Anglican head Williams says anti-gays misread Bible

[LiberalNation]

Don't think anyone knows anything. It's all just speculation till you die and find out.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070417/wl_canada_nm/canada_anglicans_homosexuality_col;_ylt=AsN3vTD5yh QzBp6crUyDNlQDW7oF

PARIS (Reuters) - The spiritual leader of the world's 77 million Anglicans has said conservative Christians who cite the Bible to condemn homosexuality are misreading a key passage written by Saint Paul almost 2,000 years ago.

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, addressing theology students in Toronto, said an oft-quoted passage in Paul's Epistle to the Romans meant to warn Christians not to be self-righteous when they see others fall into sin.

His comments were an unusually open rebuff to conservative bishops, many of them from Africa, who have been citing the Bible to demand that pro-gay Anglican majorities in the United States and Canada be reined in or forced out of the Communion.

"Many current ways of reading miss the actual direction of the passage," Williams said on Monday, according to a text of his speech posted on the Anglican Church of Canada's Web site.

"Paul is making a primary point not about homosexuality but about the delusions of the supposedly law-abiding."

The worldwide Anglican Communion is near breaking point over homosexuality, with conservative clerics insisting the Bible forbids gay bishops or blessings for same-sex unions. Its U.S. branch, the Episcopal Church, named a gay bishop in 2003.

In fact, Williams also revealed on Tuesday that he had considered canceling the Anglicans' once-a-decade 2008 Lambeth Conference, which has the potential to become a flashpoint over homosexuality.

"Yes, we've already been considering that and the answer is no," he told the Anglican Church of Canada's Anglican Journal.

"We've been looking at whether the timing is right, but if we wait for the ideal time, we will wait more than just 18 months."

In the passage of Romans that Williams referred to in Monday's speech, Paul said people who forgot God's words fell into sin. "Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion," Paul wrote.

Williams said these lines were "for the majority of modern readers the most important single text in Scripture on the subject of homosexuality." But right after that passage, Paul warns readers not to condemn those who ignore God's word.

"At whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself," wrote Paul, the first-century apostle whose epistles, or letters, to early Christian communities elaborated many Church teachings.

NEITHER SIDE WINS

Williams said reinterpreting Paul's epistle as a warning against smug self-righteousness rather than homosexuality would favor neither side over the other in the bitter struggle that threatens to plunge the Anglican Communion into schism.

It would not help pro-gay liberals, he said, because Paul and his readers clearly agreed that homosexuality was "as obviously immoral as idol worship or disobedience to parents."

This reading would also upset anti-gay conservatives, who have been "up to this point happily identifying with Paul's castigation of someone else," and challenge them to ask whether they were right to judge others, he added.

"This does nothing to settle the exegetical questions fiercely debated at the moment," Williams said.

But he said a "strictly theological reading of Scripture" would not allow a Christian to denounce others and not ask whether he or she were also somehow at fault.

Williams warned of the danger of schism.

"The Communion has to face the fact that there is a division in our Church and it's getting deeper and more bitter," he said. "If the Anglican Church divides, everyone will lose."

[avatar4321]

His reading is not only incorrect, it's blatantly. To claim no one knows, is absolutely incorrect because all anyone has to do is have integrity and read the passage to know what Paul is talking about.

I suppose all of Paul's warnings against fornication is misinterpreted to? What does fornication now mean polishing ones shoes and Paul was really warniing against people who want to look good for Church... its ridiculous.

[Nuc]

This is stupid. Here's what should happen. Christians should stop harassing gays because their religion is supposed to be about love, not hate. And gays should stop trying to be Christians because Christianity is against homosexuality, therefore Christianity is not the right religion for gays to belong to. And anybody who is gay should leave the church and that includes priests. End of story. Now that I've solved that, can I be the new Pope? I don't like this Kraut.

[glockmail]

Don't think anyone knows anything. It's all just speculation till you die and find out..... I can see it now, you on one side of the pearly gates, St. Peter on the other with his hand on the release to the trap door you're standing on, asking you: "what part of 'abomination' did you fail to understand?" :poke:

[glockmail]

This is stupid. Here's what should happen. Christians should stop harassing gays because their religion is supposed to be about love, not hate. And gays should stop trying to be Christians because Christianity is against homosexuality, therefore Christianity is not the right religion for gays to belong to. And anybody who is gay should leave the church and that includes priests. End of story. Now that I've solved that, can I be the new Pope? I don't like this Kraut. If we Christians fail to expose The Truth then we are sinners as well.

