Health-care Reform...The Long View

[bullypulpit]

<center><h1><font color= blue>Healthcare Reform...The Long View</font></h1></center>

I know folks on the right wing side of American politics don't have much concern for the long view...Especially when it conflicts with their slash-and-burn style of politics and their thirst for power...But we'll take a quick look anyways.

Health insurance companies are all about the bottom line. Their profits come from <i>denying</i> payment for health-care. In <a href=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/05/insurers-set-to-raise-pri_n_487684.html>a report by Golman-Sachs</a>, Steve Lewis, a broker for one of the world's largest insurance companies, stated that health insurers were more than comfortable pricing people out of the market to maintain their bottom line. But, like the robber barons of old, they...and their supporters...fail to look at the long term consequences. But that should come as no surprise to anyone. The same attitudes led to the ongoing mortgage crisis.

SO let's look at a long term consequence that will devastate the American middle class as well as everyone else further down on the economic food chain.

Health insurers are willing to raise their rates which, in turn, will force more and more people off of insurance roles. The result of this will be n increasing number of people using emergency departments as primary care providers. And this trend will only worsen as more and more people join the ranks of the uninsured. The upshot of this is that emergency departments, and the hospitals which support them, will face increasing demand for services from a growing pool of uninsured patients using them for primary care. These patients often wait until their condition becomes intolerable before seeking health care, thus arriving at the hospital in worse condition and often requiring a more complex course of treatment including longer hospital stays than their insured counterparts. The increased financial burden this creates for a hospital or a local/regional health-care system can force them to close their doors. <a href=http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/nyregion/03vincents.html>St. Vincent's Hospital in New York City</a> is a prime example of this. Faced with $75 million annual operating deficits, St. Vincent's was sold to a for profit health chain which will turn the hospital into an outpatient center. Thus closing a major source of health-care not just for the uninsured, but for everyone in Lower Manhattan for more than 150 years.

Now, imagine this repeated across the country in growing numbers...Hospitals and health care systems closing...fewer and fewer sources of health-care for the growing number of insured and uninsured alike, as more and more are forced into the ranks of the uninsured. Until only the very wealthy can afford to have their health care needs attended to at a few private, cash-only centers. Sounds fantastic...? It can never happen here? It can, and will, if meaningful and substantive reform of America's health care system is not passed. And it is how health-care works in many third world countries now. Imagine that...America reduced to third-world status by a short-sighted health-insurance industry and its equally short-sighted backers in Congress.

[red states rule]

You are aware that Medicare has the HIGHEST rate of rejected claims BP


http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx40/mmatters/DenialsByInsurer2008.jpg

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/368/reportcard.pdf

[red states rule]

BTW BP, even respected Dems are sick of what Obama, Reid, and Pelosi are doing




If Democrats ignore health-care polls, midterms will be costly

By Patrick H. Caddell and Douglas E. Schoen
Friday, March 12, 2010

In "The March of Folly," Barbara Tuchman asked, "Why do holders of high office so often act contrary to the way reason points and enlightened self-interest suggests?" Her assessment of self-deception -- "acting according to wish while not allowing oneself to be deflected by the facts" -- captures the conditions that are gripping President Obama and the Democratic Party leadership as they renew their efforts to enact health-care reform.

Their blind persistence in the face of reality threatens to turn this political march of folly into an electoral rout in November. In the wake of the stinging loss in Massachusetts, there was a moment when the president and the Democratic leadership seemed to realize the reality of the health-care situation. Yet like some seductive siren of Greek mythology, the lure of health-care reform has arisen again.

As pollsters to the past two Democratic presidents, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, respectively, we feel compelled to challenge the myths that seem to be prevailing in the political discourse and to once again urge a change in course before it is too late. At stake is the kind of mainstream, common-sense Democratic Party that we believe is crucial to the success of the American enterprise.

Bluntly put, this is the political reality:

First, the battle for public opinion has been lost. Comprehensive health care has been lost. If it fails, as appears possible, Democrats will face the brunt of the electorate's reaction. If it passes, however, Democrats will face a far greater calamitous reaction at the polls. Wishing, praying or pretending will not change these outcomes.

Nothing has been more disconcerting than to watch Democratic politicians and their media supporters deceive themselves into believing that the public favors the Democrats' current health-care plan. Yes, most Americans believe, as we do, that real health-care reform is needed. And yes, certain proposals in the plan are supported by the public.

However, a solid majority of Americans opposes the massive health-reform plan. Four-fifths of those who oppose the plan strongly oppose it, according to Rasmussen polling this week, while only half of those who support the plan do so strongly. Many more Americans believe the legislation will worsen their health care, cost them more personally and add significantly to the national deficit. Never in our experience as pollsters can we recall such self-deluding misconstruction of survey data.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/11/AR2010031102904.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

[bullypulpit]

Red, If I were discussing the number of claims denied by Medicare...it would have been a part of my post. Especially given that the true number of claims denied by health insurers is largely unknown. Although data "<a href=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/18/in-health-care-number-of_n_291881.html>obtained from the Web site of the state's Department of Managed Health Care showed that in just the first half of 2009, California's six largest HMOs had rejected more than 31 million claims -- 21 percent of those they had received.</a>". I was discussing the long term consequences of failure to pass meaningful, robust health-care reform. But, as I stated in my OP, the nation's right wingers, you and your fellow travelers included, are not much concerned with long term consequences and lack sufficient attention span for more than out of context sound-bites. Your second post is equally irrelevant.

For your edification:

<blockquote>...while just 36 percent believe Obama’s efforts to reform the health system are a good idea, that number increases to 53 percent when respondents were read a paragraph describing Obama’s plans. - <a href=http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/08/essence-of-health-care-endgame.html>FiveThirtyEight</a></blockquote>

Dismissed.

[Missileman]

<center><h1><font color= blue>Healthcare Reform...The Long View</font></h1></center>

I know folks on the right wing side of American politics don't have much concern for the long view...Especially when it conflicts with their slash-and-burn style of politics and their thirst for power...But we'll take a quick look anyways.

