Not Proud to be an American

[Agnapostate]

The reason being that birth within the United States wasn't a conscious choice or decision on mine or anyone else's part, and thus doesn't constitute a substantive accomplishment. National pride therefore doesn't seem any more rational than racial or ethnic pride, particularly when racial/ethnic pride has traditionally been expressed in response to disparagement or oppression. Who can say that we've endured oppression at the hands of the political regimes or citizens of other countries in recent years?

I can say that I'm happy to be an American, since residence in a Western liberal democracy grants us rights and liberties that many in other countries lack (often courtesy of the ruling administration here), but if I'd been born in another Western liberal democracy, I wouldn't move here, since I wouldn't expect day-to-day conditions to be that significantly different. I also believe that there are certain countries (particularly those in Western and Northern Europe, such as the Scandinavian social democracies), that are ultimately better to live in than the U.S. I simply don't prefer them to an extent to uproot myself to move away from friends and family go to a country where I don't know any people or employment opportunities, and likely won't acquire them due to my lack of fluent Swedish/Norwegian/Danish, etc.

[Noir]

It is notable that the liberties that you like about the USA and 'the west' would not be granted to you in a communist state.

[Agnapostate]

It is notable that the liberties that you like about the USA and 'the west' would not be granted to you in a communist state.

I'd imagine you've gone off-topic because you're under the impression that I'm a Leninist who advocates authoritarian political organization, as some here disingenuously claim. I'm an anarcho-communist; I support the noble tradition of anarchist opposition to authoritarian ideology masquerading as "socialist." This means that I'm inclined to regard the term "socialist state" as an oxymoron, and every self-identified communist (anarchist or not) that I know of regards the term "communist state" as an oxymoron and Western contrivance, since the Marxist conception of socialism is that it's a transitory phase to stateless communism.

[Nukeman]

The reason being that birth within the United States wasn't a conscious choice or decision on mine or anyone else's part, and thus doesn't constitute a substantive accomplishment. National pride therefore doesn't seem any more rational than racial or ethnic pride, particularly when racial/ethnic pride has traditionally been expressed in response to disparagement or oppression. Who can say that we've endured oppression at the hands of the political regimes or citizens of other countries in recent years?

I can say that I'm happy to be an American, since residence in a Western liberal democracy grants us rights and liberties that many in other countries lack (often courtesy of the ruling administration here), but if I'd been born in another Western liberal democracy, I wouldn't move here, since I wouldn't expect day-to-day conditions to be that significantly different. I also believe that there are certain countries (particularly those in Western and Northern Europe, such as the Scandinavian social democracies), that are ultimately better to live in than the U.S. I simply don't prefer them to an extent to uproot myself to move away from friends and family go to a country where I don't know any people or employment opportunities, and likely won't acquire them due to my lack of fluent Swedish/Norwegian/Danish, etc.
Have you ever visited any of these Scandinavian countries??? Are you only relating your desire due to a paper you read on their economies and govt structure?? I can give you varied accounts of life in the Scandinavian countries from first hand experience.

I don't think you will find them all that welcoming of outsiders. The way their laws are set up to obtain not only employment but to purchase and own property you may find very prohibitive!!!

[Agnapostate]

Have you ever visited any of these Scandinavian countries??? Are you only relating your desire due to a paper you read on their economies and govt structure?? I can give you varied accounts of life in the Scandinavian countries from first hand experience.

Anecdotal accounts, in other words. I'll take a large amalgamation of them contained in the large data sets of empirical studies over a few cherrypicked ones any day.


I don't think you will find them all that welcoming of outsiders. The way their laws are set up to obtain not only employment but to purchase and own property you may find very prohibitive!!!

That's not particularly relevant to my main point, even if true.

[Nukeman]

It is notable that the liberties that you like about the USA and 'the west' would not be granted to you in a communist state.
He's under the factually false impression that a land with NO law is actually a land FREE for all.

He thinks that without structure their will be utopia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If he was to actually receive what he wants than he wouldn't like it as the fact that EVERYONE would take their own version of law into their own hands and handle things without govt involvement.... I would think he may find that is the last thing he wants especially with some of his ideas!!!

[Agnapostate]

He's under the factually a alse impression that a land with NO law is actually a land FREE for all.

He thinks that without structure their will be utopia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If he was to actually receive what he wants than he wouldn't like it as the fact that EVERYONE would take their own version of law into their own hands and handle things without govt involvement.... I would think he may find that is the last thing he wants especially with some of his ideas!!!

