2 men behind airliner attempt were freed from Gitmo

[Little-Acorn]

I'm sure glad the Democrats have been screaming loud and long about how unfair it is for us to keep war prisoners at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. They are in large part responsible for a number of them being released, even though the war is far from over.

Just think: If these two had been kept there for the duration, it might have been a violation of their rights or something.

-----------------------------------

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/men-believed-northwest-airlines-plot-set-free/story?id=9434065

Two al Qaeda Leaders Behind Northwest Flight 253 Terror Plot Were Released by U.S.

By BRIAN ROSS, JOSEPH RHEE and REHAB EL-BURI
Dec. 28, 2009

Two of the four leaders allegedly behind the al Qaeda plot to blow up a Northwest Airlines passenger jet over Detroit were released by the U.S. from the Guantanamo prison in November, 2007, according to American officials and Department of Defense documents. Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for the Northwest bombing in a Monday statement that vowed more attacks on Americans.

American officials agreed to send the two terrorists from Guantanamo to Saudi Arabia where they entered into an "art therapy rehabilitation program" and were set free, according to U.S. and Saudi officials.

Guantanamo prisoner #333, Muhamad Attik al-Harbi, and prisoner #372, Said Ali Shari, were sent to Saudi Arabia on Nov. 9, 2007, according to the Defense Department log of detainees who were released from American custody. Al-Harbi has since changed his name to Muhamad al-Awfi.

Both Saudi nationals have since emerged in leadership roles in Yemen, according to U.S. officials and the men's own statements on al Qaeda propaganda tapes.

[Noir]

Ah...so we should just hold people forever, without a trail, and then well be safe =D

/sark

there is a well known quote, I can not memo who's it was, but it goes somethink like 'those who are willing to lose some of their liberties in order to gain security, will get neither'.

[Gaffer]

But, but, they were just everyday mo's picked up on the street for no reason. They were radicalized at Gitmo. Yeah, that's it. They were on their way to a kumbiya festival when they were grabbed by US troops and carted off. They're artists. They went to yemin to open an art studio.

sarcasm on pause.

[Jeff]

Ah...so we should just hold people forever, without a trail, and then well be safe =D

/sark

there is a well known quote, I can not memo who's it was, but it goes somethink like 'those who are willing to lose some of their liberties in order to gain security, will get neither'.

Noir IMO a trial is for human beings , these people may have a heart beat , but they are certainly not what I would consider human being

[Noir]

Noir IMO a trial is for human beings , these people may have a heart beat , but they are certainly not what I would consider human being

Oh I see, makes so much sense now,

prey tell, did the Germans see the Jews as human beings? Afterall if they didn't then what they did wasn't so bad...right?

Obviously I'm using an extreme case, but the point stands, the whole point of the legal system is that it is impartial and without pre-judice, once the legal systems starts decided that some humans are 'sub-human' them you've got a serious problem.

I know what you are saying, and j concur that these people are about as low as you can go, but the answer is not to further cut short our civil liberties and bring about more of a police state than there already is.

[Jeff]

Oh I see, makes so much sense now,

prey tell, did the Germans see the Jews as human beings? Afterall if they didn't then what they did wasn't so bad...right?

Obviously I'm using an extreme case, but the point stands, the whole point of the legal system is that it is impartial and without pre-judice, once the legal systems starts decided that some humans are 'sub-human' them you've got a serious problem.

I know what you are saying, and j concur that these people are about as low as you can go, but the answer is not to further cut short our civil liberties and bring about more of a police state than there already is.

Noir the Jews didn't attack Germany, they didn't feel dying for a higher being was a good thing, I understand what ya are saying but will never believe we owed those spineless S.O.B. anyhing more than a bullet in there heads
:salute:

[Monkeybone]

Ah...so we should just hold people forever, without a trail, and then well be safe =D

/sark

there is a well known quote, I can not memo who's it was, but it goes somethink like 'those who are willing to lose some of their liberties in order to gain security, will get neither'.

actually I believe you can hold them until the end of the "war". but as seeing as this being a neverending thing.... yah...

Ben Franklin said it.

[Gaffer]

Oh I see, makes so much sense now,

prey tell, did the Germans see the Jews as human beings? Afterall if they didn't then what they did wasn't so bad...right?

Obviously I'm using an extreme case, but the point stands, the whole point of the legal system is that it is impartial and without pre-judice, once the legal systems starts decided that some humans are 'sub-human' them you've got a serious problem.

