The Israel Factor

[moon]

How important is the Israel Lobby support ?

Israelis are taking part in a pre-election poll to ascertain which candidate for the Presidency would be best for them.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerPage.jhtml
The Israel Factor

Considering the findings of the Baker Report with regard to the influence of the Palestinian conflict on American Middle Eastern misfortunes, should thinking Americans regard the Israel Factor poll as indication of who not to vote for ?


http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html
The Israel Lobby

[gabosaurus]

The Israeli Lobby wants a candidate who turns a blind eye toward their policy of state-sponsored terrorism.

[loosecannon]

The Israeli Lobby wants a candidate who turns a blind eye toward their policy of state-sponsored terrorism.

Amen

[manu1959]

you all have no need to worry....you have won....the us will leave iraq and soon afganistan....israel is on its own now.....either they will be killed or they will kill them all....

we can all watch it like fight club....the joos vs the peaceful islamics

[gabosaurus]

So bring it on. Israel has proved it is well equipped to defend itself.

[manu1959]

So bring it on. Israel has proved it is well equipped to defend itself.

these two quotes seem at odds to me...


The Israeli Lobby wants a candidate who turns a blind eye toward their policy of state-sponsored terrorism.

one seems pro israel and ones seems anit israel.....care to clarify

[diuretic]

Given that Israel is equipped with nuclear weapons and I don't think any other nation in the region has nuclear weapons, why would another nation attack Israel (other than a bunch of half-arsed nutters in Hezbollah I mean) when it would mean the end of their own nation?

[Dilloduck]

Given that Israel is equipped with nuclear weapons and I don't think any other nation in the region has nuclear weapons, why would another nation attack Israel (other than a bunch of half-arsed nutters in Hezbollah I mean) when it would mean the end of their own nation?

For that matter why would a mother encourage her children to strap bombs on themselvs and kill themselves and others ?

[theHawk]

The Israeli Lobby wants a candidate who turns a blind eye toward their policy of state-sponsored terrorism.

No the Israel lobby wants candidates to turn a blind eye to our policy of funneling billions in tax dollars to them every year.

[theHawk]

Given that Israel is equipped with nuclear weapons and I don't think any other nation in the region has nuclear weapons, why would another nation attack Israel (other than a bunch of half-arsed nutters in Hezbollah I mean) when it would mean the end of their own nation?

Which is why a nation won't attack them, until they have nukes themselves. Until them, terrorism is the most effective because even though nations like Iran are directly linked to it, the world turns a blind eye to it and would lambast Israel if they ever attacked a state for just sponsoring terrorism.

[Joe Steel]

The U. S. should abandon Israel to the hell they've created. Let them deal with righteous anger of all those they've oppressed.

[Gaffer]

The U. S. should abandon Israel to the hell they've created. Let them deal with righteous anger of all those they've oppressed.

Spoken like a true iranian. Do you work for hezzbollah or are you hamas sponsored?

[manu1959]

The U. S. should abandon Israel to the hell they've created. Let them deal with righteous anger of all those they've oppressed.

who is they?

who have they oppressed?

[Kathianne]

who is they?

who have they oppressed?

Ditto, Joe.

[loosecannon]

No the Israel lobby wants candidates to turn a blind eye to our policy of funneling billions in tax dollars to them every year.


Yep. Each Israeli citizen is subsidized with 1/6 as much of our tax dollars as each American.

[loosecannon]

Which is why a nation won't attack them, until they have nukes themselves. Until them, terrorism is the most effective because even though nations like Iran are directly linked to it, the world turns a blind eye to it and would lambast Israel if they ever attacked a state for just sponsoring terrorism.

Israel has attacked nations for less and the world turned a blind eye.

Hell Israel even attacked one of our own naval vessels and killed, I believe, 37 US servicemen in an attack that lasted for hours and the world turned a blind eye.

[loosecannon]

Spoken like a true iranian. Do you work for hezzbollah or are you hamas sponsored?

Do you work for AIPAC or do you get paid directly by Mossad, or is it the Likud party? IDF?

[loosecannon]

who is they?

who have they oppressed?


Israel stole the Palestinian's nation outright. Then they practiced 60 years of genocide/ethnic cleansing against the pals so Israel could steal even more Palestinian land.

They would be European Jews migrating to Palestine and the other they would be the indigenous Palestinians.

[Kathianne]

Israel has attacked nations for less and the world turned a blind eye.

Hell Israel even attacked one of our own naval vessels and killed, I believe, 37 US servicemen in an attack that lasted for hours and the world turned a blind eye.
Which nations have been attacked unproked by Israel?

[Kathianne]

Israel stole the Palestinian's nation outright. Then they practiced 60 years of genocide/ethnic cleansing against the pals so Israel could steal even more Palestinian land.

They would be European Jews migrating to Palestine and the other they would be the indigenous Palestinians.

Links please. I gotta say, you are looking more and more like a shill for the idiot wing of the left.

[manu1959]

interesting...can someone link me up to a pre 1945 UN map with palestine on it.....

[Gaffer]

Israel stole the Palestinian's nation outright. Then they practiced 60 years of genocide/ethnic cleansing against the pals so Israel could steal even more Palestinian land.

They would be European Jews migrating to Palestine and the other they would be the indigenous Palestinians.

What palestinian nation?

[loosecannon]

What palestinian nation?


The British protectorate of Palestine. Inhabited by a majority ethnic Palestine population who had been the majority for almost all of the the last 3000 years.

THAT Palestine.

[loosecannon]

Which nations have been attacked unproked by Israel?

The UNITED STATES, Lebanon, PALESTINE, and IRAQ.

[manu1959]

interesting...can someone link me up to a pre 1945 UN map with palestine on it.....

interesting...can someone link me up to a pre 1945 UN map with palestine on it.....

[Gaffer]

The British protectorate of Palestine. Inhabited by a majority ethnic Palestine population who had been the majority for almost all of the the last 3000 years.

THAT Palestine.

Oh you mean that REGION full of nomadic arabs controlled by the british until 1947. It was not a country. And the arabs of the region were not palestinians. They were predominatantly from jordan and syria.

[loosecannon]

Oh you mean that REGION full of nomadic arabs controlled by the british until 1947. It was not a country. And the arabs of the region were not palestinians. They were predominatantly from jordan and syria.

OK, Gaffe. The best analogy I can think of right off the top of my head: The North American continent was not a nation either when we settled it. For the same reasons. It's inhabitants did not use the nationstate model.

In fact the nation state model is actually fairly new, and mostly spread via europeans.

And North America was also inhabited by nomadic tribes.

But EVERYBODY is nomadic.

I mean how else did Americans all get here? We nomaded our asses here from all over the world.

And how did the nomadic Jews from Europe end up in Palestine? By nomading across the waters in ships to settle and steal the land.


Europeans and European jews were nomadic as well. How did the vast majority of jews end up in Poland and Europe anyway? Esp if they were from Palestine?

[loosecannon]

interesting...can someone link me up to a pre 1945 UN map with palestine on it.....
1890
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/64/Medieval_Arab_Palestine.jpg/464px-Medieval_Arab_Palestine.jpg

1920's
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/69/BritishMandatePalestine1920.png

[OCA]

Israel stole the Palestinian's nation outright. Then they practiced 60 years of genocide/ethnic cleansing against the pals so Israel could steal even more Palestinian land.

They would be European Jews migrating to Palestine and the other they would be the indigenous Palestinians.


Completely untrue.

[OCA]

History of Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

[Hugh Lincoln]

How important is the Israel Lobby support ?

