We The People

[red states rule]

Great video I found. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did


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[SassyLady]

It was great...thanks for posting it here.

[Noir]

This is so american lol.

[HogTrash]

This is so american lol.Do you mean that in a loving, appreciative, neighborly way, a sarcastic, facetious way or some other way altogether?

[SassyLady]

This is so american lol.

Well, yeah, it is about America so what's your point?

[Noir]

Well, yeah, it is about America so what's your point?

I don't just mean the message as such, i mean the whole idea behind it, you would never get something in Britain like that, and if you did it would likely be on every satire program within a week being ripped apart.
I was just expressing an acknowledgement of some pretty strong cultural differences,

[OldMercsRule]

I don't just mean the message as such, i mean the whole idea behind it, you would never get something in Britain like that, and if you did it would likely be on every satire program within a week being ripped apart.
I was just expressing an acknowledgement of some pretty strong cultural differences,

Thanks for the Great Video: Red States Rule.

Great Britain is a fine Country, (one of the best on Earth), and our Mother Country has seeded most of the most successful Countries in the world today, (see other Commonwealth Countries from Mother England).

That said: We are the ONE Country who acknowledges in the foundation of the Republic that our basic rights come from God.

Yours come from the Queen.

You are very correct: Sir.

THERE IS A HUGE CULTURAL AND FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE.

One a growing number of Americans are taking very seriously, (as have our forefathers, and men and women who have made this Country the best there has ever been) as Mr. Obamaprompter, Nasty Nancy and Horrible Harry are gonna learn in 11/2010 and 11/2012, God willing.

Respectfully, JR

[Noir]

Thanks for the Great Video: Red States Rule.

Great Britain is a fine Country, (one of the best on Earth), and our Mother Country has seeded most of the most successful Countries in the world today, (see other Commonwealth Countries from Mother England).

That said: We are the ONE Country who acknowledges in the foundation of the Republic that our basic rights come from God.

Yours come from the Queen.

You are very correct: Sir.

THERE IS A HUGE CULTURAL AND FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE.

One a growing number of Americans are taking very seriously, (as have our forefathers, and men and women who have made this Country the best there has ever been) as Mr. Obamaprompter, Nasty Nancy and Horrible Harry are gonna learn in 11/2010 and 11/2012, God willing.

Respectfully, JR

Your rights do not come from God, don't be so silly.
and our rights do not come from the queen.

[OldMercsRule]

Your rights do not come from God, don't be so silly.
and our rights do not come from the queen.

Not silly at all. Please read were it comes from, in case yer Brit. education didn't teach this.

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

(Empahsis mine.) :D The rest of the story:

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

[Noir]

Does that not make you cringe? "all men are created equal" yet women are not? What hath the creator to say for them?

Rights are given by people, not by Gods, just because someone says they come from a creator does not make it so.

[Abbey Marie]

Does that not make you cringe? "all men are created equal" yet women are not? What hath the creator to say for them?

Rights are given by people, not by Gods, just because someone says they come from a creator does not make it so.

Mankind, men, the terms refer to everyone. Don't be so narrow in your scope of the language.

Your deflection aside, now: you have not addressed the fact that our forefathers put in writing that our rights come from God, as Merc posted.

[OldMercsRule]

Noir; states: Does that not make you cringe?

Nope NOT AT ALL. It makes me proud to be an American.

"all men are created equal" yet women are not? What hath the creator to say for them?

The terms have come to mean women as well, which many meant when this Great Document was drafted. It took us two more wars 1812 and the war between the states to get it right: but we did.

Rights are given by people, not by Gods, just because someone says they come from a creator does not make it so.

It is so in America.

[Noir]

Mankind, men, the terms refer to everyone. Don't be so narrow in your scope of the language.

Your deflection aside, now: you have not addressed the fact that our forefathers put in writing that our rights come from God, as Merc posted.

I'm sure the term has changed over time, and that when the phrase was first used, it did not mean everyone, but men only.

I don't know enough about the founding fathers to talk about their religious beliefs in depth, however, given their aim was to create a secular free state i would wonder what their motives behind the word God is.

And as i have said, just because they said your rights come from God, does not mean that do, because they don't.

[Noir]

Nope NOT AT ALL. It makes me proud to be an American.

The terms have come to mean women as well, which many meant when this Great Document was drafted. It took us two more wars 1812 and the war between the states to get it right: but we did.

Indeedy, it has come to mean all, it did not at first, why did these women not have their god given right of equality back then?


It is so in America.

No it is not.

[SassyLady]

I'm sure the term has changed over time, and that when the phrase was first used, it did not mean everyone, but men only.

I don't know enough about the founding fathers to talk about their religious beliefs in depth, however, given their aim was to create a secular free state i would wonder what their motives behind the word God is.