Health insurance companies are all about the bottom line. Their profits come from <i>denying</i> payment for health-care. In <a href=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/05/insurers-set-to-raise-pri_n_487684.html>a report by Golman-Sachs</a>, Steve Lewis, a broker for one of the world's largest insurance companies, stated that health insurers were more than comfortable pricing people out of the market to maintain their bottom line. But, like the robber barons of old, they...and their supporters...fail to look at the long term consequences. But that should come as no surprise to anyone. The same attitudes led to the ongoing mortgage crisis.

SO let's look at a long term consequence that will devastate the American middle class as well as everyone else further down on the economic food chain.

Health insurers are willing to raise their rates which, in turn, will force more and more people off of insurance roles. The result of this will be n increasing number of people using emergency departments as primary care providers. And this trend will only worsen as more and more people join the ranks of the uninsured. The upshot of this is that emergency departments, and the hospitals which support them, will face increasing demand for services from a growing pool of uninsured patients using them for primary care. These patients often wait until their condition becomes intolerable before seeking health care, thus arriving at the hospital in worse condition and often requiring a more complex course of treatment including longer hospital stays than their insured counterparts. The increased financial burden this creates for a hospital or a local/regional health-care system can force them to close their doors. <a href=http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/nyregion/03vincents.html>St. Vincent's Hospital in New York City</a> is a prime example of this. Faced with $75 million annual operating deficits, St. Vincent's was sold to a for profit health chain which will turn the hospital into an outpatient center. Thus closing a major source of health-care not just for the uninsured, but for everyone in Lower Manhattan for more than 150 years.

Now, imagine this repeated across the country in growing numbers...Hospitals and health care systems closing...fewer and fewer sources of health-care for the growing number of insured and uninsured alike, as more and more are forced into the ranks of the uninsured. Until only the very wealthy can afford to have their health care needs attended to at a few private, cash-only centers. Sounds fantastic...? It can never happen here? It can, and will, if meaningful and substantive reform of America's health care system is not passed. And it is how health-care works in many third world countries now. Imagine that...America reduced to third-world status by a short-sighted health-insurance industry and its equally short-sighted backers in Congress.

Do you think insurance companies should be forced to accept new beneficiaries with known pre-existing conditions?

[KarlMarx]

"I know folks on the right wing side of American politics don't have much concern for the long view..."

Actually, we DO have a lot of concern for the long view Bully... that's just what worries us....

at some point the federal debt has to be paid you see

that's a concept you people on the Left haven't gotten the hang of yet

[bullypulpit]

Do you think insurance companies should be forced to accept new beneficiaries with known pre-existing conditions?

Should insurers be forced to retain current clients that have required medical treatments for conditions which may recur ? You know...like cancer that's in remission?

My answer to the question you posed, and the one I posed above, is the same. An unequivocal "Yes."

What is your answer?

[Mr. P]

Health-care Reform...The SHORT View


MOST AMERICANS DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT INVOLVED IN HEALTH CARE!


Why is this so hard for some to accept?

[bullypulpit]

"I know folks on the right wing side of American politics don't have much concern for the long view..."

Actually, we DO have a lot of concern for the long view Bully... that's just what worries us....

at some point the federal debt has to be paid you see

that's a concept you people on the Left haven't gotten the hang of yet

Funny...you weren't that concerned when it was Dubbyuh running up the deficit.

[bullypulpit]

Health-care Reform...The SHORT View


MOST AMERICANS DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT INVOLVED IN HEALTH CARE!


Why is this so hard for some to accept?

Ya got an original thought on the matter? Or are talking points from Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh the best you can do?

[Missileman]

Should insurers be forced to retain current clients that have required medical treatments for conditions which may recur ? You know...like cancer that's in remission?

My answer to the question you posed, and the one I posed above, is the same. An unequivocal "Yes."

What is your answer?

Apples and oranges. But yes to your question.

As for my question to you, since you answered yes, I'll ask this: I assume then that you think it acceptable for someone to go to a junkyard, by a wrecked car for a few bucks, run down to an auto insurance store and buy a policy for it and then demand the insurer repair the wreck?

[Mr. P]

Ya got an original thought on the matter? Or are talking points from Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh the best you can do?

Oh Bully, that's such a liberal response when ya ain't got nothing. Switch the subject and Ignore the facts.

I don't listen to Limbaugh, he bores me. I don't receive Beck.
So, the thoughts are all mine based on the last yrs events.

Perhaps you remember that lil "astro-turf" movement? The one that has exploded into a Nationwide "grass roots" organization. They even had their first National convention last month. How about all those town hall meetings last summer? You know, the ones where people told their reps NO to this BS? Or how about that 9/12 march that turned out thousands in DC?

Gees Bully the next thing yer gonna do is bring Bush into this! Oh wait, you already did that. :laugh2:

[red states rule]

BP, the facts are as follows

A majority of Amercians do NOT want Obamacare

53% Remain Opposed to Health Care Plan
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform


A majority feel Obamacre will hurt the economy
Advertisement

57% Predict Health Care Plan Will Hurt The Economy
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/march_2010/57_predict_health_care_plan_will_hurt_the_economy


A majority want a new plan

55% Say Congress Should Start Over On Health Care
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/march_2010/55_say_congress_should_start_over_on_health_care


The liberal media is out there BEGGING Dems to pass this for Obama

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Dems are even talking about "passing" Obamacare in the Senate WITHOUT a recorded vote

Keep saying Americans want this tax bill BP - while loyal Dems who worked for Carter and Clinton are telling Obama, Reid, and Pelosi if they pass this piece of crap bill it will spell doom for the party in November

Are you really this deaf to the voices of the people you claim to care about? Are you so obsessed with more power for the government you would dismiss the opposition so out of hand knowing how angry the voting public will be?

You rant how private ins companies deny claims yet dismiss the fact Medicare has the biggest rate of rejecting claims. Is this how Obamacre will work - rationing care for the sick while taxing the hell out of the rest of us?

If there is such a huge crisis in the healthcare area, why are Dems delaying Obamacre until after the 2012 election - but jacking up taxes right away?

[Missileman]

Apples and oranges. But yes to your question.

As for my question to you, since you answered yes, I'll ask this: I assume then that you think it acceptable for someone to go to a junkyard, by a wrecked car for a few bucks, run down to an auto insurance store and buy a policy for it and then demand the insurer repair the wreck?

BUMP...where'd ya run off to Bully?

[red states rule]

BUMP...where'd ya run off to Bully?

