My Kid invited Mormom Missionaries over

[chloe]

My kid told me yesterday that she invited Mormon Missionaries over to come talk about religion, but they said an adult has to be home, so I am having my ex husband deal with it. They invited her to a camp next weekend in Saint George. I don't even know where that came from. She's never been interested in religion before.

[glockmail]

We had a family of Mormons here for about two years. Nice folks.

[chloe]

We had a family of Mormons here for about two years. Nice folks.


But I don't want to have to go to church.:eek:

[glockmail]

But I don't want to have to go to church.:eek: Why not? Too busy?

[chloe]

Why not? Too busy?

well yeah i work on sundays for one thing, but for another church people aren't very nice.

[glockmail]

Personally I think a lot of folks are turned off from Christianity by the whole tithe thing. I have a friend who's relatively poor and a member of the Church of Christ, and they insist that all members file their tax returns, and they insist on 10% of gross. If not they are called on it during Sunday service.

That's all bullshit as far as I'm concerned. Some of these pastors have more money than they know what to do with. I've talked with accountants who handle some of these churches and they spend money on all kinds of shit. One church has a special fund to pay for the pastor's wife's wardrobe.

[chloe]

Personally I think a lot of folks are turned off from Christianity by the whole tithe thing. I have a friend who's relatively poor and a member of the Church of Christ, and they insist that all members file their tax returns, and they insist on 10% of gross. If not they are called on it during Sunday service.

That's all bullshit as far as I'm concerned. Some of these pastors have more money than they know what to do with. I've talked with accountants who handle some of these churches and they spend money on all kinds of shit. One church has a special fund to pay for the pastor's wife's wardrobe.

Yeah I only made $24,000 last year and I have two kids and no child support. Any money I might get back I'd rather keep, but then you have to feel guilty if your part of a church. Plus people at church judge you if you don't have fancy clothes.

[glockmail]

well yeah i work on sundays for one thing, but for another church people aren't very nice.

I ski on Sundays during the winter. I don't go every week, but I do go to most, on Saturday night. We Catholics have that little advantage. ;)

[chloe]

I ski on Sundays during the winter. I don't go every week, but I do go to most, on Saturday night. We Catholics have that little advantage. ;)

I don't think I ever went to a catholic church before, they have one out here and I always thought it would be neat to go to Midnight mass.

[glockmail]

Yeah I only made $24,000 last year and I have two kids and no child support. Any money I might get back I'd rather keep, but then you have to feel guilty if your part of a church. Plus people at church judge you if you don't have fancy clothes.

Find a different church if they are that way. There is a bible story where you are measured by the way you treat the least among you.

I don't tithe and never have, nor my parents or grandparents. We've never been asked to tithe. We typically give around 1% and the priest sends us a letter at the end of the year summarizing and thanking us for being so generous.

Catholic priests are sworn to poverty. As long as they have enough to heat the church and pay the mortgage and retirement benefits they tend to be a happy lot. My current pastor has two dogs and they take up most of his discretionary spending. And of course fund services like adoptions, care for battered women, and other Diocese needs.

[Monkeybone]

Personally I think a lot of folks are turned off from Christianity by the whole tithe thing. I have a friend who's relatively poor and a member of the Church of Christ, and they insist that all members file their tax returns, and they insist on 10% of gross. If not they are called on it during Sunday service.
That's all bullshit as far as I'm concerned. Some of these pastors have more money than they know what to do with. I've talked with accountants who handle some of these churches and they spend money on all kinds of shit. One church has a special fund to pay for the pastor's wife's wardrobe.

that right there is just a red flag.


i know that it says to give, but if you can't give because it is give or get bread I don't think you will be condemed. of course, you might get the "trust in the Lord and He will provide" said to you.

[chloe]

Find a different church if they are that way. There is a bible story where you are measured by the way you treat the least among you.

I don't tithe and never have, nor my parents or grandparents. We've never been asked to tithe. We typically give around 1% and the priest sends us a letter at the end of the year summarizing and thanking us for being so generous.

Catholic priests are sworn to poverty. As long as they have enough to heat the church and pay the mortgage and retirement benefits they tend to be a happy lot. My current pastor has two dogs and they take up most of his discretionary spending. And of course fund services like adoptions, care for battered women, and other Diocese needs.


yeah I work sundays and I just don't go to church. The mormons are nice, they have different wards but when I was married I went to church with my ex husbands family and it was fun, but then when I divorced people were kinda judgemental and then when I went to a different ward they were cliqueish and also some women acted like I should be trying to find a new man like church was a bar or something. So I stopped going. I just hope my kid doesn't convert and then everyone preach at me to get baptised.

[glockmail]

I don't think I ever went to a catholic church before, they have one out here and I always thought it would be neat to go to Midnight mass. Go and find out what its like. Non-Catholics cannot partake in communion, so either keep your seat during the procession or join it, and when you approach the server cross your arms with palms on your shoulders, bow your head and receive a simple blessing instead. It is a participatory mass, but aside from that you'll be able to figure out most everything else (or fake your way through it LOL).

It takes about 6 months of training for an adult to become Catholic. Its optional but well worth it.

[chloe]

Go and find out what its like. Non-Catholics cannot partake in communion, so either keep your seat during the procession or join it, and when you approach the server cross your arms with palms on your shoulders, bow your head and receive a simple blessing instead. It is a participatory mass, but aside from that you'll be able to figure out most everything else (or fake your way through it LOL).

It takes about 6 months of training for an adult to become Catholic. Its optional but well worth it.

Yeah that would make me a nervous wreck. LOL. I'd rather just read the bible at home privately. Someone at work who is a Baptist gave me a cool bible that is written in a modern way so i understand it pretty good. I don't think God cares what religion you are. Do you?

[glockmail]

Yeah that would make me a nervous wreck. LOL. I'd rather just read the bible at home privately. Someone at work who is a Baptist gave me a cool bible that is written in a modern way so i understand it pretty good. I don't think God cares what religion you are. Do you?As a Christian I think that He cares only that you believe in Christ and live accordingly.

As a Catholic I have found The Church and attending Mass has given me structure. Each mass has three readings, usually one from he old testament and always one from the Gospel. The weekly homily typically ties all three together and not always, but surprisingly often inspiring by tying in some facet of modern life.

I also know that Christ is present in my church but I have little doubt that He is in present in other Christian churches. I find it comforting to the point if necessity that I be in that setting with some regularity.

I've also met some nice folks, been given many opportunities to work with them in volunteer settings that I haven't had a lot of time so far with but may have in the future. Being in the same church for 13 years has also been interesting watching families grow and change, even if we don't know by name but recognize by sight.

[chloe]

As a Christian I think that He cares only that you believe in Christ and live accordingly.

As a Catholic I have found The Church and attending Mass has given me structure. Each mass has three readings, usually one from he old testament and always one from the Gospel. The weekly homily typically ties all three together and not always, but surprisingly often inspiring by tying in some facet of modern life.

