Majority of Americans, Nearly 6 in 10 Young Adults, View Abortion as Morally Wrong

[-Cp]

NEW HAVEN, Conn., Jan. 21 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- On the eve of the 37th anniversary of the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade, which legalized abortion throughout the United States, a new survey shows a strong majority of Americans believe abortion to be "morally wrong."

"Millennials" (those 18-29) consider abortion to be "morally wrong" even more (58%) than Baby Boomers (those 45-64) (51%). Generation X (those 30-44) are similar to Millennials (60% see abortion as "morally wrong"). More than 6 in 10 of the Greatest Generation (those 65+) feel the same.

The most recent Knights of Columbus – Marist survey – conducted in late December and early January – is the latest in a series of such surveys commissioned by the Knights of Columbus and conducted by Marist Institute for Public Opinion. In October of 2008 and July of 2009, the survey has
been tracking an increasing trend toward the pro-life position – a trend confirmed by Gallup and Pew surveys in mid-2009. K of C – Marist surveys are available online at www.kofc.org/moralcompass (http://www.kofc.org/moralcompass).

"Americans of all ages – and younger people in even greater numbers than their parents – see abortion as something morally wrong," said Supreme Knight Carl Anderson. "America has turned a corner and is embracing life – and in doing so is embracing a future they – and all of us – can be proud of."
He added: "Advances in technology show clearly – and ever more clearly – that an unborn child is completely a human being. That, coupled with the large number of Americans who know one of the many people who has been negatively affected by abortion are certainly two of the reasons that Americans are increasingly uncomfortable with Roe v. Wade's legacy of abortion, and with abortion generally. The majority of Americans now understand that abortion has consequences, and that those consequences are not good."

The question on abortion was part of a larger survey, which will be released in the next several days.

This report presents the findings from a survey of 2,243 Americans -- including an oversample of 1,006 Millennials. Reports for Americans have a margin of error of +/-2% and for Millennials it is +/-3%. Data were collected from December 23, 2009 through January 4, 2010 using an online, probability-based panel from Knowledge Networks, Inc. Additional information is available at www.kofc.org (http://www.kofc.org). Data on the polls commissioned by the Knights of Columbus are available at www.kofc.org/moralcompass (http://www.kofc.org/moralcompass).

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/majority-of-americans-and-nearly-6-in-10-young-adults-view-abortion-as-morally-wrong-82304862.html

[Noir]

Interesting at a time when many would consider religion to be on a downward trend that anti-abortion is only holding steady but gaining strength

[PostmodernProphet]

Interesting at a time when many would consider religion to be on a downward trend that anti-abortion is only holding steady but gaining strength

abortion is not a religious issue.....it is a scientific one......

[chloe]

I am surprized by that finding. But I'm happy about it if its true.:cool:

[Noir]

abortion is not a religious issue.....it is a scientific one......

Correct it is not a religious issue, but it is a moral issue, and we atheists are forever being told that we are immoral and that you can not derive morals without God.

[chloe]

Correct it is not a religious issue, but it is a moral issue, and we atheists are forever being told that we are immoral and that you can not derive morals without God.

I have to confess I just assumed Atheists would not value life, and that most would support abortion.

[Noir]

I have to confess I just assumed Atheists would not value life, and that most would support abortion.

This is a pretty common assumption as far as i've seen, that we value life less and whatnot, =/

and then, ironicly, i hear Christians tell me that God put animals on earth for them to eat, :laugh2:

[chloe]

This is a pretty common assumption as far as i've seen, that we value life less and whatnot, =/

and then, ironicly, i hear Christians tell me that God put animals on earth for them to eat, :laugh2:

I still am not eating meat, I have stuck with it.....wink

[Noir]

I still am not eating meat, I have stuck with it.....wink

^_^
Must spread rep.

[DragonStryk72]

Well, God gave us dominion over the plants and the animals, but most christians pull a misquote there, and numerous other places. Dominion brings with it a commensurate responsibility, and in such, even when we eat the meat of animals, we can show respect and reverence. Strangely, the Native Americans got this one way before they had any understanding of Christianity.

