Thanksgiving Discussion - split from lounge

[Agnapostate]

:D :D :D

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo18/Dolgoff/Thanksgiving.jpg

Use plenty of gravy! :dance:

[jimnyc]

:D :D :D



Use plenty of gravy!


Was there a point to this post and quite distasteful picture? Not that I believe you are here to make friends, but trying to troll in a Thanksgiving/Christmas/Easter/4th of July or any other holiday thread is lame.

[Agnapostate]

Was there a point to this post and quite distasteful picture? Not that I believe you are here to make friends, but trying to troll in a Thanksgiving/Christmas/Easter/4th of July or any other holiday thread is lame.

Yes. The systematic slaughter of the indigenous American population was the most widespread and long-lasting genocide the world has ever known. We conceal that with foodstuffs and mythical stories about cooperation now. :salute:

[jimnyc]

Yes. The systematic slaughter of the indigenous American population was the most widespread and long-lasting genocide the world has ever known. We conceal that with foodstuffs and mythical stories about cooperation now. :salute:

Some of us actually celebrate Thanksgiving by being thankful for our freedoms, our lives, our families, our health...

To try and somehow make it seem as if hundreds of years later that we are celebrating some sort of genocide is ridiculous.

If you would like to discuss/debate the origins of Thanksgiving, and your feelings about it, can you please open a new thread in the "current events" section at the top of the board. I'd rather not a nice thread in the "lounge" be ruined.

[avatar4321]

How is the celebration of Thanks between us and those previously mentioned indiginous people some sort of symbol of genocide rather than cooperation and charity? Your comments make no sense Ag.

[chloe]

:D :D :D

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo18/Dolgoff/Thanksgiving.jpg

Use plenty of gravy! :dance:

Here's some gravy for you, and even though you like to be anarchist and chaos, I still wish you a relaxing time off from studies.

Go placidly amid the noise and the haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.

As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons;
they are vexatious to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain or bitter,
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs,
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals,
and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love,
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment,
it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be.
And whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life,
keep peace in your soul.


With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.



http://www.sapphyr.net/largegems/desiderata.htm

[jimnyc]

Moving posts here from Thanksgiving thread in the lounge. I think "debating" should be done here, and leave the other thread for well wishes.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. I think the Op is one sicko mofo.
2. But its just my opinion.
3. Wait, seeing its my opinion, I'm sure he is,...hehehehehe,......:laugh2:
4. At times the Indians and New Americans didn't get along to well.
5. We got past that in time.
6. Saying that we just came over here and started killing Indians randomly, is crazy talk.
7. We still have the Indians with us, if we desired to get rid of them at that time, we surely could of.
8. The OP is a freak.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[chloe]

Sorry bout that,


1. I think the Op is one sicko mofo.
2. But its just my opinion.
3. Wait, seeing its my opinion, I'm sure he is,...hehehehehe,......:laugh2:
4. At times the Indians and New Americans didn't get along to well.
5. We got past that in time.
6. Saying that we just came over here and started killing Indians randomly, is crazy talk.
7. We still have the Indians with us, if we desired to get rid of them at that time, we surely could of.
8. The OP is a freak.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

It seems to me that Agna must have been badly mistreated in life and needs alot of compassion.

[Nukeman]

It seems to me that Agna must have been badly mistreated in life and needs alot of compassion.

No he is just a shit stirrer and likes revisionist history. We can all go back and second guess what our ancestors did but guess what!! WE CANT CHANGE WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST GOOD OR BAD. He is the type that thinks everyone should feel white guilt for the rest of eternity and never ever get on with our own lives and make our own way. He thinks we should all be held accountable for whatever transgressions our fore fathers may have done.

In simple words he is an ASSHOLE!!!!!!!!!

[Agnapostate]

Here's some gravy for you, and even though you like to be anarchist and chaos, I still wish you a relaxing time off from studies.

Who's mentioned "chaos"? :\


6. Saying that we just came over here and started killing Indians randomly, is crazy talk.

No one has made any such claims. However, a systematic campaign of destruction of indigenous society and treasonous contract violation was indeed an element of European settlement.


7. We still have the Indians with us, if we desired to get rid of them at that time, we surely could of.

Again with "We"? You had no involvement. Isn't that precisely what others attempt to illustrate through obsessive mention of "we can't control what our ancestors did!" And no, European settlers lacked the power to consciously "get rid of" the indigenous population. The vast majority of casualties were caused by infectious disease.