I also know that Christ is present in my church but I have little doubt that He is in present in other Christian churches. I find it comforting to the point if necessity that I be in that setting with some regularity.

I've also met some nice folks, been given many opportunities to work with them in volunteer settings that I haven't had a lot of time so far with but may have in the future. Being in the same church for 13 years has also been interesting watching families grow and change, even if we don't know by name but recognize by sight.

Those are nice sentiments Glock, I'm glad you have that.

[glockmail]

The other thing that's cool is going to Mass in a different Diocese, or another country. I've been to Mass in Mexico and of course in Spanish but I knew what was going on. The priest was from Ireland and spoke Spanish with an Irish brogue! :lol:

[crin63]

Personally I think a lot of folks are turned off from Christianity by the whole tithe thing. I have a friend who's relatively poor and a member of the Church of Christ, and they insist that all members file their tax returns, and they insist on 10% of gross. If not they are called on it during Sunday service.

That's all bullshit as far as I'm concerned. Some of these pastors have more money than they know what to do with. I've talked with accountants who handle some of these churches and they spend money on all kinds of shit. One church has a special fund to pay for the pastor's wife's wardrobe.

Personally I give a minimum of 15% annually (not bragging or anything, just saying). We are an independent church and if we don't support it, the doors will close and there will no longer be a building to meet at. We don't want our pastor to have to work a job and why should he live at a poverty level, thats ridiculous. He puts in 7 days a week and he is on call 24 hours a day, everyones time is worth something. He was satellite engineer making very good money before he gave that up and went into the ministry 30+ years ago. Its just been the last 5 years that he has gotten back to a point where he could even buy a house.

I'm skeptical of any pastor who didn't have to give up something to be in the ministry. When I say, "something" I'm in reference to an already established and well paying career.


Yeah I only made $24,000 last year and I have two kids and no child support. Any money I might get back I'd rather keep, but then you have to feel guilty if your part of a church. Plus people at church judge you if you don't have fancy clothes.

You just haven't been to the right kind of church then chloe. We have a philosophy at our church. Its simple, just wear the best you have and why not if its supposed to be God's house. Its just decorum, which is greatly lacking in todays society. If the best you have is a pair of bib overalls without holes then where the one without holes. If you have a suit then where a suit, if you have a dress then where a dress. Just wear your best clothes whatever they may be. We understand that people have different financial situations.

[chloe]

I like Gospal music , I would go to a church that sings all the time.

[Jeff]

That 10 percent they talk of is 10 percent of your life in everything you do in ever day

I believe in give what you can, Crin I understand exactly what you are saying, but that is your choice, God didn't tell you ya have to give

I was born and raised Catholic, made my first holy communion and was even confirmed, then at the age of 21 I decided I wanted to get married and married the next month, I called and talked to the priest, he reminded me about being engaged for a year and the classes you had to attend, no way I could do that in a month, so he decided if I donated 1400 bucks to the church he would marry us, needless to say I was married at another church

That brings me to the Methodist religion , that is where I finally got married, I really liked this church, the preacher was great, I had a son that was born and died 2 days later, if it wasn't for this preacher I would still be in jail, but then that preacher was transferred and a new one came in, he wasn't as good as the first but not bad either, he did a lot of counseling , then one day I come to find out he ran off with of the woman he was counseling, that was married

I know go ( when I do go ) to a baptist church, yes they also believe in the 10 percent thing, but I give what I can

Moral of the story is there are good and bad in all religions and in my eyes they all pray to the same God, so call home where ya feel comfortable

[Abbey Marie]

Yeah I only made $24,000 last year and I have two kids and no child support. Any money I might get back I'd rather keep, but then you have to feel guilty if your part of a church. Plus people at church judge you if you don't have fancy clothes.

Depends on the church. Non-denoms are generally casual. I don't like to get dressed up for church. God doesn't care what I am wearing, and if others judge me based on my jeans (and flip-flops in summer), it's not the place for me.

[Abbey Marie]

Personally I think a lot of folks are turned off from Christianity by the whole tithe thing. I have a friend who's relatively poor and a member of the Church of Christ, and they insist that all members file their tax returns, and they insist on 10% of gross. If not they are called on it during Sunday service.

That's all bullshit as far as I'm concerned. Some of these pastors have more money than they know what to do with. I've talked with accountants who handle some of these churches and they spend money on all kinds of shit. One church has a special fund to pay for the pastor's wife's wardrobe.

Seriously?! That's outrageous. I am thinking of Jesus and the temple money changers.

[chloe]

Depends on the church. Non-denoms are generally casual. I don't like to get dressed up for church. God doesn't care what I am wearing, and if others judge me based on my jeans (and flip-flops in summer), it's not the place for me.

well thats not how the attitude is out here. But there's a girl at work and she's a baptist and she gave a "new hope" bible and then its only me n her and a guy that works on sunday, so she has assigned me a chapter to read and then on sunday we talk about it, its been more fun then church.

[Mr. P]

Seriously?! That's outrageous. I am thinking of Jesus and the temple money changers.

The tithe thing @ 10% is very common in the South. And the folks that attend those Churches are VERY serious about it too.

A friend of mine attends one of these Churches. I proposed a business venture to him as partners. He would only do so if 10% of profits went to the Church (his Church).

Needless to say we didn't become business partners.

[crin63]

The tithe thing @ 10% is very common in the South. And the folks that attend those Churches are VERY serious about it too.

A friend of mine attends one of these Churches. I proposed a business venture to him as partners. He would only do so if 10% of profits went to the Church (his Church).

Needless to say we didn't become business partners.

Were very serious about it at my church as well. Me personally, I wouldn't go into business with someone who I wasn't convinced was a Christian and I'm not easily convinced.

[Abbey Marie]

The tithe thing @ 10% is very common in the South. And the folks that attend those Churches are VERY serious about it too.

A friend of mine attends one of these Churches. I proposed a business venture to him as partners. He would only do so if 10% of profits went to the Church (his Church).

Needless to say we didn't become business partners.

They ask to see your tax returns?

[Mr. P]

Were very serious about it at my church as well. Me personally, I wouldn't go into business with someone who I wasn't convinced was a Christian and I'm not easily convinced.

A 10% tithe of business profits DOES NOT A CHRISTIAN MAKE.

[Mr. P]

They ask to see your tax returns?

Never got that far. If we had I'd have refused.

[chloe]

The other thing that's cool is going to Mass in a different Diocese, or another country. I've been to Mass in Mexico and of course in Spanish but I knew what was going on. The priest was from Ireland and spoke Spanish with an Irish brogue! :lol:

sounds fun. The mormon sunday service lasts 3 hours , I really only enjoyed Relief Society, sacrament is boring.

[Kathianne]

Find a different church if they are that way. There is a bible story where you are measured by the way you treat the least among you.