Israelis are taking part in a pre-election poll to ascertain which candidate for the Presidency would be best for them.

What our neocon friends are missing here is that the President of the United States should be who's best for AMERICANS, not Israelis. The arrogance of such a poll says a lot.

The Israeli Lobby is overpowerful because they control pretty much everything that issues from the Pentagon, and they have as their primary interest Israel, not the U.S. That's a bad thing no matter how you slice it. As has been shown, the Iraq war was launched for Israel's benefit, not ours. That means U.S. soldiers are dying not for this country, but another. Those who support this should be hung.

[Gaffer]

What our neocon friends are missing here is that the President of the United States should be who's best for AMERICANS, not Israelis. The arrogance of such a poll says a lot.

The Israeli Lobby is overpowerful because they control pretty much everything that issues from the Pentagon, and they have as their primary interest Israel, not the U.S. That's a bad thing no matter how you slice it. As has been shown, the Iraq war was launched for Israel's benefit, not ours. That means U.S. soldiers are dying not for this country, but another. Those who support this should be hung.

Exactly how was the iraq war for Israel's benefit?

[Gaffer]

1890
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/64/Medieval_Arab_Palestine.jpg/464px-Medieval_Arab_Palestine.jpg

1920's
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/69/BritishMandatePalestine1920.png

I don't see the country of palestine on these maps.

[loosecannon]

I don't see the country of palestine on these maps.


Then buy some glasses. The fact that the pals and many others did not subscribe to the relatively modern practice of 'nation states" changes nothing.

Aside from that Palestine and philistinia are one in the same.

[OCA]

I don't see the country of palestine on these maps.


There never has been a country of Palestine just like no Kurdistan.

[loosecannon]

Exactly how was the iraq war for Israel's benefit?

The Iran war will be 100% for israel's benefit. Iraq is more subtle. But for the same reasons Iraq and Iran are two local powers that threaten israel's complete military domination over the ME.

[loosecannon]

There never has been a country of Palestine just like no Kurdistan.

There has never been a nation called Inca, Maya, Iriquios, Soiux, Comanche either.

That doesn't mean that those peoples land wasn't stolen.

[OCA]

Then buy some glasses. The fact that the pals and many others did not subscribe to the relatively modern practice of 'nation states" changes nothing.

Aside from that Palestine and philistinia are one in the same.


British mandate, nothing more.

Israel does not engage in state sponsored terrorism.

[OCA]

There has never been a nation called Inca, Maya, Iriquios, Soiux, Comanche either.

That doesn't mean that those peoples land wasn't stolen.

Then I guess we all should leave, eh?

"To the victor goes the spoils"

"might makes right"

[OCA]

The Iran war will be 100% for israel's benefit. Iraq is more subtle. But for the same reasons Iraq and Iran are two local powers that threaten israel's complete military domination over the ME.


Boy we are striking deep into the heart of tinfoil country today! Israeli military domination over the M.E. .........LMFAO!:laugh2:

[manu1959]

I don't see the country of palestine on these maps.

looks more like british and french colonialisim settelments....spoils of war are not returned to the losing side..

[OCA]

looks more like british and french colonialisim settelments....spoils of war are not returned to the losing side..

This completely true.

Notice how no matter what subject you are talking about the same theme runs through the lefts arguments "western powers and values bad, everything else good"

[loosecannon]

Israel does not engage in state sponsored terrorism.

Yes they do. That is if you call ethnic cleansing and genocide terrorism.

And most defs of terrorism do.

[OCA]

Yes they do. That is if you call ethnic cleansing and genocide terrorism.

And most defs of terrorism do.

Neither of those is happening.....lol I ask you once again to provide irrefuteable proof.

[loosecannon]

looks more like british and french colonialisim settelments....spoils of war are not returned to the losing side..

That isn't what happened. The jews in Israel are 90% immigrants from Europe and the US. After WWII Europeans were shamed into allowing Israelis to buy ships and escape from Europe to Palestine where they started a war and killed or expelled a half million palestinians.

When the war began Jews were heavily outnumbered and were losing badly but they were bringing in 10,000 European Jews/ month. Within a year they outnumbered the remaining Palestinians and finally won the war.

500,000 Palestinians have been in exile ever since. But now that population of exiles has grown to at least 5 million. None have been allowed to return.

But any Jew is welcome to move to Israel.

[OCA]

That isn't what happened. The jews in Israel are 90% immigrants from Europe and the US. After WWII Europeans were shamed into allowing Israelis to buy ships and escape from Europe to Palestine where they started a war and killed or expelled a half million palestinians.

When the war began Jews were heavily outnumbered and were losing badly but they were bringing in 10,000 European Jews/ month. Within a year they outnumbered the remaining Palestinians and finally won the war.

500,000 Palestinians have been in exile ever since. But now that population of exiles has grown to at least 5 million. None have been allowed to return.

But any Jew is welcome to move to Israel.


Tough shit, Palestinians should've stepped up and kicked ass when they had the advantage way back when...........to the victor goes the spoils.

Shamed!!!!!LMFAO! So I guess the holocaust was no big deal, eh?

[loosecannon]

Neither of those is happening.....lol I ask you once again to provide irrefuteable proof.

Moshe Dayan, DSO (Hebrew: משה דיין)a (May 20, 1915 – October 16, 1981), was an Israeli military leader and politician. The fourth Chief of Staff of the Israel Defense Forces (1953-1958), he became a fighting symbol to the world of the new State of Israel.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Dayan

Not surprisingly, the guiding principle of the occupation has been incessant humiliation. Israeli plans for Palestinians have followed the guidelines formulated by Moshe Dayan, one of the Labour leaders more sympathetic to the Palestinian plight. Thirty years ago, Dayan advised the cabinet that Israel should make it clear to refugees that "we have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave". When challenged, he responded by citing Ben-Gurion, who said that "who- ever approaches the Zionist problem from a moral aspect is not a Zionist".

http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/chomskyconstr.cfm

this from the wiki list of ethnic cleansings:

The Nakba or Palestinian exodus, in which the substantial majority of Arab Palestinians (approximately 700,000) in the areas of Palestine that became part of Israel fled or were deported by Israeli forces following the Arab invasion igniting the 1948 Arab-Israeli War

from wiki list of genocides:

The Sabra and Shatila massacre (or Sabra and Chatila massacre) was carried out in September 1982 by Lebanese Maronite Christian militias against Palestinians in refugee camps. The number of victims of the massacre is estimated at 700-3500. The camps were externally surrounded by Israeli Defence Forces throughout the incident, although the Israeli military personnel who were there stated that they had no idea of what was going on inside. On December 16, 1982, the United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide

Google search for "israel", "genocide"
1.5 million hits

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Israel%22%2C+%22genocide%22+

knock yourself out

[loosecannon]

Shamed!!!!!LMFAO! So I guess the holocaust was no big deal, eh?

The holocaust was a big deal, but the Israelis have begun their own holocaust of Palestinians.

And the fact that Israel kicked ass and took the spoils only supports the claim that they committed ethnic cleansing and genocide.