8. The OP is a freak.

And you're a braindead idiot. Was your mother picking at you with a coat hanger in the third trimester or something?


[drivel]

Shut your mouth if you can't say anything coherent, Pukecan. I'm merely pointing out that the actions committed against indigenous Americans constituted the largest and longest genocide in human history. That's often overlooked because of primitive misconceptions such as the Thanksgiving myth of happy cooperation.

[PostmodernProphet]

I'm not that far removed from those early European settlers....my grandmother, who was born in a sod hut in South Dakota told me stories of seeing Indians while washing clothes in the river and running home scared to tell Pa.....no mention of any genocide though, that I can recall......

[avatar4321]

I'm not that far removed from those early European settlers....my grandmother, who was born in a sod hut in South Dakota told me stories of seeing Indians while washing clothes in the river and running home scared to tell Pa.....no mention of any genocide though, that I can recall......

Thats because there is no genocide. Most of the deaths of the indians occured do to the fact that their immune systems were not immune to European diseases.

[Agnapostate]

I'm not that far removed from those early European settlers....my grandmother, who was born in a sod hut in South Dakota told me stories of seeing Indians while washing clothes in the river and running home scared to tell Pa.....no mention of any genocide though, that I can recall......

This is your own basis for genocide denial? An anecdotal account from an individual in one specific location based on murky memories? :lol:


Thats because there is no genocide. Most of the deaths of the indians occured do to the fact that their immune systems were not immune to European diseases.

You cite this fact as though it supports your claim when it does not. The fact that the majority of indigenous deaths occurred due to the spread of infectious disease does not eliminate or erase the fact that a substantial number of indigenous deaths occurred due to proactive warfare initiated by European settlers, enslavement and exploitation by Hispanic settlers in particular, etc.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. Agnus, dude, so Africa is making genocide on Americans with AIDS then, I take it?
2. Man you're a person who's working without a full deck.
3. Dude you're a rudy tootie fresh and fruitie old chum.:laugh2:
4. Get off the dope.CWN:poke:Agnus:laugh2:
5. O crap Agnus is from Californacation/Gaywood, that explains alot.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Agnapostate]

Well, as long as you're not going to actually reply...

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo18/Dolgoff/DontMessWithTexas.jpg

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. Like I said, "Get off the dope".
2. Its obvious, you're a *Freak*.
3. And no one likes you either.
4. Who could?
5. No one.
6. *Freak*.
7. You're all on your own, *Loser*.
8. There isn't another *Freak* like you within five thousand miles of you, or me for that matter.
9. You're out there man, good luck with that.
10. I've been reading your stuff, you're *Certifiable*.
11. Anyways, lots of luck!!!, you will need it!!! :laugh2::laugh2:
12. I hope I'm not coming down to hard on this *Freak*?



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Agnapostate]

At least they gave me a spellchecker when I was released from the asylum. ;)

[Nukeman]

Shut your mouth if you can't say anything coherent, Pukecan. I'm merely pointing out that the actions committed against indigenous Americans constituted the largest and longest genocide in human history. That's often overlooked because of primitive misconceptions such as the Thanksgiving myth of happy cooperation.Ahh, whats the matter "Anusprostate" you got some kind of magic machine to take you back in time to change history??? I fully understand how horrible some were to the Indians of AMERICA, but what do you intend to do about it.

You spend your time worrying about how they were treated 400 hundred years ago, but what are you doing about the treatment of the American Indian at the hands of the Indian Affairs office right now... Are you campaigning for change in how they are treated and the way the government is to this day ripping them off. Or are YOU just interested in being with the "in-crowd" cause that the "cool thing" to do over the last couple of years!?!?!?!? You claim to be an "anarchist" but all I see spew from your mouth (figuratively speaking) is the PC bull shit that is standard among all liberal brainwashed sheep. Good luck with your liberal agenda and quit fooling yourself, your no more an anarchist than Hillary Clinton is!!!


On a side note:
Have you been to an Indian reservation out west??? Do you have STRONG Indian heritage in your family?

[emmett]

Well.....this is a nice pile on Agno morning for Thanksgiving. So....I'll join in, BUT, guess what, not on the side you think.


