View Full Version : Heaven - A celestial North Korea
Watching a lecture by Christopher Hitchens, this is just a quick extract were he talks about his new book - God is not great.
Tis a most wonderful metaphor for heaven methinks. He starts talking about the book at 2:00 minutes.
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gabosaurus
02-02-2010, 01:42 PM
Obviously you don't know much about North Korea. And neither does the author.
HogTrash
02-02-2010, 01:47 PM
You would admire someone like Christopher Hitchens you poor boy.
You can certainly understand why an intelligent man like myself would consider him a moron?
The man is also an extremely boring speaker and I simply couldn't bear to listen to him lecture without hanging myself.
gabosaurus
02-02-2010, 01:53 PM
Dang, I can't believe I agree with HogTrash about something.
Obviously you don't know much about North Korea. And neither does the author.
No i don't know much of N. Korea, having never been and having only studied it during 3rd form and 5th form in school. May i ask what authority you have over the subject? And what in particular part of the description of N. Korea do you believe to be inaccurate?
You would admire someone like Christopher Hitchens you poor boy.
You can certainly understand why an intelligent man like myself would consider him a moron?
The man is also an extremely boring speaker and I simply couldn't bear to listen to him lecture without hanging myself.
I wouldn't say i admire him, i don't know enough about him to admire him. I am sorry you find him boring though, because he makes some wonderful points, whether or not you agree with them.
Gaffer
02-02-2010, 02:55 PM
Not only is he boring, he's hard to understand and can't remember what he's talking about. He mumbles a lot.
Right i get the idea, you guys don't like him, any comments on the points he raised more to the topic?
KarlMarx
02-02-2010, 03:35 PM
No i don't know much of N. Korea, having never been and having only studied it during 3rd form and 5th form in school. May i ask what authority you have over the subject? And what in particular part of the description of N. Korea do you believe to be inaccurate?
A short description. North Korea is a prison camp or, more accurately, a death camp.
A short description. North Korea is a prison camp or, more accurately, a death camp.
Indeedy, and in what way does that differ from heaven?
KarlMarx
02-03-2010, 06:09 AM
Indeedy, and in what way does that differ from heaven?
Noir, I can't explain it to you. To me Heaven is a good place and let's leave it at that.
Regarding North Korea, perhaps you ought to take a look for yourself. North Korea has a long history of human rights violations. I've seen documentaries made from film smuggled out of the country that showed people starving. In those same documentaries, defectors from that country claimed taking part in biological weapons experiments conducted on political prisoners and their familes, including children.
Noir, I can't explain it to you. To me Heaven is a good place and let's leave it at that.
Erm, actually lets not :laugh2:
Regarding North Korea, perhaps you ought to take a look for yourself. North Korea has a long history of human rights violations. I've seen documentaries made from film smuggled out of the country that showed people starving. In those same documentaries, defectors from that country claimed taking part in biological weapons experiments conducted on political prisoners and their familes, including children.
Indeedy i did see a film of tapes leaked out from N Korea a few years ago, i can only remember little of it now, and its content, but i do remember the feeling of sorrow i had for people who by the ancient of birth must live under such a state.
Now, back to the meat. You made an impossibly banal comment "Heaven is a good place"
Becuase i find this whole idea of heaven amazingly horrid, indeed just as hellish as hell itself, but i am getting beyond myself. I'll open with a simple question - What exactly makes it good?
PostmodernProphet
02-03-2010, 07:21 AM
Indeedy, and in what way does that differ from heaven?
?????......gone off the deep end, Noir?.....
?????......
Do you have something to say other than mushing the buttons on your keyboard?
Edit -
?????......gone off the deep end, Noir?......
Well atleast you've added words now, i still fail to see exactly what you are driving at though,
PostmodernProphet
02-03-2010, 07:42 AM
well you have implied that heaven does not differ from North Korea.....at this point, I'm not sure if that is because you have delusions about North Korea or delusions about heaven.....you've not been very explicit yourself....
well you have implied that heaven does not differ from North Korea.....at this point, I'm not sure if that is because you have delusions about North Korea or delusions about heaven.....you've not been very explicit yourself....
Obviously there are differences, as Hitchens quips 'atleast you can die and leave N Korea'
But the metaphor of a BigBrother state still stands, you are trapped in heaven, forever, your thoughts are regulated, and so forth. Infact heaven is the perfect bigbrother state, afterall there is nothing, not even your deepest, most private thoughts, that are in any way unknown by bigbrother.
DragonStryk72
02-03-2010, 08:49 AM
Indeedy, and in what way does that differ from heaven?