And as i have said, just because they said your rights come from God, does not mean that do, because they don't.

No, they were not trying to create a state that did not recognize or incorporate religion. They did not want the Church controlling the government.....vast difference Noir.

[Noir]

No, they were not trying to create a state that did not recognize or incorporate religion. They did not want the Church controlling the government.....vast difference Noir.

Exactly, there is to be a clear separation between church and state, which is why "in the foundation of the Republic that our basic rights come from God." is a load of tosh, as i was saying.

[SassyLady]

Exactly, there is to be a clear separation between church and state, which is why "in the foundation of the Republic that our basic rights come from God." is a load of tosh, as i was saying.

You are missing it!!! They didn't want the "Church" controlling the government...as it was done in Europe. If you don't know the difference between "God" and "the Church" then I can't help you.

[Noir]

You are missing it!!! They didn't want the "Church" controlling the government...as it was done in Europe. If you don't know the difference between "God" and "the Church" then I can't help you.

I know the difference, as i said in a previous post, i am unsure of the religious background of all the founding fathers, which would greatly change what they mean by the word god.

None of this changes the fact that rights are not god given, but human given.

[OldMercsRule]

Regarding the plain language in the Declaration of Independence highlighted by Murky Noir; states: Does that not make you cringe?

Murky Replies: Nope NOT AT ALL. It makes me proud to be an American.

Noir comes back: "all men are created equal" yet women are not? What hath the creator to say for them?

Murky replies: The terms have come to mean women as well, which many meant when this Great Document was drafted. It took us two more wars 1812 and the war between the states to get it right: but we did.

Noir comes back: Indeedy, it has come to mean all, it did not at first, why did these women not have their god given right of equality back then?

Rights are given by people, not by Gods, just because someone says they come from a creator does not make it so.

Murky replies: It is so in America.

Noir corncludes: No it is not.

It doesn't surprize me that a Liberal Brit with barely a clue about what makes America the GREATEST COUNTRY ON THIS PLANET would make light of a primary foundational document and a HUGE FUNDAMENTAL CONCEPT OF GOD GIVEN RIGHTS that is so important to Americans and sets us apart from the rest of the world.

We all know as Americans that our fundamental rights come from God, (even American Atheists understand that). That is why we get riled up, (as the video shows to your apparent surprize), when modern Liberals who have forgoten the basics about the American people (like Obamaprompter), who want the USA to now lay down and copy the decadence of Europe that we left on July 4, 1776 on a Great Journey for "mankind", (which includes American Women), and look down their long snarky noses at us.

They and YOU just don't get it.

Respectfully. JR

[SassyLady]

I know the difference, as i said in a previous post, i am unsure of the religious background of all the founding fathers, which would greatly change what they mean by the word god.

None of this changes the fact that rights are not god given, but human given.

Says who? What came first - the chicken or the egg?

[Noir]

Says who? What came first - the chicken or the egg?

Chicken and egg is misleading, lets ask what came first, Humans or Gods. Given that gods are man made inventions and that there probably are none, i'd say humans.

You yourself are a deist, yes?

[Noir]

It doesn't surprize me that a Liberal Brit with barely a clue about what makes America the GREATEST COUNTRY ON THIS PLANET would make light of a primary foundational document and a HUGE FUNDAMENTAL CONCEPT OF GOD GIVEN RIGHTS that is so important to Americans and sets us apart from the rest of the world.

We all know as Americans that our fundamental rights come from God, (even American Atheists understand that). That is why we get riled up, (as the video shows to your apparent surprize), when modern Liberals who have forgoten the basics about the American people (like Obamaprompter), who want the USA to now lay down and copy the decadence of Europe that we left on July 4, 1776 on a Great Journey for "mankind", (which includes American Women), and look down their long snarky noses at us.

They and YOU just don't get it.

Respectfully. JR

That is an insane way of writing a post lol.

Didn't take you long to get into generalisations.

And you can say it as much as you like, your rights are not God given in any sense, they are given to you by humans, and the first of those humans put your rights in the bill of rights, they were not put their by god, but by humans.

[SassyLady]

Chicken and egg is misleading, lets ask what came first, Humans or Gods. Given that gods are man made inventions and that there probably are none, i'd say humans.

You yourself are a deist, yes?

Neither side can prove the existence or non-existence of God, therefore, your pemise about what came first doesn't hold water.

Deist - yes I believe the universe was created by some type of energy - and I refer to that as God. I did not come to this conclusion through religious studies, however. I sent you information about how I my belief system evolved.

Do I believe that rights are God given? Yes. And man can choose to uphold that or deny it...........but they are not the creators of it.