[Nuc]

If we Christians fail to expose The Truth then we are sinners as well.

You've exposed the "Truth". Now stop exposing yourselves to young boys.

[glockmail]

You've exposed the "Truth". Now stop exposing yourselves to young boys. http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/eatshit.gif

[Gunny]

This is stupid. Here's what should happen. Christians should stop harassing gays because their religion is supposed to be about love, not hate. And gays should stop trying to be Christians because Christianity is against homosexuality, therefore Christianity is not the right religion for gays to belong to. And anybody who is gay should leave the church and that includes priests. End of story. Now that I've solved that, can I be the new Pope? I don't like this Kraut.

If gays were just trying to be churchmembers instead of GAY churchmembers, this issue wouldn't exist.

I don't know any heterosexual churchmembers. Just churchmembers.

[Hobbit]

I think Paul is very clear on his stance on homosexuality in his first letter to the Corinthians.


9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

He also makes it clear that you can be gay and still accept Jesus, but you're going to have to give up the gay lifestyle.

[avatar4321]

He also makes it clear that you can be gay and still accept Jesus, but you're going to have to give up the gay lifestyle.

I can't figure out why gays seem to think they should be given a different standard then everyone else. The Lord has one standard that is spelled out through the scriptures. Chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards. And if you engage in any type of sin you need to repent and have your nature changed through the Atonement of Christ.

[Gunny]

I think Paul is very clear on his stance on homosexuality in his first letter to the Corinthians.



He also makes it clear that you can be gay and still accept Jesus, but you're going to have to give up the gay lifestyle.

So would you say for the purposes of this argument that being a homosexual is worse than being a thief, adulterer, murderer, etc?

[Hobbit]

So would you say for the purposes of this argument that being a homosexual is worse than being a thief, adulterer, murderer, etc?

Nope, but what is worse is that, typically, when a church-goer is caught stealing, cheating, murdering, etc., he'll typically go into a long, teary apology about how sorry he is and why he's sorry and that he'll never do it again. In other words, the person is repentant, recognizes that what he did was wrong, and attempts to make amends, as well as attempting to never commit this sin again. On the other hand, when a church-goer is found out to be committing homosexual acts, the first response is not repentance, it is contempt. The response is not, "I'm so sorry and I'll never do this again." It is instead, "Who are you to judge my lifestyle? I can't help it. I was born this way. You're just a bigot."

Just like any other sin, part of repentance is turning away from your sinful ways.

[darin]

Nope, but what is worse is that, typically, when a church-goer is caught stealing, cheating, murdering, etc., he'll typically go into a long, teary apology about how sorry he is and why he's sorry and that he'll never do it again. In other words, the person is repentant, recognizes that what he did was wrong, and attempts to make amends, as well as attempting to never commit this sin again. On the other hand, when a church-goer is found out to be committing homosexual acts, the first response is not repentance, it is contempt. The response is not, "I'm so sorry and I'll never do this again." It is instead, "Who are you to judge my lifestyle? I can't help it. I was born this way. You're just a bigot."

Just like any other sin, part of repentance is turning away from your sinful ways.


http://www.d-mphotos.com/images/applause.gif

[-Cp]

If we Christians fail to expose The Truth then we are sinners as well.

Uh... are you suggesting that just because you've accepted Christ that you're no longer a sinner?

[Gunny]

Nope, but what is worse is that, typically, when a church-goer is caught stealing, cheating, murdering, etc., he'll typically go into a long, teary apology about how sorry he is and why he's sorry and that he'll never do it again. In other words, the person is repentant, recognizes that what he did was wrong, and attempts to make amends, as well as attempting to never commit this sin again. On the other hand, when a church-goer is found out to be committing homosexual acts, the first response is not repentance, it is contempt. The response is not, "I'm so sorry and I'll never do this again." It is instead, "Who are you to judge my lifestyle? I can't help it. I was born this way. You're just a bigot."

Just like any other sin, part of repentance is turning away from your sinful ways.

But no matter how hard we try, we cannot fully turn from our sinful ways.

We, as humans, can judge homosexuals as humans. They are abnormal. You've been around long enough to know where I stand on the issue.