This happens all the time. When facts are brought into the debate, BP gets "bored" and leaves

The fact Dems has total control, and do not need any Republican votes in the House, and only one Republican vote in the Senate - and still can't pass Obamacare - is very stressful for BP

The current polls, and the angry mood of the voters is not helping either

[bullypulpit]

Oh Bully, that's such a liberal response when ya ain't got nothing. Switch the subject and Ignore the facts.

I don't listen to Limbaugh, he bores me. I don't receive Beck.
So, the thoughts are all mine based on the last yrs events.

Perhaps you remember that lil "astro-turf" movement? The one that has exploded into a Nationwide "grass roots" organization. They even had their first National convention last month. How about all those town hall meetings last summer? You know, the ones where people told their reps NO to this BS? Or how about that 9/12 march that turned out thousands in DC?

Gees Bully the next thing yer gonna do is bring Bush into this! Oh wait, you already did that. :laugh2:

Sorry, I was working this weekend. But to address your point, you've picked up, and repeated the right -wing meme. And yes, tea-baggers are still an "astro-turf" movement...funded by Corporate interests.

<blockquote>Reports indicate that the Tea Party Movement benefits from millions of dollars from conservative foundations that are derived from wealthy U.S. families and their business interests. Is appears that money to organize and implement the Movement is flowing primarily through two conservative groups: Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks. - <a href=http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement_funding>SourceWatch</a></blockquote>

[red states rule]

Hey BP, back to the topic of this thread - Dems still do not have the votes to pass Obamacare

And it is Dems who are preventing it from passing




Dems Short on Health Votes in House, For Now

AP

WASHINGTON -- The House's chief Democratic headcounter said Sunday he hadn't rounded up enough votes to pass President Barack Obama's health care overhaul heading into a make-or-break week, even as the White House's top political adviser said he was "absolutely confident" in its prospects.

The administration gave signs of retreating on its demands that senators jettison special home-state deals sought by individual lawmakers that have angered the public.

White House spokesman Robert Gibbs predicted House passage this week, before Obama travels to Asia, a trip he postponed to push for the bill.

"This is the week where we will have this important vote," Gibbs said. "I do think this is the climactic week for health care reform."

Political strategist David Axelrod said Democrats will persuade enough lawmakers to vote "yes." The House GOP leader, Ohio Rep. John Boehner, took up the challenge, acknowledging Republicans alone can't stop the measure but pledging to do "everything we can to make it difficult for them, if not impossible, to pass the bill." Republicans believe they may get help from Democrats facing tough re-election campaigns.

Axelrod said it will be a struggle, taking aim at insurance industry lobbyists who "have landed on Capitol Hill like locusts" and Republicans who see being on the losing side of the vote as a political victory.

"I am absolutely confident that we are going to be successful. I believe that there is a sense of urgency on the part of members of Congress," given recent news about insurance plan rate increases, Axelrod said.

A dose of reality came from Rep. James Clyburn, the third-ranking House Democrat and main vote counter. "No, we don't have them as of this morning, but we've been working this thing all weekend," said Clyburn, D-S.C.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/14/dem-house-vote-counter-lacks-health-votes/

[bullypulpit]

BP, the facts are as follows

A majority of Amercians do NOT want Obamacare

53% Remain Opposed to Health Care Plan
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform


A majority feel Obamacre will hurt the economy
Advertisement

57% Predict Health Care Plan Will Hurt The Economy
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/march_2010/57_predict_health_care_plan_will_hurt_the_economy


A majority want a new plan

55% Say Congress Should Start Over On Health Care
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/march_2010/55_say_congress_should_start_over_on_health_care


The liberal media is out there BEGGING Dems to pass this for Obama

<object width="518" height="419"><param name="movie" value="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=Xd8zkU8zuz" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=Xd8zkU8zuz" allowfullscreen="true" width="518" height="419" /></object>


Dems are even talking about "passing" Obamacare in the Senate WITHOUT a recorded vote

Keep saying Americans want this tax bill BP - while loyal Dems who worked for Carter and Clinton are telling Obama, Reid, and Pelosi if they pass this piece of crap bill it will spell doom for the party in November

Are you really this deaf to the voices of the people you claim to care about? Are you so obsessed with more power for the government you would dismiss the opposition so out of hand knowing how angry the voting public will be?

You rant how private ins companies deny claims yet dismiss the fact Medicare has the biggest rate of rejecting claims. Is this how Obamacre will work - rationing care for the sick while taxing the hell out of the rest of us?

If there is such a huge crisis in the healthcare area, why are Dems delaying Obamacre until after the 2012 election - but jacking up taxes right away?

What fact's Red? Your polling numbers are from a polling organization with a well know history of bias towards the right.

[bullypulpit]

But back to the POINT of the OP...The consequences of failure to pas meaningful, robust health-care will be devastating to you...to me...to anyone who can't afford to pay out of pocket for health-care...which is most Americans.

And under the current system, Red, you can't really afford to change jobs....can you? Due to your pre-existing condition, you'll never be able to get health-care insurance anywhere else. And what happens if your cancer becomes active again? Will you current provider drop your coverage? How's that for a "death panel" Red?

Buh-Bye now.

[red states rule]

What fact's Red? Your polling numbers are from a polling organization with a well know history of bias towards the right.

No BP, my polling numbers are from a polling organization with the best accuracy in their numbers

[red states rule]

But back to the POINT of the OP...The consequences of failure to pas meaningful, robust health-care will be devastating to you...to me...to anyone who can't afford to pay out of pocket for health-care...which is most Americans.

And under the current system, Red, you can't really afford to change jobs....can you? Due to your pre-existing condition, you'll never be able to get health-care insurance anywhere else. And what happens if you cancer becomes active again? Will you current provider drop your coverage? How's that for a "death panel" Red?

Buh-Bye now.

1) I have no desire to change jobs. I got a good transfer to a new department and a pay riase

2) I have no issues with my current insurance. In fact I changed companies with no issues, and they paid the claims from the surgery I had in January

3) I am worried my employer will drop their coverage, dump all of employees in the "public option" and have to deal with the Federal government and their rationed care. In fact, many of us at work have the same concern

[red states rule]

OK BP, is Gallup a right leaning poll?