[OldMercsRule]

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMercsRule
It doesn't surprize me that a Liberal Brit with barely a clue about what makes America the GREATEST COUNTRY ON THIS PLANET would make light of a primary foundational document and a HUGE FUNDAMENTAL CONCEPT OF GOD GIVEN RIGHTS that is so important to Americans and sets us apart from the rest of the world.

We all know as Americans that our fundamental rights come from God, (even American Atheists understand that). That is why we get riled up, (as the video shows to your apparent surprize), when modern Liberals who have forgoten the basics about the American people (like Obamaprompter), who want the USA to now lay down and copy the decadence of Europe that we left on July 4, 1776 on a Great Journey for "mankind", (which includes American Women), and look down their long snarky noses at us.

They and YOU just don't get it.

Noir states: That is an insane way of writing a post lol.

Thanks, coming from you: I will take that as a compliment.

Didn't take you long to get into generalisations.

OH......... How so?

And you can say it as much as you like, your rights are not God given in any sense,

You are not much of an authority other then in yer own mind.

It is not what just I am saying.

I posted the foundational document of the (then) new Republic that clearly states otherwise, and as the document states: I and the Founders of this Great Nation find it SELF EVIDENT THAT ALL AMERICAN'S BASIC RIGHTS COME FROM GOD NOT MAN* OR MAN MADE INSTITUTIONS. {*the term man includes women.}

they are given to you by humans, and the first of those humans put your rights in the bill of rights, they were not put their by god, but by humans.

Repeating your uninformed cracked position doesn't make it so.

You don't get it, that is quite clear and prolly never will.

You may make a great Brit, (maybe even a great Euro as well); butt you would never make it here as an American.

Carry on now. JR

[HogTrash]

Exactly, there is to be a clear separation between church and state, which is why "in the foundation of the Republic that our basic rights come from God." is a load of tosh, as i was saying.Because of your marxist induced negativity with God and religion, it may be neccessary for you to mentally alter the "God given rights" phrase and replace it with:

"rights that are decreed by nature to be part of every human being's existance so that they may be assured of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

[Noir]

Neither side can prove the existence or non-existence of God, therefore, your pemise about what came first doesn't hold water.

Deist - yes I believe the universe was created by some type of energy - and I refer to that as God. I did not come to this conclusion through religious studies, however. I sent you information about how I my belief system evolved.

Do I believe that rights are God given? Yes. And man can choose to uphold that or deny it...........but they are not the creators of it.

I know it can't be proven, but that doesn't mean there's a 50:50 chance, the chances of a god are very small indeed, though ofcourse not impossible.

Deists do not believe that 'god' is in any way interested in humans, so why would you think that a non-personal god would give certain rights?

Can i ask how you tell the difference between a god given and human given right?

[SassyLady]

I know it can't be proven, but that doesn't mean there's a 50:50 chance, the chances of a god are very small indeed, though ofcourse not impossible.

Deists do not believe that 'god' is in any way interested in humans, so why would you think that a non-personal god would give certain rights?

Can i ask how you tell the difference between a god given and human given right?

God, Source of Energy, created all life long before humans existed, therefore, how can you say rights are given by humans?

[SassyLady]

Deists do not believe that 'god' is in any way interested in humans, so why would you think that a non-personal god would give certain rights?



guess I'm not a deist then.

[Noir]

Thanks, coming from you: I will take that as a compliment.

Think of it as you will,


OH......... How so?

You were "not surprised" that a "liberal Brit" had "barley a clue"
That is a generalisation.



You are not much of an authority other then in yer own mind.

It is not what just I am saying.

I posted the foundational document of the (then) new Republic that clearly states otherwise, and as the document states: I and the Founders of this Great Nation find it SELF EVIDENT THAT ALL AMERICAN'S BASIC RIGHTS COME FROM GOD NOT MAN* OR MAN MADE INSTITUTIONS. {*the term man includes women.}

You could have two dozen statements, all saying rights are god given, that does not make it so.


Repeating your uninformed cracked position doesn't make it so.
You don't get it, that is quite clear and prolly never will.
You may make a great Brit, (maybe even a great Euro as well); butt you would never make it here as an American.
Carry on now. JR

So what, do you think God apeared to the founding fathers and told them what rights to include, much as he did to Moses with the commandments? Or do you think that god scribbled them down on some paper or what?
They were thought of by humans, righten by humans, for humans. Simple.

[Noir]

Because of your marxist induced negativity with God and religion, it may be neccessary for you to mentally alter the "God given rights" phrase and replace it with:

"rights that are decreed by nature to be part of every human being's existance so that they may be assured of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

I don't want to get into word games, that is of little matter, what is of matter is the fact that rights are given by humans, not gods.

[Noir]

God, Source of Energy, created all life long before humans existed, therefore, how can you say rights are given by humans?

That's pretty improbable,

also, you failed to address "Can i ask how you tell the difference between a god given and human given right?"