I do understand you're an atheist, and that's fine, but I just can't look at the world, and all that is within it, and not see a greater power having created it all. Even science cannot explain it all, and I'm a sci-fi geek, if science could prove it, I would hold nothing against it. I liked the quote of Galileo Galilei "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."

Too many people these days are ceasing to see that believing in God does not mean giving leave of your senses completely. I mean the bible even says at one point, from Jesus directly, "You cannot know God", and you still get people claiming the knowledge. One guy said he "knew Jesus", and I popped off, "So, how does he take his coffee?"

[Noir]

Well, God gave us dominion over the plants and the animals, but most christians pull a misquote there, and numerous other places. Dominion brings with it a commensurate responsibility, and in such, even when we eat the meat of animals, we can show respect and reverence. Strangely, the Native Americans got this one way before they had any understanding of Christianity.

I do understand you're an atheist, and that's fine, but I just can't look at the world, and all that is within it, and not see a greater power having created it all. Even science cannot explain it all, and I'm a sci-fi geek, if science could prove it, I would hold nothing against it. I liked the quote of Galileo Galilei "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."

Too many people these days are ceasing to see that believing in God does not mean giving leave of your senses completely. I mean the bible even says at one point, from Jesus directly, "You cannot know God", and you still get people claiming the knowledge. One guy said he "knew Jesus", and I popped off, "So, how does he take his coffee?"

But why must you see a "greater power" to create, sure science doesn't have all the answers, but it is humble enough to admit it, and will keep working until it has the answer. As apose to religion which knows everything =/

On a more on topic note, we all apply our own morals in life, with or without religion, there is however a myth that atheists are immoral because they are immoral by Christian standards. Even though thats just plain stupid.

[PostmodernProphet]

Correct it is not a religious issue, but it is a moral issue, and we atheists are forever being told that we are immoral and that you can not derive morals without God.

more bullshit.....morality is simply the set of standards that people choose to regulate their actions......the most evil person in the world still has "morals".....they simply suck at choosing them.....

[Noir]

more bullshit.....morality is simply the set of standards that people choose to regulate their actions......the most evil person in the world still has "morals".....they simply suck at choosing them.....

Indeedy, but from my experiece religious folks believe they have a 'moral high ground' aftaerall their morals come from a higher power

[Trigg]

Indeedy, but from my experiece religious folks believe they have a 'moral high ground' aftaerall their morals come from a higher power

Well of course some do think they're better than the average person because they're active in their church. I think everyone has the person in their church who runs everything and looks down their noses at others because they're just "not as good".

However 90% of people who go to church are just your average person going about their lives and trying to make the world a better place to live and work in.

I'm sure there are atheists who walk around trying to cram their choices down others throats because they just know they're right and everyone else is wrong. Then you have the 90% who are just regular people going about their business.

Extremes are everywhere.

[DragonStryk72]

But why must you see a "greater power" to create, sure science doesn't have all the answers, but it is humble enough to admit it, and will keep working until it has the answer. As apose to religion which knows everything =/

On a more on topic note, we all apply our own morals in life, with or without religion, there is however a myth that atheists are immoral because they are immoral by Christian standards. Even though thats just plain stupid.

Actually, you're right, religion tries to know "everything", you missed my point. Faith, real faith, not that phony crap they'll try to sell you, does not require the absence of science, and does require humility, it's what all the truly great religious leaders realized. I've seen plenty of scientists decide they "know" how the world works, and then "poof" someone proves them wrong. Not all of them take it humbly, or admit it.

The problem is lumping. you are not all atheists, just as I am not all Christians, nor am I all Irishmen, and I would never have the sever degree of pride required to believe myself, or you, them.

Atheism is neither moral, nor immoral in and of itself, nor are Christians necessarily moral or immoral in and of themselves. A person can claim to be a Christian, then kill 100 people, which is against the whole idea of Jesus. Everyone believes themselves to be right, but that does not make them right.

Believe it or not, you have faith, Noir, just in atheism as opposed to Judaica, Buddhism, or Christianity. You take it on faith that there is no god, just as I take it on faith that there is, because science can neither prove nor disprove god. Yes, we have things that each of us believe prove ourselves right, but then, if we believed we were each wrong, then our positions would be exactly reversed, because you would actually believe in God, and I would not. By the time we find out, neither of us is going to be able to give the other the final results.