I draw the line however at rendering God's judgement for Him. Whether or not a homosexual will be forgiven is not for us to say.

Clearly, Paul presumes much and contradicts Christ if he preaches intolerance in his letter.

[darin]

But no matter how hard we try, we cannot fully turn from our sinful ways.

Not really true. When we accept Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit - who helps us suppress our desire to sin. While we're still human, and like ALL humans have a sinful NATURE, we do not sin 24/7. Sin is a specific uncontrolled desire or heart condition which separates us from God. I am FULLY turned from my sinful 'ways', yet still 'sin' insomuch as my human/fleshly desires still flare up and I cultivate lust, from time to time, or pride, etc.



We, as humans, can judge homosexuals as humans. They are abnormal. You've been around long enough to know where I stand on the issue.

I draw the line however at rendering God's judgement for Him. Whether or not a homosexual will be forgiven is not for us to say.

Clearly, Paul presumes much and contradicts Christ if he preaches intolerance in his letter.


Thankfully, God has given us his Judgment of the un-repentant sinner. That judgement is (Spiritual) death, and eternal separation from Him. It's quite appropriate to say a homosexual will not enter Heaven because by definition, a homosexual is an un-repentant sinner.

[Gunny]

Not really true. When we accept Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit - who helps us suppress our desire to sin. While we're still human, and like ALL humans have a sinful NATURE, we do not sin 24/7. Sin is a specific uncontrolled desire or heart condition which separates us from God. I am FULLY turned from my sinful 'ways', yet still 'sin' insomuch as my human/fleshly desires still flare up and I cultivate lust, from time to time, or pride, etc.




Thankfully, God has given us his Judgment of the un-repentant sinner. That judgement is (Spiritual) death, and eternal separation from Him. It's quite appropriate to say a homosexual will not enter Heaven because by definition, a homosexual is an un-repentant sinner.

I will get back to you on this.

[Hobbit]

But no matter how hard we try, we cannot fully turn from our sinful ways.

We, as humans, can judge homosexuals as humans. They are abnormal. You've been around long enough to know where I stand on the issue.

I draw the line however at rendering God's judgement for Him. Whether or not a homosexual will be forgiven is not for us to say.

Clearly, Paul presumes much and contradicts Christ if he preaches intolerance in his letter.

Correct, and I am not attempting to judge those that are homosexual. They will be judged by God. However, God has given us the Bible, along with a few other ways to determine right from wrong, and it is our duty as disciples to confront those living in sin with the truth. It is typically only considered proper to confront somebody within the church, as scripture won't work on somebody who doesn't believe in scripture, but that means that those who wish to both be in the church and live a gay lifestyle should be confronted in a caring way.

In fact, the method of confrontation is listed in another of Paul's letters (which one escapes me). You start by doing a one-on-one discussionth the person. If they repeatedly defend their ways or refuse to change them, find out if you're alone in your stance (if you are, you may be wrong). If you're not alone, get together some like-minded people and confront as a group. If this, too, doesn't work, bring the behavior to the attention of the pastor of the church. Finally, if that doesn't work, the person will probably have left the church, but should, in any case, be treated as any other human lost in sin (i.e. invited to church, befriended, talked to, etc.). Under no circumstances should anybody be completely shunned.

[glockmail]

Nope, but what is worse is that, typically, when a church-goer is caught stealing, cheating, murdering, etc., he'll typically go into a long, teary apology about how sorry he is and why he's sorry and that he'll never do it again. In other words, the person is repentant, recognizes that what he did was wrong, and attempts to make amends, as well as attempting to never commit this sin again. On the other hand, when a church-goer is found out to be committing homosexual acts, the first response is not repentance, it is contempt. The response is not, "I'm so sorry and I'll never do this again." It is instead, "Who are you to judge my lifestyle? I can't help it. I was born this way. You're just a bigot."

Just like any other sin, part of repentance is turning away from your sinful ways.

Based soley on your explanation, it seems that your answer should have been "yes".

[glockmail]

Uh... are you suggesting that just because you've accepted Christ that you're no longer a sinner? No.

[Hobbit]

Based soley on your explanation, it seems that your answer should have been "yes".

Not really. The question was if being a homosexual is worse, which it is not. However, the attitude that typically accompanies it is an additional wrong. It is entirely possible for someone to be caught engaging in homosexual acts, then break down and apologize, repent, and attempt to turn away from that sin. It's just that, thanks to society, such a thing is rare.