Actually, the picture was, as Jim indicated, in very poor taste for a well wishing thread.....BUT:

The 150 year war between settlers and the Indians was actually the most deadly by double that of casualties during the "Civil War", which is said to be the most deadly war. To the argument that Indians scalped and killed innocents, I say this, we taught them I assure you.

Hell, look at the way Pilgrims lived in the northeast, torturing their own people and burning them at the steak when neighborhood scuttlebutt deemed it appropriate. If you were an attractive woman of good shape you were in for a rough ride in Salem, Mass in the 1700's. Best thing to do was eat lard and hope to get fat cause jealousy sent many of em to the cross. A good looking woman who caught the eye of a another woman's husband was sure to be judged as a temptress and that was "absolute proof" in the eyes of God, by the opinion of most of the freakos that ruled things in those days and she was put to death. She was a witch for sure, only a witch could keep her figure after three children and a hard life of cold winters, no exercise and poor conditions.

I don;t mean to take things out of context but he who has studied "real" American history will soon learn that we were nothing more in those days than a bunch of land grabbing banditos and that realll is the way it was. A much smaller group of well intended folks, the ones who brought us Thanksgiving, on the other hand were good and decent folks for the most part. It is a nice holiday for eaters and family lovers. A time to get together without excuses for why one cannot travel to Granny's, other things to do and so forth. Giving thanks is nice, helping feed the hungrey is good too but if we lived our lives a little more like that every day, instead of thinking a holiday had to be necessary to bring about the things we should do everyday, well, I think you get my point. In essence, why should this day be so special? It is simply symbolism, nothing more.

Agno, you are a jack ass! If this society you keep talking about, the supposed "Libertarian" Socialist one, was ever to be, we would be in some deep shit partner. You can scholar up all the fancy interpretations of this horseshit you want but I can tell you that the Libertarians I meet with don't percieve it to be anything like what you want, which is nothing short of Communism, and that has never worked, anywhere in the world, EVER! Spare me the details of the short lived examples you continue to define over and over again with the long words that seem to make you believe that you ride on some plane above the rest of us. It is exactly that, that makes you hard to understand for a normal dummy like me, even though I have tried but just can't relate to this sillyness you preach. I would suggest you get in your car and go somewhere and eat dinner with someone who loves you this Thanksgiving and enjoy it. Try not to think too much about the genocide that was perpetraited, the mass killing of turkeys (I'm sure the PETA folks are in hell this am), and all the negative stuff. Just be thankful we don;t live like that anymore and enjoy some stuffing.

[Joyful HoneyBee]

emmett..........but if we lived our lives a little more like that every day, instead of thinking a holiday had to be necessary to bring about the things we should do everyday, well, I think you get my point.

Well said Emmett, and since you are someone who practices this philosophy in reality that certainly lends to all the other arguments in your post.

Agna, lighten up a bit, life is too short to agonize over things we haven't the power to change. All we can do is move on with our lives and try to avoid the mistakes of our ancestors.

[PostmodernProphet]

This is your own basis for genocide denial? An anecdotal account from an individual in one specific location based on murky memories? :lol:

no, silly chaoticist, I wasn't denying "genocide"....in fact, I was giving thanks that my ancestors were participants and survived it.....


enslavement and exploitation by Hispanic settlers in particular, etc.

well thank goodness I'm not Spanish, then.....

[chloe]

Who's mentioned "chaos"? :\





I just threw that one in, for the "inner chaos":coffee:

(and i'm the one in therapy hmm?.....go figure.)

[Jeff]

It seems to me that Agna must have been badly mistreated in life and needs alot of compassion.

He just needs a effing life !!

[NightTrain]

He's a mexican-indian-communist-anarchist troll that hates whitey.

Probably more to him, but I can't bear to read any more of his borish drivel to add tags to this slow motion trainwreck named Agnapostate.

Not worth the time of day, IMHO. Just another nutjob from LA.

As far as his bizarre rants : :gives:

[namvet]

Well, as long as you're not going to actually reply...

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo18/Dolgoff/DontMessWithTexas.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Peter_Kropotkin_circa_1900.jpg/443px-Peter_Kropotkin_circa_1900.jpg

your hero or your dad ????

[Agnapostate]

You guys know I was just fucking with you anyway, right? :laugh:

Holidays aren't of much importance to me; I don't dwell on irrelevancies like naming football teams the redskins or whatever other marginal issues are being focused on these days. And no, inasmuch as I'm not Russian, Peter Kropotkin is not my dad.