There are certain universal wrongs that pretty much everyone knows to be wrong, regardless of culture, religion, or lack of same.

[DragonStryk72]

Indeedy, but from my experiece religious folks believe they have a 'moral high ground' aftaerall their morals come from a higher power

Ah, but that immediately supposes that you are ascribing to them exactly that which they ascribe to you. They may not have morals, but you also, in this instance, are again swabbing all religious people with the same brush, deciding that your principle is superior theirs, and therefore, able to judge it.

[PostmodernProphet]

Indeedy, but from my experiece religious folks believe they have a 'moral high ground' aftaerall their morals come from a higher power

really?....in my experience people think they have a higher moral ground because they have superior reason than "religious folks"......

*cough*....

[chloe]

really?....in my experience people think they have a higher moral ground because they have superior reason than "religious folks"......

*cough*....

so subtle....:laugh2:

[PostmodernProphet]

so subtle....:laugh2:
had to make sure he tripped over it....:dance:

[Abbey Marie]

Correct it (abortion) is not a religious issue, but it is a moral issue, and we atheists are forever being told that we are immoral and that you can not derive morals without God.

6th commandment- "Thou shalt not murder". Religious and moral.

[-Cp]

6th commandment- "Thou shalt not murder". Religious and moral.

While I don't at all disagree that murdering is immoral - it's no more immoral in God's eyes than it is to break the speed limit.. .

[Abbey Marie]

While I don't at all disagree that murdering is immoral - it's no more immoral in God's eyes than it is to break the speed limit.. .

I know that is a popular belief with some, but if you reflect on it, does it really ring true that God would equate murder of one of His children, with speeding?

Also, if it is true, then why are most of the commandments about how we treat others?
5 "Honor your father and your mother (who are other humans)
6 “You shall not murder (...other humans).
7 “You shall not commit adultery (...with other humans).
8 “You shall not steal (...from other humans).
9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (who is another human)
10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house, etc., etc.,

Why not, "Thou shalt not speed on thy donkey" instead?

[Noir]

I know that is a popular belief with some, but if you reflect on it, does it really ring true that God would equate murder of one of His children, with speeding?

Also, if it is true, then why are most of the commandments about how we treat others?
5 "Honor your father and your mother (who are other humans)
6 “You shall not murder (...other humans).
7 “You shall not commit adultery (...with other humans).
8 “You shall not steal (...from other humans).
9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (who is another human)
10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house, etc., etc.,

Why not, "Thou shalt not speed on thy donkey" instead?

On a side note, nice for you to add 'other humans' to murder, as apose to other animals.

[-Cp]

I know that is a popular belief with some, but if you reflect on it, does it really ring true that God would equate murder of one of His children, with speeding?

Also, if it is true, then why are most of the commandments about how we treat others?
5 "Honor your father and your mother (who are other humans)
6 “You shall not murder (...other humans).
7 “You shall not commit adultery (...with other humans).
8 “You shall not steal (...from other humans).
9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (who is another human)
10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house, etc., etc.,

Why not, "Thou shalt not speed on thy donkey" instead?

Because like so many Christians - you make the error of quoting OT Law rather than NT grace...

If you want to quote Commandments, what did Christ say the greatest commandment was?

[PostmodernProphet]

Because like so many Christians - you make the error of quoting OT Law rather than NT grace...

If you want to quote Commandments, what did Christ say the greatest commandment was?

actually, he said the greatest was the first half of them and the second greatest was the second half of them......

[Abbey Marie]

Because like so many Christians - you make the error of quoting OT Law rather than NT grace...

If you want to quote Commandments, what did Christ say the greatest commandment was?

Error, huh? So you think the Commandments are null and void rather than expounded upon?

And either way, my points remain valid. There is a VAST difference between murder and speeding. Unless of course, you murder someone while speeding.

[DragonStryk72]

Because like so many Christians - you make the error of quoting OT Law rather than NT grace...

If you want to quote Commandments, what did Christ say the greatest commandment was?

"Love your enemy", which is often quoted as "Love your neighbor as you would love yourself"but he espoused loving even the one you would spend your whole life railing against.