The numbers are not good for your side here either

Americans Say Jobs Top Problem Now, Deficit in Future

In U.S., 45% Favor, 48% Oppose Obama Healthcare Plan

http://www.gallup.com/tag/Healthcare.aspx

[Kathianne]

More to the point. Portability and pre-existing conditions are among the issues near everyone wants reformed. How hard would that legislation be to pass? Not.

It's the omnibus approach that even 12 year olds know is a faulty way to address real problems.

[red states rule]

More to the point. Portability and pre-existing conditions are among the issues near everyone wants reformed. How hard would that legislation be to pass? Not.

It's the omnibus approach that even 12 year olds know is a faulty way to address real problems.

Or allowing health insurance companies to sell across state lines. That would pass with near a 100% vote IF the goal was to make coverage more affordable, and not put them out of business

[Monkeybone]

More to the point. Portability and pre-existing conditions are among the issues near everyone wants reformed. How hard would that legislation be to pass? Not.

It's the omnibus approach that even 12 year olds know is a faulty way to address real problems.
yah.. but sheesh.... it is just too hard to make a step by step refom Kat! you need to do a sweeping reform to make a difference.

didn't you know that it is better to bulldoze the house to fix a window and door?

[red states rule]

Thousands turned out in MN to oppose Obamacare


http://hotair.cachefly.net/images/2010-03/killbillrally2.jpg




Thousands rally at State Capitol to kill health care bill


The message that echoed across the State Capitol grounds Saturday couldn't have been simpler: "Kill the bill!"

A day after congressional Democratic leaders announced their final legislative push to enact a bill to overhaul the nation's health care system, opponents rallied to send a noisy contrary message. Rally organizers said 4,000 people attended, but Capitol police estimated the crowd at 2,000 or fewer.

Dozens of times, the crowd members, a combination of Republicans, social conservatives and Tea Partiers, chanted, "Kill the bill! Kill the bill!" urged on by a half-dozen speakers.

The headliner and clear crowd favorite was Republican Sixth District Rep. Michele Bachmann, who said Democrats "are spending us into bondage we can never dig ourselves out of."

http://www.startribune.com/politics/local/87593572.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aUUr

and

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/03/13/thousands-rally-at-minnesota-capital-to-kill-the-bill/

[Kathianne]

Or allowing health insurance companies to sell across state lines. That would pass with near a 100% vote IF the goal was to make coverage more affordable, and not put them out of business

There are numerous points of agreement. That's not what the Dems are looking for.

[red states rule]

There are numerous points of agreement. That's not what the Dems are looking for.

No they are not Kathianne. They are on a Kamikaze mission

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2800/4434541749_a59b92a6f3_m.jpg

[Missileman]

But back to the POINT of the OP...The consequences of failure to pas meaningful, robust health-care will be devastating to you...to me...to anyone who can't afford to pay out of pocket for health-care...which is most Americans.

And under the current system, Red, you can't really afford to change jobs....can you? Due to your pre-existing condition, you'll never be able to get health-care insurance anywhere else. And what happens if your cancer becomes active again? Will you current provider drop your coverage? How's that for a "death panel" Red?

Buh-Bye now.

That's a major problem with the way things are set up right now. They need to untie health insurance from your place of employment. That way, if something happens to your job, your insurance need not change.

BTW Bully...you've neglected to answer my other question twice now.

[red states rule]

The list of Republican ideas to refore health care is long - I can't list them all here - and Dems have rejected all of them

Take a look and see for yourself which party really wants to reform health care and have the Federal government take it over




- Stop the government-run health plan. Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) offered an amendment to improve the legislation by taking out the section of the bill that would create a government-run health plan to compete with private sector health plans. Reps. Phil Roe (R-TN) and John Kline (R-MN) offered similar amendments in the Education & Labor Committee. The amendments were all killed in committee.

- Prevent bureaucrats from making personal medical decisions for patients. Rep. Phil Gingrey, M.D. (R-GA) offered an amendment in the Energy & Commerce Committee to bar federal political appointees and bureaucrats from intervening in patient treatment decisions. The Gingrey amendment would have ensured patients and doctors remain as the sole individuals responsible for making these critical decisions. Chairman Henry Waxman (D-CA) led Democrats in opposition to the amendment, which was defeated.

- Require all Members of Congress to get their health insurance through the proposed government-run plan. Rep. Dean Heller (R-NV) offered an amendment in the Ways & Means Committee that would have required Members of Congress to enroll immediately in the government-run health plan that would be established under the Democratic bill. Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) offered an amendment to put his committee on the record in support of enrolling Members of Congress in the government-run plan as well. While the Wilson amendment was approved by voice vote in the Education & Labor Committee, the Heller amendment was killed in the Ways & Means Committee.

- Establish a $1 trillion deficit cap. During Energy & Commerce Committee consideration of the Democrats’ government-run health care plan, Rep. Lee Terry (R-NE) offered an amendment to delay “disease prevention” spending for items like municipal jungle gyms and bicycle trails until Washington’s budget deficit dips below $1 trillion. Democrats defeated the amendment, paving the way for more unchecked spending.

- Keep the federal government out of health care decisions. Rep. Wally Herger (R-CA) offered an amendment to prohibit the federal government from conducting so-called comparative effectiveness research, in which the federal government would ultimately help determine which medical treatments are administered to whom in America – otherwise known as government rationing of health care. The Herger amendment was defeated. Days later, in a July 22 prime-time press conference, President Obama told the nation the health care bill “will keep government out of health care decisions,” despite the fact that the comparative effectiveness language remains in the bill.

- Protect Americans from “hurry up and wait.” Rep. Kevin Brady (R-TX) offered an amendment that would repeal the government-run health plan if wait times exceed the average wait times in private plans. The Brady amendment was not passed.

- Stop the job-killing employer mandate. Rep. Sam Johnson (R-TX) offered an amendment in the Committee on Ways & Means to improve the Democratic legislation by taking out the section of the bill that requires American employers to provide health coverage for all of their employees, and Reps. Brett Guthrie (R-KY) and Cathy McMorris Rodgers (R-WA) offered similar amendments in the Committee on Education & Labor. Independent analysts agree this Democratic mandate on employers is likely to result in the elimination of millions of American jobs, and it could hardly come at a worse moment for the nation’s economy. The GOP amendments were killed in committee.


for the complete list

http://www.investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=399&mid=7675805&pt=msg

[glockmail]

The long view is that fewer folks will go into the medical profession, and with no motivation for profit cures won't be found as quickly if at all. Rich Americans will move to somewhere where health care is private. The overloaded US system will ration health care then go bankrupt. Liberals will declare that we didn't try hard enough.