[OCA]

Moshe Dayan, DSO (Hebrew: משה דיין)a (May 20, 1915 – October 16, 1981), was an Israeli military leader and politician. The fourth Chief of Staff of the Israel Defense Forces (1953-1958), he became a fighting symbol to the world of the new State of Israel.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Dayan

Not surprisingly, the guiding principle of the occupation has been incessant humiliation. Israeli plans for Palestinians have followed the guidelines formulated by Moshe Dayan, one of the Labour leaders more sympathetic to the Palestinian plight. Thirty years ago, Dayan advised the cabinet that Israel should make it clear to refugees that "we have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave". When challenged, he responded by citing Ben-Gurion, who said that "who- ever approaches the Zionist problem from a moral aspect is not a Zionist".

http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/chomskyconstr.cfm

this from the wiki list of ethnic cleansings:

The Nakba or Palestinian exodus, in which the substantial majority of Arab Palestinians (approximately 700,000) in the areas of Palestine that became part of Israel fled or were deported by Israeli forces following the Arab invasion igniting the 1948 Arab-Israeli War

from wiki list of genocides:

The Sabra and Shatila massacre (or Sabra and Chatila massacre) was carried out in September 1982 by Lebanese Maronite Christian militias against Palestinians in refugee camps. The number of victims of the massacre is estimated at 700-3500. The camps were externally surrounded by Israeli Defence Forces throughout the incident, although the Israeli military personnel who were there stated that they had no idea of what was going on inside. On December 16, 1982, the United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide

Google search for "israel", "genocide"
1.5 million hits

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Israel%22%2C+%22genocide%22+

knock yourself out


You call it genocide I call it security......argue that. Argue against the fact that Israel does not have the right to secure itself. If the Palestinians can't or won't live in peace they go, its as simple as that. Whether they go alive or dead makes no difference.

Ben was right, they are dogs for the most part. I have personal experience with this, you don't.

[OCA]

The holocaust was a big deal, but the Israelis have begun their own holocaust of Palestinians.

And the fact that Israel kicked ass and took the spoils only supports the claim that they committed ethnic cleansing and genocide.

Security......the right to secure ones own country by any means neccessary is all that applies.

If Americans decided as a whole they wanted to deport all people of Mexican ancestry tommorrow i'd support it, a country has a right to whatever it wishes to secure itself. Israel has given the Palestinians ample chances to square its shit away, it hasn't up to this point, the Palestinians curent situation is all of their own doing.

[loosecannon]

Security......the right to secure ones own country by any means neccessary is all that applies.

If Americans decided as a whole they wanted to deport all people of Mexican ancestry tommorrow i'd support it, a country has a right to whatever it wishes to secure itself. Israel has given the Palestinians ample chances to square its shit away, it hasn't up to this point, the Palestinians curent situation is all of their own doing.


They committed ethnic cleansing as they stole the nation. It is a fact.

The genocides have happened since then. Israeli Jews have a lower reproductive rate than Palestinians, whose birth rate is the highest in the world.

So to maintain a mojority Israeli Jews MUST kill, deport, and lower the lifespan of Palestinians and/or import more jews.

It is a deliberate, premeditated campaign of slow genocide to keep the palestinians from becoming the majority and then overwhelming the Jews in the democratic government abolishing The state favoritism toward Jews.

It wasn't and isn't their land.

If I steal your identity or your car does that me into you or your car my car?

[loosecannon]

You call it genocide I call it security......argue that. Argue against the fact that Israel does not have the right to secure itself. If the Palestinians can't or won't live in peace they go, its as simple as that. Whether they go alive or dead makes no difference.

Ben was right, they are dogs for the most part. I have personal experience with this, you don't.


Israelis can NOT and do NOT live in peace, apply the same standard and exile them.

And the security of the Jews in Israel IS the insecurity of the palestinians and Arabs in the ME.


Whether they go alive or dead makes no difference

iow you approve of BOTH the ethnic cleansing and the genocide.

[OCA]

iow you approve of BOTH the ethnic cleansing and the genocide.

If neccessary, yes.

It is not a fact in Israel however.

It is Palestinians own fault the plight they are in.

[OCA]

Israelis do live in peace when Palestinians are not murdering them in pizza parlors.

Palestinians should all live in Jordan.

[loosecannon]

Israelis do live in peace when Palestinians are not murdering them in pizza parlors.

Palestinians should all live in Jordan.

No they don't. And it is Palestinians land.

Before the second intifada that began about 6 years ago Israelis killed approx 22 palestinians for each Jew who was murdered by Pals.

After the intifada had raged two years with the suicide bombings the ratio of Pals killed was only 3 times as high as the number of Jews killed.

I recently heard that that ratio had jumped back up to 7:1 since the invasions of Lebanon and the West Bank last fall.

Israeli has ALWAYS murdered more pals than vice versa.

And the ethnic cleansing and genocide have not stopped since 1947.

here is the average number of conflict related Palestinian deaths /day since the Intifada began
http://www.counterpunch.org/graph1%20av%20death.jpg

Graph #1 shows the average number of killings per day during the course of the intifada. At the beginning of the intifada, about two Palestinians were killed every day, but now this has steadily increased to 2.6 p/day (see trend line). There have been some spikes, e.g., during the destruction of Jenin (Apr. 2002) when the average killings reached 8.2 p/day [2]. NB: these numbers do not include the resistance fighters (yes, lets dispense with the tainted word "militants") killed by the IOF. The average killings for June 2003 stand as of June 16th at 3.4 p/day; this is the death toll after the Road Map negotiations were launched. Even without scaling this up to the implied death toll in a larger US population, these numbers would easily have caused outrage and would have been found intolerable in the US. When it happens elsewhere and where it suits the Israelis, then death can be ignored.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada#Casualties

About 1,000 Israelis were killed (up to September 2004) and 6,700 were wounded in Palestinian attacks.[citation needed]

The Palestine Red Crescent Society's statistics show 4,398 Palestinians were killed and 31,168 were wounded or injured from 29 September 2000 to 28 December 2006.[49]

A "Statistical Report Summary" [5] for September 27, 2000 through January 1, 2005 by the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism indicates that 56% (1542) of the 2773 Palestinians killed by Israelis were combatants. According to their data, an additional 406 Palestinians were killed by actions of their own side. 22% (215) of the 988 Israelis killed by Palestinians were combatants. An additional 22 Israelis were killed by actions of their own side. There is detailed info through September 2002 found here:

[loosecannon]

iow you approve of BOTH the ethnic cleansing and the genocide.


If neccessary, yes.

Your honor, the prosecution rests it's case.

[OCA]

No they don't. And it is Palestinians land.

Before the second intifada that began about 6 years ago Israelis killed approx 22 palestinians for each Jew who was murdered by Pals.

After the intifada had raged two years with the suicide bombings the ratio of Pals killed was only 3 times as high as the number of Jews killed.

I recently heard that that ratio had jumped back up to 7:1 since the invasions of Lebanon and the West Bank last fall.

Israeli has ALWAYS murdered more pals than vice versa.

And the ethnic cleansing and genocide have not stopped since 1947.

here is the average number of conflict related Palestinian deaths /day since the Intifada began
http://www.counterpunch.org/graph1%20av%20death.jpg

Graph #1 shows the average number of killings per day during the course of the intifada. At the beginning of the intifada, about two Palestinians were killed every day, but now this has steadily increased to 2.6 p/day (see trend line). There have been some spikes, e.g., during the destruction of Jenin (Apr. 2002) when the average killings reached 8.2 p/day [2]. NB: these numbers do not include the resistance fighters (yes, lets dispense with the tainted word "militants") killed by the IOF. The average killings for June 2003 stand as of June 16th at 3.4 p/day; this is the death toll after the Road Map negotiations were launched. Even without scaling this up to the implied death toll in a larger US population, these numbers would easily have caused outrage and would have been found intolerable in the US. When it happens elsewhere and where it suits the Israelis, then death can be ignored.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada#Casualties

About 1,000 Israelis were killed (up to September 2004) and 6,700 were wounded in Palestinian attacks.[citation needed]

The Palestine Red Crescent Society's statistics show 4,398 Palestinians were killed and 31,168 were wounded or injured from 29 September 2000 to 28 December 2006.[49]

A "Statistical Report Summary" [5] for September 27, 2000 through January 1, 2005 by the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism indicates that 56% (1542) of the 2773 Palestinians killed by Israelis were combatants. According to their data, an additional 406 Palestinians were killed by actions of their own side. 22% (215) of the 988 Israelis killed by Palestinians were combatants. An additional 22 Israelis were killed by actions of their own side. There is detailed info through September 2002 found here:


There were about two dozen actual Palestinians living in the land that God willed to the people of Israel pre 1947.