[crin63]

This is a pretty common assumption as far as i've seen, that we value life less and whatnot, =/

and then, ironicly, i hear Christians tell me that God put animals on earth for them to eat, :laugh2:

The Bible says it is a doctrine of Devils to abstain from meat.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.



But why must you see a "greater power" to create, sure science doesn't have all the answers, but it is humble enough to admit it, and will keep working until it has the answer. As apose to religion which knows everything =/

On a more on topic note, we all apply our own morals in life, with or without religion, there is however a myth that atheists are immoral because they are immoral by Christian standards. Even though thats just plain stupid.

Either morality is subjective or it has an origin and a baseline. If its subjective then a person can claim anything they want to be moral, like rape and robbery. If morality has an established baseline then where did it begin? Why would murder be wrong if there isn't some measure to say otherwise? You cant say that it just comes from men because then it would be subjective.

Yes I think morality has its origins and baseline in the God of the Bible however others apply those morals to their lives even though they do not believe in God.

[Noir]

The Bible says it is a doctrine of Devils to abstain from meat.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.




Either morality is subjective or it has an origin and a baseline. If its subjective then a person can claim anything they want to be moral, like rape and robbery. If morality has an established baseline then where did it begin? Why would murder be wrong if there isn't some measure to say otherwise? You cant say that it just comes from men because then it would be subjective.

Yes I think morality has its origins and baseline in the God of the Bible however others apply those morals to their lives even though they do not believe in God.


Lol, only in religion could you find cause to call those who do not want to murder and eat the flesh of animals evil :laugh2:
Abbey, do you as for gods forgiveness for not eating meat? Though you di' eat fish.

Listen to yourself 'why would murder be wrong if there wasn't some measure to say otherwise'...by which you mean religion? Are you saying that if you were not to believe in a God or follow a religious doctrine you would happily murder because there would be nothing to stop you?

Tge golden rule, which is within every one of use tells us what is right and wrong,

[crin63]

Lol, only in religion could you find cause to call those who do not want to murder and eat the flesh of animals evil :laugh2:
Abbey, do you as for gods forgiveness for not eating meat? Though you di' eat fish.

Listen to yourself 'why would murder be wrong if there wasn't some measure to say otherwise'...by which you mean religion? Are you saying that if you were not to believe in a God or follow a religious doctrine you would happily murder because there would be nothing to stop you?

Tge golden rule, which is within every one of use tells us what is right and wrong,

The golden rule is a Bible concept and not in everyone of us. If you never taught a child right from wrong (which is based in morality) and caused all things to be subjective for that child then you would allow to be created a person who would be capable of mass murder as there would be no basis for restraint.

There was a study done about that some years ago (maybe 15), that if a child were left to their own decisions without restraint or being taught right from wrong, they would in all likelihood become a mass murderer.

[Missileman]

The golden rule is a Bible concept

Ummm...not so much

http://www.diamondhelpers.com/loveandlife/famousquotes/goldenrule.shtml


There was a study done about that some years ago (maybe 15), that if a child were left to their own decisions without restraint or being taught right from wrong, they would in all likelihood become a mass murderer.

Without actually raising a child in such a manner, and I guarantee that no child was intentionally raised in such a fashion as part of a scientific study, it would be as equally accurate to say that "in all likelihood said child would turn into a werewolf" :rolleyes:

[PostmodernProphet]

Lol, only in religion could you find cause to call those who do not want to murder and eat the flesh of animals evil ,

dude....this bullshit of taking passages out of context and turning them into lies is getting out of hand......is it deliberate or are you simply ignorant?.....

the Bible does NOT say that vegans are evil.....the full passage is as follows....


1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

is isn't abstaining from meat which is wrong, it's the imposition of dietary laws as a requisite to salvation that's wrong.....

I'm getting a bit annoyed with the shit you post about religion.....if you don't know what the fuck you are talking about, you ought not say it......

[DragonStryk72]

Lol, only in religion could you find cause to call those who do not want to murder and eat the flesh of animals evil :laugh2:
Abbey, do you as for gods forgiveness for not eating meat? Though you di' eat fish.

Listen to yourself 'why would murder be wrong if there wasn't some measure to say otherwise'...by which you mean religion? Are you saying that if you were not to believe in a God or follow a religious doctrine you would happily murder because there would be nothing to stop you?