[red states rule]

The long view is that fewer folks will go into the medical profession, and with no motivation for profit cures won't be found as quickly if at all. Rich Americans will move to somewhere where health care is private. The overloaded US system will ration health care then go bankrupt. Liberals will declare that we didn't try hard enough.

and America will become more like Great Britian





The babies born in hospital corridors: Bed shortage forces 4,000 mothers to give birth in lifts, offices and hospital toilets


Thousands of women are having to give birth outside maternity wards because of a lack of midwives and hospital beds.

The lives of mothers and babies are being put at risk as births in locations ranging from lifts to toilets - even a caravan - went up 15 per cent last year to almost 4,000.

Health chiefs admit a lack of maternity beds is partly to blame for the crisis, with hundreds of women in labour being turned away from hospitals because they are full.

Latest figures show that over the past two years there were at least:

63 births in ambulances and 608 in transit to hospitals;

117 births in A&E departments, four in minor injury units and two in medical assessment areas;

115 births on other hospital wards and 36 in other unspecified areas including corridors;

399 in parts of maternity units other than labour beds, including postnatal and antenatal wards and reception areas.

Additionally, overstretched maternity units shut their doors to any more women in labour on 553 occasions last year.

Babies were born in offices, lifts, toilets and a caravan, according to the Freedom of Information data for 2007 and 2008 from 117 out of 147 trusts which provide maternity services.

One woman gave birth in a lift while being transferred to a labour ward from A&E while another gave birth in a corridor, said East Cheshire NHS Trust.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1209034/The-babies-born-hospital-corridors-Bed-shortage-forces-4-000-mothers-birth-lifts-offices-hospital-toilets.html#ixzz0iFhE0ABI

[bullypulpit]

My Gawd...Y'all make it sound like the watered-down, milque-toast health-care reform package making its tortured way through Congress is full blown, all out single payer, kill the insurance companies communism. All your protestations reveal is just how truly ignorant you really are of that which you are so loudly protesting.

Taking your cues, and your misguided talking points, from the GOP leadership and others, you cast those talking point about as uncritically as a drunken sailor on liberty casts his seed about. You fail to ask the most basic questions of both yourselves and the right-wing leadership you so slavishly follow. And more's the pity...ignorance such as yours, whether naive or willful, the lack of critical thought, the unquestioning acceptance of out-right lies, will be the death of the Republic. Not some outside enemy...just ignorant rubes, such as yourselves, who can be led by the nose like fatted calves to the slaughter...never realizing the threat until the bolt gin is pressed firmly against your forehead. But by then, it's too late.

[red states rule]

My Gawd...Y'all make it sound like the watered-down, milque-toast health-care reform package making its tortured way through Congress is full blown, all out single payer, kill the insurance companies communism. All your protestations reveal is just how truly ignorant you really are of that which you are so loudly protesting.

Taking your cues, and your misguided talking points, from the GOP leadership and others, you cast those talking point about as uncritically as a drunken sailor on liberty casts his seed about. You fail to ask the most basic questions of both yourselves and the right-wing leadership you so slavishly follow. And more's the pity...ignorance such as yours, whether naive or willful, the lack of critical thought, the unquestioning acceptance of out-right lies, will be the death of the Republic. Not some outside enemy...just ignorant rubes, such as yourselves, who can be led by the nose like fatted calves to the slaughter...never realizing the threat until the bolt gin is pressed firmly against your forehead. But by then, it's too late.

As usual BP you rant in talking points, and never address what is in the bill. It is not lies when it is pointed out the biggest tax increase in history is in the bill. it is not a lie that premiums will go up. It is not a lie that emplyers will lay off workers rather then pay the higher taxes and higher costs

What is a lie is that Dems want to lower the cost, and Obamacare will cut the deficit

What is sad is that liberals like you have no desire to talk about these issues. but rather spin, attack, then get bored and leave the debate

[KarlMarx]

Funny...you weren't that concerned when it was Dubbyuh running up the deficit.
I, for one, was very concerned about it..... now that the shoe is on the other foot, and moreso, I don't hear much from you or anyone else about it. This, in spite of the fact that Moody's is warning of a cut in our government's bond rating....

[red states rule]

I, for one, was very concerned about it..... now that the shoe is on the other foot, and moreso, I don't hear much from you or anyone else about it. This, in spite of the fact that Moody's is warning of a cut in our government's bond rating....

It is amazing how BP and his fellow liberals were outraged over Bush's spending (and rightly so) but now the ONLY defense they can offer in Obama's increased level of deficit spending is "Bush did it". They ran against excessive spending, right?

Now that BP is backed into the corner, sees Obama is a total failure, watches helplessly as Obama, Reid, and Pelosi tank in the polls, and fears the same voter anger that was building against the Republicnas in 2006 and 2008 - all BP can muster is everybody did it crap

I still can't understand how if Bush's reckless spending got us in this mess, how Obama's mega excessive spending will get us out of this mess

[Monkeybone]

My Gawd...Y'all make it sound like the watered-down, milque-toast health-care reform package making its tortured way through Congress is full blown, all out single payer, kill the insurance companies communism. All your protestations reveal is just how truly ignorant you really are of that which you are so loudly protesting.

Taking your cues, and your misguided talking points, from the GOP leadership and others, you cast those talking point about as uncritically as a drunken sailor on liberty casts his seed about. You fail to ask the most basic questions of both yourselves and the right-wing leadership you so slavishly follow. And more's the pity...ignorance such as yours, whether naive or willful, the lack of critical thought, the unquestioning acceptance of out-right lies, will be the death of the Republic. Not some outside enemy...just ignorant rubes, such as yourselves, who can be led by the nose like fatted calves to the slaughter...never realizing the threat until the bolt gin is pressed firmly against your forehead. But by then, it's too late. how are they misguied? because they don't agree with it blindly? point it out. show us where and how we are wrong and I would bet that most people would go "oh, ok, guess I was wrong" (most, not the crazies). Are will you just go with Pelosi's way of thinking? The only way to truely find out what is in it is to pass it. Yah... ok. That is bull. The only way to see if your parachute is really in there is to jump out of the plane and pull the cord. Or, for the more simple analogy, The only true way to find out if that milk is bad is to drink it.