Israelis kill more Palestinians in revenge killings yes, but do not strap on backpacks rigged with bombs to blowup pizza parlors, discotechques(sp?) and wedding parties.

Israelis must kill more Palestinians in revenge to send a message to murderous Hamas and leftover PLO factions. It is not Israel's fault that they possess planes and tanks while Palestinians possess guns and rocks. If Palestinians were more industrious and hardworking instead of a band of Gypsies they could have those things too.

The ratio jumped to 7 to 1 after HAMAS INVADED ISRAEL.

Israel has never been the agressor in any M.E. war its been involved in.

Israel is a peaceful nation.

Debate Policy, Loose has been successfully owned.

[OCA]

iow you approve of BOTH the ethnic cleansing and the genocide.



Your honor, the prosecution rests it's case.

In response to non-stop homicide bombings ethnic cleansing and retaliatory killings are AN APPROPRIATE AND LEGITIMATE RESPONSE as recognized by international governing bodies.

Israel has every right to defend itself as it sees fit.

[loosecannon]

There were about two dozen actual Palestinians living in the land that God willed to the people of Israel pre 1947.

I am sorry but one of the links above said that 700,000 were expelled which means even more than that were living in Palestine.



Israelis kill more Palestinians in revenge killings yes, but do not strap on backpacks rigged with bombs to blowup pizza parlors, discotechques(sp?) and wedding parties.

So what a murder by any other name is still a murder and terrorism by any other name is still terrorism.

State terrorism is a controversial term that is separate from the more common term state sponsored terrorism. State terrorism is defined by some as violence upon a population committed by national governments or their proxies when not in a state of armed conflict with that population . State terrorism can be effected directly, at the hands of national military or security forces, or indirectly, through state sponsored terrorist organizations. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_terrorism


Israelis must kill more Palestinians in revenge to send a message to murderous Hamas and leftover PLO factions. It is not Israel's fault that they possess planes and tanks while Palestinians possess guns and rocks. If Palestinians were more industrious and hardworking instead of a band of Gypsies they could have those things too.

You would have made a wonderful Nazi working in one of those upscale concentation camps.



Israel has never been the agressor in any M.E. war its been involved in.

HA!!! Hillarious. What about the 1980 and 2006 Lebanese wars?


Israel is a peaceful nation.

Israel has not had a single solitary day of peace in it's whole existence. Nor has israel practiced peace for a single day.

Next you will say Adolph Hitler was a peace loving man.


Debate Policy, Loose has been successfully owned.

You are either a moron or a self hypnotist.

You can't hang and you know it.

[loosecannon]

Here you go OCA, for your sore petard

http://the-green-apple.co.uk/store/images/nappy%20salve.jpg

[OCA]

Here you go OCA, for your sore petard

http://the-green-apple.co.uk/store/images/nappy%20salve.jpg


Without the acknowledgement of a veteran conservative here your self proclomations of victory ring hollow.

Shit a retard can claim victory anytime he wants.

[OCA]

I am sorry but one of the links above said that 700,000 were expelled which means even more than that were living in Palestine.




So what a murder by any other name is still a murder and terrorism by any other name is still terrorism.

State terrorism is a controversial term that is separate from the more common term state sponsored terrorism. State terrorism is defined by some as violence upon a population committed by national governments or their proxies when not in a state of armed conflict with that population . State terrorism can be effected directly, at the hands of national military or security forces, or indirectly, through state sponsored terrorist organizations. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_terrorism



You would have made a wonderful Nazi working in one of those upscale concentation camps.




HA!!! Hillarious. What about the 1980 and 2006 Lebanese wars?



Israel has not had a single solitary day of peace in it's whole existence. Nor has israel practiced peace for a single day.

Next you will say Adolph Hitler was a peace loving man.



You are either a moron or a self hypnotist.

You can't hang and you know it.

1980 and 2006 were in response to Hamas incursions into Northern Israel, Israel was completely justified and sanctioned by international bodies.

Israel does not practice any form of terrorism whatsoever.

Israel should annex all of Gaza, east and west banks and Golan Heights(if they haven't already), build Jewish only settlements there and expel all Palestinians out of country so they do not have murderous scum among them.

[loosecannon]

Shit a retard can claim victory anytime he wants.

and we have all seen you prove that point

[OCA]

and we have all seen you prove that point

OCA's proclomations have been independently corroborated.

Loose Cannon's have not been independently corroborated and in fact defy all logic.

Owned.

[loosecannon]

1980 and 2006 were in response to Hamas incursions into Northern Israel, Israel was completely justified and sanctioned by international bodies.

Israel does not practice any form of terrorism whatsoever.

Wait a minute, WHAT international bodies? The UN has tried to sanction Israel 66 times and only the US and a handful of island states have ever supported the israeli positions.


Israel should annex all of Gaza, east and west banks and Golan Heights(if they haven't already), build Jewish only settlements there and expel all Palestinians out of country so they do not have murderous scum among them.


iow you like the ethnic cleansing even if it isn't neccesary.

[OCA]

Wait a minute, WHAT international bodies? The UN has tried to sanction Israel 66 times and only the US and a handful of island states have ever supported the israeli positions.




iow you like the ethnic cleansing even if it isn't neccesary.


U.N is not a viable source, it is in fact a corrupt body, It is always ok to defend yourself from aggression and homicide bombings.

Israel does not engage in ethnic cleansing if it is expelling murderous scum.

[Gaffer]

losercomrade is a major jew hater. Your colors are showing loud and clear you fucking bigot. All you have posted so far is arab talking points. And those are all lies. Does iran pay you alot for all these posts?

[OCA]

losercomrade is a major jew hater. Your colors are showing loud and clear you fucking bigot. All you have posted so far is arab talking points. And those are all lies. Does iran pay you alot for all these posts?


Sure he is, see the one where he says the Jews "shamed" Europe into hooking them up after WWII? Yeah like they didn't get slaughtered by the hands of "Europeans":laugh2:

[loosecannon]

U.N is not a viable source, it is in fact a corrupt body, It is always ok to defend yourself from aggression and homicide bombings.

Israel does not engage in ethnic cleansing if it is expelling murderous scum.


murdurous scum.

OK so there have been 1000 Israelis killed since 2000 in conflict with the Pals, 22% of those were killed by Israelis themselves, leaving 780.

So there might be what 390 murderous scum in Palestine by that measure? And all of those are either dead or in Prison.

So what is your definition of murdeous scum? You mean like the IDF, or Likud radicals?

Israel already drove 700,000 palestinians out of their land.

Are you really so irrational that you think those were all murderers?

Oh, and BTW statistically it looks like there are 4 times as many Jewish murderous scum in Israel as there are Palestinians MS.

What punishment should we apply equally to all of them?

[loosecannon]

losercomrade is a major jew hater.

A bald faced lie Gaffe. But it definitely sounds like you might hate yourself some Palestinians.


Your colors are showing loud and clear you fucking bigot.

No I think the "fucking bigot" is probably named Gaffe.