Tge golden rule, which is within every one of use tells us what is right and wrong,

"Treat others as you would wish to be treated" is from the bible, "Love thy neighbor as you would love thyself", Noir, and again, you are showing the same hubris you are accusing us religious folk of, so what precisely is the difference? You have decided your way is superior to ours, and so you believe that we should prove to you the validity of ours, but you do nothing to prove the validity of yours. You have made atheism your religion, Noir, whether you care to see that or not.

[Noir]

dude....this bullshit of taking passages out of context and turning them into lies is getting out of hand......is it deliberate or are you simply ignorant?.....

the Bible does NOT say that vegans are evil.....the full passage is as follows....



is isn't abstaining from meat which is wrong, it's the imposition of dietary laws as a requisite to salvation that's wrong.....

I'm getting a bit annoyed with the shit you post about religion.....if you don't know what the fuck you are talking about, you ought not say it......

Hey, it was Crin63 who started saying to me "The Bible says it is a doctrine of Devils to abstain from meat."
You wana take up misinterpretation take it up with him.

[Noir]

The golden rule is a Bible concept and not in everyone of us. If you never taught a child right from wrong (which is based in morality) and caused all things to be subjective for that child then you would allow to be created a person who would be capable of mass murder as there would be no basis for restraint.

There was a study done about that some years ago (maybe 15), that if a child were left to their own decisions without restraint or being taught right from wrong, they would in all likelihood become a mass murderer.

The Golden rule is a concept that predates the bible and as been adapted for amost every religion. It is a core part of being human, you do not need to be told what is right and wrong, you know what is right and wrong.

How exactly would you suppose that humans where able to live for centuries before the bible was created and its version of the golden rules were taught? Surly all the early humans with no knowledge of good and bad would of murdered eachother, right?

[PostmodernProphet]

Hey, it was Crin63 who started saying to me "The Bible says it is a doctrine of Devils to abstain from meat."
You wana take up misinterpretation take it up with him.

it was your post I was quoting....

[Noir]

it was your post I was quoting....

I know it was, but crin made a post quoting the bible saying i was following the doctrine of Devil by not eating meat, i quoted that and laughed at it, and then you quoted me for misquoting the bible when i was just going by what crin said, so call him out for his crap interpretation, not me.

[DragonStryk72]

Pmp, don't boter any further, he still won't answer my points, and he's keeping you riled up, so anything you write will simply be more fodder for his own arguments

[Noir]

Pmp, don't boter any further, he still won't answer my points, and he's keeping you riled up, so anything you write will simply be more fodder for his own arguments

Indeedy, my apologies, i assure you there was no intention to boycott your posts, i'll go back over the thread and answer any i missed,

[Noir]

Actually, you're right, religion tries to know "everything", you missed my point. Faith, real faith, not that phony crap they'll try to sell you, does not require the absence of science, and does require humility, it's what all the truly great religious leaders realized. I've seen plenty of scientists decide they "know" how the world works, and then "poof" someone proves them wrong. Not all of them take it humbly, or admit it.

No, religion doesn't 'try' to know everything, it thinks it already does. It thinks it knows how the Universe began, how life came into being, what happens after you die, ect ect. Science does not know, but is committed to finding out the answers.
And true, many scientists have spent their whole lives working in certain fields, only to discover they had it all wrong, and i can not imagine how devastating that must be, and i'm sure some do take it badly, even Einstein refused to believe his own findings with regards quantum physics. But with every scientist and theory that is proven wrong, we know we are a step closer to knowing more about our universe.


The problem is lumping. you are not all atheists, just as I am not all Christians, nor am I all Irishmen, and I would never have the sever degree of pride required to believe myself, or you, them.

Sorry don't really understand what that means lol,


Atheism is neither moral, nor immoral in and of itself, nor are Christians necessarily moral or immoral in and of themselves. A person can claim to be a Christian, then kill 100 people, which is against the whole idea of Jesus. Everyone believes themselves to be right, but that does not make them right.

Indeedy, so what does make them right?