[SassyLady]

That's pretty improbable,

also, you failed to address "Can i ask how you tell the difference between a god given and human given right?"

God gave humans the right to exist....and I suppose that humans do the same thing, however, without God, humans would not have the choice to give or take away rights.

[Noir]

God gave humans the right to exist....and I suppose that humans do the same thing, however, without God, humans would not have the choice to give or take away rights.

So by giving humans choice, he gave us the right to make rights, and thus any rights we make are god given?
By that logic if i chose to go on a killing spree then that is my god given right, as i chose to do something that god gave me the right to chose =/

[HogTrash]

I don't want to get into word games, that is of little matter, what is of matter is the fact that rights are given by humans, not gods.Regardless of whether we're religious or not, we are much more secure with our "God Given Rights" for one very good reason.

Rights that are granted by humans can be taken away by humans...God's are inalienable...Be careful what you wish for peckerwood.

[Noir]

Regardless of whether we're religious or not, we are much more secure with our "God Given Rights" for one very good reason.

Rights that are granted by humans can be taken away by humans...God's are inalienable...Be careful what you wish for peckerwood.

So what god given right do you have that can not be taken away? And which of them are in the Bill of rights?

[OldMercsRule]

OldMercsRule stated Quote:
You are not much of an authority other then in yer own mind.

It is not what just I am saying.

I posted the foundational document of the (then) new Republic that clearly states otherwise, and as the document states: I and the Founders of this Great Nation find it SELF EVIDENT THAT ALL AMERICAN'S BASIC RIGHTS COME FROM GOD NOT MAN* OR MAN MADE INSTITUTIONS. {*the term man includes women.}

Noir states: You could have two dozen statements, all saying rights are god given, that does not make it so.

Two Hundred and thirty four years, three hundred million Americans, the world's largest economy and the world's mightiest military makes it so: Noir.

OldMercsRule stated Quote:
Repeating your uninformed cracked position doesn't make it so.
You don't get it, that is quite clear and prolly never will.
You may make a great Brit, (maybe even a great Euro as well); butt you would never make it here as an American.
Carry on now.

Noir states: So what, do you think God apeared to the founding fathers and told them what rights to include, much as he did to Moses with the commandments?

Do the words "self evident" mean anything to you???

Noir states: Or do you think that god scribbled them down on some paper or what?
They were thought of by humans, righten by humans, for humans. Simple.

"Humans", (the Founding Fathers), simply acknowledged and CODIFIED what all Americans believed to be true, and we enforce what we believe. Simple but fundamental concept. Unless yer rights come from the Queen eh?.

[Missileman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMercsRule
It doesn't surprize me that a Liberal Brit with barely a clue about what makes America the GREATEST COUNTRY ON THIS PLANET would make light of a primary foundational document and a HUGE FUNDAMENTAL CONCEPT OF GOD GIVEN RIGHTS that is so important to Americans and sets us apart from the rest of the world.

We all know as Americans that our fundamental rights come from God, (even American Atheists understand that). That is why we get riled up, (as the video shows to your apparent surprize), when modern Liberals who have forgoten the basics about the American people (like Obamaprompter), who want the USA to now lay down and copy the decadence of Europe that we left on July 4, 1776 on a Great Journey for "mankind", (which includes American Women), and look down their long snarky noses at us.

They and YOU just don't get it.

Noir states: That is an insane way of writing a post lol.

Thanks, coming from you: I will take that as a compliment.

Didn't take you long to get into generalisations.

OH......... How so?

And you can say it as much as you like, your rights are not God given in any sense,

You are not much of an authority other then in yer own mind.

It is not what just I am saying.

I posted the foundational document of the (then) new Republic that clearly states otherwise, and as the document states: I and the Founders of this Great Nation find it SELF EVIDENT THAT ALL AMERICAN'S BASIC RIGHTS COME FROM GOD NOT MAN* OR MAN MADE INSTITUTIONS. {*the term man includes women.}

they are given to you by humans, and the first of those humans put your rights in the bill of rights, they were not put their by god, but by humans.

Repeating your uninformed cracked position doesn't make it so.

You don't get it, that is quite clear and prolly never will.

You may make a great Brit, (maybe even a great Euro as well); butt you would never make it here as an American.

Carry on now. JR

The founders' belief in a god has no bearing on whether rights are actually derived from man or god. Given the fact that the Bible is chuckerblock full of instances of people being deprived of both Life, and Liberty, it would be a fair conclusion that those two particular rights can in no way be of divine origin.

[red states rule]

So what god given right do you have that can not be taken away? And which of them are in the Bill of rights?

Life

Which is taken away without a second thought, thanks to those who support abortion

[SassyLady]

So by giving humans choice, he gave us the right to make rights, and thus any rights we make are god given?
By that logic if i chose to go on a killing spree then that is my god given right, as i chose to do something that god gave me the right to chose =/

Yes.