I know what you are saying, and j concur that these people are about as low as you can go, but the answer is not to further cut short our civil liberties and bring about more of a police state than there already is.

We are not just dealing with animals here. We are dealing with rabid animals. The just thing to do is put them down. It protects everyone and keeps them from infecting others.

Comparing killing off rabid animals to the genocide of the nazi's is liberal bullshit. A favorite ploy. Hog would say it's more of your programing, and he would be right.

[Noir]

Noir the Jews didn't attack Germany, they didn't feel dying for a higher being was a good thing, I understand what ya are saying but will never believe we owed those spineless S.O.B. anyhing more than a bullet in there heads
:salute:


True true,

I'm not saying you owe them any thing, but you owe it to yourself and your fellow Americans not to toss liberties away,

[Kathianne]

True true,

I'm not saying you owe them any thing, but you owe it to yourself and your fellow Americans not to toss liberties away,

It's not the people throwing our liberties away, it's the government acquiescing to these regimes. It's the government pushing through more government that is not wanted by the people. Along with the government we are being denied information by the media, which to some extent is being mitigated by citizen journalists and professional journalists going on their own.

[Noir]

actually I believe you can hold them until the end of the "war". but as seeing as this being a neverending thing.... yah...

Ben Franklin said it.

Too true, the likeness to 1984 is almost sickening, liberties suspended during wartime, while wars that can nit be won are waged,

[Noir]

It's not the people throwing our liberties away, it's the government acquiescing to these regimes. It's the government pushing through more government that is not wanted by the people. Along with the government we are being denied information by the media, which to some extent is being mitigated by citizen journalists and professional journalists going on their own.


Indeedy the goverment is doing it, but it does have large, or atleast vocal, support, from folks like Mr Acorn and Gaffer, the irony is I'm a namby-pamby Liberal, who is calling for less goverment, and they are te ones that want to give the goverment to hold whoever they deems as terrorists, without trail, for as long as the like =/

[Monkeybone]

Indeedy the goverment is doing it, but it does have large, or atleast vocal, support, from folks like Mr Acorn and Gaffer, the irony is I'm a namby-pamby Liberal, who is calling for less goverment, and they are te ones that want to give the goverment to hold whoever they deems as terrorists, without trail, for as long as the like =/

dealing with terrorists is kind of a catch 22. We can go all out and wipe them out, but to do so we cross that line of what we want to stand for.

To tread a line all of the time is tiresome. But at the same time, it needs to be done. Do you just give up and hope to catch them? Or do you do something.

damned if we do, damned if we don't.

[Noir]

We are not just dealing with animals here. We are dealing with rabid animals. The just thing to do is put them down. It protects everyone and keeps them from infecting others.

Comparing killing off rabid animals to the genocide of the nazi's is liberal bullshit. A favorite ploy. Hog would say it's more of your programing, and he would be right.


So you want to give the Goverment the power to put a bullet in the brain of anyone who it deems a terrorist? Are you a retard?

*Puts on gaffers to-watch list*
1984
V for Ventetta
Do enjoy them.

[Noir]

dealing with terrorists is kind of a catch 22. We can go all out and wipe them out, but to do so we cross that line of what we want to stand for.

To tread a line all of the time is tiresome. But at the same time, it needs to be done. Do you just give up and hope to catch them? Or do you do something.

damned if we do, damned if we don't.


Quoted for truth,

Also I must spread rep...

[Gaffer]

So you want to give the Goverment the power to put a bullet in the brain of anyone who it deems a terrorist? Are you a retard?

*Puts on gaffers to-watch list*
1984
V for Ventetta
Do enjoy them.

The government already has that power. They chose to play politics instead. Gitmo is just a pawn in a huge political chess game. How the government looks is what's important. The safety of the citizens comes in a distant second.