[red states rule]

how are they misguied? because they don't agree with it blindly? point it out. show us where and how we are wrong and I would bet that most people would go "oh, ok, guess I was wrong" (most, not the crazies). Are will you just go with Pelosi's way of thinking? The only way to truely find out what is in it is to pass it. Yah... ok. That is bull. The only way to see if your parachute is really in there is to jump out of the plane and pull the cord. Or, for the more simple analogy, The only true way to find out if that milk is bad is to drink it.

Pelosi summed up Obamacre perfectly, and the way most liberals like BP think

Pass Obamacre THEN you will find out how great it is

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[Gaffer]

Bully, I have a brown paper bag. It may contain something very valuable, or it may contain dog shit. Who knows. All you have to do to get the answer is give me all your money and property and I'll give you the bag. Hell of a deal for you isn't. I'm being just as honest and straight forward as polosi on this. what have you got to lose? You trust her don't you? It's a big bag.

[red states rule]

Bully, I have a brown paper bag. It may contain something very valuable, or it may contain dog shit. Who knows. All you have to do to get the answer is give me all your money and property and I'll give you the bag. Hell of a deal for you isn't. I'm being just as honest and straight forward as polosi on this. what have you got to lose? You trust her don't you? It's a big bag.

I wonder if BP is ready to pay the higher taxes. Or does he think somehow he will be exempt?


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[Gaffer]

I wonder if BP is ready to pay the higher taxes. Or does he think somehow he will be exempt?


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I'm sure he thinks he will be exempt.

[red states rule]

I'm sure he thinks he will be exempt.

Or he will cheat on his taxes and get a job in the Obama cabinet. BP could be Media Czar

[Gaffer]

Or he will cheat on his taxes and get a job in the Obama cabinet. BP could be Media Czar

He would love that, he could tell everyone what they can say. Maybe create new jobs by opening political prisons.

[glockmail]

My Gawd...Y'all make it sound like the watered-down, milque-toast health-care reform package making its tortured way through Congress is full blown, all out single payer, kill the insurance companies communism. All your protestations reveal is just how truly ignorant you really are of that which you are so loudly protesting.

Taking your cues, and your misguided talking points, from the GOP leadership and others, you cast those talking point about as uncritically as a drunken sailor on liberty casts his seed about. You fail to ask the most basic questions of both yourselves and the right-wing leadership you so slavishly follow. And more's the pity...ignorance such as yours, whether naive or willful, the lack of critical thought, the unquestioning acceptance of out-right lies, will be the death of the Republic. Not some outside enemy...just ignorant rubes, such as yourselves, who can be led by the nose like fatted calves to the slaughter...never realizing the threat until the bolt gin is pressed firmly against your forehead. But by then, it's too late.

Bully we don't want Chimpy Obama health care:

http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t345/Southernmanpics/ObamaCare.jpg

[bullypulpit]

As usual BP you rant in talking points, and never address what is in the bill. It is not lies when it is pointed out the biggest tax increase in history is in the bill. it is not a lie that premiums will go up. It is not a lie that emplyers will lay off workers rather then pay the higher taxes and higher costs

What is a lie is that Dems want to lower the cost, and Obamacare will cut the deficit

What is sad is that liberals like you have no desire to talk about these issues. but rather spin, attack, then get bored and leave the debate

<blockquote><i><b>projection:</i></b> A defense mechanism, operating unconsciously, in which what is emotionally unacceptable in the self is unconsciously rejected and attributed (projected) to others.</blockquote>

Project much?

[Missileman]

<blockquote><i><b>projection:</i></b> A defense mechanism, operating unconsciously, in which what is emotionally unacceptable in the self is unconsciously rejected and attributed (projected) to others.</blockquote>

Project much?

It may or may not be getting lost in spam, the other Red meat, but you've ignored my question 3 times now.

[bullypulpit]

Apples and oranges. But yes to your question.

As for my question to you, since you answered yes, I'll ask this: I assume then that you think it acceptable for someone to go to a junkyard, by a wrecked car for a few bucks, run down to an auto insurance store and buy a policy for it and then demand the insurer repair the wreck?

Sorry...It was lost in the spam. But to answer, your analogy is a false one. There is no equivocation between a junked car and a human life.

Secondly, If one can obtain insurance with a pre-existing condition, it is common practice for health insurers to keep raising premiums for the individual in question or their employer until one or the other is forced to drop the policy.

As I stated in my OP, health insurers have no compunction at all about raising prices and driving more and more individuals and employers out of the insurance market.

[Kathianne]

Bully, even pro-healthcare partisans are having problems what has become the 'save Obama' rather than a health care bill:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bd528a1e-2f87-11df-9153-00144feabdc0,dwp_uuid=b92c9d66-97df-11de-8d3d-00144feabdc0.html


A needed reform descends into farce
By Clive Crook
Published: March 14 2010 18:09 | Last updated: March 14 2010 18:09


Are the defenders of the Democratic party’s approach to healthcare reform irrepressible optimists, or self-deluding fantasists? I declare a personal stake in the issue, as one such defender myself. In that capacity, I only wish I could be more confident of the answer.

As the search for votes to pass a bill continues, the line taken by defenders of comprehensive healthcare reform goes like this. Yes, the public opposes the Democrats’ proposals, but it is the process more than the product that voters question. And though nobody would say the product was perfect, it is basically good.

According to this argument, pieces of the reform – rules to force insurers to ignore pre-existing conditions, subsidies to help the less well-off, and so on – are popular. But the past year’s wrangling has sown confusion. Voters are bored and bewildered. Once a bill is passed, they will come around to liking it.

And the bill is a big advance, defenders insist. Broadening healthcare coverage and making it more secure are ethical imperatives. The measure takes tentative but useful steps towards better control of costs: not enough, but better than nothing. If the effort stalls, the likely result is no reform at all. Just as in the 1990s, a grand attempt at healthcare reform will have been crushed. It might be 20 years before anybody tries again.