I don't tithe and never have, nor my parents or grandparents. We've never been asked to tithe. We typically give around 1% and the priest sends us a letter at the end of the year summarizing and thanking us for being so generous.

Catholic priests are sworn to poverty. As long as they have enough to heat the church and pay the mortgage and retirement benefits they tend to be a happy lot. My current pastor has two dogs and they take up most of his discretionary spending. And of course fund services like adoptions, care for battered women, and other Diocese needs.

Not all Catholic priests take a vow of poverty:

http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/priesthood/index.htm#4


Do all Catholic priests take a vow of poverty?

No, they do not. Priests who are members of religious communities (and lay men and women who belong to such communities) make vows to God of poverty, chastity and obedience. However, the diocesan clergy (the usual parish priests and other priests who belong to a diocese rather than to a religious order) may own, inherit, invest and control their own possessions and are responsible for their own insurance, taxes, etc. Diocesan priests at their ordination make solemn promises of chaste celibacy for the love of God and of obedience to their Bishop. They are also bound, by their state in life, to live simply and frugally, but they have no vow of poverty. The vow of poverty made by religious (both clerics and lay) does not oblige them to live in destitution and penury, but means they give up, for the love of God, the right to private property, which is owned in common by the religious order or community to which they belong. Unless diocesan priests were to receive some family money inheritance, they normally have very little by way of personal possessions, except per haps their cars, which they usually need for their pastoral work. If diocesan priests, given their education and talents, had worldly careers, they would undoubtedly be financially rich. However, they cheerfully live on little income and often even give much of that away to the poor.

Reprinted from December 3, 1999

[PostmodernProphet]

My kid told me yesterday that she invited Mormon Missionaries over to come talk about religion, but they said an adult has to be home, so I am having my ex husband deal with it. They invited her to a camp next weekend in Saint George. I don't even know where that came from. She's never been interested in religion before.

likely, she's interested in a camp at Saint George.....

[PostmodernProphet]

well yeah i work on sundays for one thing, but for another church people aren't very nice.

amazing.....if you're so busy how did you manage to visit every church?......

[PostmodernProphet]

Yeah that would make me a nervous wreck. LOL. I'd rather just read the bible at home privately. Someone at work who is a Baptist gave me a cool bible that is written in a modern way so i understand it pretty good. I don't think God cares what religion you are. Do you?

/grins....I think he frowns on Satanism, for example.....

[chloe]

likely, she's interested in a camp at Saint George.....


well you don't have to invite mormon missionaries over to go to camp

[PostmodernProphet]

well you don't have to invite mormon missionaries over to go to camp

/shrugs....the way it sounded in the OP they were coming to get parental consent for her to go to the camp.....I say wait till after they leave to decide if they came to proselytize.....

as to the other, you might find something like this interesting if there is one near you....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church

[chloe]

/shrugs....the way it sounded in the OP they were coming to get parental consent for her to go to the camp.....I say wait till after they leave to decide if they came to proselytize.....

as to the other, you might find something like this interesting if there is one near you....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church

That actually looks interesting, I will look more into it.

[Trinity]

Yeah that would make me a nervous wreck. LOL. I'd rather just read the bible at home privately. Someone at work who is a Baptist gave me a cool bible that is written in a modern way so i understand it pretty good. I don't think God cares what religion you are. Do you?

I would highly recommend if you go, go on a Saturday night there not dressed up........

and make sure if you take your 1 year old infant and shove a bottle in his mouth to keep him quiet during the service he doesn't finish it and then wiz it across 3 pews almost hitting someone in the head......Yeah that was Jesse my 11 year old now, and needless to say that was my 1st and last time to that church....I was so embarrassed! It's funny now but it wasn't then.:laugh2:

[chloe]

I would highly recommend if you go, go on a Saturday night there not dressed up........

and make sure if you take your 1 year old infant and shove a bottle in his mouth to keep him quiet during the service he doesn't finish it and then wiz it across 3 pews almost hitting someone in the head......Yeah that was Jesse my 11 year old now, and needless to say that was my 1st and last time to that church....I was so embarrassed! It's funny now but it wasn't then.:laugh2:

:laugh2:

[Abbey Marie]

well thats not how the attitude is out here. But there's a girl at work and she's a baptist and she gave a "new hope" bible and then its only me n her and a guy that works on sunday, so she has assigned me a chapter to read and then on sunday we talk about it, its been more fun then church.

Sounds like an informal Bible study, Chloe. I think that's a great idea for you.

[PostmodernProphet]

and then its only me n her and a guy that works on sunday, so she has assigned me a chapter to read and then on sunday we talk about it, its been more fun then church.

but that IS church....
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

[BoogyMan]

Personally I think a lot of folks are turned off from Christianity by the whole tithe thing. I have a friend who's relatively poor and a member of the Church of Christ, and they insist that all members file their tax returns, and they insist on 10% of gross. If not they are called on it during Sunday service.

That's all bullshit as far as I'm concerned. Some of these pastors have more money than they know what to do with. I've talked with accountants who handle some of these churches and they spend money on all kinds of shit. One church has a special fund to pay for the pastor's wife's wardrobe.

Interesting. The instruction from the New Testament about giving can be found in 1 Cor 16:1-2.


1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

and in II Cor 9:7.


Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Any attempt to go outside of that instruction by the church is error. The tithe is never called for in the New Testament.

[chloe]

amazing.....if you're so busy how did you manage to visit every church?......

I didn't always work sundays my whole life, but I haven't visited every church, only mormon, presbytarian, and I think it was episcapalian, and a baptist one too. But mostly mormon.

[chloe]

Sounds like an informal Bible study, Chloe. I think that's a great idea for you.


Yeah I like it.

[Jeff]

Yeah that would make me a nervous wreck. LOL. I'd rather just read the bible at home privately. Someone at work who is a Baptist gave me a cool bible that is written in a modern way so i understand it pretty good. I don't think God cares what religion you are. Do you?

Chloe as most know I am a long distance trucker, I am usually not home on Sundays but have been told by many preachers you can still follow Gods ways without going to a church, and as I have already posted many churches are all politics and filled with hypocrites , Know don't get me wrong, there are a lot of very good people in those churches also, but yes you can be as religious if not more than some that go to church every Sunday just by reading your Bible and living your life right

Churches make a family, but I have found very few that I would actually own up to as my family:eek:

[crin63]

A 10% tithe of business profits DOES NOT A CHRISTIAN MAKE.

You're are absolutely correct. The Bible says for Christians not to be unequally yoked. That would apply to business as well as marriage.


but that IS church....
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

You're taking that out of context. That scripture was in reference to church discipline and Jesus was giving his approval for 2 or 3 to act on his behalf to remove an unrepentant sinning member from the congregation as though he was there doing it himself. Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, no where else.

By the way there has to be a church in order for their to be discipline. A church is not a building but it is a scripturally baptized local group of believers.