The best way to deal with a threat is to eliminate it.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. But this whole war thing with islam or whatever they are, cults, just evil people, who can narrow it down to a fraction?
2. The way I see it, we are the Jews, of the New Holocaust, we just haven't accepted it yet, and or really know what we are getting into yet, in detail.
3. We are getting into the ovens, if you didn't know, one way or another they will get us in, as many at a time as possible, for them.
4. One sad day, kerboom, and next thing you know, a whole city will go up in a mushroom cloud.
5. Cooked in the new outside ovens.
6. If you think its not leading up to this, you're living in a dream world.
7. I am one who knows for a fact they would do it in a minute, and when they get the bomb, they will run dump f----d here to America to explode it, killing themselves and as many in the city they manage to set the thing off.
8. Its people like myself, who see the dangers ahead, and try to warn the people.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[HogTrash]

Ah...so we should just hold people forever, without a trail, and then well be safe =D

/sark

there is a well known quote, I can not memo who's it was, but it goes somethink like 'those who are willing to lose some of their liberties in order to gain security, will get neither'.To the best of my knowledge POW's have never stood trial.

They are held untill the end of the war and released to their respective nations.

Unless of course they are charged with war crimes at which time they will then stand trial.

[Noir]

To the best of my knowledge POW's have never stood trial.

They are held untill the end of the war and released to their respective nations.

Unless of course they are charged with war crimes at which time they will then stand trial.

...held until the end of a war that will never end?

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,





...held until the end of a war that will never end?



1. Right never ending, so why are we holding them?
2. Justice demands they be offed.
3. Shot in the head is justified.
4. Why release, when they will engage in war again?
5. Terrorist attacks.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[HogTrash]

...held until the end of a war that will never end?If that be the case, then they will die of old age as POWs and will thankfully be no threat to anyone untill that day comes.

It's a simple matter of priorities...What is more important, their freedom or the lives of American men, women and children?

[Noir]

Sorry bout that,

1. Right never ending, so why are we holding them?
2. Justice demands they be offed.
3. Shot in the head is justified.
4. Why release, when they will engage in war again?
5. Terrorist attacks.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

1-that's a damn good question
2-But they are not put through the justice system.
3-By what court of law?
4-If there is evidence that they are terrorists the charge them, and if convicted lock them away.
5-?

[Noir]

If that be the case, then they will die of old age as POWs and will thankfully be no threat to anyone untill that day comes.

It's a simple matter of priorities...What is more important, their freedom or the lives of American men, women and children?

And with them will die Civil Liberties that have been in place since King John and the Magna Carta.

You have the gaul to say that you are protecting the freedoms of Americans? Even you can't be that stupid.

[HogTrash]

And with them will die Civil Liberties that have been in place since King John and the Magna Carta.

You have the gaul to say that you are protecting the freedoms of Americans? Even you can't be that stupid.Civil liberties have survived many wars because there is a very distinct seperation between military justice regarding the rules of war and civilian justice regarding non-combatants.

Exactly who is the "stupid" one here peckerwood?

[Noir]

Civil liberties have survived many wars because there is a very distinct seperation between military justice regarding the rules of war and civilian justice regarding non-combatants.

Exactly who is the "stupid" one here peckerwood?

Indeedy, and what about this new era of war? Wars which can never be won, wars where the civilians may well be the military...what then?

[HogTrash]

Indeedy, and what about this new era of war? Wars which can never be won,Given enough time, all things end.


wars where the civilians may well be the military...what then?There is no such thing in the world of terrorism and I shouldn't have to explain the obvious.

[Little-Acorn]

Ah...so we should just hold people forever, without a trail, and then well be safe


Nope, just until the war is over.

As has been done by the U.S. (and every other civilized nation) for EVERY war we've been in, throughout history, without exception. For reasons that become more obvious every day, through incidents like this.

Obvious to eveyone except Noir, that is.

[HogTrash]

Nope, just until the war is over.

As has been done by the U.S. (and every other civilized nation) for EVERY war we've been in, throughout history, without exception. For reasons that become more obvious every day, through incidents like this.

Obvious to eveyone except Noir, that is.Ahhh go easy on the boy Little-Acorn...He's young, impressionable and easily misled.

He apparently believes everything the liberal media, left-wing press and his marxist professors have told him.

[MtnBiker]

...held until the end of a war that will never end?

Why will the war not end? I'm sure any US President backed by congress would sign a peace agreement to end a war, will the other side do so and uphold such an agreement? We spend valuble time and resources fighting an enemy that all of us would rather not, instead we could spend more time and resources being productive and making things better for ourselves and our childern. Is the enemy prepared to end the war? If not then they should be prepared to be held as enemy combatants until they are prepared to end the war, if that is endless, so be it.

Don't mistake a citizen's civil liberties with an enemy being removed from the battlefield. And remember it is the enemy that chooses to make airplanes and civilian targets the battlefield.