Believe it or not, you have faith, Noir, just in atheism as opposed to Judaica, Buddhism, or Christianity. You take it on faith that there is no god, just as I take it on faith that there is, because science can neither prove nor disprove god. Yes, we have things that each of us believe prove ourselves right, but then, if we believed we were each wrong, then our positions would be exactly reversed, because you would actually believe in God, and I would not. By the time we find out, neither of us is going to be able to give the other the final results.

This line of 'faith in atheism' does annoy me, however, i am willing to accept that i have 'faith in atheism' if you are willing to accept that we both have 'faith' that there are no fairies, or unicorns or leprechauns, afterall, we can not truly know.


There are certain universal wrongs that pretty much everyone knows to be wrong, regardless of culture, religion, or lack of same.

I concur, and we are born with this knowledge.

[Noir]

Ah, but that immediately supposes that you are ascribing to them exactly that which they ascribe to you. They may not have morals, but you also, in this instance, are again swabbing all religious people with the same brush, deciding that your principle is superior theirs, and therefore, able to judge it.

I don't believe my principle is superior, infact our principles may be the same, for example i am against, in the most cases, abortion. As i'm sure are many Christians, i would thus presume we are moral equals on that issue, however, i dare say they would not.

[Noir]

"Treat others as you would wish to be treated" is from the bible, "Love thy neighbor as you would love thyself", Noir, and again, you are showing the same hubris you are accusing us religious folk of, so what precisely is the difference? You have decided your way is superior to ours, and so you believe that we should prove to you the validity of ours, but you do nothing to prove the validity of yours. You have made atheism your religion, Noir, whether you care to see that or not.

Indeedy, there are many good teachings in the bible, as there are in Islam and Buddhism and so forth.
And again i am not saying that any of my morals are greater because other people are Christian or of any other religion, infact i'm sure i share many morals with many religious folks, however, i am often told that i am living an immoral life by not following God, which i find daft to be honest, and i know quiet a few Christians who live a much more immoral life than I, my whole point really is that we do not get morals from books or gods or anything, we have them from instinct.

[-Cp]

Error, huh? So you think the Commandments are null and void rather than expounded upon?

And either way, my points remain valid. There is a VAST difference between murder and speeding. Unless of course, you murder someone while speeding.

Yeah, the commandments are "null" in regards to us being under "the law" in which they were given. The sins they outline, however, are still talked about throughout the NT..

If we love God - we won't have the desire to practice those or any sins.

If you're referring to the consequence of the laws we abide by here in this country - sure. However, if you're referring to the condition of them both being a sin to God - you're wrong.

The Bible clearly states that "the wages of sin is death" - not it does not separate sin into categories.. it's ALL the SAME to God..

[-Cp]

The Bible says it is a doctrine of Devils to abstain from meat.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.



Nice bastardization of Scripture to somehow "prove" it's evil to not eat meat..
LOL..

[PostmodernProphet]

If you're referring to the consequence of the laws we abide by here in this country - sure. However, if you're referring to the condition of them both being a sin to God - you're wrong.

The Bible clearly states that "the wages of sin is death" - not it does not separate sin into categories.. it's ALL the SAME to God..

the purpose of the Ten Commandments is not to provide a gauge for "sin"....God specifically told Israel why he gave them the commandments....

Deut 4
5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?


over the years the Jews had perverted the law into a measure of righteousness......this is precisely what Jesus rebuked them for when he walked the earth.......we should not repeat that error....

[DragonStryk72]

I don't believe my principle is superior, infact our principles may be the same, for example i am against, in the most cases, abortion. As i'm sure are many Christians, i would thus presume we are moral equals on that issue, however, i dare say they would not.

ah, but referring to the difference on belief in a higher power we different. you hold you belief in there not being one as the superior position, just as I believe the opposite, that there is a god.

[DragonStryk72]

Indeedy, there are many good teachings in the bible, as there are in Islam and Buddhism and so forth.
And again i am not saying that any of my morals are greater because other people are Christian or of any other religion, infact i'm sure i share many morals with many religious folks, however, i am often told that i am living an immoral life by not following God, which i find daft to be honest, and i know quiet a few Christians who live a much more immoral life than I, my whole point really is that we do not get morals from books or gods or anything, we have them from instinct.