[crin63]

Interesting. The instruction from the New Testament about giving can be found in 1 Cor 16:1-2.
and in II Cor 9:7.



Any attempt to go outside of that instruction by the church is error. The tithe is never called for in the New Testament.

However in the New Testament it says that the Old Testament is given for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness.

The tithe was never set aside in the New Testament. It was an applied command that continued. No where does it say that to quit tithing.

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[crin63]

However in the New Testament it says that the Old Testament is given for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness.

The tithe was never set aside in the New Testament. It was an applied command that continued. No where does it say that to quit tithing.

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I would also argue that Christ did say people should tithe.

Luk 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
Luk 11:40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?
Luk 11:41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luk 11:43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.
Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

When the King says you ought to do something, I'm thinking its more of a command than a suggestion.

[chloe]

I would also argue that Christ did say people should tithe.

Luk 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
Luk 11:40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?
Luk 11:41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luk 11:43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.
Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

When the King says you ought to do something, I'm thinking its more of a command than a suggestion.

I don't tithe

[crin63]

I don't tithe

Okay

[PostmodernProphet]

You're taking that out of context. That scripture was in reference to church discipline and Jesus was giving his approval for 2 or 3 to act on his behalf to remove an unrepentant sinning member from the congregation as though he was there doing it himself. Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, no where else.

I'm sorry Crin, but I refuse to even consider any church that would try to turn the words of Christ into some direction for "discipline"......you need to stop storing your Bible in your anus and get out and spread GOOD news instead of BAD news....

[PostmodernProphet]

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

the way I look at it, but posting what you did you became a Pharisee.....

[crin63]

I'm sorry Crin, but I refuse to even consider any church that would try to turn the words of Christ into some direction for "discipline"......you need to stop storing your Bible in your anus and get out and spread GOOD news instead of BAD news....

You can take all you progressive beliefs and refuse all you want too, but it doesn't change what He was talking about. You have to consider what He said in its proper context.

Jesus was talking to His disciples when he said this. Jesus being the High Priest and His disciples being the 1st church.

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

[crin63]

the way I look at it, but posting what you did you became a Pharisee.....

What applied to Scribes and Pharisees applied to all. They were just labeled groups of people like Democrats and Republicans.

[BoogyMan]

However in the New Testament it says that the Old Testament is given for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness.

The tithe was never set aside in the New Testament. It was an applied command that continued. No where does it say that to quit tithing.

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You miss the fact, however, that we are no longer under the schoolmaster that is the Old Testament.


21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Timothy is being instructed to remember what he has been taught, most likely at the feet of the Apostles. You cannot, in light of the truth of the passages above, conclude that we are still under the Old Law instruction to tithe.

[PostmodernProphet]

You can take all you progressive beliefs and refuse all you want too, but it doesn't change what He was talking about. You have to consider what He said in its proper context.

Jesus was talking to His disciples when he said this. Jesus being the High Priest and His disciples being the 1st church.

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

that's fine....you go ahead and build your church based upon your beliefs.....you and the handful of people you will attract will have a good time, I'm sure.....

[PostmodernProphet]

What applied to Scribes and Pharisees applied to all. They were just labeled groups of people like Democrats and Republicans.

as I recall, they were a bit more than that....they were the people Jesus condemned for their attitude about the law and discipline.....

[chloe]

If you don't tithe what is the consequence? Why does God need my money when I already don't have very much?

[BoogyMan]

If you don't tithe what is the consequence? Why does God need my money when I already don't have very much?

There is no penatly for not tithing, man should give "as purposed in his own heart." That does indicate that one should give, but there is also instruction to give as prospered. If you are not prospered you cannot be required to give as if you had prospered.

1 and II Corinthians are pretty clear on these issues.

[chloe]

There is no penatly for not tithing, man should give "as purposed in his own heart." That does indicate that one should give, but there is also instruction to give as prospered. If you are not prospered you cannot be required to give as if you had prospered.

1 and II Corinthians are pretty clear on these issues.

I made $24,000 last year but since I don't get child support I think it would be hard to give 10 percent of that I have two kids to support. I did donate for the Haiti relief fund at work though.

[PostmodernProphet]

I made $24,000 last year but since I don't get child support I think it would be hard to give 10 percent of that I have two kids to support. I did donate for the Haiti relief fund at work though.

there is a story in scripture that answers that....
Mark 12:41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,[j]worth only a fraction of a penny.[k]

43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."

[Mr. P]

there is a story in scripture that answers that....
Mark 12:41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,[j]worth only a fraction of a penny.[k]

43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."

But did he tell her to keep her money because she couldn't afford to give it away?

[chloe]

But did he tell her to keep her money because she couldn't afford to give it away?

I think Jesus kept the money. But why would he need money?

[crin63]

You miss the fact, however, that we are no longer under the schoolmaster that is the Old Testament.

Timothy is being instructed to remember what he has been taught, most likely at the feet of the Apostles. You cannot, in light of the truth of the passages above, conclude that we are still under the Old Law instruction to tithe.

Any time in the New Testament that the scriptures are referenced it is talking about the Old Testament because at that time those were the only scriptures they had. It wasn't until 356 AD that the books of the New Testament were added to give us the Bible we have today.

So I guess we toss out the 10 commandments also then, huh? Are you saying they are just something to consider and no more commandments then?

[crin63]

But did he tell her to keep her money because she couldn't afford to give it away?

No, He didn't tell her to keep her money. No one afford to tithe, financially speaking. He wouldn't tell her to rob God.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.




I think Jesus kept the money. But why would he need money?

Jesus didn't actually touch that money. It was for the upkeep of the synagogue.

Properly understood the tithe is already God's that has been put in your charge to give back to Him. Yeah I know people want to change it so they can keep their money just like they don't think that church is important so they can do what is right in their own eyes and not miss out on the fun or actually have to do something.

[crin63]

that's fine....you go ahead and build your church based upon your beliefs.....you and the handful of people you will attract will have a good time, I'm sure.....

My church is continually growing. Its slow because we are actually concerned about every soul that walks through the doors. We could easily have become a Mega-Church if we through the Bible aside but we find out what the Bible says and base our beliefs on that instead of twisting the scriptures trying find what makes us comfortable.


as I recall, they were a bit more than that....they were the people Jesus condemned for their attitude about the law and discipline.....

You're right, they were more, they were actually Lawyers and Priests.

It doesn't matter who they were or what they were, the command to tithe applied to them just as it did to everyone else. You just don't like it so you are trying to redirect away from the truth.

[chloe]

No, He didn't tell her to keep her money. No one afford to tithe, financially speaking. He wouldn't tell her to rob God.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.





Jesus didn't actually touch that money. It was for the upkeep of the synagogue.

Properly understood the tithe is already God's that has been put in your charge to give back to Him. Yeah I know people want to change it so they can keep their money just like they don't think that church is important so they can do what is right in their own eyes and not miss out on the fun or actually have to do something.