[Monkeybone]

Why will the war not end? I'm sure any US President backed by congress would sign a peace agreement to end a war, will the other side do so and uphold such an agreement? We spend valuble time and resources fighting an enemy that all of us would rather not, instead we could spend more time and resources being productive and making things better for ourselves and our childern. Is the enemy prepared to end the war? If not then they should be prepared to be held as enemy combatants until they are prepared to end the war, if that is endless, so be it.

Don't mistake a citizen's civil liberties with an enemy being removed from the battlefield. And remember it is the enemy that chooses to make airplanes and civilian targets the battlefield.

Should just stop withholding aid from any country if an attack comes from them. We stop giving them stuff see how long it would take them to start policing their own people.

[Little-Acorn]

Ahhh go easy on the boy Little-Acorn...He's young, impressionable and easily misled.

He apparently believes everything the liberal media, left-wing press and his marxist professors have told him.

Are you referring to Noir? Or to the kid who tried to blow up the airliner? Your description fits both to a T.

Please provide more details so we can tell them apart.

If possible.

:eek:

[HogTrash]

Are you referring to Noir? Or to the kid who tried to blow up the airliner? Your description fits both to a T.

Please provide more details so we can tell them apart.

If possible.

:eek:Now that you mention it, I suppose I could have been referring to either one.

Thankfully, I don't think we have to worry about gentle young Noir blowing anything up.

Although I don't believe Noir would be much help in stopping someone trying to blow something up either.

[Noir]

Given enough time, all things end.

There is no such thing in the world of terrorism and I shouldn't have to explain the obvious.

indeedy all things end at some point, but in the case of terrorists it only ends when they want it to end.


And what I meant by civilians being the military is that anyone could be a terrorist and you wouldn't know, unlike traditional state soliders.

[Noir]

Nope, just until the war is over.

As has been done by the U.S. (and every other civilized nation) for EVERY war we've been in, throughout history, without exception. For reasons that become more obvious every day, through incidents like this.

Obvious to eveyone except Noir, that is.

You are clearly not getting what I am saying. This is not like a war that the US has fought in before, it is not a war of nations, against the British, or the Germans or the Japs. It is a war against an idea, against a belief. And beliefs are bullet-proof.

It took the British Army over 30 years to stop the IRA in Northern Ireland, and did the Brits 'win' by beating the IRA? No. They won becuase the IRA wanted to call a cease fire, and if they wanted they could break that cease-fire tomorrow.
In that the 'war' lasted 30 years, the Brits had tge IRA filled to bursting with double agents, and the organisation is only a few thousand strong, that shows the sheer strength of such a group, and how difficult they are to fight with, even on a very small scale.
Now look at the size of the war the US and EU are waging, against unknown numbers, covering thousands of square miles and limited intel.

The war can not be won.
Inwhich case these men are being held indefinatly without trail. For their thought crimes.

[Kathianne]

You are clearly not getting what I am saying. This is not like a war that the US has fought in before, it is not a war of nations, against the British, or the Germans or the Japs. It is a war against an idea, against a belief. And beliefs are bullet-proof.

It took the British Army over 30 years to stop the IRA in Northern Ireland, and did the Brits 'win' by beating the IRA? No. They won becuase the IRA wanted to call a cease fire, and if they wanted they could break that cease-fire tomorrow.
In that the 'war' lasted 30 years, the Brits had tge IRA filled to bursting with double agents, and the organisation is only a few thousand strong, that shows the sheer strength of such a group, and how difficult they are to fight with, even on a very small scale.
Now look at the size of the war the US and EU are waging, against unknown numbers, covering thousands of square miles and limited intel.

The war can not be won.
Inwhich case these men are being held indefinatly without trail. For their thought crimes.
Isn't that their choice?

[Little-Acorn]

Obvious to eveyone except Noir, that is.
The war can not be won.
Inwhich case these men are being held indefinatly without trail. For their thought crimes.

Can I call 'em, or what? :lol:

Is there any limit to the self-delusion and outright insanity displayed by people such as Noir?

[Noir]

Isn't that their choice?


Sweet mother of Allah,
Can you hear yourself? Indefinate punishment, without trail is a-okay?

[Noir]

Can I call 'em, or what? :lol:

Is there any limit to the self-delusion and outright insanity displayed by people such as Noir?


Smooth move avoiding the meat of my post, taking a trimming and leaving a sound-bite comment so your mates can have a laugh about how great you (and thus they) are.
mean-while, back in the real world, care to deal with the points I made?