All you have posted so far is arab talking points. And those are all lies. Does iran pay you alot for all these posts?

I wish I got paid for my posts. And no those aren't Arab talking points, they actually are the truth. You might wanna buy Jimmy Carter's new book Palestine: Peace not Apartheid and read it.

I dunno if you can handle the truth, but you owe it to yourself to give it a try.

[loosecannon]

U.N is not a viable source, it is in fact a corrupt body,


O Come on OCA how could you possibly be less genuine.

The most aggregious violator of human rights on the planet since Pol Pot and apartheid SA and you claim the UN is corrupt? Too corrupt to judge?

I get it (wink, wink) anybody who doesn't take your side is gonna be too "something" , right?

You can't casually dismiss people who know a hundred times more than you do because you determine they are "too" this or that.

Esp world bodies with a wide range of inputs.

You make it too easy to simply dismiss OCA as an arrogant fool and a partisan bot.

[Gaffer]

A bald faced lie Gaffe. But it definitely sounds like you might hate yourself some Palestinians.

No lie at all, it's very clear in your posts here. Your a jew hater.


No I think the "fucking bigot" is probably named Gaffe.

I never said I'm not a bigot. I despise muslims. Why don't you be honest and admit your a jew hater.


I wish I got paid for my posts. And no those aren't Arab talking points, they actually are the truth. You might wanna buy Jimmy Carter's new book Palestine: Peace not Apartheid and read it.

I dunno if you can handle the truth, but you owe it to yourself to give it a try.

I wouldn't believe carter if he said the sun would come up in the morning. He's a weasle. I see where you get your talking points tho. The jew hater in chief himself.

[loosecannon]

The jew hater in chief himself.

It is a well known that Jewish people in the US feign "antisemitism" everytime anybody does anything other than fully support the policies of israel.

Not so in Israel where criticism of the government and opposition POV are common, boisterous and welcome.

But reality is that neither myself or Jimmy Carter hate jews at all. Mistrust them perhaps, oppose their policies yes, but hate, well that is a bald faced and transparent lie.

"Israel's continued control and colonization of Palestinian land have been the primary obstacles to a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land."

and

I have spent a great deal of my adult life trying to bring peace to Israel, and my own prayer is that all of us who want to see Israelis enjoy permanent peace with their neighbors join in this common effort.

and

That's correct. Over the last 30 years of my life, one of my strongest commitments has been to bring peace to Israel and to have its existence accepted by all nations. I've traveled all over Israel. In fact, I've been to the Golan Heights three times, and we've conducted three elections there for the Palestinians. I've seen the intense debate in Israel about Israeli government policies, with the majority of Israelis habitually favoring the withdrawal from occupied territories in exchange for peace. But that debate does not even exist in the United States. A member of Congress would not dream of coming out in favor of Israel's withdrawal from occupied territories or condemn Israel's treatment of Palestinian people. And very few of the news media in this country would ever bring out an intense analysis of the issues involved in the Middle East as they are brought out fervently in Israel and throughout Europe. There's no doubt that there is a strong aversion to criticizing Israel in this country. I wouldn't say it's all because of intimidation, but that is one factor.

~all 3 quotes are of Jimmy Carter

[Yurt]

O Come on OCA how could you possibly be less genuine.

The most aggregious violator of human rights on the planet since Pol Pot and apartheid SA and you claim the UN is corrupt? Too corrupt to judge?

I get it (wink, wink) anybody who doesn't take your side is gonna be too "something" , right?

You can't casually dismiss people who know a hundred times more than you do because you determine they are "too" this or that.

Esp world bodies with a wide range of inputs.

You make it too easy to simply dismiss OCA as an arrogant fool and a partisan bot.

Who? Are you insinuating the US?

[loosecannon]

Who? Are you insinuating the US?


No Israel is per capita the most aggregious violator of human rights today. They keep almost 1/3 of their population inside virtual prison/torture compounds.

There are reasons why the UN has tried to sanction them 66 times. Only the US veto on the permanent security council has prevented those 66 sanctions from occuring.

[gabosaurus]

U.N is not a viable source, it is in fact a corrupt body, It is always ok to defend yourself from aggression and homicide bombings.

If the U.N. is not a viable source, then why did Bush cite the violation of U.N. sanctions as a reason for the invasion of Iraq?

[OCA]

If the U.N. is not a viable source, then why did Bush cite the violation of U.N. sanctions as a reason for the invasion of Iraq?

In the case of Israel the U.N. is not a viable source.

The U.N. as it stands today is anti-semitic.

[OCA]

Loose is not anti-semitic, he/she is anti-western and anti-American.

[Dilloduck]

If the U.N. is not a viable source, then why did Bush cite the violation of U.N. sanctions as a reason for the invasion of Iraq?

For the sake of he dumb ass people who actually think the UN to be a viable source, of course ! :coffee:

[loosecannon]

In the case of Israel the U.N. is not a viable source.

The U.N. as it stands today is anti-semitic.


Of course using this kind of plastic logic you can simply declare anything to be the truth that serves you in the moment, just because.

And if the UN IS antisemitic then the world must be antisemitic.

And the whole world hates us because we are free. And white.

Did you even realize that Semites are ARABs?

[moon]

manu1959


interesting...can someone link me up to a pre 1945 UN map with palestine on it.....



http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w94/tardiswomb/landloss1.jpg


Close enough ?

[Dilloduck]

manu1959





http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w94/tardiswomb/landloss1.jpg


Close enough ?

Not really-----1946 is not pre-1945.

[moon]

That's a well-known fact, but it's hard to imagine that the 1945 map of Palestine would look significantly different to the 1946 map illustrated. There weren't significantly more or less established jewish settlements in 1945.

Looking at Map 2, the Partition Map following Resolution 181, it's easy to understand why the Palestinians, in fact all inhabitants of Palestine and neighboring countries, would be shocked and dismayed at the creation of a synthetic State which devoured so much Palestinian territory. Of course, it's easy to trundle out that old chestnut that 'there wasn't any Palestinian territory' but that would simply be parroting the contemporary UN and British mandate culprits along with present day shyster lawyers. The region had an indigenous population, jews , muslims, christians and others. An exclusively jewish State was always going to be a boil on its arse, and so it has proven to be.

loosecannon;

Did you even realize that Semites are ARABs?

Yep, I noticed that. The notion of anti-Arab Arabs has always been a bit of a frown furrower.

[Hugh Lincoln]

Exactly how was the iraq war for Israel's benefit?

See here:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1438.htm

And here:

http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html

And:

http://www.vdare.com/macdonald/030918_neoconservatism.htm

[moon]

The Israel Factor introduces the Fred Thompson Factor;


The Fred Thompson question: Will he rise to the top?

By Shmuel Rosner


Fred Thompson was added to The Israel Factor list of possible candidates as the growing signs that he is running are getting impossible to ignore.

Last month, as I was writing about survey 7 of the Factor, I mentioned Thompson's candidacy, and informed the readers that the panel had received a first package of background material on Thompson...

Thompson is supposed to provide Republican voters with the option that many of them lack: a candidate with conservative views who meets the familiar criteria of pro-gun, pro-life, anti-taxes, pro-family values, anti-immigration."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=859460

[Hugh Lincoln]

To read that article, you'd think a candidate were "anti-Semitic until proven otherwise." And that's probably true...

[TheSage]

these two quotes seem at odds to me...



one seems pro israel and ones seems anit israel.....care to clarify

The issue is our support. Why must we support it? What they do for us besides call us names when we don't do what they say?

[5stringJeff]

The issue is our support. Why must we support it? What they do for us besides call us names when we don't do what they say?

