wrong until I'm proven wrong.

[Abbey Marie]

Public.

I thought I had heard that in the UK, when it came to schools, public meant private?