[Gaffer]

You are clearly not getting what I am saying. This is not like a war that the US has fought in before, it is not a war of nations, against the British, or the Germans or the Japs. It is a war against an idea, against a belief. And beliefs are bullet-proof.

It took the British Army over 30 years to stop the IRA in Northern Ireland, and did the Brits 'win' by beating the IRA? No. They won becuase the IRA wanted to call a cease fire, and if they wanted they could break that cease-fire tomorrow.
In that the 'war' lasted 30 years, the Brits had tge IRA filled to bursting with double agents, and the organisation is only a few thousand strong, that shows the sheer strength of such a group, and how difficult they are to fight with, even on a very small scale.
Now look at the size of the war the US and EU are waging, against unknown numbers, covering thousands of square miles and limited intel.

The war can not be won.
Inwhich case these men are being held indefinatly without trail. For their thought crimes.

There's a big difference between the Irish conflict and the war against islam. If England pulled out of N. Ireland the war would be over. Or the IRA could disband and the war would be over. As it is, there is still confrontation there. Just not to the extreme that it was before.

The war with islam, that is what it is, has been going on for 1300 years and is not going to end until one side or the other is completely destroyed. That's why its called the Long War. As long as there are muslims there will be a war with islam.

[Noir]

There's a big difference between the Irish conflict and the war against islam. If England pulled out of N. Ireland the war would be over. Or the IRA could disband and the war would be over. As it is, there is still confrontation there. Just not to the extreme that it was before.

The war with islam, that is what it is, has been going on for 1300 years and is not going to end until one side or the other is completely destroyed. That's why its called the Long War. As long as there are muslims there will be a war with islam.


True, The British could have pulled out of Northern Ireland, and thus let the terrorists win.

I'm not saying it's tge same, bur there is more in common with the 'war on terror' and the Northern Irish conflict, than there is with any other war th US has fought

So you agree the war will never end, and do you see it as right that people may be held without charge for aslong as the state wants?

[bullypulpit]

I'm sure glad the Democrats have been screaming loud and long about how unfair it is for us to keep war prisoners at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. They are in large part responsible for a number of them being released, even though the war is far from over.

Just think: If these two had been kept there for the duration, it might have been a violation of their rights or something.

-----------------------------------

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/men-believed-northwest-airlines-plot-set-free/story?id=9434065

Two al Qaeda Leaders Behind Northwest Flight 253 Terror Plot Were Released by U.S.

By BRIAN ROSS, JOSEPH RHEE and REHAB EL-BURI
Dec. 28, 2009

Two of the four leaders allegedly behind the al Qaeda plot to blow up a Northwest Airlines passenger jet over Detroit were released by the U.S. from the Guantanamo prison in November, 2007, according to American officials and Department of Defense documents. Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for the Northwest bombing in a Monday statement that vowed more attacks on Americans.

American officials agreed to send the two terrorists from Guantanamo to Saudi Arabia where they entered into an "art therapy rehabilitation program" and were set free, according to U.S. and Saudi officials.

Guantanamo prisoner #333, Muhamad Attik al-Harbi, and prisoner #372, Said Ali Shari, were sent to Saudi Arabia on Nov. 9, 2007, according to the Defense Department log of detainees who were released from American custody. Al-Harbi has since changed his name to Muhamad al-Awfi.

Both Saudi nationals have since emerged in leadership roles in Yemen, according to U.S. officials and the men's own statements on al Qaeda propaganda tapes.

Ummm...They were released by the BUSH administration.

[bullypulpit]

Smooth move avoiding the meat of my post, taking a trimming and leaving a sound-bite comment so your mates can have a laugh about how great you (and thus they) are.
mean-while, back in the real world, care to deal with the points I made?

My money is that he won't. But the analogy is an apt one. Beliefs take root and grow anywhere...with anyone. You think you've successfully extinguished the flames only to have a smoldering hotbed that reflashes elsewhere. In the short term, you can beat back the flames by meeting force with force. In the long run, however, the only way to defeat a movement sparked by belief is to thoroughly undermine and discredit that belief.

This is why the Bush administration's plan based on extra-judicial systems, which attempted to bypass US and international law, failed so utterly and only served to further radicalize extremist elements in the Middle East and elsewhere. The rule of law must be upheld. Our highest ideals must be held to. Thus the leaders of these extremist movements are proven wrong about America.

