What is a conservative?

[GW in Ohio]

What is a conservative?

It’s someone who will not support additional limits on gun acquisition and ownership, even assault weapons or automatic weapons. No matter how many atrocities are committed with guns, the right winger thinks we need fewer restrictions on guns, not more.

It’s someone who refuses to acknowledge that we are hated around the world as never before because of Mr. Bush’s invasion of Iraq, someone who thinks that if we persist in Iraq, we’ll eventually come out of there with a good result.

It’s someone who doesn’t think women should be allowed to have abortions.

It’s someone who never takes a world view, but always takes a US-centric view of things…someone who dislikes and distrusts the UN and thinks the United States should go it alone, if necessary, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks, because we know better than the snooty French, the shifty Russians and the treacherous Chinese.

It’s someone who can see the Israeli point of view, but not the Palestinian point of view.

It’s someone who is more comfortable with re-staging the Crusades than with reaching accommodations with the world’s Muslims.

It’s someone who thinks the Christian religion is inherently superior, not only to Islam, but also to Buddhism, Hinduism and other world religions.

It’s someone who actually believes that if we don’t “defeat the terrorists on the streets of Baghdad,” we’ll have to fight ‘em on the streets of Cleveland.

[stephanie]

:rolleyes:

[avatar4321]

What is a conservative?

It’s someone who will not support additional limits on gun acquisition and ownership, even assault weapons or automatic weapons. No matter how many atrocities are committed with guns, the right winger thinks we need fewer restrictions on guns, not more.

Do you honestly think we should create more obstacles for people defending themselves in the face of more violence? attrocities are committed with knives too, should we restrict them? Why should we put ourselves at the mercy of evil people?


It’s someone who refuses to acknowledge that we are hated around the world as never before because of Mr. Bush’s invasion of Iraq, someone who thinks that if we persist in Iraq, we’ll eventually come out of there with a good result.

Do you really have any evidence that the world hates us any more than it did before then? Do you honestly think we should care what others think of us? Thats the problem with liberalism its focused more on appearance then results. Youd rather look good than do good.


It’s someone who doesn’t think women should be allowed to have abortions.

Why would any sane and rational person think that women should be allowed to kill innocent children?


It’s someone who never takes a world view, but always takes a US-centric view of things…someone who dislikes and distrusts the UN and thinks the United States should go it alone, if necessary, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks, because we know better than the snooty French, the shifty Russians and the treacherous Chinese.

We do know whats better for us than the French, the Russians, and the Chinese. There is a reason we are the world super power. It's because we built our society in certain principles that have allowed us to excel. Unfortunately, liberals want to eliminate these principles from our culture. That isnt just dangerous to ourselves, but to the world because who is going to stand against evil if we are weak?


It’s someone who can see the Israeli point of view, but not the Palestinian point of view.

Not many rational people can see the world from a genocidal point of view, Thank God!


It’s someone who is more comfortable with re-staging the Crusades than with reaching accommodations with the world’s Muslims.

How do you accommodate with someone whose goal is to kill, rob, and oppress you?


It’s someone who thinks the Christian religion is inherently superior, not only to Islam, but also to Buddhism, Hinduism and other world religions.

Truth is always superior. And you find more truth in Christianity than any other religion.


It’s someone who actually believes that if we don’t “defeat the terrorists on the streets of Baghdad,” we’ll have to fight ‘em on the streets of Cleveland.

We will.

[Trigg]

What is a conservative?

It’s someone who will not support additional limits on gun acquisition and ownership, even assault weapons or automatic weapons. No matter how many atrocities are committed with guns, the right winger thinks we need fewer restrictions on guns, not more.

It’s someone who refuses to acknowledge that we are hated around the world as never before because of Mr. Bush’s invasion of Iraq, someone who thinks that if we persist in Iraq, we’ll eventually come out of there with a good result.

It’s someone who doesn’t think women should be allowed to have abortions.

It’s someone who never takes a world view, but always takes a US-centric view of things…someone who dislikes and distrusts the UN and thinks the United States should go it alone, if necessary, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks, because we know better than the snooty French, the shifty Russians and the treacherous Chinese.