Well, for one, you having nothing of your own supporting your thesis here, Noir. You've been doing thread after thread about this, almost to the point of sheer trolling, and honestly, I'm a little bit tired of explaining.
Gabs is right, he doesn't know much about N. Korea, nor do you. This does not need to be proven, nor does she need to prove it so. This is simple observation, but it takes away strength from your position. This is same sort of weak argument as throwing down hitler into a debate.
However, you are not debating, Noir. You are simply condemning those that have faith, but expect that we will take the time to prove you wrong, or more to the point, that we'll simply stop having faith. For someone so against religion, you have an unparalleled degree of obsession with it, Noir.
Has your speaker been to Heaven? If he has, could he please provide us some small measure of proof to this assertion? If he has not been to Heaven, then he obviously is simply assuming, since there is no actual statement of what heaven is like, and thus making an ass of him and you.
PostmodernProphet
02-03-2010, 09:48 AM
Obviously there are differences, as Hitchens quips 'atleast you can die and leave N Korea'
But the metaphor of a BigBrother state still stands, you are trapped in heaven, forever, your thoughts are regulated, and so forth. Infact heaven is the perfect bigbrother state, afterall there is nothing, not even your deepest, most private thoughts, that are in any way unknown by bigbrother.
atheists are amusing....simultaneously heaven is a place that does not exist, a party they didn't get invited to, and a nasty place no one would want to visit.....God is an epic failure for allowing evil, but a place where no evil is allowed is the equivalent of North Korea.....and people wonder why I consider atheists illogical.....
Well, for one, you having nothing of your own supporting your thesis here, Noir. You've been doing thread after thread about this, almost to the point of sheer trolling, and honestly, I'm a little bit tired of explaining.
LOL
Trolling?
All of the topics are different, just because they focous on religion as a general topic has does not suggest trolling, in the same way you may accuse RSR of trolling for having so many threads about Obama, no?
And just to clarify, the topics that i have made and their main question;
'Heaven - A celestial North Korea' - Questions about heaven.
'God is everywhere' - If god is everywhere is he in hell too?
'Would you murder your child?' - About believing that God always right and just.
'Being rasied from the dead' - If Lazzarus ever talked about what is was like to be dead.
And then there was a topic that Abbey created, and the one that Glock made, both of which i have posted in.
The fact that you are trying to call me out as a troll only goes to show the undeserved respect that some give to religion. To paraphrase of Douglas Adams 'Religion is considered Holy, and so you can not ask questions about it, why not? Because you're not, after all, its holy.
Gabs is right, he doesn't know much about N. Korea, nor do you. This does not need to be proven, nor does she need to prove it so. This is simple observation, but it takes away strength from your position. This is same sort of weak argument as throwing down hitler into a debate.
Knowlegde of N. Korea is a moot point, the obvious idea behind it is that of a police state / bigbrother state that heaven must be.
However, you are not debating, Noir. You are simply condemning those that have faith, but expect that we will take the time to prove you wrong, or more to the point, that we'll simply stop having faith. For someone so against religion, you have an unparalleled degree of obsession with it, Noir.
Where am i condemning anyone? No one can ever be right or wrong in these debates, but that does not mean that questions should not be asked. As for 'obsession' i just have an interest in the area, and if i have questions i ask them, if you think that i'm obsessive because of that then fair enough, but that does not mean i'm going to stop asking.
Has your speaker been to Heaven? If he has, could he please provide us some small measure of proof to this assertion? If he has not been to Heaven, then he obviously is simply assuming, since there is no actual statement of what heaven is like, and thus making an ass of him and you.
I would think not, what with him being an atheist.
True no one knows what heaven is like, but if you believe it is there then it must be something, and so i put to you, the main crunch of this debate, as i see it anyway, do you think you will have free will in heaven?
atheists are amusing....simultaneously heaven is a place that does not exist, a party they didn't get invited to, and a nasty place no one would want to visit.....God is an epic failure for allowing evil, but a place where no evil is allowed is the equivalent of North Korea.....and people wonder why I consider atheists illogical.....
Ohbby you love to play with words.
I do not believe that heaven, or any such afterlife exists, however other people do, and so i am asking them how they view heaven, because as far as i can tell if it does exist it must be a horrid place =/
And i see the argument of 'why did god let put sin in the world' as a stupid one myself.
PostmodernProphet
02-03-2010, 10:03 AM
Ohbby you love to play with words.especially when I can slap you upside the head with them......
PostmodernProphet
02-03-2010, 10:06 AM
because as far as i can tell if it does exist it must be a horrid place =/
I imagine it would appear that way to someone who spent his time denying it existed.....to me, the prospect of a pre-fall Garden of Eden is less daunting.....
what exactly do you have against it, assuming that you can put aside your disbelief long enough to contemplate it as a possibility?.....
I imagine it would appear that way to someone who spent his time denying it existed.....to me, the prospect of a pre-fall Garden of Eden is less daunting.....
what exactly do you have against it, assuming that you can put aside your disbelief long enough to contemplate it as a possibility?.....
Just the question of free will, do you think you will have free will and free thought in heaven?
PostmodernProphet
02-03-2010, 02:11 PM
I think I will be free from the urge to be disobedient.....I expect that is a "restriction" on my free will.....will I find it to be a shortcoming?.......free will shall have filled its purpose by that time.....I see it as a time to sit back, relax and enjoy life to its fullest.......
now I have answered your question, why not answer mine.....what do you have against the idea of a "heaven"?......
do you, for example, believe we will not be able to go skiing in heaven?.......that we will be prohibited from body surfing on a tropical beach?.....listen to music?.....climb mountains?......what is it that we will be prevented from doing in heaven?......ah, I know....harming each other.....you must be objecting to being prevented from harming each other...
KarlMarx
02-03-2010, 02:55 PM
Obviously there are differences, as Hitchens quips 'atleast you can die and leave N Korea'
But the metaphor of a BigBrother state still stands, you are trapped in heaven, forever, your thoughts are regulated, and so forth. Infact heaven is the perfect bigbrother state, afterall there is nothing, not even your deepest, most private thoughts, that are in any way unknown by bigbrother.
Not true. In heaven, you still have free will, but you are free from the influence of sin. And, God knows your innermost thoughts on Earth, so in that respect, it's no different than Heaven.
I think I will be free from the urge to be disobedient.....I expect that is a "restriction" on my free will.....will I find it to be a shortcoming?.......free will shall have filled its purpose by that time.....I see it as a time to sit back, relax and enjoy life to its fullest.......
Free from the urge to be disobedient? Nice.
Funny that you should see free will as nothing more than a test, so the good people can get into heaven and, er, have their free will stripped away from them, ironic no?
now I have answered your question, why not answer mine.....what do you have against the idea of a "heaven"?......
do you, for example, believe we will not be able to go skiing in heaven?.......that we will be prohibited from body surfing on a tropical beach?.....listen to music?.....climb mountains?......what is it that we will be prevented from doing in heaven?......ah, I know....harming each other.....you must be objecting to being prevented from harming each other...
The idea i have against it is the fact that anyone in heaven would be a drone, which would spend eternity praising a God, and nothing more, these drones will not have free will and you really believe that is something to aspire to?
I find it quiet delightful that the reason Christians say God gave us humans the choice to be good or bad is because he does not want us to be robots, unable to think for ourselves, no, rather what he seems to want is for us to be able to chose for ourselves for about 80 years or so, and then spend eternity as robots =/
Not true. In heaven, you still have free will, but you are free from the influence of sin. And, God knows your innermost thoughts on Earth, so in that respect, it's no different than Heaven.
You have free will? So you can chose to think thoughts of sin?
Let me put it another way, you are in a locked room and before you are 2 plates of food, one is delicious looking but laced with poison. The other has no poison, but looks much less appetising than the other. You are told that you must eat one of them, then you can leave. You chose one and either leave or die of poisoning.
Now you are put in the same room again, but this time there is only 1 meal, the not to appetising, but poison free one, you are told you must eat it to leave, you do, and leave.
In case one you had free will and choice, in case two you had free will as you chose to eat the cake, but you did not have any alternative, therefore it was not really a chose at all.
I'm sure you can see the relevance of the metaphor to this discussion, and how you can not have free will without having an alternative choice.
SassyLady
02-03-2010, 04:21 PM
You have free will? So you can chose to think thoughts of sin?
Let me put it another way, you are in a locked room and before you are 2 plates of food, one is delicious looking but laced with poison. The other has no poison, but looks much less appetising than the other. You are told that you must eat one of them, then you can leave. You chose one and either leave or die of poisoning.
Now you are put in the same room again, but this time there is only 1 meal, the not to appetising, but poison free one, you are told you must eat it to leave, you do, and leave.
In case one you had free will and choice, in case two you had free will as you chose to eat the cake, but you did not have any alternative, therefore it was not really a chose at all.
I'm sure you can see the relevance of the metaphor to this discussion, and how you can not have free will without having an alternative choice.
You chose to leave, therefore, you chose to eat a meal. You could have chosen to stay and not eat.
Your metaphor is not applicable because you are comparing a locked room to eternity.
You chose to leave, therefore, you chose to eat a meal. You could have chosen to stay and not eat.
Your metaphor is not applicable because you are comparing a locked room to eternity.
Indeedy the metaphor isn't perfect, and i knew it wouldn't be because i made it up lol, i shall try and think of a better way to word it. But i'm sure you guys know what i mean anyways,
PostmodernProphet
02-03-2010, 04:40 PM
The idea i have against it is the fact that anyone in heaven would be a drone, which would spend eternity praising a God, and nothing more, these drones will not have free will and you really believe that is something to aspire to?
I find it ironic that people who complain that God allows evil in the world also complain that we are nothing but drones without it.....in truth, it's the world you aspire to here and now...
I find it quiet delightful that the reason Christians say God gave us humans the choice to be good or bad is because he does not want us to be robots, unable to think for ourselves, no, rather what he seems to want is for us to be able to chose for ourselves for about 80 years or so, and then spend eternity as robots =/
ah, but there are advantages.....first of all I wouldn't be surrounded by those who deliberately make bad choices, second, since my goal already is to be obedient I would be able to accomplish my goals without difficulty.....let's say you aspired to run a 25 kl marathon...or barehand climbing a rock cliff.....wouldn't you prefer a world where it would be effortless?.....as for not being able to think for ourselves, you make it sound like the only choices we make in life are whether to be obedient or disobedient......are you saying that in heaven I wouldn't be able to decide if I wanted to go to Tahiti?......or the Himalyas?.....I could even decide to go to Detroit, without the risk of getting mugged......could I decide to sculpt a statue of a horse?.....paint a picture of a goldfinch?......could I make a mango and strawberry smoothie?.....maybe I could build a dune schooner and drive around Baja for a while.....could I choose to play bridge......or golf?.......what is it I won't be allowed to choose to do in heaven?.....
I suppose I won't be allowed to mock people.....but then, the atheists won't be there, so the urge will be missing as well....
Trigg
02-03-2010, 06:06 PM
Noir,
You don't agree with any religion. Believe it or not WE GET THAT.
We, however, don't need you throwing your disbelief in our faces every other day.
It's akin to someone posting on a vegetarian sight much they LOVE hunting and eating animals.
Unless you bring it up, no one gives you a hard time about being an atheist or a vegetarian. Care to return the favor?? Or does someone need to start posting videos on how to properly gut animals in the field?
PostmodernProphet
02-03-2010, 07:20 PM
Noir,
You don't agree with any religion. Believe it or not WE GET THAT.
We, however, don't need you throwing your disbelief in our faces every other day.
It's akin to someone posting on a vegetarian sight much they LOVE hunting and eating animals.
Unless you bring it up, no one gives you a hard time about being an atheist or a vegetarian. Care to return the favor?? Or does someone need to start posting videos on how to properly gut animals in the field?
he can't help it....he's a fundamentalist, evangelical atheist....
DragonStryk72
02-03-2010, 08:59 PM
You have free will? So you can chose to think thoughts of sin?
Let me put it another way, you are in a locked room and before you are 2 plates of food, one is delicious looking but laced with poison. The other has no poison, but looks much less appetising than the other. You are told that you must eat one of them, then you can leave. You chose one and either leave or die of poisoning.
Now you are put in the same room again, but this time there is only 1 meal, the not to appetising, but poison free one, you are told you must eat it to leave, you do, and leave.
In case one you had free will and choice, in case two you had free will as you chose to eat the cake, but you did not have any alternative, therefore it was not really a chose at all.
I'm sure you can see the relevance of the metaphor to this discussion, and how you can not have free will without having an alternative choice.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. That is the nature of instinct.
I choose to pick the lock and leave.
Noir,
You don't agree with any religion. Believe it or not WE GET THAT.
We, however, don't need you throwing your disbelief in our faces every other day.
It's akin to someone posting on a vegetarian sight much they LOVE hunting and eating animals.
Unless you bring it up, no one gives you a hard time about being an atheist or a vegetarian. Care to return the favor?? Or does someone need to start posting videos on how to properly gut animals in the field?
Fine.
I bring it up on plently of other forums so I guess I'll just stick with them. Obviously I was mistaken in posting what I believe to be interesting threads on religion in a religion forum on a decent website. You could of always just not come into these threads if it hurts your sensabilities, just saying.
Mr. P
02-04-2010, 12:05 AM
Fine.
I bring it up on plently of other forums so I guess I'll just stick with them. Obviously I was mistaken in posting what I believe to be interesting threads on religion in a religion forum on a decent website. You could of always just not come into these threads if it hurts your sensabilities, just saying.
If you stop posting your questions here because some may be "uncomfortable", I'll track ya down an kick yer ass, KID!
SassyLady
02-04-2010, 01:24 AM
I choose to pick the lock and leave.
Must spread rep!!! Good one!
SassyLady
02-04-2010, 01:28 AM
If you stop posting your questions here because some may be "uncomfortable", I'll track ya down an kick yer ass, KID!
And I'll tell granddaughter that you ran from a good debate!!! :coffee:
Stick around --- remember, this is a "Debate" board........and as long as you keep it respectful I have no problem with how many times you bring up the same subject Noir. Debating with you keeps me on my toes re my own belief system and either reinforces my beliefs or helps me not become stale in my beliefs. :cheers2:
Oh fair enough, the list of folks that were starting to post saying they were getting annoyed was starting to grow, but if there are others in support of it then game on it is :)
Unless you bring it up, no one gives you a hard time about being an atheist or a vegetarian. Care to return the favor?? Or does someone need to start posting videos on how to properly gut animals in the field?
Post videos of animals getting mutilated all you like, infact i think it strengthens the case for not murdering these animals, and i can assure you that if you do want to share videos of murder then i have a stockpile that i will happily share with you, that make you truly sick to your stomach when you see what we do to these poor creatures. However i never post them on websites unless i am asked, so i'm just letting you know that by posting 'how to properly gut animals' you will be asking me to post the videos i have.
I find it ironic that people who complain that God allows evil in the world also complain that we are nothing but drones without it.....in truth, it's the world you aspire to here and now...
I don't complain about 'god letting evil in the world' i see such an argument as stupid, if others want to argue it then they can, but thats for them to answer to.
ah, but there are advantages.....first of all I wouldn't be surrounded by those who deliberately make bad choices, second, since my goal already is to be obedient I would be able to accomplish my goals without difficulty.....let's say you aspired to run a 25 kl marathon...or barehand climbing a rock cliff.....wouldn't you prefer a world where it would be effortless?.....as for not being able to think for ourselves, you make it sound like the only choices we make in life are whether to be obedient or disobedient......are you saying that in heaven I wouldn't be able to decide if I wanted to go to Tahiti?......or the Himalyas?.....I could even decide to go to Detroit, without the risk of getting mugged......could I decide to sculpt a statue of a horse?.....paint a picture of a goldfinch?......could I make a mango and strawberry smoothie?.....maybe I could build a dune schooner and drive around Baja for a while.....could I choose to play bridge......or golf?.......what is it I won't be allowed to choose to do in heaven?.....
I suppose I won't be allowed to mock people.....but then, the atheists won't be there, so the urge will be missing as well....
But this is what i am driving at, you saying you "wouldn't be surrounded by those who deliberately make bad choices" but the 'people' you would be with will need to have freedom of thought striped away from them, to ensure they do not have bad thoughts.
You WANT to be a mindless, thoughtless robot for all eternity, thats a little odd, no?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. That is the nature of instinct.
I choose to pick the lock and leave.
Well thats about as evasive as you could get, i'll ask again, Do you think you would be able to think Sinful thoughts in heaven?
Indeed as i have already said the metaphor is imperfect, to be honest its difficult to think of a metaphor for God other than God itself, and so i shall leave the metaphor, until i have the wit to think of a better one.
However, the point i was driving at, which i'm sure you knew, is that a choice of one is not a choice at all. When you have no alternative you have no free will.
KarlMarx
02-04-2010, 06:31 AM
You have free will? So you can chose to think thoughts of sin?
Yes, we have a choice to sin or not to sin. If you think about it, most of the evil in the world is the result of a choice. Several examples:
Hitler chose to invade Poland and start World War II.
Charles Manson chose to have innocent people murdered.
The purges of the Soviet state were the result of a choice.
You have free will? So you can chose to think thoughts of sin?
Yes, we have a choice to sin or not to sin. If you think about it, most of the evil in the world is the result of a choice. Several examples:
Hitler chose to invade Poland and start World War II.
Charles Manson chose to have innocent people murdered.
The purges of the Soviet state were the result of a choice.
Yes i know that, obviously we have choice on earth, the question is do we have free will, and choice in heaven?
PostmodernProphet
02-04-2010, 08:14 AM
I don't complain about 'god letting evil in the world' i see such an argument as stupid, if others want to argue it then they can, but thats for them to answer to.
perhaps, but you have to admit it's a favorite argument of atheists.....
But this is what i am driving at, you saying you "wouldn't be surrounded by those who deliberately make bad choices" but the 'people' you would be with will need to have freedom of thought striped away from them, to ensure they do not have bad thoughts.
You WANT to be a mindless, thoughtless robot for all eternity, thats a little odd, no?
again, what am I deprived of?.....the possibility of lying, hating, killing unborn children?......I notice you didn't bother to respond to the rest of my post.....does a robot have the ability to choose between all the other things besides simply the good/bad choices?.....why am I a mindless, thoughtless robot just because I can no longer kill?.....especially since popular cinema tells us that robots possibly can.....
perhaps, but you have to admit it's a favorite argument of atheists.....
Indeedy it may well be, but personally such a question is missing the point.
again, what am I deprived of?.....the possibility of lying, hating, killing unborn children?......I notice you didn't bother to respond to the rest of my post.....does a robot have the ability to choose between all the other things besides simply the good/bad choices?.....why am I a mindless, thoughtless robot just because I can no longer kill?.....especially since popular cinema tells us that robots possibly can.....
You are being deprived of the ability to chose to sin. What ever way to paint that it boils down to the fact that you are going to spend eternity without free will. You will be mindless and thoughtless because you will only be able to think about what your god wants you to think, and nothing else.
As far as i can see the concept of heaven is incompatible with free choice. Which ofcourse means that you are not 'good' in heaven, for surly you can only be 'good' when you chose not to be 'bad' If there is no way to chose to be bad, or indeed, not even the knowledge of what 'bad' is, are you really being good at all?
PostmodernProphet
02-04-2010, 10:55 AM
You are being deprived of the ability to chose to sin. What ever way to paint that it boils down to the fact that you are going to spend eternity without free will.
so what it boils down to is the only thing I am being "deprived" of is doing evil.....is there some particular reason you favor doing evil?.....is it something to be missed?.....will I be sad because I'm not evil anymore?......I seem to be missing your point.......if I can do anything in the world except be evil what is the measure of my suffering?.....
You will be mindless and thoughtless because you will only be able to think about what your god wants you to think, and nothing else.
or, to look at it from another direction, the only thing I will be unable to do is that which God does not want me to do......that still leaves a whole lot of leeway......will I still be mindless and thoughtless when I choose between good thing A and good thing B?......or are you of the mind that most of what exists in the world is evil?....
As far as i can see the concept of heaven is incompatible with free choice. Which ofcourse means that you are not 'good' in heaven, for surly you can only be 'good' when you chose not to be 'bad' If there is no way to chose to be bad, or indeed, not even the knowledge of what 'bad' is, are you really being good at all?
true....I won't be "good" or "bad".....but I will "be".....and there will be plenty of different ways to "be".....none of them will be "good"....none of them will be "bad"......but that doesn't mean I won't have infinite choices of what to "be"......I could "be" an explorer, trekking through jungles......I could "be" a musician or an artist......I could "be".....well shucks, what couldn't I "be"?.....
you know, I see parallels to your argument in scripture.....in fact I find it so close a parallel it is almost frightening.....once before someone told people that they would be better off if they could choose to be evil......from whom do you take your ideas?....
Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
your argument is basically.....even though you can eat from a million different trees, because you can't eat from that one you're just mindless and thoughtless.....it would be better for you if you could choose evil as well as good......lol, I bet you've argued that we can't take Genesis 3 literally, yet we've just experienced it in real life on a DP thread.......
now I understand your avatar....the first time around it was an apple.....this time, it's Merryland Cookies!
KarlMarx
02-04-2010, 11:25 AM
Yes i know that, obviously we have choice on earth, the question is do we have free will, and choice in heaven?
I'll answer the question once again, "yes but outside the influence of sin".
BTW.. there is some disagreement on this and this is my understanding. We do not immediately go to heaven. We must wait for the final judgement before that happens. On that day, our bodies will be resurrected in a glorified state (meaning that they won't be mortal) and the Earth will be renewed (I guess to that of the Garden of Eden days).
SassyLady
02-04-2010, 04:06 PM
Noir - this is quite a lengthy article but it explains more clearly what my belief system is regarding the whole heaven/hell/god/evolution discussion.
Hope you find it intriguing:
Introduction:
Heaven and Hell
David Pratt
A theological nightmare
The idea that we live one short life on earth and then spend the rest of eternity in either a hell of torment or a heaven of bliss must rank as one of the most absurd superstitions ever invented by the human mind. No life on earth, no matter how good or how evil, could possibly justify an eternity of reward or punishment. What's more, if the Christian God created our souls, he must have given us our basic character traits, and would therefore be largely responsible for our actions, and if that is the case, there would be no justice in punishing us, or – for that matter – in rewarding us. And if this God really made us in his own image, wouldn't that reflect rather badly on God?
Another unjust feature of the traditional Christian scheme of things is that whether we're sent to heaven or hell doesn't depend on all the deeds we've done during our life but solely on whether we believe in Jesus at the moment we die. This means that an atheist who has lived an exemplary altruistic life would automatically be consigned to the flames of hell, while a person who had committed unspeakable crimes but later repented and turned to Jesus, would go to heaven. This doctrine is partly based on chapter 16, verse 16 of St Mark's Gospel, where Jesus is made to say: 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.' We can safely assume that no genuine spiritual teacher could ever have uttered such words. And indeed this verse, and in fact all the last 12 verses of the last chapter of St Mark's Gospel are known to be a forgery; they are a later interpolation and are not found in the oldest Greek manuscripts. This was admitted in a footnote in the Revised Edition of the Bible, published in the 1880s, but the forged passage was still included as part of the main text. [1] But in the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, published in 1901, the forged passage was relegated to a footnote. (Clearly, even the 'word of God' evolves!)
The really complicated theories of the article if you are interested:
http://cwg.tribe.net/thread/44cc1a25-d31d-4612-bf76-81db13c5a6cd
The conclusion:
We live in a questioning and critical age when the religious and scientific dogmas of the past are increasingly being challenged. The idea, for example, of a personal, anthropomorphic God, a sort of magnified image of ourselves, a God who created the universe and ourselves from nothing, who listens to prayers, grants favours, forgives sins, and eventually consigns us to heaven or hell – such a God finds fewer and fewer believers.
At the same time, the idea of a soulless, mechanical universe governed by nothing but chance is not very compelling either. An increasing number of scientists are seeking a more holistic, purposeful, and creative vision of life. There are, however, a few scientists who actually believe that they're on the verge of discovering a Theory of Everything, a complete and unified theory of the whole universe. Leon Lederman, the director of the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory near Chicago, has said: 'We hope to explain the entire universe in a single, simple formula that you can wear on your T-shirt.' (Surprisingly, he was quite sober at the time!) Obviously, in an infinite universe there can be no final theory, only limited theories applying to limited contexts and which break down when we go beyond those contexts. Far from being close to a Theory of Everything, official science has barely scratched the surface of reality.
It may well be true that the basic laws and principles of nature can be expressed in fairly simple terms. But what could be more straightforward, and more appealing, than the idea of universal Life and Consciousness; the idea that every entity is ensouled by a spark of divinity, which embodies in an endless variety of forms in an endless variety of worlds in each grand cycle of its evolution; that instead of being condemned to a single life on earth, followed by an eternity of heavenly bliss or the tortures of hell, we have many lives in which to unfold our full human and divine potential. According to this vision – the vision offered by the ageless wisdom religion – there are no limits to reality except those we impose through our own limited understanding. We live in a universe of spirit as well as of matter, a universe of infinite diversity and infinite wonder.
so what it boils down to is the only thing I am being "deprived" of is doing evil.....is there some particular reason you favor doing evil?.....is it something to be missed?.....will I be sad because I'm not evil anymore?......I seem to be missing your point.......if I can do anything in the world except be evil what is the measure of my suffering?.....
Yes, you are being deprived of doing evil. You are being deprived of free will, you are being deprived of being human. Indeed you will just be a shell, only able to think what your god wants you to think. Makes you wonder why he bothered with the whole earth thing in the first place, if he just wanted a heaven full of mindless drones.
or, to look at it from another direction, the only thing I will be unable to do is that which God does not want me to do......that still leaves a whole lot of leeway......will I still be mindless and thoughtless when I choose between good thing A and good thing B?......or are you of the mind that most of what exists in the world is evil?....
But how can you chose between good thing A and good thing B? Afterall, to chose one thing over another one must be better, and by consequence, one must be worse, and if you can see the bad qualities of something then you would not be able to chose it. Its very simple, you will have NO freedom, not a snippet, and you call that heavenly?
true....I won't be "good" or "bad".....but I will "be".....and there will be plenty of different ways to "be".....none of them will be "good"....none of them will be "bad"......but that doesn't mean I won't have infinite choices of what to "be"......I could "be" an explorer, trekking through jungles......I could "be" a musician or an artist......I could "be".....well shucks, what couldn't I "be"?.....