Yep, and I crib from them as well, such as the Buddhist principle, "Respect all living things". I also like how the Native Americans viewed eating meat, that they venerated the spirit of the hunted animal for its sacrifice.

Actually, we do not have morals by instinct. Look at any baby out there, it will cry every single time it wants something, and about 2 years old, the child has worked out that it can force behavior and it does. It's not until the child is taught morals by its parents that it begins to really learn.

This is not saying that man is inherently evil, just amoral, we are born neither moral nor immoral. We are taught the morals of our parents first, whether or not we follow those later on, until such time as we develop our own moral and ethical codes. Each moral code has a core foundation, whether born out of religion, out of duty (such as the code in Sparta), or out of necessity, morality is not instinctual. It feels as such to us because we have worked out right from wrong, as we see it from our experiences, but it still remains something to be taught.

[Noir]

ah, but referring to the difference on belief in a higher power we different. you hold you belief in there not being one as the superior position, just as I believe the opposite, that there is a god.

I'm not really sure if i follow that so much, i think feeling 'superior' is a notion that comes from 'knowing' and as such is really for extremists, on both sides, i.e. those who say there is certainly a god and those who say there is certainly not a god. Both of which are idiots, but should not be confused with the moderates on either side. The problem then comes about that many religious people believe they 'know' and thus claim a moral superiority.

[Noir]

Yep, and I crib from them as well, such as the Buddhist principle, "Respect all living things". I also like how the Native Americans viewed eating meat, that they venerated the spirit of the hunted animal for its sacrifice.

Fair play.


Actually, we do not have morals by instinct. Look at any baby out there, it will cry every single time it wants something, and about 2 years old, the child has worked out that it can force behavior and it does. It's not until the child is taught morals by its parents that it begins to really learn.


This is not saying that man is inherently evil, just amoral, we are born neither moral nor immoral. We are taught the morals of our parents first, whether or not we follow those later on, until such time as we develop our own moral and ethical codes. Each moral code has a core foundation, whether born out of religion, out of duty (such as the code in Sparta), or out of necessity, morality is not instinctual. It feels as such to us because we have worked out right from wrong, as we see it from our experiences, but it still remains something to be taught.

Indeedy, the child gets a moral base from its parents, who got it from their parents, who got it from their parents and so on and so forth, and if you go back far enough you would go to a time of man before religion. I personally believe morals ect to be an evolved human trait, the same such morals can be seen in pack animals, and rather interestingly bats, what is their religious base for morals?

[crin63]

I know it was, but crin made a post quoting the bible saying i was following the doctrine of Devil by not eating meat, i quoted that and laughed at it, and then you quoted me for misquoting the bible when i was just going by what crin said, so call him out for his crap interpretation, not me.

There was no misinterpretation. I just posted what the Bible says. I didn't say you were evil. The Bible says the concept of abstaining from what God has called good is a doctrine of devils.

[Noir]

There was no misinterpretation. I just posted what the Bible says.

Why am i the middle man in all of this? lol, take it up with PMP.

[crin63]

Why am i the middle man in all of this? lol, take it up with PMP.

You said it was a crap interpretation. PMP never addressed me.

[Noir]

You said it was a crap interpretation. PMP never addressed me.

No but PMP addressed me, for addressing your post, and now you are addressing me for replying to PMP, so somehow having not really said anything both of you are having a proxy fight with me as the punchbag =/

[PostmodernProphet]

No but PMP addressed me, for addressing your post, and now you are addressing me for replying to PMP, so somehow having not really said anything both of you are having a proxy fight with me as the punchbag =/

good lord, you say you're an atheist....surely you are used to being a punching bag by now.....

[Noir]

good lord, you say you're an atheist....surely you are used to being a punching bag by now.....

Normaly i wouldn't mind, but as its two chirstians i'd rather see them punching each other :coffee:

[crin63]

No but PMP addressed me, for addressing your post, and now you are addressing me for replying to PMP, so somehow having not really said anything both of you are having a proxy fight with me as the punchbag =/

Mea Culpa!

I never intend/ed to use you as a punching bag and I'm seldom ever angry when I post something. I'm afraid you would bruise to easily from the lack of red meat in your diet anyway.:coffee: