Communism - serving God's purpose.

[darin]

My father and his wife were over for dinner Saturday evening. As the conversation drifted to his wife's childhood, growing up in Izhevsk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izhevsk), Russia, my father made a point I found very interesting. His point, in essence, was this: Communism was very good at protecting people from things which could hurt them, morally.

We could go on for hours about the 'evils' of communism; how Godless and cold and defeating the system of government can be for one's soul. Yet, it's BECAUSE of the very hard times faced by it's citizens, that so MANY I've met had had such strength in character. It seems, after immigrating to the US, the first generation retains the lessons-learned under communism/oppression. But the further the family gets from the date of immigration, the 'worse' the family does in the areas of morality.

I've met hundreds - perhaps thousands - of former USSR residents. I'd speculate my impressions of them, regardless of their claiming knowledge of Jesus, left me feeling they were more Christ-like in their DEEDS than many of today's "church superstars".

As my Step-mother told stories of sneaking listens to 'rock n roll' as she tried to pick up a weak signal from Radio Free Europe? (maybe?) she'd appreciate the break from the Classical music which was the standard. She longed for freedoms of the West, yet somehow, without growing up particularly religious, she developed standards and morality very close to Christian ideals.

I remember when she first got to the USA she commented to me once about how sick she felt over the Over-sexualization in our media, and in our lives. She commented negatively about the lack of personal respect we show by encouraging such exploitations of our biology. She was quick to respond to the Spirit when she arrived in the states - and now I somebody I consider to have a heart to serve Christ.

What is it about living in such an environment which points people (whether they know it or not) towards Godly mindsets? Could God have been building up in the USSR a Body of believers to influence the rest of the world?

It's funny, and a bit sad, however, at the OTHER side of the population of immigrants, who do in clear-conscious what most would consider unethical. For instance: My father runs a tax business. He did taxes for a Pastor of a local primarily-immigrant church in the area. A few weeks later, trying to get a home loan, the Pastor called and asked my Dad to give a statement to the lender saying the Pastor ran a landscaping service, and give a 'fictional' income generated from the service. My Dad said "I'm NOT going to lie for you, because I have NO knowledge of this other business." A Pastor. To the pastor, he was simply finding a way around the system by calling in a favor. I wonder if the pastor had any convictions over the request?

Anywho - I guess this thread is designed to stimulate discussion amongst believers primarily, on the subject of "Apparent Godlessness could lead to Godliness"...or something. Or whatever. And Junk.

Thoughts?

[-Cp]

Not surprising to me... God has always had a knack for using difficult times to shape people....

[Hobbit]

The church is always strongest in times of oppression. This doesn't surprise me at all.

[Nienna]

EXCELLENT book--- The Heavenly Man, the story of Chinese Christian Brother Yun (written with Paul Hattaway). It tells the story of the Chinese House Church movement from this man's (and his wife's) perspective. It shows how the Church grows because, when Christians are persecuted in one place, they flee to another, thus spreading the Gospel. Also, persecution and hardship make believers lean on God, and are an enormous witness. Others look at what the persecuted endure for the sake of their faith, and it makes them wonder what about that faith makes it WORTH the sacrifice?

I think when a populace is oppressed, it makes people long for a just authority, exactly what God provides. :)

[Kathianne]

The church is always strongest in times of oppression. This doesn't surprise me at all.

Funny that you say that. My mom used to tell me, "You'll never know what you really believe, until it's challenged."

You are both right.

[avatar4321]

Funny that you say that. My mom used to tell me, "You'll never know what you really believe, until it's challenged."

You are both right.

That is exactly why those religions that challenge cultural normals are the ones that grow the fastest. it seems counter intuitive but friction makes the faithful hold closer to their faith.

[Yurt]

I don't think communism in and of itself brought this work on, it may have been the lid on the jar that caused the spark to realize that it must flare up, flare up to survive. In the case of communism, the lid was eventually lifted. Permanently, we cannot say.