[red states rule]

So by giving humans choice, he gave us the right to make rights, and thus any rights we make are god given?
By that logic if i chose to go on a killing spree then that is my god given right, as i chose to do something that god gave me the right to chose =/

Yes Noir, God gave you the right to make choices

He gave you the right to make wrong choices

That is one reason he allowed people to decide to become liberals.

[OldMercsRule]

Missileman states:

The founders' belief in a god has no bearing on whether rights are actually derived from man or god.

10-4

Given the fact that the Bible is chuckerblock full of instances of people being deprived of both Life, and Liberty, it would be a fair conclusion that those two particular rights can in no way be of divine origin.

Your first statement showed understanding, (at least as I read it), this second one shows you don't get it at all.

The fact that the Founders made and codified a declaratory statement of self evidence, means that in this particular Republic regardless of what individual beliefs are, (Founders or Martians makes no difference) or what any holy book or scripture states inalienable rights flow to every American citizen from a source above man and or man's institutions.

The power of this Republic, (which is cornsiderable), stands behind this accepted fact, accepted by all Americans I know.

Sorry ya don't seem ta get it.

Are you an American citizen?

Where are you "transplanted" from?

[HogTrash]

So what god given right do you have that can not be taken away? And which of them are in the Bill of rights? An Endless List of Rights

A Principle of The Traditional American Philosophy

3. Unalienable Rights - From God

". . . endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights . . ." (Declaration of Independence)



5. To attempt to name all of these rights--starting with "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" mentioned in the Declaration of Independence--would be to start an endless list which would add up to the whole of Man's Freedom (Freedom from Government-over-Man). They would add up to the entirety of Individual Liberty (Liberty against Government-over-Man). Innumerable rights of The Individual are embraced in the Ninth Amendment, which states: "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." (Here "Constitution" includes the amendments.) Some idea of how vast the list would be is indicated by just one general freedom which leads into almost all of Free Man's activities of daily living throughout life: freedom of choice. This term stands for the right to do--and equally not to do--this or that, as conscience, whim or judgement, taste or desire, of The Individual may prompt from moment to moment, day by day, for as long as life lasts; but always, of course, with due regard for the equal rights of others and for the just laws expressive of the above-mentioned "just powers" of government designed to help safeguard the equal rights of all Individuals. Spelled out in detail, this single freedom--freedom of choice--is almost all-embracing.
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/yardstick/pr3.html

[Missileman]

Your first statement showed understanding, (at least as I read it), this second one shows you don't get it at all.

The fact that the Founders made and codified a declaratory statement of self evidence, means that in this particular Republic regardless of what individual beliefs are, (Founders or Martians makes no difference) or what any holy book or scripture states inalienable rights flow to every American citizen from a source above man and or man's institutions.



The founders' statement that they believe rights god given DO NOT make them god given despite your claim that the founders' statement makes it so. Your 10-4 made it seem you understand that, but your second statement contradicts it.

[OldMercsRule]

The founders' statement that they believe rights god given DO NOT make them god given despite your claim that the founders' statement makes it so. Your 10-4 made it seem you understand that, but your second statement contradicts it.

You don't make any sense.

[Missileman]

You don't make any sense.

Let me see if I can clear it up. You are claiming that U.S. citizens' rights are god given on the basis that the founders believed and wrote that they are. You agreed that the founders' belief has no bearing on whether rights are truly god given, then turned around and declared they are god-given based on the founders' beliefs.

[Mr. P]

So, let me see...if my "God" given right is violated or taken, do I pray to God to regain it or sue in a court?

[OldMercsRule]

Missileman states:

Let me see if I can clear it up. You are claiming that U.S. citizens' rights are god given on the basis that the founders believed and wrote that they are.

Nope.

Dunno if you are doin' this on purpose or if you really are as dense as your post indicates.

I asked you if you were a citizen, (since you claim to be a "transplant" of some sort), and you did not answer. Appears from your cracked comments that you are not, as your comments demonstrate a clear lack of basic understanding of what it is to be an American, as did the British feller: Noir.

Founders establish things. Their individual beliefs are not important but their draft of law creating agreements about basic facts are once they are in a body of law.

If the Founders (who codified the basic structure of the Republic), found it self evident on the merits that a creator endowed men and women with basic inalienable rights, the meaning of that act places those God given rights beyond regulation or compromise by other men, Governments or structures built by men.

So I agreed with your statement that the Founder's individual beliefs , (keyword: individual), were not important as long as the agreed upon creation of man the sentient being with said rights occured, (we are in fact here so it did prima facia in the view of the Founders), and the endowment of rights to man by a power greater then man or any man made creation was a basic premis codified into the structure by the whole group of Founders which it was, and therefore individual beliefs are not important.