The unreality is that such a war can be won with torture, kangaroo courts bombs and guns. Those who cleave to that ideal are just as misguided as the extremists they claim to oppose.

[bullypulpit]

It's not the people throwing our liberties away, it's the government acquiescing to these regimes. It's the government pushing through more government that is not wanted by the people. Along with the government we are being denied information by the media, which to some extent is being mitigated by citizen journalists and professional journalists going on their own.

No dear, it was the government, in the form of the Bush administration, undermining the Constitution and the rule of law in pursuit of a war on a tactic...an ideology...a belief.

[Gaffer]

True, The British could have pulled out of Northern Ireland, and thus let the terrorists win.

I'm not saying it's tge same, bur there is more in common with the 'war on terror' and the Northern Irish conflict, than there is with any other war th US has fought

So you agree the war will never end, and do you see it as right that people may be held without charge for aslong as the state wants?

My belief is that they should be interrogated (not interviewed), get all the information out of them that can be obtained, then, shot in the head and buried in pig shit. But I'm not in charge of things, so it won't happen.

[MtnBiker]

Islamic jihadist don't commit crimes they commit acts of war. This is very much a war to them. During WWII the US held hundreds of thousands of German soldiers in prison camps throughout the US. It wasn't until the end of the war that they were released. The German soldiers were enemy combatants removed from the battlefield, the same was true of Allied soldiers held by German. Islamic jihadist when captured should be removed from the battlefield as well, until the war is over. The enemy can agree to stop the war, will they?

[Noir]

My belief is that they should be interrogated (not interviewed), get all the information out of them that can be obtained, then, shot in the head and buried in pig shit. But I'm not in charge of things, so it won't happen.


You know George Orwells 1984 was meant to be a warning, not a blue-print to follow.

But hey, if you want the state to have complete control, then fair enough, that's your call.

[MtnBiker]

Here is Osama declaration of war on America and its allies if anyone care's to read it;


The following text is the second fatwa originally published on February 23, 1998, to declare a holy war, or jihad, against the West and Israel.

It is signed by Osama bin Laden, head of al Qaeda; Ayman al-Zawahiri, head of Jihad Group in Egypt, and several other Islamic terrorist groups.

Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but God is worshipped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.
The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since God made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.

Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors. Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life." On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty God: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

Almighty God said: "O ye who believe, give your response to God and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that God cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty God also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath power over all things."

Almighty God also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."


http://http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html (/http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html)

Islamic jihadist are not comitting crimes, they are comitting acts of war!

[Joyful HoneyBee]

Sadly, some people don't comprehend the difference between holding war criminals and processing other criminals. Furthermore, those who do not study and understand history are condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Islamic jihad is merely a new twist on the war nazis exacted on the world many years ago.

[Gaffer]

You know George Orwells 1984 was meant to be a warning, not a blue-print to follow.

But hey, if you want the state to have complete control, then fair enough, that's your call.

Where in my posts did I say the state should have complete control. You asked if the captured islamist should be held indefinitely, I gave you my answer as to what to do with them.

[Noir]

Where in my posts did I say the state should have complete control. You asked if the captured islamist should be held indefinitely, I gave you my answer as to what to do with them.

You think the state should be able to hold without trail anyone who it considers terrorists, and in your 'ideal world' they should also be free to execute them.
What more power could a state have?

[HogTrash]

Here is Osama declaration of war on America and its allies if anyone care's to read it;


http://http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html (/http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html)

Islamic jihadist are not comitting crimes, they are comitting acts of war!Apparently they believe we are at war so who are we to argue with their reasoning?

We should lay waste to their lands and cities and lay claim to their natural resources and wealth.

But first we should evict all people of mid-eastern decent and the muslim faith from the US as undesirables.

[Noir]

Apparently they believe we are at war so who are we to argue with their reasoning?

We should lay waste to their lands and cities and lay claim to their natural resources and wealth.

But first we should evict all people of mid-eastern decent and the muslim faith from the US as undesirables.


Honestly hog, sometimes I think you're just too passive about these things,


...no doubt some Muslim extremist is siting talking to his friends as I type this saying "We should lay waste to their lands and cities and lay claim to their natural resources and wealth."

Will Hog see the irony? I doubt it.

[HogTrash]

Honestly hog, sometimes I think you're just too passive about these things,True.....I use to be a radical but I've mellowed with age.