They are currently the only democracy in the Middle East. They're also the only country in the area that doesn't support fanatics who are hell-bent on destroying all non-Muslims.

[Hugh Lincoln]

What they do for us besides call us names when we don't do what they say?

Kill our military men.

http://www.ussliberty.org/

Relieve us of hard-earned tax dollars we'd otherwise foolishly spend on feeding our families.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

Spit on Christians.

http://www.ww4report.com/node/1046

And as Walt and Mearsheimer note, it's not only all for nought, it actually HURTS America, and BY THE FUCKING WAY: WE ARE TERRORIST TARGETS BECAUSE WE SUPPORT THEM! It is, quite literally, a lose-lose situation.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

More important, saying that Israel and the US are united by a shared terrorist threat has the causal relationship backwards: the US has a terrorism problem in good part because it is so closely allied with Israel, not the other way around. Support for Israel is not the only source of anti-American terrorism, but it is an important one, and it makes winning the war on terror more difficult. There is no question that many al-Qaida leaders, including Osama bin Laden, are motivated by Israel’s presence in Jerusalem and the plight of the Palestinians. Unconditional support for Israel makes it easier for extremists to rally popular support and to attract recruits.

[moon]

5string Jeff;


They are currently the only democracy in the Middle East.

Calling Israel a democracy is stretching the term until it squeals.

If America had a policy of Evangelist exclusivity, if it allowed everyone a vote but actively discriminated against non-Evangelists, if it allowed non-Evangelists into the government but passed a law which forced them to pledge allegiance to Evangelism before taking their seat, and if it investigated and prosecuted, by means of its secret service, anybody who challenged the unfairness of that system then would you call that a 'democratic America ' ?

That's today's Israel I just described. And that ain't even the half of it.


A law written by MK David Rotem (Yisrael Beitenu) and MK Zevulon Orlev (NRP) was also passed by the Knesset plenum during its preliminary reading on Wednesday. The law would require MKs to pledge their devotion to keeping Israel "a Jewish and democratic state, both in character and symbolism."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/860375.html



The Shin Bet security service believes it is within its charter to carry out surveillance operations, such as phone taps, on individuals deemed as "conducting subversive activity against the Jewish identity of the state," even if their actions are not in violation of the law.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/861648.html

[nevadamedic]

If the U.N. is not a viable source, then why did Bush cite the violation of U.N. sanctions as a reason for the invasion of Iraq?

The UN is worthless. Bush just made sure to go through the right channels. You criticize him for going through the UN, but if he didn't youd criticize him for that. Youo need to get over your double standards issues.

[moon]

If that was intended to be a reversal then it didn't work.

[nevadamedic]

If that was intended to be a reversal then it didn't work.

What?

[5stringJeff]

5string Jeff;

Calling Israel a democracy is stretching the term until it squeals.

If America had a policy of Evangelist exclusivity, if it allowed everyone a vote but actively discriminated against non-Evangelists, if it allowed non-Evangelists into the government but passed a law which forced them to pledge allegiance to Evangelism before taking their seat, and if it investigated and prosecuted, by means of its secret service, anybody who challenged the unfairness of that system then would you call that a 'democratic America ' ?

That's today's Israel I just described. And that ain't even the half of it.

Whatever its faults, it is still a Parliamentary democracy. And interestingly enough, freedomhouse.org gave Israel a "Free" rating, saying in part:

[quote=freedomhouse.org]Israeli citizens can change their government democratically. Although Israel has no formal constitution, a series of basic laws has the force of constitutional principles. A largely ceremonial president serves as chief of state while the prime minister, appointed by his or her party, serves as head of government. The unicameral Knesset (parliament) is composed of 120 seats, and members are elected by popular vote for four-year terms; the distribution of seats among Israel's wide range of political parties is determined by a system of proportional representation. Parties or candidates that deny the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish state, those that oppose the democratic system, or those that incite racism, are prohibited.

Arab residents of East Jerusalem, while not granted automatic citizenship, were issued Israeli identity cards after the 1967 Six-Day War. However, by law, Israel strips Arabs of their Jerusalem residency if they remain outside the city for more than three months. Arab residents have the same rights as Israeli citizens, except the right to vote in national elections. They do have the right to vote in municipal elections and are eligible to apply for citizenship. Many choose not to seek citizenship out of solidarity with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and because they believe East Jerusalem should be the capital of an independent Palestinian state. East Jerusalem's Arab population does not receive a share of municipal services proportionate to its numbers. Arabs in East Jerusalem do have the right to vote in Palestinian Authority elections. Under the 1948 Law of Return, all Jewish immigrants and their immediate family are granted Israeli citizenship and residency rights; other immigrants must apply for these same rights. [quote]

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&country=6985&year=2006

[moon]

Well,the Freedom House rating requires an update. It's now 2007 and the links I posted previously are to reports on the most recent mockeries of 'democracy' enacted, or scheduled to be enacted.

No way can a system be designated 'free' if it passes a law demanding allegiance to the ruling class by any successful candidate.

In the case of an Arab politician who objects to a theocracy in principle, let alone a ' jewish state' , he must sign away his very raison d'etre if he is elected.
What would be the point of voting for anybody other than a jew , or in the case of my earlier analogy, an evangelist ? Aha.

[TheSage]

They are currently the only democracy in the Middle East. They're also the only country in the area that doesn't support fanatics who are hell-bent on destroying all non-Muslims.

Blah blah fucking blah, jeff. This is wearing thin. We only protect democracies who vote for who we like. It's not about democracy it's about your theocratic rationalization of zionism.

And if you're concerned about protecting america from muslim conquest, how about banning muslim immigration. Is that TOO radical?

[moon]

Iran's intelligence ministry has charged a prominent Iranian-American academic with trying to overthrow the country's Islamic system of government.

The US government described the charges as "silly" and "outrageous" and called for her immediate release.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6679779.stm

So, this is described as 'democratic government' because it takes place in Israel but is condemned as 'silly and outrageous' when it takes place in Iran.

American hypocrisy costs lives.

[5stringJeff]

Blah blah fucking blah, jeff. This is wearing thin. We only protect democracies who vote for who we like. It's not about democracy it's about your theocratic rationalization of zionism.

Dangit. You found me out. I'm really a theocratic Zionist, masquerading as an evangelical conservative-libertarian. :rolleyes:


And if you're concerned about protecting america from muslim conquest, how about banning muslim immigration. Is that TOO radical?

Given the chance to rewrite our immigration laws, I'd severely restrict immigration from Muslim countries.

[TheSage]

Dangit. You found me out. I'm really a theocratic Zionist, masquerading as an evangelical conservative-libertarian. :rolleyes:



Given the chance to rewrite our immigration laws, I'd severely restrict immigration from Muslim countries.


Good for you. Now admit you're a christian zionist, who believes if you're not "with the jews", you're against god.

[Doniston]

So, this is described as 'democratic government' because it takes place in Israel but is condemned as 'silly and outrageous' when it takes place in Iran.

American hypocrisy costs lives.Very very good question, Further, it is not really the nation, but how the government interprits it. We have a constitutional Republic, but the Bush administration treats it like a dictatorship.

[moon]

Right. The Mad Methodist would have all elected Democrats signing allegiance to Methodism if he could.

The Methodist State of America is averted only by way of the Constitution, and what are a few bits of parchment to a dedicated theocrat ? Lol.

[nevadamedic]

Im confused again.............