[chloe]

You guys know I was just fucking with you anyway, right? :laugh:

Holidays aren't of much importance to me; I don't dwell on irrelevancies like naming football teams the redskins or whatever other marginal issues are being focused on these days. And no, inasmuch as I'm not Russian, Peter Kropotkin is not my dad.

I don't blame you if you are upset over issues that were unfair to your heritage. I just don't agree with socialism. I don't know how you think anarchy would solve problems, because I think anarchy is against establishment. So if our society was like that I probably wouldnt survive, someone stronger would just take over my house and kick me in the streets.

[Agnapostate]

I don't blame you if you are upset over issues that were unfair to your heritage.

Not really, if there's no specific impact on me. In this case, I've simply pointed out a genocide and historical reality that seems to be overlooked, along with the Armenian genocide, for example.


I just don't agree with socialism. I don't know how you think anarchy would solve problems, because I think anarchy is against establishment. So if our society was like that I probably wouldnt survive, someone stronger would just take over my house and kick me in the streets.

This is just really popular misconception. Anarchism has never involved "chaos" or "disorder," as is inaccurately perceived. It's effectively stateless socialism. Consult this first section (http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secA1.html) of the Anarchist FAQ, for example.

[PostmodernProphet]

This is just really popular misconception. Anarchism has never involved "chaos" or "disorder," as is inaccurately perceived. It's effectively stateless socialism. Consult this first section (http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secA1.html) of the Anarchist FAQ, for example.

the problem isn't that anarchists promote "chaos".....the problem is that they aren't bright enough to realize it is the natural result of what they DO promote....

[chloe]

Not really, if there's no specific impact on me. In this case, I've simply pointed out a genocide and historical reality that seems to be overlooked, along with the Armenian genocide, for example.



This is just really popular misconception. Anarchism has never involved "chaos" or "disorder," as is inaccurately perceived. It's effectively stateless socialism. Consult this first section (http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secA1.html) of the Anarchist FAQ, for example.

I don't see it possible to have a society with lack of a Leader. It seems either a dominant personality would develop and take over or lack of any leadership would be chaotic. What if everyone lived in this no leadership society and one day some atheist group decided to kill off the religious individuals in the neighborhood, what if it was a segrageted area and someone of the race opposed crosses into that territory with no leader or rules, there is no protections. What if men rapists just decided to go rape women in there neighborhood or rape the womens children and the women lived alone how can they have a defense>? Nobody would cooperate, we have leaders now and even with that nobody cooperates, so if you took away leaders and laws and protection it seems like you would have a chaos, and the weaker people would just be eliminated. (me being one of the weaker...he he...I can't support that) wink.....

[Agnapostate]

the problem isn't that anarchists promote "chaos".....the problem is that they aren't bright enough to realize it is the natural result of what they DO promote....

PMP, the idea that you are brighter than any anarchist theorist is comical and nothing more. Hell, you can debate me on the topic any time in order to illustrate that you're not even brighter than an acolyte. Run along now.


I don't see it possible to have a society with lack of a Leader. It seems either a dominant personality would develop and take over or lack of any leadership would be chaotic. What if everyone lived in this no leadership society and one day some atheist group decided to kill off the religious individuals in the neighborhood, what if it was a segrageted area and someone of the race opposed crosses into that territory with no leader or rules, there is no protections. What if men rapists just decided to go rape women in there neighborhood or rape the womens children and the women lived alone how can they have a defense>? Nobody would cooperate, we have leaders now and even with that nobody cooperates, so if you took away leaders and laws and protection it seems like you would have a chaos, and the weaker people would just be eliminated. (me being one of the weaker...he he...I can't support that) wink.....

None of that seems much different than the criticisms of democracy that a dictator or a monarchist would issue, so it's not surprising that republicans (referring to advocates of representative government, not the party) would criticize direct democracy in such a way. But again, this is merely common misconception of anarchism being related to a lack of public structure. It's something that I've encountered countless times before, but is an extremely basic error nonetheless. However, anarchism involves horizontal confederations of decentralized collectives and communes...it's the label that there will be objection to above anything else. If I called myself a "decentralist," I'd likely avoid much of this.

[Agnapostate]

Ahh, whats the matter "Anusprostate" you got some kind of magic machine to take you back in time to change history??? I fully understand how horrible some were to the Indians of AMERICA, but what do you intend to do about it.