You agreed that the founders' belief

Individual belief about the nature of creation

has no bearing on whether rights are truly god given, then turned around and declared they are god-given based on the founders' beliefs.

A better term for non citizens like Noir or dense people such as yourself would be collective agreed belief or statement of foundational facts of all the Founders who were establishing the premis for a body of law for a new Republic, regardless of the nuances of their beliefs as individuals.

I have done my part to make this as clear as possible, you have greater experience then me with obfuscation so if ya still don't get it I can't help ya. Sorry. JR

[Missileman]

Missileman states:

Let me see if I can clear it up. You are claiming that U.S. citizens' rights are god given on the basis that the founders believed and wrote that they are.

Nope.

Dunno if you are doin' this on purpose or if you really are as dense as your post indicates.

I asked you if you were a citizen, (since you claim to be a "transplant" of some sort), and you did not answer. Appears from your cracked comments that you are not, as your comments demonstrate a clear lack of basic understanding of what it is to be an American, as did the British feller: Noir.

Founders establish things. Their individual beliefs are not important but their draft of law creating agreements about basic facts are once they are in a body of law.

If the Founders (who codified the basic structure of the Republic), found it self evident on the merits that a creator endowed men and women with basic inalienable rights, the meaning of that act places those God given rights beyond regulation or compromise by other men, Governments or structures built by men.

So I agreed with your statement that the Founder's individual beliefs , (keyword: individual), were not important as long as the agreed upon creation of man the sentient being with said rights occured, (we are in fact here so it did prima facia in the view of the Founders), and the endowment of rights to man by a power greater then man or any man made creation was a basic premis codified into the structure by the whole group of Founders which it was, and therefore individual beliefs are not important.

You agreed that the founders' belief

Individual belief about the nature of creation

has no bearing on whether rights are truly god given, then turned around and declared they are god-given based on the founders' beliefs.

A better term for non citizens like Noir or dense people such as yourself would be collective agreed belief or statement of foundational facts of all the Founders who were establishing the premis for a body of law for a new Republic, regardless of the nuances of their beliefs as individuals.

I have done my part to make this as clear as possible, you have greater experience then me with obfuscation so if ya still don't get it I can't help ya. Sorry. JR

I am an American citizen to at least the same degree you are.

You keep repeating the same fallacious statement over and over again, but the repetition has not made your statement true even one iota. The opinion of the founders that rights are god-given in no way establishes it as fact, nor does it make the U.S. Constitution a codification of god-given rights, even if the founders believed they were doing so. There isn't a single entry in the U.S. Constitution that points to a right that is divine in origin.

[OldMercsRule]

I am an American citizen to at least the same degree you are.

You keep repeating the same fallacious statement over and over again, but the repetition has not made your statement true even one iota. The opinion of the founders that rights are god-given in no way establishes it as fact, nor does it make the U.S. Constitution a codification of god-given rights, even if the founders believed they were doing so. There isn't a single entry in the U.S. Constitution that points to a right that is divine in origin.

Sorry ya don't get it.

The Declaration is a statement of agreed upon facts and principals by the people who made the political break from the English Monarch (where human rights in English dominated America came from prior to said 7/4/1776 break), (revolution), and then went on to establish a nation based upon those agreed upon facts.

The Cornstitution built the functional operating structure of the Republic based upon those established facts which were established by said Declaration by the Founders.

Funny as an American citizen you would not know that, (or that you cornsider this obvious historical event "fallacious"), which is the primary difference between the American Republic of 7/4/1776 and the rest of the world.

I and most Americans cornsider these facts self evident.

You are lucky to be an America citizen, as you would have a big problem becoming a naturalized citicizen at this point if you told the truth.

Were ya dropped on yer head?

[Missileman]

Sorry ya don't get it.

The Declaration is a statement of agreed upon facts and principals by the people who made the political break from the English Monarch (where human rights in English dominated America came from prior to said 7/4/1776 break), (revolution), and then went on to establish a nation based upon those agreed upon facts.

The Cornstitution built the functional operating structure of the Republic based upon those established facts which were established by said Declaration by the Founders.

Funny as an American citizen you would not know that, (or that you cornsider this obvious historical event "fallacious"), which is the primary difference between the American Republic of 7/4/1776 and the rest of the world.

I and most Americans cornsider these facts self evident.

You are lucky to be an America citizen, as you would have a big problem becoming a naturalized citicizen at this point if you told the truth.

Were ya dropped on yer head?

And you still drone on like a retard that the Declaration of Independence establishes for a fact that rights are god-given. In fact all it establishes is that the founders believed so.