It’s someone who can see the Israeli point of view, but not the Palestinian point of view.

It’s someone who is more comfortable with re-staging the Crusades than with reaching accommodations with the world’s Muslims.

It’s someone who thinks the Christian religion is inherently superior, not only to Islam, but also to Buddhism, Hinduism and other world religions.

It’s someone who actually believes that if we don’t “defeat the terrorists on the streets of Baghdad,” we’ll have to fight ‘em on the streets of Cleveland.

congratulations, you've taken a group of people that make up half the US population, and have many diverse oppinions about what you listed, and lumped them all together.

For the record, we are not sheep being lead by the nose. We disagree about the war, terrorism, muslims and believe it or not abortion.

Get over it and find a new soap box.

[gabosaurus]

Which right-wing source did you lift that from without crediting them?

[GW in Ohio]

Which right-wing source did you lift that from without crediting them?

It's all mine, Gabby.

And in response to the individual who asserted that conservatives make up half the US population.......dream on. I'd peg the number of conservatives at about 25%.

And by the way, the number of liberals is normally around 25%, but I think it's greater than that now. George Bush has been a poster boy for the Democratic party.

[gabosaurus]

I would say you are less of a true conservative and more of a right-wing fanatic. Those with similar views are America's answer to Muslim extremists.

[GW in Ohio]

I would say you are less of a true conservative and more of a right-wing fanatic. Those with similar views are America's answer to Muslim extremists.

Whatever they are, conservatives or right-wing fanatics, there are a lot of them....maybe 25% of the population. They all think Bush's Iraq policy is just dandy.

[gabosaurus]

Probably true. We have terrorist factions, they have terrorist factions.

[TheStripey1]

1) Do you honestly think we should create more obstacles for people defending themselves in the face of more violence? attrocities are committed with knives too, should we restrict them? Why should we put ourselves at the mercy of evil people?

2) Do you really have any evidence that the world hates us any more than it did before then? Do you honestly think we should care what others think of us? Thats the problem with liberalism its focused more on appearance then results. Youd rather look good than do good.

3) Why would any sane and rational person think that women should be allowed to kill innocent children?

4) We do know whats better for us than the French, the Russians, and the Chinese. There is a reason we are the world super power. It's because we built our society in certain principles that have allowed us to excel. Unfortunately, liberals want to eliminate these principles from our culture. That isnt just dangerous to ourselves, but to the world because who is going to stand against evil if we are weak?

5) Not many rational people can see the world from a genocidal point of view, Thank God!

6) How do you accommodate with someone whose goal is to kill, rob, and oppress you?

7) Truth is always superior. And you find more truth in Christianity than any other religion.

8) We will.

1) Is that what Jesus teaches you?

2) Well, we were looked up to before bush invaded Iraq and now we are not...

3) fetuses are not children... yet... what's worse? To kill the unborn fetus or have the child and then not give a damn about it?

My bottom line... it's a woman's body... it's her choice...

4) We are weak now, thanks to bush's invasion of a country that hadn't attacked us... and you can't blame that on the liberals...

5) do you support Israel or Palestine?

6) the muslims can say the same of us...

7) laffs... I don't think so...

8) I hope you're ready then, cuz bush hasn't done a damn thing to strengthen our porous borders... they could be streaming in and bush would never know...

[TheStripey1]

congratulations, you've taken a group of people that make up half the US population, and have many diverse oppinions about what you listed, and lumped them all together.

For the record, we are not sheep being lead by the nose. We disagree about the war, terrorism, muslims and believe it or not abortion.

Get over it and find a new soap box.

then why don't you seperate them out and disagree with him? what do you believe is different from what he stated he thinks you believe?

[TheStripey1]

It's all mine, Gabby.

And in response to the individual who asserted that conservatives make up half the US population.......dream on. I'd peg the number of conservatives at about 25%.

And by the way, the number of liberals is normally around 25%, but I think it's greater than that now. George Bush has been a poster boy for the Democratic party.


I figure you're correct in those numbers, GW... there are a lot more centrists than wingtips... too bad we don't have a party that caters to US instead of to the wingtips...