...no doubt some Muslim extremist is siting talking to his friends as I type this saying "We should lay waste to their lands and cities and lay claim to their natural resources and wealth."

Will Hog see the irony? I doubt it.I just thought we might beatem to the punch.

[Noir]

True.....I use to be a radical but I've mellowed with age.

How disapointing, even you have fallen foul of liberal programing, I expected so much more from you,



I just thought we might beatem to the punch.

As suspected, the irony is lost on you.

[Gaffer]

You think the state should be able to hold without trail anyone who it considers terrorists, and in your 'ideal world' they should also be free to execute them.
What more power could a state have?

Again, your putting words in my post. Those being held at Gitmo were caught in the act or involved in planning and leading operations. They are not innocent guys just plucked off the street. Deposing of murderous fanatics is part of the duty of the state to protect the people. It also protects people of other countries.

They are not being held indefinitely, just until their execution.

[Noir]

Again, your putting words in my post. Those being held at Gitmo were caught in the act or involved in planning and leading operations. They are not innocent guys just plucked off the street. Deposing of murderous fanatics is part of the duty of the state to protect the people. It also protects people of other countries.

They are not being held indefinitely, just until their execution.

Well then submit them to a fair trail and they will be found guilty, and delt with justly.

Lol at your last comment.

[red states rule]

Sadly, some people don't comprehend the difference between holding war criminals and processing other criminals. Furthermore, those who do not study and understand history are condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Islamic jihad is merely a new twist on the war nazis exacted on the world many years ago.

Most of them do not see this as a war - but rather a long and difficult legal case

To them it is an issue that should not be resolved by the military but rather by lawyers and law books

The left has more resolve to defeat their polictal opponents rather then those who want them and their fmailies DEAD

[Jeff]

Well then submit them to a fair trail and they will be found guilty, and delt with justly.

Lol at your last comment.

I don't believe these terrorist fall into the category of prisoners of war, they don't represent ant particular country , they don't wear a uniform, They are just a group of sick individuals who want to spread terror

So why should they be treated as war criminals ? and they are not domestic criminals , so no they have no rights and do not deserve any, furthermore they attacked us, I don't think we should hold them either, why should we pay for them to survive, hell they were looking to kill and spread terror, they want terror give it to them, take them to time square in NY and let those they attacked in NY handle the punishment

[red states rule]

I don't believe these terrorist fall into the category of prisoners of war, they don't represent ant particular country , they don't wear a uniform, They are just a group of sick individuals who want to spread terror

So why should they be treated as war criminals ? and they are not domestic criminals , so no they have no rights and do not deserve any, furthermore they attacked us, I don't think we should hold them either, why should we pay for them to survive, hell they were looking to kill and spread terror, they want terror give it to them, take them to time square in NY and let those they attacked in NY handle the punishment

I cn see libs like Noir telling Winston Churchhill during WWII to make sure every Nzi POW had a copy of Mein Kmpf, German food for meals, and a trial in the British Court system

Of course the best thing we could do is to tell our troops not to take any terrorist bastards prisoner and that would solve the issue of libs like Noir fighting harder to invent their rights then to fight to defeat them

[Jeff]

I cn see libs like Noir telling Winston Churchhill during WWII to make sure every Nzi POW had a coy of Mein Kmpf, German food for meals, and a trial in the British Court system

Of course the best thing we could do is to tell our troops not to take any terrorist bastards prisoner and that would solve the issue of libs like Noir fighting harder to invent their rights then to fight to defeat them

Got to spread then

But you are exactly right, don't take no prisoners and then there will be no questions of torture or how the poor terrorist are being treated

[red states rule]

Got to spread then

But you are exactly right, don't take no prisoners and then there will be no questions of torture or how the poor terrorist are being treated

Of course, Noir would demand ACLU laywers be sent in with the troops to make sure they were there when the fighting ceased

I wonder if Noir would want to battlefield area cut off to others with "crime scene tape" so no damage to "evidence" would happen

I can see the entire area being off limits until the defense lawyers were done with it

After all, the terrorists case in court means more to libs like Noir then defeating the terrorists

[Joyful HoneyBee]

Here is a site worth examination. Much of the documentation on this site has actually been gathered and composed by members of Islamic faith.

http://www.radicalislam.org/section/understanding-radical-islam (http://www.radicalislam.org/)


Radical Islam is not merely an extreme version of Islam. It is a cultural-social ideology dominating all aspects of life. And like many violent totalitarian movements, its primary objective is to dominate all those within its reach and suppress all other ideologies, movements and beliefs in its path.