[moon]

Well, Haleh Esfandiari is clearly not guilty of trying to overthrow the Islamic State. For America to say that such charges are absurd is quite correct. Unfortunately, American hypocrisy allows the Israelis , without condemnation, to pass laws allowing for prosecutions for 'trying to overthrow the Jewish State'.

Both positions are criminally theocratic, to my mind, and how badly does the world need theocracies ?

[gabosaurus]

Summary to date:

Israel = terrorist state
Palestinians = terrorist organization

[theHawk]

You people are all focused on the wrong issues. It doesn't matter if Israel was founded "legally", it doesn't matter if Israel or Palestine are "terrorists".
Its not our war and the fate of America should have nothing to do with Israel. Unfortunately our leaders have commited us to being allies with Israel.
If a worst case scenario happens and Israel is attacked and occupied by its surrounding Islamic states, our President, whether it be neocon or Dim, will not hesitate to draft our young people and send them to the trenches to die for Israel. The question you should be asking yourselves is are you willing to die for Israel? Sorry, but I am not going to die for the idea of setting up an exclusively non-muslim state in the middle east, because the idea is absurd.

[glockmail]

You people are all focused on the wrong issues. It doesn't matter if Israel was founded "legally", it doesn't matter if Israel or Palestine are "terrorists".
Its not our war and the fate of America should have nothing to do with Israel. Unfortunately our leaders have commited us to being allies with Israel.
If a worst case scenario happens and Israel is attacked and occupied by its surrounding Islamic states, our President, whether it be neocon or Dim, will not hesitate to draft our young people and send them to the trenches to die for Israel. The question you should be asking yourselves is are you willing to die for Israel? Sorry, but I am not going to die for the idea of setting up an exclusively non-muslim state in the middle east, because the idea is absurd. We made Israel after WW2 and just have to live with that mistake.

[moon]

It was the Brits who made the mistake, but even so it's a mistake which cannot be ignored. Israeli influences in American government are out of hand;


Maintaining US support for Israel’s policies against the Palestinians is essential as far as the Lobby is concerned, but its ambitions do not stop there. It also wants America to help Israel remain the dominant regional power. The Israeli government and pro-Israel groups in the United States have worked together to shape the administration’s policy towards Iraq, Syria and Iran, as well as its grand scheme for reordering the Middle East.

Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical.

the war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure. According to Philip Zelikow, a former member of the president’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, and now a counsellor to Condoleezza Rice, the ‘real threat’ from Iraq was not a threat to the United States. The ‘unstated threat’ was the ‘threat against Israel’, Zelikow told an audience at the University of Virginia in September 2002.

On 16 August 2002, 11 days before Dick Cheney kicked off the campaign for war with a hardline speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Washington Post reported that ‘Israel is urging US officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq’s Saddam Hussein.’ By this point, according to Sharon, strategic co-ordination between Israel and the US had reached ‘unprecedented dimensions’, and Israeli intelligence officials had given Washington a variety of alarming reports about Iraq’s WMD programmes. As one retired Israeli general later put it, ‘Israeli intelligence was a full partner to the picture presented by American and British intelligence regarding Iraq’s non-conventional capabilities.’

At a key meeting with Bush at Camp David on 15 September, Wolfowitz advocated attacking Iraq before Afghanistan, even though there was no evidence that Saddam was involved in the attacks on the US and bin Laden was known to be in Afghanistan.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

[TheSage]

We made Israel after WW2 and just have to live with that mistake.

A) We didn't make israel.
B) We don't have to do shit.

[moon]

How about looking at things the other way ?

What good are these candidates to America ?


The leader of the Israeli Labour Party, Amir Peretz, has lost his job, throwing the future of the country's coalition government into doubt.

Exit polls after a leadership election show Mr Peretz trailing in third place.

The two men who defeated him, former Prime Minister Ehud Barak and a former head of Shin Bet, Ami Ayalon will now face a run-off vote.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6695007.stm

http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/2007/5/28/1_220661_1_5.jpg

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5665BD4D-21E2-4F05-864E-5313DE21848C.htm

[glockmail]

A) We didn't make israel.
B) We don't have to do shit.


Of course we did. And we should keep our obligations.

[theHawk]

'We' as a country once endorsed slavery and segregation, doesn't mean we had to keep it going out of 'obligation'.

[glockmail]

'We' as a country once endorsed slavery and segregation, doesn't mean we had to keep it going out of 'obligation'.

Actually the collective "we" did not. The 3/5's reprentation rule was merely a compromise to get all 13 colonies to agree to join for a higher cause. It was always a contentious issue, which had to be settled by war. Similar to the Israel situation, isn't it?

[TheSage]

Actually the collective "we" did not. The 3/5's reprentation rule was merely a compromise to get all 13 colonies to agree to join for a higher cause. It was always a contentious issue, which had to be settled by war. Similar to the Israel situation, isn't it?

The UN established israel. And policies change anyway. We are not forever bound to support israel regardless of the cost to us. This is zionist propaganda.

[glockmail]

The UN established israel. And policies change anyway. We are not forever bound to support israel regardless of the cost to us. This is zionist propaganda.

We created the UN as well. As it is no longer acting with our interests then we should therefore eliminate it. But you would not support that.

Israel, however, serves our interests, yet you want it abandoned. Very telling.

[TheSage]

We created the UN as well. As it is no longer acting with our interests then we should therefore eliminate it. But you would not support that.

Israel, however, serves our interests, yet you want it abandoned. Very telling.


No. We didn't create israel.

I want the pro-israel lobby disengaged from the reins of power in america. You neocon globalists decry nationalism, but not israeli nationalism, you decry the concept of racial supremacism, but not jewish racial supremacism. You hypocrisy and double standards are very telling. You believe america is merely a tool to be used for jewish global interests, and the jig is up.

[glockmail]

No. We didn't create israel.

I want the pro-israel lobby disengaged from the reins of power in america. You neocon globalists decry nationalism, but not israeli nationalism, you decry the concept of racial supremacism, but not jewish racial supremacism. You hypocrisy and double standards are very telling. You believe america is merely a tool to be used for jewish global interests, and the jig is up.

I notice that you did not comment on my opinion that the UN should be eliminated, since it no longer serves our national interest, nor did you comment on my opinion that Israel should be supported, since it continues to serve our national interest. Instead you responded by asserting that I am a globalist. Interesting. Weird. :laugh2:

[TheSage]

I notice that you did not comment on my opinion that the UN should be eliminated, since it no longer serves our national interest, nor did you comment on my opinion that Israel should be supported, since it continues to serve our national interest. Instead you responded by asserting that I am a globalist. Interesting. Weird. :laugh2:


How does israel serve our national interests?

[theHawk]

Israel, however, serves our interests, yet you want it abandoned. Very telling.

How exactly does Israel serve our interests? Spending billions of our tax dollars for their political movement?

[Doniston]

Actually the collective "we" did not. The 3/5's reprentation rule was merely a compromise to get all 13 colonies to agree to join for a higher cause. It was always a contentious issue, which had to be settled by war. Similar to the Israel situation, isn't it? Nope, the Israel situation isn't resolved. They may actually destroy themselves by not being reasonable.

[Kathianne]

Nope, the Israel situation isn't resolved. They may actually destroy themselves by not being reasonable.

Actually it kind of is, considering the 3/5ths compromise didn't hold. If I remember, there was a big war fought, partially from the failure of that and other 'compromises'.

[Doniston]

How does israel serve our national interests? there are those who beleive it does as, in their opinion. we "NEED" a ALLIED presence in th middleeast.

[Dilloduck]

there are those who beleive it does as, in their opinion. we "NEED" a ALLIED presence in th middleeast.