These arguments are correct, but there is a problem. The process, not the product, has indeed caused the failure. The trouble is, the process just keeps getting worse...

[Missileman]

Sorry...It was lost in the spam. But to answer, your analogy is a false one. There is no equivocation between a junked car and a human life.

As it pertains to insurance and pre-existing conditions, it is the PERFECT analogy. Insurance companies aren't charity organizations, they are businesses that have to operate at a profit to stay viable. To force them into situations where they are guaranteed a loss, and then suggest they are acting unethically for raising everyone's rates to offset that guaranteed loss is pretty stupid or highly naive.

Healthcare is not a right. Health insurance is not a right. Neither are home-ownership, car-ownership, a CEO's salary, etc. Our government(s) need to stop trying to bestow imaginary rights.

[red states rule]

<blockquote><i><b>projection:</i></b> A defense mechanism, operating unconsciously, in which what is emotionally unacceptable in the self is unconsciously rejected and attributed (projected) to others.</blockquote>

Project much?

Translation: I will not admit to massive taxes, higher costs, or layoffs of workers - so now I will ignore the facts and change the subject

Hope you are not "bored" after the midterm elections BP

Reading your rants about the stupidity and racism shown by voters will bring a smile to my face

[red states rule]

Sorry...It was lost in the spam. But to answer, your analogy is a false one. There is no equivocation between a junked car and a human life.

Secondly, If one can obtain insurance with a pre-existing condition, it is common practice for health insurers to keep raising premiums for the individual in question or their employer until one or the other is forced to drop the policy.

As I stated in my OP, health insurers have no compunction at all about raising prices and driving more and more individuals and employers out of the insurance market.

So should you be allowed to cancel your car insurance, have an accident, pick up the phone, and have an insurance company be forced to issue you a policy to cover the accident?

Government has no compunction to raising taxes, and forcing people out of their homes when they can't pay their property taxes. Or a person dies, and after spending their lives building wealth, the governent steps in, takes 50% of the estate - all becuase a person dies. Or when a person can't pay income taxes, the government can take their property, possessions, bank accounts, their cars, or anything else of value

Which one is worse BP?

Under this plan, the government wil run up the debt, and reports have shown - at the current rate Obama, Reid, and Pelosi is going - just the interest on the debt will cripple the US economy.

And you huys want to spend more?

This article is from Nov 2009 - and Obama has piled on even more spending since then




NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Here's a new way to think about the U.S. government's epic borrowing: More than half of the $9 trillion in debt that Uncle Sam is expected to build up over the next decade will be interest.

More than half. In fact, $4.8 trillion.

If that's hard to grasp, here's another way to look at why that's a problem.

In 2015 alone, the estimated interest due - $533 billion - is equal to a third of the federal income taxes expected to be paid that year, said Charles Konigsberg, chief budget counsel of the Concord Coalition, a deficit watchdog group.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/19/news/economy/debt_interest/index.htm

[bullypulpit]

As it pertains to insurance and pre-existing conditions, it is the PERFECT analogy. Insurance companies aren't charity organizations, they are businesses that have to operate at a profit to stay viable. To force them into situations where they are guaranteed a loss, and then suggest they are acting unethically for raising everyone's rates to offset that guaranteed loss is pretty stupid or highly naive.

Healthcare is not a right. Health insurance is not a right. Neither are home-ownership, car-ownership, a CEO's salary, etc. Our government(s) need to stop trying to bestow imaginary rights.

So how do liberty and the pursuit of happiness arise absent life? And the fact that insurance companies are profit making enterprises is not a bad thing...when it comes to real property. But when profit trumps human life, there is an inherent conflict which the health insurance companies have been resolving in favor of profit.

[red states rule]

So how do liberty and the pursuit of happiness arise absent life? And the fact that insurance companies are profit making enterprises is not a bad thing...when it comes to real property. But when profit trumps human life, there is an inherent conflict which the health insurance companies have been resolving in favor of profit.

It is damn near comical when liberals talk about putting life ahead of profits. when it is Dems who support abortion in exchange for votes

Why has Obamacre not passed yet BP? Due to Dems demands tax dollars go to fund abortions in a "health care bill"




Friday, March 12, 2010


snip


According to Stupak, that group of twelve pro-life House Democrats — the “Stupak dozen” — has privately agreed for months to vote ‘no’ on the Senate’s health-care bill if federal funding for abortion is included in the final legislative language. Now, in the debate’s final hours, Stupak says the other eleven are coming under “enormous” political pressure from both the White House and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D., Calif.). “I am a definite ‘no’ vote,” he says. “I didn’t cave. The others are having both of their arms twisted, and we’re all getting pounded by our traditional Democratic supporters, like unions.”

Stupak says he also doesn’t trust the “Slaughter solution,” a legislative maneuver being bandied about on Capitol Hill as a way to pass the Senate bill in the House without actually voting on it. “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me,” he says. “I don’t have a warm-and-fuzzy feeling about what I’m hearing.”

Stupak notes that his negotiations with House Democratic leaders in recent days have been revealing. “I really believe that the Democratic leadership is simply unwilling to change its stance,” he says. “Their position says that women, especially those without means available, should have their abortions covered.” The arguments they have made to him in recent deliberations, he adds, “are a pretty sad commentary on the state of the Democratic party.”

What are Democratic leaders saying? “If you pass the Stupak amendment, more children will be born, and therefore it will cost us millions more. That’s one of the arguments I’ve been hearing,” Stupak says. “Money is their hang-up. Is this how we now value life in America? If money is the issue — come on, we can find room in the budget. This is life we’re talking about.”

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MzU0MDYxMWEyOTdiNGU1OGU3ZjYzYmE3Y2ZlZDQ5NTY=

[Missileman]

So how do liberty and the pursuit of happiness arise absent life? And the fact that insurance companies are profit making enterprises is not a bad thing...when it comes to real property. But when profit trumps human life, there is an inherent conflict which the health insurance companies have been resolving in favor of profit.

People die every day and life goes on for those still alive. No amount of insurance will keep people from dying eventually. How many millions of dollars would be reasonably spent to extend the life of a person one day...one week...one year? Would you be willing to sell everything you own to extend the life of a stranger for a few hours? Less drastically, would you be willing for you and your family to live in poverty so that the government could give useless healthcare to hopeless cases?