[HogTrash]

Missileman states:

Let me see if I can clear it up. You are claiming that U.S. citizens' rights are god given on the basis that the founders believed and wrote that they are.

Nope.

Dunno if you are doin' this on purpose or if you really are as dense as your post indicates.

I asked you if you were a citizen, (since you claim to be a "transplant" of some sort), and you did not answer. Appears from your cracked comments that you are not, as your comments demonstrate a clear lack of basic understanding of what it is to be an American, as did the British feller: Noir.

Founders establish things. Their individual beliefs are not important but their draft of law creating agreements about basic facts are once they are in a body of law.

If the Founders (who codified the basic structure of the Republic), found it self evident on the merits that a creator endowed men and women with basic inalienable rights, the meaning of that act places those God given rights beyond regulation or compromise by other men, Governments or structures built by men.

So I agreed with your statement that the Founder's individual beliefs , (keyword: individual), were not important as long as the agreed upon creation of man the sentient being with said rights occured, (we are in fact here so it did prima facia in the view of the Founders), and the endowment of rights to man by a power greater then man or any man made creation was a basic premis codified into the structure by the whole group of Founders which it was, and therefore individual beliefs are not important.

You agreed that the founders' belief

Individual belief about the nature of creation

has no bearing on whether rights are truly god given, then turned around and declared they are god-given based on the founders' beliefs.

A better term for non citizens like Noir or dense people such as yourself would be collective agreed belief or statement of foundational facts of all the Founders who were establishing the premis for a body of law for a new Republic, regardless of the nuances of their beliefs as individuals.

I have done my part to make this as clear as possible, you have greater experience then me with obfuscation so if ya still don't get it I can't help ya. Sorry. JR I like you. :beer:

[OldMercsRule]

And you still drone on like a retard that the Declaration of Independence establishes for a fact that rights are god-given. In fact all it establishes is that the founders believed so.

The unique nation these particular Founders created on this agreed factual basis of the source of basic human rights has become the best and most successful Nation there has ever been, which proves them correct.

Even most non Americans with a basic awareness and an understanding of history and a bit of education know this self evident fact as well.

It is what makes America an exceptional Country.

Sorry ya can't cellebrate this obvious fact that man's basic rights come from God with me.

You are an American that I share very little with.

Fortunately you are rare.

Kinda Sad.

[Missileman]

[COLOR="Blue"]The unique nation these particular Founders created on this agreed factual basis of the source of basic human rights has become the best and most successful Nation there has ever been, which proves them correct.

What a pile of bullshit. The founders formed a secular government, not a religious one. But perhaps you can point to the word god, or creator in the Constitution. And funny the BILL OF RIGHTS makes no mention that any of them are gifts from God.

[OldMercsRule]

What a pile of bullshit. The founders formed a secular government, not a religious one. But perhaps you can point to the word god, or creator in the Constitution. And funny the BILL OF RIGHTS makes no mention that any of them are gifts from God.


I never said they did not form a Secular Government.

I said all American's right to Life Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness is an inalienable right and endowed by the creator under the American system which is a primary foundational fact that make this system unique and exceptional.

The creator to me is God. Dunno what the creator is to an Athiest. Maybe a lightening bolt or some such.

Point is most Americans (Athiests too), acknowledge that in America the primary rights are innate and beyond the purviews of Gubment or other men.

[HogTrash]

I never said they did not form a Secular Government.

I said all American's right to Life Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness is an inalienable right and endowed by the creator under the American system which is a primary foundational fact that make this system unique and exceptional.

The creator to me is God. Dunno what the creator is to an Athiest. Maybe a lightening bolt or some such.

Point is most Americans (Athiests too), acknowledge that in America the primary rights are innate and beyond the purviews of Gubment or other men. Let's not forget that most "atheist" are liberals and in their irrational rose colored world, "rights" are relative.....errrr...LOL!

[Missileman]

I never said they did not form a Secular Government.

I said all American's right to Life Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness is an inalienable right and endowed by the creator under the American system which is a primary foundational fact that make this system unique and exceptional.

The creator to me is God. Dunno what the creator is to an Athiest. Maybe a lightening bolt or some such.

Point is most Americans (Athiests too), acknowledge that in America the primary rights are innate and beyond the purviews of Gubment or other men.

Our rights under the American system are endowed by the Constitution not by some imaginary creator.

[Missileman]

Let's not forget that most "atheist" are liberals and in their irrational rose colored world, "rights" are relative.....errrr...LOL!

Well this atheist is at least as conservative on most issues as any other conservatives that post here. As for rational, I find nothing rational in the belief in an invisible authority figure.

[OldMercsRule]

Our rights under the American system are endowed by the Constitution not by some imaginary creator.

Care to show me where the Constitution gives the "right" to life Mr. Cornservative?

[Missileman]

Care to show me where the Constitution gives the "right" to life Mr. Cornservative?