I think the question is " How are we helped by the mere "presence" of Israel ?"

[Kathianne]

I think the question is " How are we helped by the mere "presence" of Israel ?"

Well they are the edge of NATO influence. Most of the 'billions' we give them end up back in the US via miltary suppliers. They are able to infiltrate much better than the US, we'd be even more 'blind' in the ME w/o them.

[TheSage]

Well they are the edge of NATO influence. Most of the 'billions' we give them end up back in the US via miltary suppliers. They are able to infiltrate much better than the US, we'd be even more 'blind' in the ME w/o them.


this is utter crap kathianne. Take your jew-abused brainwash somewhere else. Plus, now we have iraq to be the vanguard of democracy in the middleeast.

[glockmail]

How does israel serve our national interests? By asserting a Democracy in the Middle East.

I would like you to explain to me why you accused me of being a globalist when the post that you quoted from me indicated the exact opposite.

[glockmail]

How exactly does Israel serve our interests? Spending billions of our tax dollars for their political movement? Post 125.

Also, if Iran goes nuke, Israel will attack them, saving us the trouble.

[TheSage]

By asserting a Democracy in the Middle East.

I would like you to explain to me why you accused me of being a globalist when the post that you quoted from me indicated the exact opposite.

That's of little value, especially when it's more like a race-based apartheid regime, which exacerbates the whole problematic region.

What is your feeling on jobs going to slave labor? Good for america?

[glockmail]

That's of little value, especially when it's more like a race-based apartheid regime, which exacerbates the whole problematic region.

What is your feeling on jobs going to slave labor? Good for america?

Democracy is of little value? When have we ever been to war against a fellow democracy?

Lets stay on one subject and answer my question before going on to something totally unrelated.

[TheSage]

Democracy is of little value? When have we ever been to war against a fellow democracy?

Lets stay on one subject and answer my question before going on to something totally unrelated.

The issue is the value of israel. There is no intrinsic value to democracy when it's inside a racist, theocratically inspired, apartheid regime.

[glockmail]

The issue is the value of israel. There is no intrinsic value to democracy when it's inside a racist, theocratically inspired, apartheid regime.
Why do we care if they are racist theocrats in a region full of them?

[Kathianne]

Democracy is of little value? When have we ever been to war against a fellow democracy?

Lets stay on one subject and answer my question before going on to something totally unrelated.

Some cannot understand the trends within democracy such as expanding the franchise and more freedoms, not less. Within those trends though, times of crisis can cause a stall or even reverse some, (ie Patriot Act).

[TheSage]

Some cannot understand the trends within democracy such as expanding the franchise and more freedoms, not less. Within those trends though, times of crisis can cause a stall or even reverse some, (ie Patriot Act).

What about the democratic election of hamas? Not valid? Right? Not worthy of respect? Im no big fan of hamas, but this "fighting for democracy" sloganeering is just not tenable. You really mean 'fighting for jews'. Get a grip.

[glockmail]

Some cannot understand the trends within democracy such as expanding the franchise and more freedoms, not less. Within those trends though, times of crisis can cause a stall or even reverse some, (ie Patriot Act).


How has the Patriot Act stunted the freedoms of law biding Americans?

[TheSage]

How has the Patriot Act stunted the freedoms of law biding Americans?


It's all about undoing freedoms. Omg, I'm agreeing with kathianne. Someone spank me hard and call me names.

[glockmail]

It's all about undoing freedoms. Omg, I'm agreeing with kathianne. Someone spank me hard and call me names. Teacher likes to spank.

:laugh2:

But neither one of you answered the question.

[Kathianne]

How has the Patriot Act stunted the freedoms of law biding Americans?

Perhaps, perhaps not, but it is a legal lever to curtail rights as necessary. Whether for groups or across the board.

As for comparing the Palestinian elections, I suppose one has to look at how Hamas has honored the elected officials, targeting those not anti-Israeli enough and getting many civilians killed.

[TheSage]

Teacher likes to spank.

:laugh2:

She does, believe me.

[glockmail]

Perhaps, perhaps not, but it is a legal lever to curtail rights as necessary. Whether for groups or across the board.

As for comparing the Palestinian elections, I suppose one has to look at how Hamas has honored the elected officials, targeting those not anti-Israeli enough and getting many civilians killed.

I've often heard people claim this about the Patriot Act, yet no one has ever been able to cite an example of it being used to curtail the freedoms of law abiding Americans.

The Palis have proven incapable of holding free elections since Arafat. Anyone who holds them up as pillars of democracy has a screw loose.

[glockmail]

She does, believe me. Oh, I've already experienced that. She did ban me from another site forever. :laugh2:

BTW, "believe me", has never been a line to convince most people.

[Kathianne]

I've often heard people claim this about the Patriot Act, yet no one has ever been able to cite an example of it being used to curtail the freedoms of law abiding Americans.

The Palis have proven incapable of holding free elections since Arafat. Anyone who holds them up as pillars of democracy has a screw loose.

It's there, whether or not it's being excercised. I've heard that some digging into library accounts and such, but only when warranted, which is why I don't think anyone is up in arms about it. Now if widespread digging was found, with no ties to terror, there would be problems. I've not seen anything that would lead me to think there was abuse.

[glockmail]

It's there, whether or not it's being excercised. I've heard that some digging into library accounts and such, but only when warranted, which is why I don't think anyone is up in arms about it. Now if widespread digging was found, with no ties to terror, there would be problems. I've not seen anything that would lead me to think there was abuse.
Sounds like a good law to me. And self-policing.

[moon]

the Sage;

The issue is the value of israel. There is no intrinsic value to democracy when it's inside a racist, theocratically inspired, apartheid regime.

That's good. I've posted it again because nobody had the nuts to address it and I thought it was worth a repeat. Lol.

Myself, I believe that the time is close when America, and 'allies', must decide between reinforcing the abhorrence of ethnic cleansing and apartheid that we teach in our schools or embracing the Zionist regime and the ethnic cleansing and apartheid which sustains it.

You'd think that the former would win hands down but values have been steadily eroded since Oilfinger slithered into the Oval Office. It's not unusual to find Americans applauding torture, for example.

[theHawk]

That's good. I've posted it again because nobody had the nuts to address it and I thought it was worth a repeat. Lol.


Thats exactly why we have no credit in the middle east too. How can our Presidents have the audacity to tell the surrounding Arabs countries that Israel is a shinning example of democracy for them? Its no wonder they'd rather turn to dictators.

[Kathianne]

Sounds like a good law to me. And self-policing.

Yep, the potential for mischief is there, but dangerous times do lead to some incursions by government. I'd feel a whole lot better if the nature of government weren't to always expand. With that said, I do think it's necessary.

[moon]

TheHawk;

Thats exactly why we have no credit in the middle east too. How can our Presidents have the audacity to tell the surrounding Arabs countries that Israel is a shinning example of democracy for them? Its no wonder they'd rather turn to dictators.

Yes. Israel is a democracy for Zionists, and that's what the neighbors have been saying all along.

[TheSage]

Notice there's no demands for proof of our "outrageous" claims.

[moon]

The proof is all over the world's media.

So then, the Israel Factor didn't prove all that critical at the end. The Zionists' favorite candidate lost;
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerPage.jhtml

Where is Obama with regard to Zionist international criminality, murder, theft, fascism and apartheid ? Can he manage to keep schtum until January ? His silence bears much foreboding for Justice, manufactured or natural.


theHawk;

'We' as a country once endorsed slavery and segregation, doesn't mean we had to keep it going out of 'obligation'.
How pleasant to turn up a wise contribution. That's worth using as a sig.