Thanks for explaining the money reason. You think people don't go to church because they want to have fun? In todays world some people work on Sundays.I work on sundays so I don't go. But if my schedule changes and I have sundays off I would try to find a church I like. I don't even have a religion yet, but what Abbey said makes sense to me.This girl from gave me a bible and on sundays we discuss a story we read from it, she explains it in a way that makes sense.

[PostmodernProphet]

But did he tell her to keep her money because she couldn't afford to give it away?

wouldn't that be an interference with her choices?.....Jesus had argument once with Judas over a woman pouring scented oil over his feet.....Judas said it could have been sold and the money given to the poor....Jesus criticized Judas for interfering with the woman's choices.....besides, Judas' comment makes it appear that they made a habit of giving to the poor, perhaps instead of telling her to keep her money he simply gave her food of greater value.....certainly he gave her something of greater value in the end.....

the point is, if Jesus didn't consider it HIS job, then it certainly isn't YOUR job or your church's to tell her how much of what she had she should give to God......whether it be too much or too little.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I think Jesus kept the money. But why would he need money?
she gave the money to the temple, not to Jesus....

[Mr. P]

No, He didn't tell her to keep her money. No one afford to tithe, financially speaking. He wouldn't tell her to rob God.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.





Jesus didn't actually touch that money. It was for the upkeep of the synagogue.

Properly understood the tithe is already God's that has been put in your charge to give back to Him. Yeah I know people want to change it so they can keep their money just like they don't think that church is important so they can do what is right in their own eyes and not miss out on the fun or actually have to do something.

Sounds like the IRS to me.

[PostmodernProphet]

My church is continually growing. Its slow because we are actually concerned about every soul that walks through the doors. We could easily have become a Mega-Church if we through the Bible aside but we find out what the Bible says and base our beliefs on that instead of twisting the scriptures trying find what makes us comfortable.


are you afraid of a mega-heaven?....if not, why be afraid of a mega-church?....



You just don't like it so you are trying to redirect away from the truth.

I'm sorry, but I don't see much difference between a Pharisee saying "So long as you never travel more than 100 paces from property that you own you have honored the Sabbath".....and a church that says to be saved you need to believe in Jesus Christ as your personal savior......and pay not 9 but 10% of what you have to the church....and get baptized a particular way.....and use only organs and not drums in the worship service......and keep women away from the pulpit......and whatever we come up with next week......that is what I believe "redirecting away from the truth" looks like.....

[crin63]

Thanks for explaining the money reason. You think people don't go to church because they want to have fun? In todays world some people work on Sundays.I work on sundays so I don't go. But if my schedule changes and I have sundays off I would try to find a church I like. I don't even have a religion yet, but what Abbey said makes sense to me.This girl from gave me a bible and on sundays we discuss a story we read from it, she explains it in a way that makes sense.

I completely understand your financial position. I've been there. For me, that's where faith came into play (obviously after I became a Christian). I trusted God to meet my families needs and He never let me down.

I am the sole provider for my family and there was a time when I was providing for a family of 5 on $35k a year. Keep in mind that I am in Los Angeles. I wouldn't work out of town or Sundays so the companies I worked for penalized me for it, even though I told them up front. At that time I would've made over $600 a day just for working Sundays. So because I wouldn't work Sundays they wouldn't give me any overtime but God is faithful and met my families needs.

I suggest finding an Independent Baptist Church. If that interests you, shoot me a PM and I can give probably find one for you.

[crin63]

are you afraid of a mega-heaven?....if not, why be afraid of a mega-church?....

I'm sorry, but I don't see much difference between a Pharisee saying "So long as you never travel more than 100 paces from property that you own you have honored the Sabbath".....and a church that says to be saved you need to believe in Jesus Christ as your personal savior......and pay not 9 but 10% of what you have to the church....and get baptized a particular way.....and use only organs and not drums in the worship service......and keep women away from the pulpit......and whatever we come up with next week......that is what I believe "redirecting away from the truth" looks like.....

I'm not willing to compromise what the Bible clearly states to build a mega-church where people can feel all warm and fuzzy on their way to hell. We preach the truth in love. But apparently the truth doesn't really matter to you so long as everyone has a warm and fuzzy feeling.

I see that you are as Liberal a theologian as MFM. There is only one way to be saved, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Since you don't get that I'm not at all surprised you don't get the rest, its all foolishness to you (1 Cor. 2:14).

[Mr. P]

I'm not willing to compromise what the Bible clearly states to build a mega-church where people can feel all warm and fuzzy on their way to hell. We preach the truth in love. But apparently the truth doesn't really matter to you so long as everyone has a warm and fuzzy feeling.

I see that you are as Liberal a theologian as MFM. There is only one way to be saved, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Since you don't get that I'm not at all surprised you don't get the rest, its all foolishness to you (1 Cor. 2:14).

Yes, so why does your church impose other requirements like mandatory attendance and the long vetting of potential members?
You posted that yourself awhile ago.

These additional items are (IMO) what keeps many away from organized church/religion . I'd go as far as saying your church is not a mega church and could never be one because of these policies.

Our way or the highway is not what it's all about.

[PostmodernProphet]

I'm not willing to compromise what the Bible clearly states to build a mega-church where people can feel all warm and fuzzy on their way to hell. We preach the truth in love. But apparently the truth doesn't really matter to you so long as everyone has a warm and fuzzy feeling.

I see that you are as Liberal a theologian as MFM. There is only one way to be saved, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Since you don't get that I'm not at all surprised you don't get the rest, its all foolishness to you (1 Cor. 2:14).

???....so if people only believe in Jesus Christ as their savior but make the mistake of attending a mega-church that doesn't keep track of their tithing and let women preach then they are on their way to hell?....
and you say there is something that I don't get?....fill me in.....
and yeah, we all know I'm one of the worst liberals around here....../chuckle.....

[PostmodernProphet]

ironically, our sermon this morning was the beginning of a series on those things which keep us a hostage to our sin.....

the opening was pride and the passage the minister used was Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

[chloe]

I completely understand your financial position. I've been there. For me, that's where faith came into play (obviously after I became a Christian). I trusted God to meet my families needs and He never let me down.

I am the sole provider for my family and there was a time when I was providing for a family of 5 on $35k a year. Keep in mind that I am in Los Angeles. I wouldn't work out of town or Sundays so the companies I worked for penalized me for it, even though I told them up front. At that time I would've made over $600 a day just for working Sundays. So because I wouldn't work Sundays they wouldn't give me any overtime but God is faithful and met my families needs.

I suggest finding an Independent Baptist Church. If that interests you, shoot me a PM and I can give probably find one for you.

Thanks Crin the girl at work who gave me the new hope bible is a baptist but she works on sunday too. She explains different stories from it to me on sunday and we have a good a time at work discussing it.