Shut up with this asinine clownishness, Pukecan. Do you know what the most fundamental problem is with anti-reparation arguments? "We can't be blamed for what our ancestors did!" It's that reparations aren't intended to be punitive, but compensatory. If Joe's grandfather steals a valuable item from Jim's grandfather and passes it down to Joe, the fact that Joe did nothing immoral himself does not change the fact that the item should still rightfully belong to Jim by inheritance. This is augmented if Joe benefited from opportunities that Jim lacked because of the iniquity of his ancestor.

So my interest is in restoring equality of opportunity, because when the race starts and one runner trips another, the official does not declare that all is fair if the race continues without further cheating from that point forward, as the cheating runner will still benefit from his action. The fairer thing to do is to restart the race without unfair advantage. Now, complete equality of opportunity is not a feasible option in modern society, for various reasons. But reaching it to the fullest extent possible should be our interest.


On a side note:
Have you been to an Indian reservation out west??? Do you have STRONG Indian heritage in your family?

Not that I see this as a basis for anything else other than ad hominem arguments, but certainly. That's me and my grandfather back in my earlier days:

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo18/Dolgoff/scan0004-1.jpg


Agno, you are a jack ass! If this society you keep talking about, the supposed "Libertarian" Socialist one, was ever to be, we would be in some deep shit partner. You can scholar up all the fancy interpretations of this horseshit you want but I can tell you that the Libertarians I meet with don't percieve it to be anything like what you want, which is nothing short of Communism, and that has never worked, anywhere in the world, EVER!

You can't say anything on-topic or comprehend my intent, can you? But as long as you're engaging in off-topic rambling, it might as well be said that claiming that authoritarian countries were "socialist" because of their own self-descriptions has equivalent validity to claiming that the "People's Republic" of China is a legitimate people's republic because of its own self-description. Look to actions rather than words, comrade!


no, silly chaoticist, I wasn't denying "genocide"....in fact, I was giving thanks that my ancestors were participants and survived it.....

Glad to hear it; that's swell.


well thank goodness I'm not Spanish, then.....

I've said nothing against modern Spaniards.


He's a mexican-indian-communist-anarchist troll that hates whitey.

I'm not Mexican; I was born in California. Yes, I do realize we might as well be a foreign country to you Mississippi folk or whatever trailer park you're broadcasting this nonsense from. ;)

[PostmodernProphet]

PMP, the idea that you are brighter than any anarchist theorist is comical and nothing more. Hell, you can debate me on the topic any time in order to illustrate that you're not even brighter than an acolyte. Run along now.


I'm sorry Agna....if you want to debate me, you're going to have to find a topic that interests me.....juvenile hobbies like comic book collecting and anarchism won't cut it..........

[Agnapostate]

I'm sorry Agna....if you want to debate me, you're going to have to find a topic that interests me.....juvenile hobbies like comic book collecting and anarchism won't cut it..........

Heeeeeeeeeeyyyy...you...you were attempting to compare anarchism to comic book collecting in that post...weren't you? Clever cookie! :eek:

http://www.dahmus.org/blogimg/fry-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

[chloe]

None of that seems much different than the criticisms of democracy that a dictator or a monarchist would issue, so it's not surprising that republicans (referring to advocates of representative government, not the party) would criticize direct democracy in such a way. But again, this is merely common misconception of anarchism being related to a lack of public structure. It's something that I've encountered countless times before, but is an extremely basic error nonetheless. However, anarchism involves horizontal confederations of decentralized collectives and communes...it's the label that there will be objection to above anything else. If I called myself a "decentralist," I'd likely avoid much of this.

So in your anarchist society how am i protected from stronger people taking over my property or assualting me and my kids? Who's in charge to make sure my family is safe?

[chloe]

Shut up with this asinine clownishness, Pukecan. Do you know what the most fundamental problem is with anti-reparation arguments? "We can't be blamed for what our ancestors did!" It's that reparations aren't intended to be punitive, but compensatory. If Joe's grandfather steals a valuable item from Jim's grandfather and passes it down to Joe, the fact that Joe did nothing immoral himself does not change the fact that the item should still rightfully belong to Jim by inheritance. This is augmented if Joe benefited from opportunities that Jim lacked because of the iniquity of his ancestor.