[red states rule]

Hey BP you seem to be getting bored and not not replying to my posts. Well I am used to that by now

Here is another fact you can either try to spin or ignore




FACT CHECK: Premiums would rise under Obama plan
By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR (AP) – 20 hours ago

WASHINGTON — Buyers, beware: President Barack Obama says his health care overhaul will lower premiums by double digits, but check the fine print.

Premiums are likely to keep going up even if the health care bill passes, experts say. If cost controls work as advertised, annual increases would level off with time. But don't look for a rollback. Instead, the main reason premiums would be more affordable is that new government tax credits would help cover the cost for millions of people.

Listening to Obama pitch his plan, you might not realize that's how it works.

Visiting a Cleveland suburb this week, the president described how individuals and small businesses will be able to buy coverage in a new kind of health insurance marketplace, gaining the same strength in numbers that federal employees have.

"You'll be able to buy in, or a small business will be able to buy into this pool," Obama said. "And that will lower rates, it's estimated, by up to 14 to 20 percent over what you're currently getting. That's money out of pocket."


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iVn9wrhB-3SF-Svo9kZyXd4bHRLAD9EG84VO0

[glockmail]

Chimpy McBullyPulpit doesn't respond to your posts because he's lost every aspect of the debate, and too much of a wuss to admit it.

[red states rule]

Chimpy McBullyPulpit doesn't respond to your posts because he's lost every aspect of the debate, and too much of a wuss to admit it.

Like my liberal co-worker Blue State Rule, BP is a very sad and disillusioned liberal. Both were cocky, giddy, and enthusiastic after the election

They saw America being transformed and shaped into the liberal utopia they dream about

But like a splash of cold water in the face, reality is setting in. America is a left wing nation like France. People see they were suckered, and are pissed off at over being fliped off by politicans

Like Republicans in 2006, Dems will feel the wrath of the voters anger and disgust in November

BP will be the few that blame voters stupidity, racism, and impatience for the Dems loss

As well as Fox News, Rush, and Sean for "drowning out" the Dems message

[glockmail]

Like my liberal co-worker Blue State Rule, BP is a very sad and disillusioned liberal. Both were cocky, giddy, and enthusiastic after the election

They saw America being transformed and shaped into the liberal utopia they dream about

But like a splash of cold water in the face, reality is setting in. America is a left wing nation like France. People see they were suckered, and are pissed off at over being fliped off by politicans

Like Republicans in 2006, Dems will feel the wrath of the voters anger and disgust in November

BP will be the few that blame voters stupidity, racism, and impatience for the Dems loss

As well as Fox News, Rush, and Sean for "drowning out" the Dems message

You mean we're not lefties like France.

I remember when these libs were predicting the demise of conservatism while I was predicting Obama's destruction of the Democrat Party. :lol:

[red states rule]

You mean we're not lefties like France.

I remember when these libs were predicting the demise of conservatism while I was predicting Obama's destruction of the Democrat Party. :lol:

Very true Glock, Where are all those Obama supporters who said the Republican party was dead? We were told for about 3 months how Republicans needed to get away from Reagan conservatism

Conservatism is gone forever, and only outdated political Dinosaurs still buy into Reagan conservatism

When Dems lose, I have never heard anyone on the right say the Dem party was dead, or libs needed to move away from FDR liberalism

Once again, Dems are over reaching and trying to ram thru a far left agenda down the throats of voters. And the voters are fighting back

[glockmail]

Very true Glock, Where are all those Obama supporters who said the Republican party was dead? We were told for about 3 months how Republicans needed to get away from Reagan conservatism

Conservatism is gone forever, and only outdated political Dinosaurs still buy into Reagan conservatism

When Dems lose, I have never heard anyone on the right say the Dem party was dead, or libs needed to move away from FDR liberalism

Once again, Dems are over reaching and trying to ram thru a far left agenda down the throats of voters. And the voters are fighting back

The problem is that Republicans are stoopit enough to believe these fuckers. Just like Lucy and the Football. The libs set them up perfectly by touting McCain as The Man, then predictably tossed him under the bus once he became the GOP candidate.

[red states rule]

The problem is that Republicans are stoopit enough to believe these fuckers. Just like Lucy and the Football. The libs set them up perfectly by touting McCain as The Man, then predictably tossed him under the bus once he became the GOP candidate.

Yes, Republicans are foolish enough to think they can win over liberals. Only when it is crunch time, do they understand as the liberals were patting them on the back, all the were doing was finding the soft spot to stick the knife in

Like a former poster here, all that matters to most libs on election day is which candidate has a "D" at the end of their name

[bullypulpit]

Translation: I will not admit to massive taxes, higher costs, or layoffs of workers - so now I will ignore the facts and change the subject

Hope you are not "bored" after the midterm elections BP

Reading your rants about the stupidity and racism shown by voters will bring a smile to my face

It would seem that the CBO scoring shoots your right wing-nut talking points...er...I mean "facts"...down in flames. But it does seem that the facts, as they actually stand and not as you wish them to be, have a definite librul bias.

To quote Nelson Muntz...

<center><img src=http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/nelson-muntz.jpg></center>

[Kathianne]

It would seem that the CBO scoring shoots your right wing-nut talking points...er...I mean "facts"...down in flames. But it does seem that the facts, as they actually stand and not as you wish them to be, have a definite librul bias.

To quote Nelson Muntz...

<center><img src=http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/nelson-muntz.jpg></center>

BP, we all know that yesterday's report was preliminary; the final will be released 'Saturday or Sunday', conveniently. We'll see what that says, and unfortunately we'll mostly likely see reality v. projections in the long term.

[glockmail]

Government programs always end up costing 6 or 7 times more than predicted anyway. Once folks realize that they don't have to work to get insurance, they'll abuse the system.

[Missileman]

It would seem that the CBO scoring shoots your right wing-nut talking points...er...I mean "facts"...down in flames. But it does seem that the facts, as they actually stand and not as you wish them to be, have a definite librul bias.

To quote Nelson Muntz...

<center><img src=http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/nelson-muntz.jpg></center>

Bullshit...they are increasing spending by a trillion dollars over the next 10 years. If you think the 130 billion they are claiming will actually go toward reducing the deficit, well...I have this bridge...