You will have no free will and no choice. You will only be whatever your god wants you to be.
you know, I see parallels to your argument in scripture.....in fact I find it so close a parallel it is almost frightening.....once before someone told people that they would be better off if they could choose to be evil......from whom do you take your ideas?....
[QUOTE]your argument is basically.....even though you can eat from a million different trees, because you can't eat from that one you're just mindless and thoughtless.....it would be better for you if you could choose evil as well as good......lol, I bet you've argued that we can't take Genesis 3 literally, yet we've just experienced it in real life on a DP thread.......
So do you think we would have been better off with no forbidden tree in the garden of Eden?
now I understand your avatar....the first time around it was an apple.....this time, it's Merryland Cookies!
Well, as a slight point of reference i don't think it was an apple, but a fruit.
I'll answer the question once again, "yes but outside the influence of sin".
BTW.. there is some disagreement on this and this is my understanding. We do not immediately go to heaven. We must wait for the final judgement before that happens. On that day, our bodies will be resurrected in a glorified state (meaning that they won't be mortal) and the Earth will be renewed (I guess to that of the Garden of Eden days).
The Garden of Eden days? And will there be a forbidden tree?
PostmodernProphet
02-10-2010, 11:25 AM
Yes, you are being deprived of doing evil. You are being deprived of free will, you are being deprived of being human. Indeed you will just be a shell, only able to think what your god wants you to think. Makes you wonder why he bothered with the whole earth thing in the first place, if he just wanted a heaven full of mindless drones.
again you equate not being able to choose evil with being mindless.....you have yet to respond to the point that there are still many choices to be made besides choosing to do evil......and obviously, the point of the "whole earth thing" was to identify those who chose to love him simply for the sake of loving him....
But how can you chose between good thing A and good thing B? Afterall, to chose one thing over another one must be better, and by consequence, one must be worse, and if you can see the bad qualities of something then you would not be able to chose it. Its very simple, you will have NO freedom, not a snippet, and you call that heavenly?
that's silly....if I am planning a vacation and can choose between going to the Canadian Rockies or going to Daytona Beach.........am I choosing between something that is good and something that is evil?.....if I am prevented from choosing something which is evil does it prevent me from making that choice?......your argument is completely meaningless...
You will have no free will and no choice. You will only be whatever your god wants you to be.
my God does not want me to be disobedient.....I will not be disobedient......but I will have a multitude of choices that I can make which do not involve disobedience.....it seems that you will only be happy if you can choose disobedience.......I can understand that.....but why are you only happy if I choose disobedience?.....is it because misery loves company?.....
So do you think we would have been better off with no forbidden tree in the garden of Eden?
I think we would have been better off if we had not chosen to disobey.....but then, that part was obvious, neh?......I expect you hope this to lead to an argument that God was at fault for forbidding something.....if he hadn't what purpose was there in having the "whole earth thing"?......
Well, as a slight point of reference i don't think it was an apple, but a fruit.
consider it poetic license....I didn't think your goal was to get us to eat Merryland Cookies, either.....
PostmodernProphet
02-10-2010, 11:26 AM
The Garden of Eden days? And will there be a forbidden tree?
since we could not choose disobedience, there would be no purpose for anything forbidden......
HogTrash
02-10-2010, 12:10 PM
The Garden of Eden days? And will there be a forbidden tree?You should stop worrying about religion, especially Christianity which is a very peaceful and charatible group of people who are a threat to no one.
Without Christianity and the teachings of Jesus Christ the world would be a much less civilized and more violent, less compassionate place.
The only religion that is oppressive to women and has organized terrorist elements that are a threat to world peace is the nation of Islam.
If you only knew all the facts you would realize that most religions of the world are the purveyors of peace, love, compassion and charity.
You have been liberally indoctrinated and PC programmed by modern day marxists to believe religion is somehow evil and "the opium of the people".
PostmodernProphet
02-10-2010, 02:16 PM
The only religion that is oppressive to women and has organized terrorist elements that are a threat to world peace is the nation of Islam.
well, the Druids were rather tough on women as I recall......and as for the Wiccans....all that skyclad business?....that was NOT a woman's idea......:dance:
HogTrash
02-10-2010, 03:17 PM
well, the Druids were rather tough on women as I recall......and as for the Wiccans....all that skyclad business?....that was NOT a woman's idea......:dance:Even Christianity has a few skeletons in it's historical closet but I am mainly referring to modern day religions.
There has always been and will always be a few wackos in the world that will create false perceptions of others.
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