[theHawk]

What is a conservative?

It’s someone who will not support additional limits on gun acquisition and ownership, even assault weapons or automatic weapons. No matter how many atrocities are committed with guns, the right winger thinks we need fewer restrictions on guns, not more.

A conservative believes that 2nd Amendment is important to keep. Wouldn't go so far to say there shouldn't be any restrictions. Point in case, I think most conservatives would agree mentally ill people nor criminals shouldn't have unrestricted access to weapons.



It’s someone who refuses to acknowledge that we are hated around the world as never before because of Mr. Bush’s invasion of Iraq, someone who thinks that if we persist in Iraq, we’ll eventually come out of there with a good result.

I'd be the first to admit we are hated around the world, because of Iraq. But a conservative doesn't believe foreign policy should be formed on the opinion of the "world". And conservatism has nothing to do with whether or not we come out with a good result.




It’s someone who doesn’t think women should be allowed to have abortions.

Wrong. A conservative believes the people should decide about abortion, through the democratic process of the legislature. Not by a court citing a non-existant clause in the Constitution.



It’s someone who never takes a world view, but always takes a US-centric view of things…someone who dislikes and distrusts the UN and thinks the United States should go it alone, if necessary, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks, because we know better than the snooty French, the shifty Russians and the treacherous Chinese.

Perhaps, but non of those countries consider whats in our best interests when they make policy decisions for themselves, so why should we?



It’s someone who can see the Israeli point of view, but not the Palestinian point of view.

Wrong. The Israeli movement is their own political movement. A conservative would not believe we should give billions of U.S. tax dollars to a foreign country, year after year, decade after decade, to support their own political movement. A conservative would also acknowledge that Israel is far from being a "role model for the middle east", regardless of what the Bushes and Clintons would have you believe.



It’s someone who is more comfortable with re-staging the Crusades than with reaching accommodations with the world’s Muslims.

A conservative doesn't believe we should have to accommodate anything for Muslims. They have their own countries, they are welcome to stay there and accommodate themselves. As far as seizing Muslim land and keeping with the intentions of living there, only Israeli zionists are guilty of that, not American conservatives.




It’s someone who thinks the Christian religion is inherently superior, not only to Islam, but also to Buddhism, Hinduism and other world religions.

Perhaps we do, but thats because most conservatives are raised Christian or convert to Christianity. Any religious person is going to inherently feel his own religion is the right one, otherwise they wouldn't be in that religion.



It’s someone who actually believes that if we don’t “defeat the terrorists on the streets of Baghdad,” we’ll have to fight ‘em on the streets of Cleveland.
I think it might be more accurate to say conservatives believe foreign threats should be delt with a stern hand, not lax policy that "accommodates" them.

[loosecannon]

GW, I bet you posted that on three other boards this AM.

I refuse to participate in a discussion of what a conservative is if it ignores both the traditional and most modern defs.

There is a world of difference beteen being a conservative and thinking you are a conservative.

Most people who call themselves conservatives today know little about what the history of conservatism is.

The folks that you are refering to I usually refer to as faux-conservatives, NeoCalvinists, neocons or bushbots. None of which are perfect definitions either.

[theHawk]

The folks that you are refering to I usually refer to as faux-conservatives, NeoCalvinists, neocons or bushbots. None of which are perfect definitions either.

I'd say you are correct sir.

[avatar4321]

1) Is that what Jesus teaches you?

Yes, Yes it is


2) Well, we were looked up to before bush invaded Iraq and now we are not...

That's quite a fantasy you have there. They looked up to us sooo much that they flew planes into our buildings.


3) fetuses are not children... yet... what's worse? To kill the unborn fetus or have the child and then not give a damn about it?

My bottom line... it's a woman's body... it's her choice...

The woman made her choice when she opened her legs. as did the father.

You may like to pretend that a fetish is not a human life, but it doesnt change the fact that there is an independent human life there. And killing a child is always worse.


4) We are weak now, thanks to bush's invasion of a country that hadn't attacked us... and you can't blame that on the liberals...

No, we are weak because we have a major political party who refuses to do anything but oppose everything we try to do abroad. And we will be weak until we clean out the traitors in this nation.