So my interest is in restoring equality of opportunity, because when the race starts and one runner trips another, the official does not declare that all is fair if the race continues without further cheating from that point forward, as the cheating runner will still benefit from his action. The fairer thing to do is to restart the race without unfair advantage. Now, complete equality of opportunity is not a feasible option in modern society, for various reasons. But reaching it to the fullest extent possible should be our interest.



Not that I see this as a basis for anything else other than ad hominem arguments, but certainly. That's me and my grandfather back in my earlier days:

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo18/Dolgoff/scan0004-1.jpg



You can't say anything on-topic or comprehend my intent, can you? But as long as you're engaging in off-topic rambling, it might as well be said that claiming that authoritarian countries were "socialist" because of their own self-descriptions has equivalent validity to claiming that the "People's Republic" of China is a legitimate people's republic because of its own self-description. Look to actions rather than words, comrade!



Glad to hear it; that's swell.



I've said nothing against modern Spaniards.



I'm not Mexican; I was born in California. Yes, I do realize we might as well be a foreign country to you Mississippi folk or whatever trailer park you're broadcasting this nonsense from. ;)

Agna you were an adorable little boy, Your Grandpa looks so nice and happy. I don't know what happened later in life to make you hate everyone.

[Gaffer]

I'm sure agna's grandfather would be so pleased to see what his grandson has become.

So assuming your dreams were to come true, what position or status do you see yourself in this dram world of yours? Are you in charge or just one of the minions?

Communism is communism, no matter what descriptive word you put in front of it. Anarchy, peoples, friendly, mean, lovable, it's all the same. With a hierarchy of some sort. So at what point in the pyramid do you see yourself agna?

[Agnapostate]

So in your anarchist society how am i protected from stronger people taking over my property or assualting me and my kids? Who's in charge to make sure my family is safe?

Isn't this effectively a derivative of the same prior misconception, that anarchism entails a "law of the jungle" without public structure? In the instances that anarchism has actually been implemented, we've seen centralized, hierarchical military structure replaced with decentralized, horizontal military structure, not a complete absence of any defense forces whatsoever. The viability of these forces was related to their ideological fervor as well as the absence of dispersed knowledge problems that will afflict a hierarchical chain of command...that's the reason for the success of democracy over dictatorship. Consider, for example, this section (http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secI5.html#seci513) of the FAQ.


Agna you were an adorable little boy, Your Grandpa looks so nice and happy. I don't know what happened later in life to make you hate everyone.

There's no hatred here; there's simply a love for dark humor. :cool:

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/3/2/0/3203f799cd16ecba22ae5888266e4815.jpg


I'm sure agna's grandfather would be so pleased to see what his grandson has become.

So assuming your dreams were to come true, what position or status do you see yourself in this dram world of yours? Are you in charge or just one of the minions?

Communism is communism, no matter what descriptive word you put in front of it. Anarchy, peoples, friendly, mean, lovable, it's all the same. With a hierarchy of some sort. So at what point in the pyramid do you see yourself agna?

Your conception of "communism" is merely a Western contrivance. No "socialist" state ever described itself as "communist," because as Leninists, they held the traditional Marxist belief that socialism was a transitional phase to communism. Communism has always entailed the abolition of money, markets, and the state.

[Gaffer]

Isn't this effectively a derivative of the same prior misconception, that anarchism entails a "law of the jungle" without public structure? In the instances that anarchism has actually been implemented, we've seen centralized, hierarchical military structure replaced with decentralized, horizontal military structure, not a complete absence of any defense forces whatsoever. The viability of these forces was related to their ideological fervor as well as the absence of dispersed knowledge problems that will afflict a hierarchical chain of command...that's the reason for the success of democracy over dictatorship. Consider, for example, this section (http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secI5.html#seci513) of the FAQ.



There's no hatred here; there's simply a love for dark humor. :cool:

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/3/2/0/3203f799cd16ecba22ae5888266e4815.jpg



Your conception of "communism" is merely a Western contrivance. No "socialist" state ever described itself as "communist," because as Leninists, they held the traditional Marxist belief that socialism was a transitional phase to communism. Communism has always entailed the abolition of money, markets, and the state.

Okay, I'll try it again. At what point in the communist pyramid do you see yourself?

[Agnapostate]

Okay, I'll try it again. At what point in the communist pyramid do you see yourself?

Try it without oxymorons next time.

[chloe]

Isn't this effectively a derivative of the same prior misconception, that anarchism entails a "law of the jungle" without public structure? In the instances that anarchism has actually been implemented, we've seen centralized, hierarchical military structure replaced with decentralized, horizontal military structure, not a complete absence of any defense forces whatsoever. The viability of these forces was related to their ideological fervor as well as the absence of dispersed knowledge problems that will afflict a hierarchical chain of command...that's the reason for the success of democracy over dictatorship. Consider, for example, this section (http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secI5.html#seci513) of the FAQ.


where is implemented? So you mean military would protect me and my kids and there would be some kinds of laws as guidelines?

[Agnapostate]

where is implemented? So you mean military would protect me and my kids and there would be some kinds of laws as guidelines?

Yes, yes. Anarchism has never entailed a complete destruction of social organization, merely of hierarchical social organization. :)

[chloe]

Yes, yes. Anarchism has never entailed a complete destruction of social organization, merely of hierarchical social organization. :)

Where's my "A" at? Oh yeah and list some place that have that kind of government so I can read about it.

[Agnapostate]

Where's my "A" at? Oh yeah and list some place that have that kind of government so I can read about it.

I wrote most of this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution).

[chloe]

I wrote most of this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution).

Ok, I will read it at work.

[chloe]

I wrote most of this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution).

Good Job in your writing, basically its the majority rule of lay people, the problem is I never fit in with the majority think tank. I know how to conform at work, in social situations, but at home I think what I want do what I want. Now if I want to tip someone in that kind of society the group thinks it unnecesary because we are all equally doing a good job. I don't think that is true though. Where I work I have perfect attendance superior reviews on the quality of my work, whereas alot of my co-workers use up sick pay and call in sick 6 times in the first 3 months of the year then compalin the rest of the time about being worried they are gonna get fired if they call in sick again. Also your reprort talks about church briefly no mention that the group of people allowed all religions, they allowed free love with no boundaries,while I support relationship rights (since your society has no marriage) for gays, I don't support pedaphilia. Also I don't support abortion. So I wouldnt fit in the society, I would worry to lose my rights to have my own identity for what my personal beliefs are.

[Agnapostate]

Good Job in your writing, basically its the majority rule of lay people, the problem is I never fit in with the majority think tank. I know how to conform at work, in social situations, but at home I think what I want do what I want. Now if I want to tip someone in that kind of society the group thinks it unnecesary because we are all equally doing a good job. I don't think that is true though. Where I work I have perfect attendance superior reviews on the quality of my work, whereas alot of my co-workers use up sick pay and call in sick 6 times in the first 3 months of the year then compalin the rest of the time about being worried they are gonna get fired if they call in sick again.

Contrary to popular misconception, socialism, not even the most leftist form of communism, is not based in equal distribution regardless of labor input. Since I am a communist, I will speak of communism, and communism involves remuneration according to needs, but also deprivation of certain collective resources in the case of those able but unwilling to work. As noted by Peter Kropotkin:


Is it not evident that if a society, founded on the principle of free work, were really menaced by loafers, it would protect itself without the authoritarian organization we have nowadays, and without having recourse to wagedom?

Let us take a group of volunteers, combining for some particular enterprise. Having its success at heart, they all work with a will, save one of the associates, who is frequently absent from his post. Must they on his account dissolve the group, elect a president to impose fines, and work out a vode of penalties? It is evident that neither one nor the other will be done, but that someday the comrade who imperils their enterprise will be told: "Friend, we should like to work with you; but as you are often absent from your post, and you do your work negligently, we must part. Go and find other comrades who will put up with your indifference!"

This way is so natural that it is practiced everywhere, even nowadays, in all industries, in competition with all possible systems of fines, docking of wages, supervision, etc.; a workman may enter the factory at the appointed time, but if he does his work badly, if he hinders his comrades by his laziness or other defects, if he is quarrelsome, there is an end of it; he is compelled to leave the workshop.

So I suspect that your concerns there are based on a specific oddity of the Spanish system, and not in any larger deficiency of anarchism or anarchist communism.


Also your reprort talks about church briefly no mention that the group of people allowed all religions,

There was some church burning and persecution of Catholic clergy involved, but this was due to their association with fascism and hoarding of wealth from poor lower class Spaniards (which is why Protestant churches were left unmolested). There were probably some excesses involved there, but these are deficiencies to be expected as long as imperfection remains a human trait. So the "religious persecution" that did exist must be interpreted in its own context, and any consistent libertarian organizational principles would permit freedom of religion.


they allowed free love with no boundaries,while I support relationship rights (since your society has no marriage) for gays, I don't support pedaphilia.