In short, Radical Islam is dedicated to the conquest of the world, by any means possible.

Radical Islam draws on widely accepted Islamic religious philosophy and customs. However the movement also draws heavily on dangerous ideas that negate basic human rights and freedoms of expression.

Not all Muslims are radical, and not all Muslims are politically motivated. In fact, most aren’t. However, when Muslims adopt a politically motivated, radical ideology, the whole world is at risk.

Radical Islam's arsenal is diverse and dangerous. Terrorism is only one of the tactics used by radicals. New tactics pop up everyday. Some are more subtle such as the use of textbooks. Others are outright violent such as terrorizing those who embrace freedom of speech.

The picture is chilling. We are at a crucial juncture. We can continue in this way, hoping for change. But we must know that by doing so, we risk losing the freedoms for which we have fought so hard.

Or, we can get involved and stop Radical Islam's march on our civilization. We urge you to inform yourselves, speak up and get active.

[red states rule]

I guess NOir has given up on this thread as well

Libs have the same determination to win over people to their political points of view as they have in defeating terrorists

[Noir]

I guess NOir has given up on this thread as well

Libs have the same determination to win over people to their political points of view as they have in defeating terrorists

I have not 'given up' on the thread, again I stress that it's pretty awkward even following a debate via a mobile phone, never mind responding to multiple posts while also keeping track and posting on other threads. Not to mention other websites. But I will get to them when I can.

[Noir]

I don't believe these terrorist fall into the category of prisoners of war, they don't represent ant particular country , they don't wear a uniform, They are just a group of sick individuals who want to spread terror

So why should they be treated as war criminals ? and they are not domestic criminals , so no they have no rights and do not deserve any, furthermore they attacked us, I don't think we should hold them either, why should we pay for them to survive, hell they were looking to kill and spread terror, they want terror give it to them, take them to time square in NY and let those they attacked in NY handle the punishment

Indeedy, this is exactly my point. See 1984 for those who 'spread terror'

They are human beings and thus, whether you like it or not are subject to the most basic of all human rights. Now maybe you want to trash the Magna Carta, but I sure as heck don't. And the fact that you guys are happy to let the state hold without trail whoever they consider a terrorist is pretty shocking IMO

[red states rule]

I have not 'given up' on the thread, again I stress that it's pretty awkward even following a debate via a mobile phone, never mind responding to multiple posts while also keeping track and posting on other threads. Not to mention other websites. But I will get to them when I can.

Fair enough Noir. I am always courious to hear from a liberal on how this is not a war but a crime issue

Considering the left has always opposed all law enforcement methods used to finding, capturing, and stoping the terrorists

[red states rule]

Indeedy, this is exactly my point. See 1984 for those who 'spread terror'

They are human beings and thus, whether you like it or not are subject to the most basic of all human rights. Now maybe you want to trash the Magna Carta, but I sure as heck don't. And the fact that you guys are happy to let the state hold without trail whoever they consider a terrorist is pretty shocking IMO

Keep trying ti uderstand them Noir, and keep trying to reason with them. They might reward you by killing your first and quick

[Noir]

I cn see libs like Noir telling Winston Churchhill during WWII to make sure every Nzi POW had a copy of Mein Kmpf, German food for meals, and a trial in the British Court system

Of course the best thing we could do is to tell our troops not to take any terrorist bastards prisoner and that would solve the issue of libs like Noir fighting harder to invent their rights then to fight to defeat them

Nopes, that was a completl different style of war, ie one with an end. This war has no end, for it is a war on an ideal.

[red states rule]

Nopes, that was a completl different style of war, ie one with an end. This war has no end, for it is a war on an ideal.

It is stil a war Noir. AQ has declared war on America and is out to kill as many of us as they can

Meanwhile, the left wants to make nice to them, and think they will all lay down their guns and bombs and join the PTA if only they are treated with love and understanding from the kind hearted left

[MtnBiker]

Nopes, that was a completl different style of war, ie one with an end. This war has no end, for it is a war on an ideal.

That's not our choice. Will the jihadists choice to end the war?

[Abbey Marie]

Just wanted to say, great thread. This is how a political message board should look, imo.

:clap: to all who posted.