5) do you support Israel or Palestine?

Um.. Israel of course. No good sane person would support genocide.. Why on earth would you want to?


6) the muslims can say the same of us...

No they couldnt because we arent doing that.


7) laffs... I don't think so...

Thankfully the truth isnt dependent on what you think. Its the same regardless.


8) I hope you're ready then, cuz bush hasn't done a damn thing to strengthen our porous borders... they could be streaming in and bush would never know...

He has done a hell of alot more than your side is doing. So you are really in no position to talk.

[avatar4321]

GW, I bet you posted that on three other boards this AM.

I refuse to participate in a discussion of what a conservative is if it ignores both the traditional and most modern defs.

There is a world of difference beteen being a conservative and thinking you are a conservative.

Most people who call themselves conservatives today know little about what the history of conservatism is.

The folks that you are refering to I usually refer to as faux-conservatives, NeoCalvinists, neocons or bushbots. None of which are perfect definitions either.

Nice attitude... you'll go far with the "holier than thou" attitude.

[loosecannon]

Nice attitude... you'll go far with the "holier than thou" attitude.

thanks but you assume wrong.

Attacking conservatives according to the vices of fauz conservatives only perpetuates the falacy of modern conservatism.

Modern conservatives are reactionaries, they are not conservative at all in the majority of cases.

[Trigg]

then why don't you seperate them out and disagree with him? what do you believe is different from what he stated he thinks you believe?

Why bother????

He's been on this board long enough to see that the people here have different oppinions on things.

Anything I have to say is going to be ignored and it's not going to change his oppinion.

[5stringJeff]

What is a conservative?

It’s someone who will not support additional limits on gun acquisition and ownership, even assault weapons or automatic weapons. No matter how many atrocities are committed with guns, the right winger thinks we need fewer restrictions on guns, not more.

It’s someone who refuses to acknowledge that we are hated around the world as never before because of Mr. Bush’s invasion of Iraq, someone who thinks that if we persist in Iraq, we’ll eventually come out of there with a good result.

It’s someone who doesn’t think women should be allowed to have abortions.

It’s someone who never takes a world view, but always takes a US-centric view of things…someone who dislikes and distrusts the UN and thinks the United States should go it alone, if necessary, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks, because we know better than the snooty French, the shifty Russians and the treacherous Chinese.

It’s someone who can see the Israeli point of view, but not the Palestinian point of view.

It’s someone who is more comfortable with re-staging the Crusades than with reaching accommodations with the world’s Muslims.

It’s someone who thinks the Christian religion is inherently superior, not only to Islam, but also to Buddhism, Hinduism and other world religions.

It’s someone who actually believes that if we don’t “defeat the terrorists on the streets of Baghdad,” we’ll have to fight ‘em on the streets of Cleveland.

I see TheHawk has already given you a point-by-point rebuttal. Personally, I like KarlMarx's (the DP member, not the Communist economist) definition of conservatism: Free Markets, Limited Government, Public Virtue, and Self Responsibility.

[theHawk]

I see TheHawk has already given you a point-by-point rebuttal. Personally, I like KarlMarx's (the DP member, not the Communist economist) definition of conservatism: Free Markets, Limited Government, Public Virtue, and Self Responsibility.

I agree with that. Though I don't believe in unrestricted Free Markets in the sense that we do business with countries that seriously undermine U.S. businesses through unfair business practices. In short I believe the same standards we hold our businesses to(employee benefits/environmental laws) should be applied equally to every business we deal with outside the U.S. Its highly unfair to make U.S. companies compete with companies producing the same products for much cheaper because they come from crappy countries with no or lax environmental laws and employee benefits.

[Hugh Lincoln]

The folks that you are refering to I usually refer to as faux-conservatives, NeoCalvinists, neocons or bushbots. None of which are perfect definitions either.

True. There is very little that is conservative about Bush, but it's to the advantage of liberals to tag a ridiculous failure of a president like him as one.

[Kathianne]

True. There is very little that is conservative about Bush, but it's to the advantage of liberals to tag a ridiculous failure of a president like him as one.

Could it be that you both do not have open minds? Could it be that some of us 'conservatives' do not fit your molds?

[loosecannon]

True. There is very little that is conservative about Bush, but it's to the advantage of liberals to tag a ridiculous failure of a president like him as one.


I think Bush advertises himself as a conservative.

[loosecannon]

Could it be that you both do not have open minds? Could it be that some of us 'conservatives' do not fit your molds?

To be a conservative you have to fit the mold of conservatism, whatever that means.

Conservatism has had many meanings. I use the one patterned after Goldwater conservatives.

Small gummit, fiscal conservancy, no entanglements in foreign affairs, responsibility and integrity in office, bill of rights, privacy rights, lower to noer taxes, states rights, individual rights.

What do you define conservatism as?

[manu1959]

It’s someone who will support limits on gun acquisition and ownership, even hunting and target weapons. The left winger thinks we need to abolish gun ownership.

It’s someone who refuses to acknowledge that we are hated around the world even before OBL decalred war on th US during the blow job years, someone who thinks that if we just negotiate and are nice, everyone will like us again.

It’s someone who thinks a 15 year old should be allowed to have an abortion.

It’s someone who only takes a world view, and never takes a US-centric view of things…someone who likes and trusts the UN and thinks the United States should never go it alone, if necessary, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks, because we do not know better than the sophisticated French, the trustworthy Russians and the friendly Chinese.

It’s someone who can not see the Israeli point of view, but can see the Palestinian point of view.

It’s someone who is not comfortable with the Crusades and would like to reaching accommodations with the world’s Muslims and forget that the moores were once in spain and vienna.

It’s someone who thinks the Christian religion is a threat, but that Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and other world religions should be accepted and taught in the public schools.

It’s someone who actually believes that we do not need to “defeat the terrorists on the streets of Baghdad,” because we will never have to fight ‘em on the streets of Cleveland as terrorisim is an invention of the right.

[gabosaurus]

I would hope that very few actual conservatives viewed themselves as narrow-minded, hateful and non-comprehending as the OP stated. Being a conservative should not comprise living in a cave and embracing 19th Century values.

[avatar4321]

I would hope that very few actual conservatives viewed themselves as narrow-minded, hateful and non-comprehending as the OP stated. Being a conservative should not comprise living in a cave and embracing 19th Century values.

Yeah those pesky 19th century values, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[GW in Ohio]

A conservative believes that 2nd Amendment is important to keep. Wouldn't go so far to say there shouldn't be any restrictions. Point in case, I think most conservatives would agree mentally ill people nor criminals shouldn't have unrestricted access to weapons.


I'd be the first to admit we are hated around the world, because of Iraq. But a conservative doesn't believe foreign policy should be formed on the opinion of the "world". And conservatism has nothing to do with whether or not we come out with a good result.



Wrong. A conservative believes the people should decide about abortion, through the democratic process of the legislature. Not by a court citing a non-existant clause in the Constitution.


Perhaps, but non of those countries consider whats in our best interests when they make policy decisions for themselves, so why should we?


Wrong. The Israeli movement is their own political movement. A conservative would not believe we should give billions of U.S. tax dollars to a foreign country, year after year, decade after decade, to support their own political movement. A conservative would also acknowledge that Israel is far from being a "role model for the middle east", regardless of what the Bushes and Clintons would have you believe.


A conservative doesn't believe we should have to accommodate anything for Muslims. They have their own countries, they are welcome to stay there and accommodate themselves. As far as seizing Muslim land and keeping with the intentions of living there, only Israeli zionists are guilty of that, not American conservatives.



Perhaps we do, but thats because most conservatives are raised Christian or convert to Christianity. Any religious person is going to inherently feel his own religion is the right one, otherwise they wouldn't be in that religion.


I think it might be more accurate to say conservatives believe foreign threats should be delt with a stern hand, not lax policy that "accommodates" them.

Hawk: Your response is the best one I've seen so far (I haven't read them all yet.) You don't come across as a wacko conservative, but rather as a reasonable one.

Some of the conservatives who've responded have been very defensive. This thread isn't intended to demean conservatives; it's intended to define them.