Why not try to stay on-topic and address the main point instead of posting nonsense about my "impressions"?

[Nukeman]

Anecdotal accounts, in other words. I'll take a large amalgamation of them contained in the large data sets of empirical studies over a few cherrypicked ones any day..If by "anecdotal" you mean a lifetime of observation then by all means label it anecdotal!!!




That's not particularly relevant to my main point, even if true
By all means please leave but I thought you would be more inclined to go the "native" route since after all you are "native American" and not anything else!!!

[Nukeman]

Why not try to stay on-topic and address the main point instead of posting nonsense about my "impressions"?
So your denying your statement that anarchism is preferable to a stable govt established by law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Agnapostate]

If by "anecdotal" you mean a lifetime of observation then by all means label it anecdotal!!!

The spectrum of human experiences is so widely varying that attempts to use individual accounts to make points about general trends is relatively worthless. Empirical analysis demands large data sets.


By all means please leave but I thought you would be more inclined to go the "native" route since after all you are "native American" and not anything else!!!

I explained why I had no interest in leaving. Try reading again.


So your denying your statement that anarchism is preferable to a stable govt established by law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No. Simply your misconception that anarchism entails chaos and disorder, rather than horizontal social organization with minimal hierarchies. Try to stay on topic.

[Noir]

You're an arachist-communist?
Wow, just when I thought communism couldn't get any worse xD

How ever if you feel that this is 'de-railing' then may I ask that you start another thread, one in which you describe how exactly this ideology works and what it would mean to live in such a 'state' or 'nation' or whatever you would like it called.

[Agnapostate]

You're an arachist-communist?
Wow, just when I thought communism couldn't get any worse xD

How ever if you feel that this is 'de-railing' then may I ask that you start another thread, one in which you describe how exactly this ideology works and what it would mean to live in such a 'state'

I'd ask that you read the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_communism) and perhaps even Peter Kropotkin's Anarchist Communism: Its Basis and Principles (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/kropotkin/revpamphlets/anarchistcommunism.html), and then start such a thread, so that you have a rudimentary understanding of things first and we can progress to more in-depth theoretical issues.

[Noir]

I'd ask that you read the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_communism) and perhaps even Peter Kropotkin's Anarchist Communism: Its Basis and Principles (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/kropotkin/revpamphlets/anarchistcommunism.html), and then start such a thread, so that you have a rudimentary understanding of things first and we can progress to more in-depth theoretical issues.


Righto, there's allot to read there, and I'm a slow reader, but gimme a few hours and said thread shall be created.

[Binky]

Why not try to stay on-topic and address the main point instead of posting nonsense about my "impressions"?

Sooooooooooo then.....do you really like living in America and are you really happy being an American? If you can honestly answer yes to both, then great. But if you truly don't want to be an American, and would rather live elsewhere, then by all means, hit the road Jack and don't come back, no more, no more, no more.........Tain't nothing stoppin' ya from leavin' but gettin' a passport. And that's a simple fix....

[Agnapostate]

Sooooooooooo then.....do you really like living in America and are you really happy being an American? If you can honestly answer yes to both, then great. But if you truly don't want to be an American, and would rather live elsewhere, then by all means, hit the road Jack and don't come back, no more, no more, no more.........Tain't nothing stoppin' ya from leavin' but gettin' a passport. And that's a simple fix....

Damn, no one here listens, do they? Regardless of that issue, though, do you now see why national pride is typically baseless, since birth in a particular nation-state is not a voluntary or conscious decision?

[Binky]

Damn, no one here listens, do they? Regardless of that issue, though, do you now see why national pride is typically baseless, since birth in a particular nation-state is not a voluntary or conscious decision?

Yes indeedy, I certainly do understand what you are saying....But you came across as someone who wasn't happy living here. THAT'S why I made the comment I did.......To me...........national pride is what we, as a country, has accomplished. Not the fact that we were or were not born here. That's out of our control....But what a country does, is what is prideful. Of course, that's depending on what it has done or is doing. Can't say if I had been living in Germany during ww2 that I would've been proud of my country since they put Hitler in office.....and we all know how that ended......

[Silver]

The national pride comes from the "voluntary or conscious decision" to live and stay in the country of your choosing....only a shallow twit would stay just because you started here, unless you have no means to emigrate (a bus ticket to Canada is cheap)....you're free to leave....and the sooner the better.
You're certainly no asset to this country....

:salute:

[Agnapostate]

Yes indeedy, I certainly do understand what you are saying....But you came across as someone who wasn't happy living here. THAT'S why I made the comment I did.......To me...........national pride is what we, as a country, has accomplished. Not the fact that we were or were not born here. That's out of our control....But what a country does, is what is prideful. Of course, that's depending on what it has done or is doing. Can't say if I had been living in Germany during ww2 that I would've been proud of my country since they put Hitler in office.....and we all know how that ended......

I said that I was happy to live in a Western liberal democracy; you apparently ignored it. And you're taking credit for things that you haven't actually done, aren't you? After all, you as an individual had and have no influence whatsoever over what the ruling administrations of the country do any more than those of other countries...that's evidenced enough by your opposition to the present one.

[Agnapostate]

The national pride comes from the "voluntary or conscious decision" to live and stay in the country of your choosing....only a shallow twit would stay just because you started here, unless you have no means to emigrate (a bus ticket to Canada is cheap)....you're free to leave....and the sooner the better.
You're certainly no asset to this country....

:salute:

A bus ticket to Canada is cheap. Is a move to Canada without secured prosperity cheap or easy any more than a move from one state to another would be? Try not to be stupid. I hope you won't fall into the pattern of taking credit for the accomplishment of political administrations that you had little influence over, particularly when many administrations have committed evils. I wouldn't take credit for those foul deeds.

EDIT: BTW, I don't live in the Swamp Yankee territories that you do; I live in SoCal, so a bus ticket to Canada isn't so cheap, is it? ;)

[BoogyMan]

The reason being that birth within the United States wasn't a conscious choice or decision on mine or anyone else's part, and thus doesn't constitute a substantive accomplishment. National pride therefore doesn't seem any more rational than racial or ethnic pride, particularly when racial/ethnic pride has traditionally been expressed in response to disparagement or oppression. Who can say that we've endured oppression at the hands of the political regimes or citizens of other countries in recent years?

I can say that I'm happy to be an American, since residence in a Western liberal democracy grants us rights and liberties that many in other countries lack (often courtesy of the ruling administration here), but if I'd been born in another Western liberal democracy, I wouldn't move here, since I wouldn't expect day-to-day conditions to be that significantly different. I also believe that there are certain countries (particularly those in Western and Northern Europe, such as the Scandinavian social democracies), that are ultimately better to live in than the U.S. I simply don't prefer them to an extent to uproot myself to move away from friends and family go to a country where I don't know any people or employment opportunities, and likely won't acquire them due to my lack of fluent Swedish/Norwegian/Danish, etc.

So what this boils down to is that you are a self loather who is too lazy to pack up and go to a place he thinks is better?

[Agnapostate]

So what this boils down to is that you are a self loather who is too lazy to pack up and go to a place he thinks is better?

Smells like jingoistic propaganda, Batman...what is this supposed to mean, exactly?

[Jeff]

A bus ticket to Canada is cheap. Is a move to Canada without secured prosperity cheap or easy any more than a move from one state to another would be? Try not to be stupid. I hope you won't fall into the pattern of taking credit for the accomplishment of political administrations that you had little influence over, particularly when many administrations have committed evils. I wouldn't take credit for those foul deeds.

EDIT: BTW, I don't live in the Swamp Yankee territories that you do; I live in SoCal, so a bus ticket to Canada isn't so cheap, is it? ;)

Greyhound will take ya right to the border, it use to be 59.99 to go anywhere, been a while so I am sure it has gone up, but still affordable

[Agnapostate]

Greyhound will take ya right to the border, it use to be 59.99 to go anywhere, been a while so I am sure it has gone up, but still affordable

Nothing on the topic, huh? :slap:

[Jeff]

Nothing on the topic, huh? :slap:

Nope, I think if a MAN would rather live else where, he should go, you have choose not to, that's your choice, mine would be different

[Agnapostate]

Nope, I think if a MAN would rather live else where, he should go, you have choose not to, that's your choice, mine would be different

Why not try and read the original post, which effectively rebuts every single post made after it? :poke:

[Jeff]

Why not try and read the original post, which effectively rebuts every single post made after it? :poke:

I did read it, and simply let you know greyhound is affordable, BUT being you want to get flip I will remind you

(that are ultimately better to live in than the U.S. I simply don't prefer them to an extent to uproot myself to move away from friends and family go to a country where I don't know any people or employment opportunities, and likely won't acquire them due to my lack of fluent Swedish/Norwegian/Danish, etc.)

I pasted it for you seeing as you forgot you think there may be nicer places to live, see when you grow up you will realize live your life now and be happy, ya never know when it will end

[Mr. P]

A bus ticket to Canada is cheap. Is a move to Canada without secured prosperity cheap or easy any more than a move from one state to another would be? Try not to be stupid. I hope you won't fall into the pattern of taking credit for the accomplishment of political administrations that you had little influence over, particularly when many administrations have committed evils. I wouldn't take credit for those foul deeds.

EDIT: BTW, I don't live in the Swamp Yankee territories that you do; I live in SoCal, so a bus ticket to Canada isn't so cheap, is it? ;)

I'll bet the one way ticket to Mexico is cheap..And hey, parts of it have anarchy too.

Being that you're, what, 53 yrs old or maybe a bit more? You probably have some money saved from working in this horrible Country you live in and enough to keep the drug lords happy and off yer ass.

After awhile you could learn to be proud to live there and doing it your way.

[BoogyMan]

Smells like jingoistic propaganda, Batman...what is this supposed to mean, exactly?

What we seem to be experiencing here is your assumed-intellectualist jingoist propaganda.

Marxism seems to have choked out any ability to look at your country and find much that holds value, yet you are too lazy to get up and move to parts you find more to your liking.

Are we talking about a cannot bear the sickness nor the cure situation here?

[Binky]

I said that I was happy to live in a Western liberal democracy; you apparently ignored it. And you're taking credit for things that you haven't actually done, aren't you? After all, you as an individual had and have no influence whatsoever over what the ruling administrations of the country do any more than those of other countries...that's evidenced enough by your opposition to the present one.

Huh....I'm not talking about anything I have done, but what we, as a people, have done......Who's talking about individuals? I never said I had influence over the ruling administrations....You are a bonehead. I didn't take credit for anything....

[Silver]

Nothing on the topic, huh? :slap:

There is no topic to talk about....you come across as a buffoon, that after a careful reading makes little sense and has no point....:lame2:
Your lack of any pride in your nation or yourself for that matter is your problem....its not topic for debate....
Nobody really gives a shit about you or your "feelings" or lack of them....
Try a high dive into an empty pool....you won't even make the back page of your town rag....:gives:

Libertarian Communist???

Your more of an ordinary loser Democrat

[Pericles]

The reason being that birth within the United States wasn't a conscious choice or decision on mine or anyone else's part, and thus doesn't constitute a substantive accomplishment. National pride therefore doesn't seem any more rational than racial or ethnic pride, particularly when racial/ethnic pride has traditionally been expressed in response to disparagement or oppression. Who can say that we've endured oppression at the hands of the political regimes or citizens of other countries in recent years?

I can say that I'm happy to be an American, since residence in a Western liberal democracy grants us rights and liberties that many in other countries lack (often courtesy of the ruling administration here), but if I'd been born in another Western liberal democracy, I wouldn't move here, since I wouldn't expect day-to-day conditions to be that significantly different. I also believe that there are certain countries (particularly those in Western and Northern Europe, such as the Scandinavian social democracies), that are ultimately better to live in than the U.S. I simply don't prefer them to an extent to uproot myself to move away from friends and family go to a country where I don't know any people or employment opportunities, and likely won't acquire them due to my lack of fluent Swedish/Norwegian/Danish, etc.

C'mon, Aganapostate. Pride in your home is just fine. And it doesn't require checking your critical faculty at the door. A deep appreciation, even love, of your home is not the same as turning a blind eye to all the faults of your country. Indeed, real love of country means to criticize it when its not convenient, not welcome or not popular. One of the differences between liberals and conservatives, is that we love our experiment enough to severely criticize ourselves, when we have done wrong. That love, after all, is the difference between true patriotism, and nationalism. The conservatives are "my country wrong or right" nationalists. Real patriotism involves attacking such cheap exceptionalism.

From the conservatives we can learn something: the appreciation of the way we are in a dialogue with those in the past. The country that the Framers founded, is our country. The country that Lincoln saved, is our country - no matter that we weren't alive at the time. The country that gave birth to Martin Luther King - a modern prophet who ranks with Ghandi - again, that's our country. The United States that created the world's first airplane, and that sent a man to the moon, and returned him safely to Earth - that's our country, too. As U.S. citizens, we all directly participate in the legacy of the these achievements and those individuals. That's something to be proud of - damn proud of. Damn if I'll let conservatives lay claim to this legacy, because I'm too timid to embrace it.