Edit: It's certainly no worse than teenage whores who, when confront with the fact that they're whores, say something like, "It's my body. What business is it of yours what I do with it?"

[avatar4321]

Not really. The question was if being a homosexual is worse, which it is not. However, the attitude that typically accompanies it is an additional wrong. It is entirely possible for someone to be caught engaging in homosexual acts, then break down and apologize, repent, and attempt to turn away from that sin. It's just that, thanks to society, such a thing is rare.

Edit: It's certainly no worse than teenage whores who, when confront with the fact that they're whores, say something like, "It's my body. What business is it of yours what I do with it?"

It's not their body though. It was paid for with a price so severe that Christ Himself didn't want to go through with it, but did so anyway because He loves us.

[KarlMarx]

I looked up the Strong’s Lexicon/Concordance for 1 Corinthians 6:9

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=6&verse=9&version=KJV#9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=6&verse=9&version=KJV#9)

I did some research into the words “malakoi” using a Greek to English Bible translation

The words of contention are “malakos” and “arsenokoites”


MALAKOS

According to Strong’s Concordance, the definitions for these words are as follows

1) soft, soft to the touch
2) metaph. in a bad sense
a) effeminate
1) of a catamite
2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
4) of a male prostitute

According to Thayer’s Lexicon, the definition is

“Like the Latin “mollis”, metap and in a bad sense: effeminate, of a catamite, a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness”

ARSENOKITES:

Strong’s concordance
one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual

Thayer’s Lexicon
One who lies with a male as a female, a sodomite



I also used the Strong’s Concordance to look up Leviticus 18:22.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Lev&chapter=18&verse=22&version=KJV#22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Lev&chapter=18&verse=22&version=KJV#22)


The Hebrew goes something like this

Shakab zakar mishkab ishsah tow ebah

Each word translates (again using Strong’s Concordance)
Shakab = (to lie down in a sexual sense)
Zakar = (male)
Mishkab = (lying down as in a sexual sense)
Ishah = (womankind)
Tow ebah = (abomination)


We can approach this differently, by going to another source. Keep in mind that St. Paul was a Jew living in the first century. We also have a work written by another first century Jew, named Josephus.

Josephus lived shortly after St. Paul and wrote a series of histories. One concerned the Jewish History. In it, he describes the account of the overthrow of Sodom (Antiquities of the Jews - Book I, Chapter 11)

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/josephus/ant-1.htm (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/josephus/ant-1.htm)


“1. ABOUT this time the Sodomites grew proud, …. they hated strangers, and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices. God was therefore much displeased at them, and determined to punish them for their pride, and to overthrow their city, and to lay waste their country, until there should neither plant nor fruit grow out of it.”

Josephus does not detail what the Sodomitical practices were, but in a later passage from the same chapter, we get a clue:

“…Now when the Sodomites saw the young men to be of beautiful countenances, and this to an extraordinary degree, and that they took up their lodgings with Lot, they resolved themselves to enjoy these beautiful boys by force and violence; and when Lot exhorted them to sobriety, and not to offer any thing immodest to the strangers, but to have regard to their lodging in his house; and promised that if their inclinations could not be governed, he would expose his daughters to their lust, instead of these strangers; neither thus were they made ashamed.”

I think this gives us a very good indication that Paul, like Josephus, regarded the practice of homosexuality to be a sin.

Certainly, the Gospels do not record Jesus’ teachings on homosexuality, but with St. Paul, we get a good idea of where Christ’s teachings were headed in this area,that is, that homosexuality is not acceptable in the Christian faith.

There are those who contend that, because Jesus' teachings on the subject of homosexuality appear no where in the Gospel, that Christians, especially St. Paul's disciples, added the prohibition against homosexuality to His teachings.

I don't agree with that contention and here's why.

In Christ's Sermon of the Mount, especially Matthew 5:27-32 Christ teaches the following:

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old,‘You shall not commit adultery.
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
31Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’
32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

It seems his teachings regarding divorce and adultery go above and beyond the Law of Moses. With this in mind, I have to believe that Christ taught homosexuality was a sin because of His teachings on other areas of sexual behavior.

[Missileman]

It's not their body though.

That sounds awfully "Jim Jones-ish" or even Islamafascist. Do all Christians think this?

[Gunny]

Not really true. When we accept Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit - who helps us suppress our desire to sin. While we're still human, and like ALL humans have a sinful NATURE, we do not sin 24/7. Sin is a specific uncontrolled desire or heart condition which separates us from God. I am FULLY turned from my sinful 'ways', yet still 'sin' insomuch as my human/fleshly desires still flare up and I cultivate lust, from time to time, or pride, etc.




Thankfully, God has given us his Judgment of the un-repentant sinner. That judgement is (Spiritual) death, and eternal separation from Him. It's quite appropriate to say a homosexual will not enter Heaven because by definition, a homosexual is an un-repentant sinner.

You have a good argument. However, IMO, one can be repentent, still sin through the weakness of the flesh, and STILL be saved. I guess it all depends on how you choose to interpret the Bible.

Christ intones us to be tolerant and forgiving of everyone, including our enemies. Looks good on paper, much more difficult in practice.

I will also point out that while the Bible contains God's law, it does NOT contain his final judgement on all things. His actual final judgement is yet to come.

And while I have no problem with my faith, nor the intent of the Bible, it was STILL written by men, not God himself. As we all know, one word can change the entire meaning of a sentence. We have certain posters here who try to use itdishonestly to their advantage every day.;)

[5stringJeff]

That sounds awfully "Jim Jones-ish" or even Islamafascist. Do all Christians think this?

It's in the Bible, so all Bible-believing Christians do believe it:
1 Corinthians 6:19-20: "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."

[Hobbit]

That sounds awfully "Jim Jones-ish" or even Islamafascist. Do all Christians think this?

It's hard to understand if you don't have the full context. Everything we have is really God's, and while you have free will to do what you will with it, it is your responsibility to take what God has given you and turn it into something great. God has given you a body to do with what you will, but throwing it away on sex and drugs and such is a waste.

[eighballsidepocket]

It's a long one folks, but please try to read it. It's not a copy paste job, but my own thoughts, except for some scripture quotes.Sincerely, Eightballsidepocket

The Apostle Paul clarifies this debate in the book of Romans chapter 1 and 7. Chapter 1 clearly makes specific that homosexuality is sinful both of males and females who participate in this unnatural act. Chapter 7, clearly explains that though a Christian is "saved", and is no longer at enmity with God, he/she still have to deal with the power of sin, that is a tempting, evil force, having access to tempt the Christian via their unredeemed body of flesh.

Though the Christian has received a new ressurrected spirit/nature via the work of God, through Christ's death/burial/ressurrection (Galatians 2:20 & Romans Chapter 6), Paul emphatically states in Romans chapter 7 that we have as Christians a continued battle with sin through the flesh. Though we have this new nature, and not the fallen nature before salvation, we do have the old "programming" in our brains, from before conversion. That must be purged or replaced with new programming that better-suits/conforms to our new identity/nature (Romans chapter 12, verse 2).

Now before I copy paste a couple of the above referred bible verses to support my comments, I want to briefly comment on homosexuality as it's being analyzed in this thread.

Homosexuality is sin, as stealing, murder, coveting, etc.. is. Yet, Christians, yes Christians can commit sin. John the Apostle in one of his Epistles clearly states that if a Christian claims to be without sin, he/she is a liar.

The difference here is that when a Christian received this new uncondemned, justified, nature from God, he/she still can be tempted by sin if he/she so allows or gives-in to it.

In the pre-salvation state, he/she had no choice, as God and even Jesus referred to all who weren't saved as children of the devil. Now this may sound rash and harsh, but Jesus was saying that there is no in-between state of standing in God's eyes as far as humanity is concerned. You're either in the "camp" of the "saved" and belong to God through Jesus's life, or you stand across a vast metaphorically canyon in the camp of those who will be judged and cut-off from God in the end.

Paul describes a triune make-up or model of man...i.e. body, soul, and spirit. The body is the actual physical, fleshly earth-suit so-to-speak that we will shed some day for a new body in heaven. The "body" is also the physical contact with this earthly life The soul comprises mind, emotions/feelings/feeler and will/chooser, and the spirit is the actual "spark" or life giving source of man that separates him from the inorganic in a sense. The spirit was intended to be the "go-between" with God and man, but from the time of the "fall" man's spirit has been dead to God and alive to sin and the world as it's means of seeking identity.

Of these three entities, the old, unredeemable, sin accessible, body will not hitch a ride to heaven with the Christian. A new body thats impervious to the fiery missles of sin/temptation will be the replacement upon our future ressurrection with Christ. (I will not at this time get into whether I'm pre, mid, or post tribulationist in my "take" on this matter.).

In a sense, our bodies as Christians are still an access point, or gate to allow the power of sin or temptation to evil to have access, via the "eye gate", "ear gate", feeler/touch gate, and other gates, as even a Christian who is physically blind and deaf can still be tempted to sin via the bodily gates. If you want to read a great metaphorical explanation that somehow helps many folks, "Pilgrim's Progress" by John Bunyon, is an excellent reading/book.
*******
So, yes we have a new nature.........yet, yes, us Christians do sin, but we have this new nature that is working in concert with the God's indwelling Holy Spirit to convict us of when we do sin, or consider sinning. Yet we still struggle, because outwardly via our unredeemed body, sin still "pounds" away via the work of fallen world, spiritual(demonic) beings, and Satan himself, to convince us that we aren't saved, that there is no God, no salvation, no Jesus, no hope...etc. Satan's main work is to make us Christians ineffectual, so that the Great Commission to go out into all the world and proclaim the good news of Jesus is thwarted. In one short sentence, the enemy does not want God/Jesus Glorified. He/Satan desires the undeserved glory from mankind.

Satan has no other access, but via this body and then onward to our mind, emotions/feelings. Now we are back to that mind. The human mind is a neutral, non-evil organ that's not unlike a hard drive. Our feelings or emotions are also a beautiful enhancement of our species to make our life experiences very special too. Emotions/feelings can either enhance or detract from the truth. Feelings are a secondary reliance, as they can give us false signals of reality. Satan loves to work on us via the feeler. If he can makes us "feel" unsaved or "feel" like losers, he's done his job. He's made us ineffectual. So we must fight "feelings" or "emotions" that contradict what God had emphatically told us is the truth about us as Christians. I.E. We must hold fact to the Word, and not our fluctuating, up and down feelings that sometimes confirm and often deny what is the reality of our true identity. For some folks, it's never been a problem, for other Christians, who have lived a very feelings oriented life before salvation, they will have to fight back and learn to lean on the objective and not so much the subjective in their interpretation of life's realities.

"Garbage in, garbage out.". Now that we have this new nature that isn't comforble with sin anymore, this neutral entity called our mind, must be purged of it's old programming that was acquired before our salvation and receiving God's Holy Spirit, and have new, correct, programming replace the old. That's where God's word, the scriptures or the Truth comes into play. That's why Paul says in Romans 12:2 that the renewing of our minds is essential to living a victorious Christian life. If the Christian doesn't take seriously the process of reading scripture to learn about his/her's new identity in Christ, he/she will not be able to thwart, or resist the temptations of the devil and the power of sin via the only access, the unredeemed body, and it's gates. We metaphorically need strong, smart gate keepers, and without understanding our new justified/righteous standing given to us via the grace of God through Jesus's life, we will live a most miserable life as a Christian. In fact our lives will be undiscernible from those that our lost, or not saved. The war within our soul between the power of sin and the suppressed Holy Spirit will create a most unfortunate being, and a totally ineffectual servant or ambassador of God, as we are supposed to become in our Christian maturing process.

So here comes the scripture:
Romans chapter 1 : 21-27, New American bible translation:

21For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22(AP)Professing to be wise, they became fools,

23and (AQ)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures.

24Therefore (AR)God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be (AS)dishonored among them.

25For they exchanged the truth of God for a (AT)lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, (AU)who is blessed forever. Amen.

26For this reason (AV)God gave them over to (AW)degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,

27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (AX)men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

If that isn't explicit about homosexuality being one of many sins in God's eyes, then I'm a big baffoon and need some help interpretting it the right way.
*****
Romans chapter 7:14-25....This is the struggle with sin, of a godly man named Paul, whom we all know of.

14For we know that the Law is (Z)spiritual, but I am (AA)of flesh, (AB)sold (AC)into bondage to sin.
15For what I am doing, (AD)I do not understand; for I am not practicing (AE)what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with (AF)the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

17So now, (AG)no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my (AH)flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

19For (AI)the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (AJ)I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21I find then (AK)the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in (AL)the inner man, ( in other words, his redeemed, new nature doesn't want to sin, as it is joined with God's Holy Spirit.).