I take issue with you guys on most of the points mentioned, but then, reasonable people can differ without attacking one another. Probably the biggest differences I have with conservatives involve George Bush, and Iraq, and American foreign policy. I think the Bush presidency, and his invasion of Iraq, have set this country back immeasurably in the foreign policy area. I also believe the Iraq war has created and fomented terrorism, rather than ameliorating it.

[GW in Ohio]

I see TheHawk has already given you a point-by-point rebuttal. Personally, I like KarlMarx's (the DP member, not the Communist economist) definition of conservatism: Free Markets, Limited Government, Public Virtue, and Self Responsibility.

Jeff: The Hawk didn't rebut. He more or less agreed with my definition of a conservative and even added to it.

I think there's some validity to what some are saying, that the current crop of Bush loyalists are not conservatives. Maybe neocon is the best term for them.

[theHawk]

Probably the biggest differences I have with conservatives involve George Bush, and Iraq, and American foreign policy. I think the Bush presidency, and his invasion of Iraq, have set this country back immeasurably in the foreign policy area. I also believe the Iraq war has created and fomented terrorism, rather than ameliorating it.


Thats because Bush's approach wasn't what I would call conservative. In the good 'ol days we would had just bombed the country pillar to post. Although Bush's intentions are staright forward and well intended (bringing democracy to the ME), he fails to realize that in all likelyhood the Islamic culture is ill-equiped to handle freedom, because freedom of speech and critizism is virtually unallowed in Islam. Truth and Islam simply don't mix, and it would be hard pressed to establish a true democracy under those conditions. Perhaps they will be able to form some type of elected government, but it will never be a true democracy with unalienable rights like we have.

[TheStripey1]

Originally Posted by TheStripey1
1) Is that what Jesus teaches you?

Yes, Yes it is


2) Well, we were looked up to before bush invaded Iraq and now we are not...

That's quite a fantasy you have there. They looked up to us sooo much that they flew planes into our buildings.


3) fetuses are not children... yet... what's worse? To kill the unborn fetus or have the child and then not give a damn about it?

My bottom line... it's a woman's body... it's her choice...

The woman made her choice when she opened her legs. as did the father.

You may like to pretend that a fetish is not a human life, but it doesnt change the fact that there is an independent human life there. And killing a child is always worse.


4) We are weak now, thanks to bush's invasion of a country that hadn't attacked us... and you can't blame that on the liberals...

No, we are weak because we have a major political party who refuses to do anything but oppose everything we try to do abroad. And we will be weak until we clean out the traitors in this nation.


5) do you support Israel or Palestine?

Um.. Israel of course. No good sane person would support genocide.. Why on earth would you want to?


6) the muslims can say the same of us...
No they couldnt because we arent doing that.


8) I hope you're ready then, cuz bush hasn't done a damn thing to strengthen our porous borders... they could be streaming in and bush would never know...

He has done a hell of alot more than your side is doing. So you are really in no position to talk.

1) Got a link?

2) Yeah... and how many more countries helped us invade AFGHANISTAN than helped us invade Iraq?

3) a fetish is NOT a child... and neither is a fetus...

4) Traitors? You mean like those that lie us into war? Or those that oppose it?

5) Explain to me how you think Palestine is going to commit genocide on Israel? Do they have an army? no... Do they have tanks? no... do they have jets? no... do they have WMD? no...

All the palestinians have is a wall that bars them from using the land they USED to own... BEFORE the guilt ridden euros gave that land to the jews after not doing a thing to stop the holocaust...

what if you were Palestinian? Would you be happy that your olive grove now belongs to an israelite? would you be happy to live in the squalor of a refugee camp?

6) We aren't killing them? You're not reading much news these days are you ava...

8) I don't have a party, ava... I'm a centrist... an UNafilliated independent... so tell me... what has bush done to close the border?

specifically... not generalities... specifically...

[manu1959]

1)
All the palestinians have is a wall that bars them from using the land they USED to own... BEFORE the guilt ridden euros gave that land to the jews after not doing a thing to stop the holocaust...


dude...can you link me up to a map pre 1945 showing what the name of the country was prior to the "UN" giving it to israel....