God uses people in all times. Now that the bible is out in the open, fully, Satan will accuse us of having no excuse. For when it was hidden (some argue the "dark" ages) we might have an excuse, for we are judged according to the light received. I argue, however, that overwhelming information, is just that, overwhelming. While the bible may be in the open, there are vast counter books/movies/news/etc to distract us.

In all times, God can work. Of this I have no doubt. The "information age" is predicted in the bible. There will be "adversity" (akin to that which help your relatives) enough to allow God to work his will. Adversity is not only a government controlling your religion/life.

IMHO

[Abbey Marie]

Paraphrasing: If the people did not worship Him, the very rocks would cry out...

We are simply compelled.

[eighballsidepocket]

My father and his wife were over for dinner Saturday evening. As the conversation drifted to his wife's childhood, growing up in Izhevsk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izhevsk), Russia, my father made a point I found very interesting. His point, in essence, was this: Communism was very good at protecting people from things which could hurt them, morally.

We could go on for hours about the 'evils' of communism; how Godless and cold and defeating the system of government can be for one's soul. Yet, it's BECAUSE of the very hard times faced by it's citizens, that so MANY I've met had had such strength in character. It seems, after immigrating to the US, the first generation retains the lessons-learned under communism/oppression. But the further the family gets from the date of immigration, the 'worse' the family does in the areas of morality.

I've met hundreds - perhaps thousands - of former USSR residents. I'd speculate my impressions of them, regardless of their claiming knowledge of Jesus, left me feeling they were more Christ-like in their DEEDS than many of today's "church superstars".

As my Step-mother told stories of sneaking listens to 'rock n roll' as she tried to pick up a weak signal from Radio Free Europe? (maybe?) she'd appreciate the break from the Classical music which was the standard. She longed for freedoms of the West, yet somehow, without growing up particularly religious, she developed standards and morality very close to Christian ideals.

I remember when she first got to the USA she commented to me once about how sick she felt over the Over-sexualization in our media, and in our lives. She commented negatively about the lack of personal respect we show by encouraging such exploitations of our biology. She was quick to respond to the Spirit when she arrived in the states - and now I somebody I consider to have a heart to serve Christ.

What is it about living in such an environment which points people (whether they know it or not) towards Godly mindsets? Could God have been building up in the USSR a Body of believers to influence the rest of the world?

It's funny, and a bit sad, however, at the OTHER side of the population of immigrants, who do in clear-conscious what most would consider unethical. For instance: My father runs a tax business. He did taxes for a Pastor of a local primarily-immigrant church in the area. A few weeks later, trying to get a home loan, the Pastor called and asked my Dad to give a statement to the lender saying the Pastor ran a landscaping service, and give a 'fictional' income generated from the service. My Dad said "I'm NOT going to lie for you, because I have NO knowledge of this other business." A Pastor. To the pastor, he was simply finding a way around the system by calling in a favor. I wonder if the pastor had any convictions over the request?

Anywho - I guess this thread is designed to stimulate discussion amongst believers primarily, on the subject of "Apparent Godlessness could lead to Godliness"...or something. Or whatever. And Junk.

Thoughts?

What really sprung out at me in your post, though I found your whole essay excellent, was the part about the Pastor trying to cheat on paying his legally owed taxes to the gov.

Your father followed or responded to that Pastor in a very Christlike manner, and I know you must be so proud of your parents for that and many other instances where they stuck to their integrity.

Currently I'm involved in a bible study that is covering the book of Romans over a 9 month period. As I don't have my bible in front of me, I will not quote chapter and verse, but Paul, the author of Romans, extensively writes to the Roman Christians how important it is to remember that God establishes all the governments of the world, and also brings them down too. Paul wasn't saying or giving Carte Blanc excuse to these governments to violate God's moral, ethical commands, but was actually trying to show these Roman Christians that governments are used as God's instruments for punishment of evil doers, and also provide protection, to the populous. Taxes do provide to us nowadays, 911 emergency services, police, fire fighters, sewers, social services for the elderly as well as the young, health protection from pandemis via the CDC, the armed forces, i.e. Army National Guard, Coast Guard, Army, Marines, Navy, Air force, a missle shied from foreign missle attack.......etc. and on and on...

Drifting off of Romans to one of the 4 gospels, and again I can't remember if it was Matthew, Mar, Luke or John, but Jesus was confronted by some wise-guy antigonistic folks that thought they could "trip up" Jesus with a tax question. Apparently there was some Roman taxes to be paid where they were at, and these antagonizers asked Jesus if it was right to pay the taxes to the Romans. Jesus had one of them give Him a coin. He asked them whose picture was on the coin. The told Him/Jesus that it was Caesar's likeness. Jesus then said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's." Basically Jesus was able to answer these folks in a way that was very astute, honest, forthright, and sensible. These folks intentioned to try to get Jesus to look as though He was either pro-occupier(Roman sympathizer) or an anti Roman zealot. Either way their intention was to trap Him in a way to find cause either by their people (Jews) or the Romans to nullify His influence by arrest or some other public refutation of His character.
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Sadly, your father's experience with that Pastor was a serious indictment upon so many who claim to be Christians. If your Dad wasn't a Christian at the time, this Pastor's actions could have been negatively-detrimental towards your father's interest in Christianity, and might cause a person who isn't a Christian to completely reject the possiblity of embracing the "faith".

As much as us Christians get "hammered" by the non-Christian media, and the non-Christian lay-elements of the world, the attacks or scrutiny upon us does means something important. Even though these people often vocally or in written word express that they abhor our beliefs and our faith, why do they go out of their way to single us out when we stumble in the moral/ethical realm?

In fact the pastors of the world that have been publically exposed for immoral behaviour, and unethical behaviour, and seem to make headlines greater than Clinton's oval office escapades tells us that our lives and testimonies are being watched. That is good!

Folks don't give a "hoot" when an evil man sins, but an avowed righteous, or considered holy man/woman stumbles or sins and it is big news. Why? We are being watched because there is something about our lives as Christians that flies in the face of non-Christian man/woman's take on life, and it's priorities. A Christ abiding Christian most likely doesn't make a habit of strip clubs, getting drunk, delving into Porno, amassing wealth to the point of overkill, giving a pass to sin in general, yet seems to be at peace and happy just the same. This just doesn't compute to the non-Christian. That's because they (Non Christians) find their peace or identity in "things" and temporary and fleeting relationships, and of course what the world can offer them to enhance their prestige, wealth, security, etc.. The abiding Christian finds peace in a relationship with not the world's provisions but a higher plain, that of the One that Created the world itself with it's many offerings. Christians don't abhor the provisions of the world; as money, belongings, food, shelter, are necessary parts of earthly life. The difference is that Christians don't see these "things" as the "end all" or the goal. If one sees physical death one day as the end of all reality and existence, then the world must provide and be everything, but the Christian has leaped that plain of temporal earthly existence, and knows that physical death is just a gateway to a continued eternal existence that will progress to a greater reality of their relationship with their Creator, and total provision for their every need.
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Your essay was great. My Swedish Grandparents all came through Ellis Island in the 1800's, and I know of one of them having a strong Christian faith. The others I just didn't know much about in that area, as my dad's parents (1920's) died before I was born, and my father was orphaned, but never adopted.

I do know however that these 4 folks came to America with ethical/moral upbringing and were strong in that area of their lives. I've often wondered if my grandmother on my Mom's side wasn't praying for me when I was a little tyke. She died when I was in Juniour high school. I would have loved to have talked with her about her faith, but at that time in my life, I was very young and wasn't literate of the Christian faith. My parents (first generation Americans) fought the good fight of surviving the depression and didn't seem to find much interest in Christian topics, yet lived morally and ethically because of their Christian parent's influence, no doubt.

I totally agree that as each generation happens it seems that those values or faith seems to often dwindle down to very little.

Sometimes I think that God does let our non-Christian lives drop into a mucky pit of despair so that we might finally realize how naked, and weak, we really are without embracing dependence in our Creator.

As Paul succinctly says, "When I am weak, He (God) is strong.". Obviously, We and not God have to take a back seat as a Christian or we will live a most miserable life. Maybe even more miserable than a non-Christian.
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[darin]

Eightball - Reading your posts is akin to going to church. God BLESS you.