You assume there is one...the death penalty says otherwise.

[revelarts]

So, let me see...if my "God" given right is violated or taken, do I pray to God to regain it or sue in a court?

Both.
-----------------------

Interesting conversation. Seems the nay sayers agree that the founders believed Rights came from God. They just don't agree with the founders on that point. As others have mentioned, the rights are to numerous to codify because,
and this is something that took me a while to really sit strait on my head,
the constitution doesn't really grant ANY rights. The founders Assumed that ALL rights belonged to the People. And that anything the gov't did was only only a grant of right or better limited authority to the gov't from the people. NOT the other way around. The constitution outlines only what the Federal gov't has the ligit authority to do NOT what the people have the right to do.
Some of the founders didn't want a "bill or rights" because ALL rights belong to the people EXCEPT those that where granted to the Federal gov't via the constitution. But others thought it should have some as a matter of... hhmm "Just so you don't forget." But the 9th and 10th amendments say it all. All "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

As far as the source of the right in the 1st place. the founders didn't get the idea rights come God from midair. The idea had been around for hundreds of years in England and Europe through political philosophy, religious teachings and political action. John Locke was a Christian political philosopher that the founders read and leaned on for the general idea. The Laws of Nature, he asserted, came from God and therefore make them authoritative. And it is self-evident that, in nature, men desire to be free. But once they come into community they need a ways to regulate interactions and those interactions can only justly be convened by consent of each free person etc...
Locke was one of the main ones but others like him where also among those that the founders agreed had the best understanding of the REALITY of mankind and GOD's best purposes for us in a form of free governance.

Of course many where directly informed from Bible it itself. And all of the grand principals of equality that everyone wants to claim were and are derived and most hotly defended from the Bible and people of strong Biblical beliefs ---Slavery in England, Wilberforce a Christian, defended the equality of men based on the Bible. In the U.S. the abolition movement was based on the same. John Brown -was a Christian um "freedom fighter" in the sense that he understood that GOD GIVEN human rights were being violated via slavery.--

As much as atheist and agnostics like to say all the wonderful rights we have are "just human" the people who, yes, codified them and promoted them most earnestly where Hard Core CHRISTIANS or dipped and marinated in Christian ethos as they understood them. There has been nothing like what the U.S. has proposed that's survived -such as it is- that I know of.
Conceived in Liberty, derived from God.

Its been said that Atheist in the 19th century threw God over the bridge but before they did they went through his pockets and took, things like equality, individual freedom, a little chastity -not much- etc and claimed they'd always been theirs .

Noir you've stated elsewhere that u believe in a some kind of positive social gene. That's fine. Believe that if you want. But that gene is, to date, just as imaginary as you claim God to be. I say as far a primary sources for rights go your on weaker ground than the majority of people who have over the millennia believed that there is a creator God that we do owe just and righteous allegiance to and from there to our fellow man.

[OldMercsRule]

You assume there is one...the death penalty says otherwise.

Yasureyabetcha..........

Missleman previously stated:
"Our rights under the American system are endowed by the Constitution not by some imaginary creator."

Guess yer a bit cracked :lol: ^^^^ :lol: eh then: Mr. Conservative? :eek:

:lame2:

[Missileman]

Yasureyabetcha..........

Missleman previously stated:
"Our rights under the American system are endowed by the Constitution not by some imaginary creator."

Guess yer a bit cracked :lol: ^^^^ :lol: eh then: Mr. Conservative? :eek:

:lame2:

There is no contradiction between those posts...nice try.

[bullypulpit]

:lame2:

The "Leni Riefenstahl" school of film-making. But nowhere near as good as Leni would have done.

Just a script of right wing-nut talking points mashed together with some patriotic sounding music and wrapped in the flag. Just shows that they,and you Red, really have no grasp of just what the Constitution means.

[revelarts]

While the sentiments of the film are very good, 75% of the complaints about Obama could be use for Bush and as well. Please notice I said as well. Obama has added too the list by gun control proposals, socializing health care etc but has changed few ..um... none of the unconstitutional things that Bush put in place. Bush and crew initiated the bail out, signed the unconstitutional patriot act, approved warrantless wire tapping of any/all phones via NSA, warrantless bank account spying, trial free incarcerations, signing statements, states secrets gags and covers, secret warrentless searches, and more unconstitutional stuff. I hope the fervor over the constitution and the founders vision of limited gov't etc trumps party allegiance when Obama is gone and a republican (or maybe independent) is in power.

[HogTrash]

Well this atheist is at least as conservative on most issues as any other conservatives that post here.I did say "most", not "all".


As for rational, I find nothing rational in the belief in an invisible authority figure.That's OK...It is not neccessary for you to believe, only that those who do are free to do so.