[crin63]

Yes, so why does your church impose other requirements like mandatory attendance and the long vetting of potential members?
You posted that yourself awhile ago.

These additional items are (IMO) what keeps many away from organized church/religion . I'd go as far as saying your church is not a mega church and could never be one because of these policies.

Our way or the highway is not what it's all about.

The Bible says Christians should not to forsake gathering together, that stewards are faithful, we are to comfort one another, exhort one another, obey them which have the rule over you, and on and on and on. Those things cant be accomplished if people aren't at church. It also says that people who leave their church are unregenerate and that's why they leave so everyone can see what they really are, lost men.

Because of all the progressive and liberal tendencies of most churches we make people wait so they can actually see what we do and what we believe so they can make an educated decision about whether they really want to be a part of us. There's also the part about people who leave other churches aren't actually saved or they would stay in their church. So when we have someone come in we just figure its someone in need of salvation and members are supposed to be Christians. We don't accept transfers because people should be faithful in their own churches and that doesn't fulfill the great commission to go out and seek the lost. We are an evangelistic church seeking the lost that we might introduce them Jesus.

Why would we want to have someone get involved in our kids lives, let our kids learn to love them and look up to them for them to just abandon them for another church or job. It takes years for the kids to get over that and it causes the kids to question whether Jesus is really all that great since this person or that person who they looked up too and thought was a Christian just bailed on them for no apparent reason. I've seen it all too many times, I see the scars it leaves, I see distrust they start to develop for people, I see their wounded spirits and I for one am not going to invite that into our lives just so we can do things the progressive way.

How can someone be accountable if they just up an leave. Oh I know, none of this is popular today with everyone wanting to do what is right in his own eyes but its Biblical.

If a member, not just a casual attender misses 4 Sundays in a row they can be removed from our roles as members unless they made contact with our pastor and/or deacons to advise them of what was/is going on. I don't know of that actually happening but it's in our Constitution.

The main reasons people stay away from organized religion is so they don't have to be accountable to anyone, can do whatever is right in their own eyes instead of what is Biblical, they don't feel like they need to tithe, they can just up and leave any time they want without having to feel any sense of guilt for not being at church or abandoning those who they serving along side, if they are serving at all.

[chloe]

Your church is strict Crin. Do you have a lot of members?

[Kathianne]

Your church is strict Crin. Do you have a lot of members?

Chloe, sorry to change the discussion, but how did the meeting at house go with the Mormons? I missed it if posted.

[chloe]

Chloe, sorry to change the discussion, but how did the meeting at house go with the Mormons? I missed it if posted.


well we have all been sick this week, really really sick. So anyway my kid didn't meet with them. They left a note on the door. I worked all week even though I'm really not well. I have insomnia, maybe from the sickness or medicine. But I will update when they come again after we are all better.

[Kathianne]

well we have all been sick this week, really really sick. So anyway my kid didn't meet with them. They left a note on the door. I worked all week even though I'm really not well. I have insomnia, maybe from the sickness or medicine. But I will update when they come again after we are all better.

Thanks, I understand, bit of a relapse here too, though I've kept going to work. Wish it was a 3 day weekend. Oh, chaperoning dance tonight. :( Just remembered.

[chloe]

Thanks, I understand, bit of a relapse here too, though I've kept going to work. Wish it was a 3 day weekend. Oh, chaperoning dance tonight. :( Just remembered.

Im off today and tomorrow but I feel all sick still. Also can't sleep well.

[PostmodernProphet]

It also says that people who leave their church are unregenerate and that's why they leave so everyone can see what they really are, lost men.

?????.......where?....

[crin63]

Your church is strict Crin. Do you have a lot of members?

My church is growing and solid. We have about 150-175 people attending regularly on Sunday mornings (with about 3-6 guests nearly every Sunday). We have about 80%-90% of that Sunday night, Wednesday nights we have about 120 and Saturday nights we have an average of about 80 people show up.

The church is the actual members. Its not the total number of attendees. We are seeing several people come to Christ every year which adds to our membership.

[crin63]

?????.......where?....

The us being talked about are Christians.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jn 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

[avatar4321]

But I don't want to have to go to church.:eek:

Who said you have to?

[avatar4321]

/grins....I think he frowns on Satanism, for example.....

I agree with you on that LOL

[avatar4321]

If you don't tithe what is the consequence? Why does God need my money when I already don't have very much?

This is an interesting topic. Probably better for a separate thread.

[avatar4321]

well we have all been sick this week, really really sick. So anyway my kid didn't meet with them. They left a note on the door. I worked all week even though I'm really not well. I have insomnia, maybe from the sickness or medicine. But I will update when they come again after we are all better.

I hope you feel better soon Chloe

[PostmodernProphet]

The us being talked about are Christians.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jn 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

but you stated that people were unregenerate if they left "their church"....obviously the concept of "Christians" is broader than a single congregation......where do you find the biblical justification for condemning people who leave church A to attend church B?.......

[chloe]

I hope you feel better soon Chloe


Thanks me too, my kids are both sick for a whole week now and since i'm sick too its getting on my nerves.:laugh2:

[LiberalNation]

hmmm, just found this thread, mormons got some wacky ideas and some wouldn't consider them christian at all.

[Noir]

I knew very little about the mormons before Reading this thread and looking into them a bit, quite why anyone gives credit an organisation that were so openly racist I'll never know, but I guess that's how religion works.

[PostmodernProphet]

so, did the daughter go to camp?.....

[bullypulpit]

The bible-thumpers came a knockin' at our door, offering to bring Jesus into our home, I says ta dem:

"Okay, he can come in. But y'all have to stay outside."

They had confused looks on their faces and blinked at me a couple of times, and I closed the door before they had a chance to compose a reply. They haven't been back since.

[chloe]

so, did the daughter go to camp?.....

Thanks no she didnt go to camp because she got sick, but she went to something called General Conference yesterday as a matter of fact, and they gave her a bible and book of mormon and something I think doctrine and convenants, she said matter of factly to me that studies have shown people who read the book of mormon have higher IQ's then people who read the bible. I said oh, well I dont understand either so whats that mean about my iq?....:laugh2:

[chloe]

hmmm, just found this thread, mormons got some wacky ideas and some wouldn't consider them christian at all.


Yeah I think in other states mormons are a minority, but since I live in Utah they are a majority. Its a lot different here.

[chloe]

I knew very little about the mormons before Reading this thread and looking into them a bit, quite why anyone gives credit an organisation that were so openly racist I'll never know, but I guess that's how religion works.


It is shocking how openly racist they have been in the past. I don' know if black people are allowed to hold the Priesthood but at one point they weren't allowed to be a member of the church, now they can be a member.

[chloe]

The bible-thumpers came a knockin' at our door, offering to bring Jesus into our home, I says ta dem:

"Okay, he can come in. But y'all have to stay outside."

They had confused looks on their faces and blinked at me a couple of times, and I closed the door before they had a chance to compose a reply. They haven't been back since.

:laugh2:....yeah I feel the same because I think Jesus loves everyone.

[Noir]

It is shocking how openly racist they have been in the past. I don' know if black people are allowed to hold the Priesthood but at one point they weren't allowed to be a member of the church, now they can be a member.

Yeah, it didn't change until 1979, meaning there are adults in the church now that were happy to be part of it when it was a racist organisation.

"The Book of Mormon says that dark skin is a curse for sin, and supposedly is traced back to Cain. Women still are not allowed to participate in the priesthood."

Disgusting, but religions get away with it.

[chloe]

Yeah, it didn't change until 1979, meaning there are adults in the church now that were happy to be part of it when it was a racist organisation.

"The Book of Mormon says that dark skin is a curse for sin, and supposedly is traced back to Cain. Women still are not allowed to participate in the priesthood."

Disgusting, but religions get away with it.


Yeah I knew that about women, but can Black men hold the priesthood now or just join the church? Why would any minority want to join a church that thinks God marked humans black with the curse of cain?

[Noir]

Yeah I knew that about women, but can Black men hold the priesthood now or just join the church? Why would any minority want to join a church that thinks God marked humans black with the curse of cain?

I do believe black men can now become priests.
Nevermind that, why would anyone want to be part of an organisation that said (untill god told them he changed his mind or something) that people who were born of black skin are sin made manifest.

[chloe]

I do believe black men can now become priests.
Nevermind that, why would anyone want to be part of an organisation that said (untill god told them he changed his mind or something) that people who were born of black skin are sin made manifest.


Oh yeah thats a good point too !

[Noir]

Oh yeah thats a good point too !

Well...what does your daughter think about it?

[chloe]

Well...what does your daughter think about it?


Well she's an atheist. But she seems like she is reading all their books, I dont know because she is just starting to read all their books. Maybe she will become mormon. I don't even know what prompted the sudden interest.

[Noir]

Well she's an atheist. But she seems like she is reading all their books, I dont know because she is just starting to read all their books. Maybe she will become mormon. I don't even know what prompted the sudden interest.


How odd indeed, but she may be suckered in if she is just Reading their propaganda, if I may suggest to her, through you, the following video. As usual religions and myths greatest foe, science and reason, cast doubt upon religious text.

The video includes ex-mormons, scientists, and current mormons and the main focus is on the descriptions in the book of mormon that are to be taken as fact, and how DNA profiling and linguistic and cultural studies have found the book of Mormon to be surprisingly inaccurate for it being the word of god

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfxSscxh8o&feature=youtube_gdata

[PostmodernProphet]

the following video
counterbalancing propoganda....

[Mr. P]

Our troll Aggie is gonna be pissed when he finds out he's Asian and an interloper. :laugh2:

Great video and well worth watching.

[Noir]

counterbalancing propoganda....

Nopes. It's scientific proof that what is written in the book of Mormon about the native people of America is a load if tosh. Unless you think they're all lying.

[PostmodernProphet]

Nopes. It's scientific proof that what is written in the book of Mormon about the native people of America is a load if tosh. Unless you think they're all lying.

/grins.....you mean you want them to know the truth?.....



I can only imagine what replies I would get if I stated in a thread that my beliefs should be forced on children, as you just have, and yet how many people here will post that you are being intolerent, or interfering in others lives? The hypocrisy of it all is enough to make you sick, and either you can't see it, or you don't want to.

[Noir]

/grins.....you mean you want them to know the truth?.....

Yep. If someone writes a book saying it was written by gods hand, and must be followed as fact, and makes claims that are later disproved by DNA profiling, then either the science of DNA profling is wrong or the man who claimed his writtings are god given is lying.

If someone is subject to all the evidence on both sides and wants to believe the DNA profiling is wrong then that's fair enough, but I think it is important that Chloes daughter is given both sides of the coin so she can make an informed decision, don't you?

[chloe]

Yep. If someone writes a book saying it was written by gods hand, and must be followed as fact, and makes claims that are later disproved by DNA profiling, then either the science of DNA profling is wrong or the man who claimed his writtings are god given is lying.

If someone is subject to all the evidence on both sides and wants to believe the DNA profiling is wrong then that's fair enough, but I think it is important that Chloes daughter is given both sides of the coin so she can make an informed decision, don't you?


My ex husband & his family are mormon, I never interferred with my kids atheist beliefs and if she converts to mormonism I wont interfere there either. She can study the religion it doesnt bother me.

[Noir]

My ex husband & his family are mormon, I never interferred with my kids atheist beliefs and if she converts to mormonism I wont interfere there either. She can study the religion it doesnt bother me.

By which you mean to say you are not going to let her see the video?

[chloe]

By which you mean to say you are not going to let her see the video?

What is that supposed to mean You posted a video and now you have some expectation I have to show her the video? I didnt call the mormon missionaries over, and I didnt tell her to go to general conference, if she wants to investigate religion , she can investigate it without me trying to interfere.

Last year, When she proclaimed she was an atheist that was that, I didn't go out of my way to convince her not to be atheist. I let her read and research and decide what she believes about religion or non-religion.

[Gaffer]

Gee noir, the only one I see that seems to want to force beliefs on someone is you. Chloe has given her daughter the freedom to chose and investigate and your saying she should be led away and not allowed to make up her own mind.

[Noir]

What is that supposed to mean You posted a video and now you have some expectation I have to show her the video? I didnt call the mormon missionaries over, and I didnt tell her to go to general conference, if she wants to investigate religion , she can investigate it without me trying to interfere.

Last year, When she proclaimed she was an atheist that was that, I didn't go out of my way to convince her not to be atheist. I let her read and research and decide what she believes about religion or non-religion.

A religion like mormanism is kept alive by ignorence, ignorence of science and reasoning.

You don't have to show her the video, I was just asking if you will or not,

Have you watched the video yourself?

If your daughter knows of the DNA science and rejects it, chosing to believe the book of morman instead then that is fair enough. But would you not rather she has all the information and makes an informed choice rather than say be a Morman for a few years before discovering the DNA evidence for the first time?

To accept mormanism she must reject genetic science, I doubt this is something the mormans will teach her, and thus I thought I would forward the video to her.

[Noir]

Gee noir, the only one I see that seems to want to force beliefs on someone is you. Chloe has given her daughter the freedom to chose and investigate and your saying she should be led away and not allowed to make up her own mind.


Ofcourse she can make up her own mind, don't you think she should have all the evidence before making up her mind?
Surly the whole point of making an informed decision is that you are informed.

[chloe]

A religion like mormanism is kept alive by ignorence, ignorence of science and reasoning.

You don't have to show her the video, I was just asking if you will or not,

Have you watched the video yourself?