In the case of pedophilia, it's a well-known fact that I don't endorse the rigid majority doctrines on the issue, but it should also be known that I am not "pro-pedophilia," despite the false allegations that have been thrown my way there. But since anarchism entails the elimination of hierarchical relationships, and since relationships between prepubescent children and grown adults are likely to be hierarchical, there are grounds for prohibition of adult/child sexual relations there.


Also I don't support abortion. So I wouldnt fit in the society, I would worry to lose my rights to have my own identity for what my personal beliefs are.

There's many people that "don't support abortion" without favoring criminalization of it. Abortion was indeed legalized during the Spanish Revolution and would be in any libertarian society. But your "rights" don't extend to having the "right" to impose restrictions on the rights of others, as you should know.

[chloe]

Contrary to popular misconception, socialism, not even the most leftist form of communism, is not based in equal distribution regardless of labor input. Since I am a communist, I will speak of communism, and communism involves remuneration according to needs, but also deprivation of certain collective resources in the case of those able but unwilling to work. As noted by Peter Kropotkin:



So I suspect that your concerns there are based on a specific oddity of the Spanish system, and not in any larger deficiency of anarchism or anarchist communism.



There was some church burning and persecution of Catholic clergy involved, but this was due to their association with fascism and hoarding of wealth from poor lower class Spaniards (which is why Protestant churches were left unmolested). There were probably some excesses involved there, but these are deficiencies to be expected as long as imperfection remains a human trait. So the "religious persecution" that did exist must be interpreted in its own context, and any consistent libertarian organizational principles would permit freedom of religion.



In the case of pedophilia, it's a well-known fact that I don't endorse the rigid majority doctrines on the issue, but it should also be known that I am not "pro-pedophilia," despite the false allegations that have been thrown my way there. But since anarchism entails the elimination of hierarchical relationships, and since relationships between prepubescent children and grown adults are likely to be hierarchical, there are grounds for prohibition of adult/child sexual relations there.



There's many people that "don't support abortion" without favoring criminalization of it. Abortion was indeed legalized during the Spanish Revolution and would be in any libertarian society. But your "rights" don't extend to having the "right" to impose restrictions on the rights of others, as you should know.

Agnapostate you answered my questions in a method I could understand and I appreciate that. I may have more questions later, but I am at work and don't have a lot of time today. So far, your answers seemed fair.

[chloe]

Agnapostate you answered my questions in a method I could understand and I appreciate that. I may have more questions later, but I am at work and don't have a lot of time today. So far, your answers seemed fair.

Have you heard of this?

Importance of the Psychological War

The biggest mistake of the West has been allowing itself to drift into a state of mental stagnation, apathy and inaction. In some circles, motivations of patriotism, loyalty and the traditional dream of "freedom for all men" have been lying dormant or have been paralyzed by a new kind of strange thinking. Authorities say there is an urgent need for a revolutionary change in our state of mind.

What is wrong with our "state of mind?"

First and foremost, we have been thinking the way the Communists want us to think. Our founding fathers would be alarmed to learn how confused many of our people have become over such fundamental problems as coexistence, disarmament, free trade, the United Nations, recognition Red China, and a host of related problems. Instead of maintaining a state of intellectual vigilance, we have taken Communist slogans as the major premises for too many of our conclusions. Let us go down a list of current strategy goals which the Communists and their fellow travelers are seeking to achieve. These are all part of the campaign to soften America for the final takeover. It should be kept in mind that many loyal Americans are working for these same objectives because they are not aware that these objectives are designed to destroy us.

[45] Current Communist Goals

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament by the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet Satellites.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the Germany question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the U.S. has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent office.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States...

http://www.skousen2000.com/political%20products/communist.htm

[chloe]

Obama Manchurian Candidate, Communist goals 1963, The Naked Communist, Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures, Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis....:eek:

http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/

[chloe]

Agna, I'm poor so of course your utopia country sounds good in theory, except that I don't support abortion. Also as you see at this board, there are strong opinions on marriage and race so on and so forth, I don't see how your idea would ever come together without force. Which means its not really co-operating, so what does your anarchist society decide about racism, I am sure free love covers all relationship scenarios possible, what about people who save up their coupons or money or whatever exchange they get for their work, are they able to hoard it and then cash them in so to speak to have more then others?