If your daughter knows of the DNA science and rejects it, chosing to believe the book of morman instead then that is fair enough. But would you not rather she has all the information and makes an informed choice rather than say be a Morman for a few years before discovering the DNA evidence for the first time?

To accept mormanism she must reject genetic science, I doubt this is something the mormans will teach her, and thus I thought I would forward the video to her.


I haven't watched the video, I am not mormon or any religion. When my daughter was all about her atheism, I didnt show her videos of religion or try to make her read things about what I believe, I allowed her to investigate atheism and philosophy, my daughter is pretty smart and so I know she will investiagte and question things herself. Ultimately I respect her choices to individually process what she comprehends and believes herself, she is not me and sometimes we disagree on things politically too, yet I accept she is not me and allow her to research her own beliefs. She is aware of the racism and sexism in the church.

[Noir]

I haven't watched the video, I am not mormon or any religion. When my daughter was all about her atheism, I didnt show her videos of religion or try to make her read things about what I believe, I allowed her to investigate atheism and philosophy, my daughter is pretty smart and so I know she will investiagte and question things herself. Ultimately I respect her choices to individually process what she comprehends and believes herself, she is not me and sometimes we disagree on things politically too, yet I accept she is not me and allow her to research her own beliefs. She is aware of the racism and sexism in the church.

Fair play, I was not trying to imply your daughter is not smart, I was jsut passing on a video that I think posses fundimental questions to the morman chruch, as is the point of the forum, exchange of information.

[OldMercsRule]

You do tend to find some very good videos: Noir. Bravo to you!!! :thumb:

I have had some experience with the LDS Church too. (Never was a Mormon), I was an agnostic Lutheran before becoming a born again Christian.

The Mormon people are very nice and usually have very strong family structures, (I have many Morman friends), as there are many LDS folks living in the Seattle metro.

The LDS theology is polytheistic, and very different then Christianity, (which is monotheistic). They do tend to down play that issue as much as possible, butt; any careful investigation will turn this big difference with main stream Christianity up very quickly.

That likely is not important to any Atheist, butt usually becomes important once big time flaws in the theology are discovered. Most Mormans who fall away from their Church become born again Christians.

Chloe lives in Utah and her ex (the young lady's father is LDS).

That means 'free agency' is likely to determine outcome here.

I have not read enough of your posts to find out if you have ever raised children, (you appear young to have had the experience).

If Chloe feeds her daughter any information, and her daughter already knows she doesn't have strong views, it usually back fires.

There are a lot of books on Mormonism that are readily available to those who care to investigate.

It does surprizes me that Glen Beck is LDS, with the way he tends to read about history and such.

Respectfully, JR

[chloe]

You do tend to find some very good videos: Noir. Bravo to you!!! :thumb:

I have had some experience with the LDS Church too. (Never was a Mormon), I was an agnostic Lutheran before becoming a born again Christian.

The Mormon people are very nice and usually have very strong family structures, (I have many Morman friends), as there are many LDS folks living in the Seattle metro.

The LDS theology is polytheistic, and very different then Christianity, (which is monotheistic). They do tend to down play that issue as much as possible, butt; any careful investigation will turn this big difference with main stream Christianity up very quickly.

That likely is not important to any Atheist, butt usually becomes important once big time flaws in the theology are discovered. Most Mormans who fall away from their Church become born again Christians.

Chloe lives in Utah and her ex (the young lady's father is LDS).

That means 'free agency' is likely to determine outcome here.

I have not read enough of your posts to find out if you have ever raised children, (you appear young to have had the experience).

If Chloe feeds her daughter any information, and her daughter already knows she doesn't have strong views, it usually back fires.

There are a lot of books on Mormonism that are readily available to those who care to investigate.

It does surprizes me that Glen Beck is LDS, with the way he tends to read about history and such.

Respectfully, JR

Yeah my daughter is very opinionated, and she very smart too. Some mormon stuff seems ok, they have good family values.

[Mr. P]

How old is your daughter, Chloe?

[Noir]

How old is your daughter, Chloe?

Oh I've already tried Mr P, just too young if I memo right ;D

[OldMercsRule]

Yeah my daughter is very opinionated, and she very smart too. Some mormon stuff seems ok, they have good family values.

My only problem with the Mormon Church is the deceptive way they present themselves as just another "Christian Church", (their own words), in their "missionary lessons" et al.

They claim their Jesus Christ is the same as the Jesus Christ of Christians which is not the case at all.

I don't want to get into detail on an open public forum, although we could exchange PMs if you want to hear the differences (which really are significant), and I would be willing to share what I know with you, (it would only take a few minutes to give you a significant background).

It was not for me, (prolly due to my Lutheran roots), butt: as I said, I liked all the people who were and still are LDS members, (who I am still friends with).

When I was curious I went to a Christian book store and picked up a few books and learned an earful about their subtle theology that made my future relations with LDS folks very informed, (still pleasent relations). I was very glad I did that.

If your daughter is a reader you could pick up one of those informative books and have the book strategically on a coffee table or somewhere she may see it and take a look for herself. It would provide balence to what she is reading and hearing from members of the Church.

If you don't have concerns then so be it.

Mormons are very good people in my experience. Much better then having your daughter hanging with gang bangers or druggies et al.

[chloe]

My only problem with the Mormon Church is the deceptive way they present themselves as just another "Christian Church", (their own words), in their "missionary lessons" et al.

They claim their Jesus Christ is the same as the Jesus Christ of Christians which is not the case at all.

I don't want to get into detail on an open public forum, although we could exchange PMs if you want to hear the differences (which really are significant), and I would be willing to share what I know with you, (it would only take a few minutes to give you a significant background).

It was not for me, (prolly due to my Lutheran roots), butt: as I said, I liked all the people who were and still are LDS members, (who I am still friends with).

When I was curious I went to a Christian book store and picked up a few books and learned an earful about their subtle theology that made my future relations with LDS folks very informed, (still pleasent relations). I was very glad I did that.

If your daughter is a reader you could pick up one of those informative books and have the book strategically on a coffee table or somewhere she may see it and take a look for herself. It would provide balence to what she is reading and hearing from members of the Church.

If you don't have concerns then so be it.

Mormons are very good people in my experience. Much better then having your daughter hanging with gang bangers or druggies et al.


My daughter moved out a few weeks ago (to Mr P my daughter is a teenager but when she was in 7th grade she was at a college level in her studies and in testing she is a very smart kid like her dad ), she is living with her dad. So the coffee table trick wouldn't work. Honestly, I went to the mormon church when I was married, I liked the relief society which is like free group therapy for women. But I can't live up to the strict standards of the church because I like coffee and I'm not perfect.

I have two daughters and the youngest stayed with me. But I am always interested in learning about religion. I will open PM for you. I work today and wont be able to read it until tonight. If you know alot about religion I may ask alot of questions.

[PostmodernProphet]

I'm not perfect.

well that sucks....