23but I see (AM)a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the (AN)law of my mind and making me a prisoner of (AO)the law of sin which is in my members.
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (AP)the body of this (AQ)death?

25(AR)Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (AS)the law of sin.

So you see here folks, the Christian is saved, yet has a war on his/her's hand to "choose" between sin and righteousness.

This saved individual isn't evil, but is saved, yet they struggle. This is why the "identity" of the individual means everything. If we think we are "pigs" we will wallow in the mud and root for food and sustenance that way throughout our lives. If we "think" we are children of the King, and royal ambassadors for Him, then our minds are agreeing with the actual true nature that God has given us, and there will be inner peace, and no struggle.

As Paul explained, all of Christians will struggle with the flesh. As we seek to renew our minds with God's truths, we will still have the rearing-up of the old programming that wants to find solace, and meaning in the world, and it's enticements. Satan and sin will always be waiting and watching for a crack in the door or an open window. This is why we must gird ourselves with the spiritual armour of God. We must fill our minds with God's truth.

Now for the unsaved, they can read God's word all their lives and not be saved........sadly, as scripture, or God's word is understood via the work of God's Spirit working in conjunction with the Christians new nature/spirit.

This is why folks can go to church for years and then depart earthly life, and someday, Jesus will frightfully say, "I don't know you!". It isn't by charitable deeds, and loving works that we are Christians. It is by God's hand that we become His. It is via repentance and a contrite, humbled heart that we approach God, and leave all our excuses behind and accept the bold fact that we have nothing of value to offer God, but our naked selves, in a very pitiful state. We are at His mercy as we are a fallen race. It is Jesus who is the propitiation (payment) for our sinful natures that we were born with. It is not God's fault that we sin, or fall into homsexuality, adultry or whatever. We are not victims, we are perpetrators. We are at enmity with God, and Jesus was offered on the cross to end this enmity between us and God. The only thing holding us back is "us". Our pride, which comes in the form of knowledge, intellect, achievements, job status, etc....., all false securities. It is all wood, hay and stubble to God, who created us and everything anyway.
*****
Yes, a person can be saved and still be tempted to fall into homosexuality.........Paul had his thorn in the flesh that kept him very humble.......and folks that have been in the throws of homosexuality for most of their lives and become Christians don't necessarily quit having to struggle with the temptation of homosexuality. In fact it may "dog" them their entire lives after being saved, yet they have the Word of God, their wills, and the renewing of their minds to thwart the lie of homosexuality as being, "ok", and acceptable behaviour before their God.

I'm a worry-wart of a Christian. That's a sin in God's eyes. I'm supposed to be anxious for nothing, but in everything give thanks to God..........Phillipians 4:6-7, yet in so many ways, worry didn't cease when I was saved. I will say that this besetting sin , keeps me in a very humble state, and really smashes pride down to a small "p", as I see how vunerable I am to temptation without relying on God and the Holy Spirit to carry me along each day. I am tempted in many other areas too. Some are very embarrassing. Yet, I can stand tall in the strength of God, not my strength. He is my shield and armour, not "naked" me.

I've personally met and known people that were homosexuals, and were saved, yet still had to fight the temptation, as the old programming was still being purged from their minds via the Word of God( They buried themselves in scripture to learn about their new nature, and identity.). Some have actually married and carry on heterosexual lives, with less and less the temptations of homosexuality rear up. Yet, those temptations keep their lives, in "check" and remind them that they can't fight it on their own.

As Paul said........"When I am weak, He/God is strong".
*******

[gabosaurus]

How about "I am the God of ALL people"?
That sums it up pretty well.

[darin]

How about "I am the God of ALL people"?
That sums it up pretty well.

Except nobody but you would know what you're talkin' about.

[gabosaurus]

Only people with intelligence and snap will know what I am talking about.
which obviously disqualifies many ConReps on this board.

[darin]

Only people with intelligence and snap will know what I am talking about.
which obviously disqualifies many ConReps on this board.


Nobody thinks you are smart or cool or funny for being a dickhead.

[gabosaurus]

Some of us are dickheads. Others are the entire dick.
Not that they ever get to use it... :laugh2:

[eighballsidepocket]

Only people with intelligence and snap will know what I am talking about.
which obviously disqualifies many ConReps on this board.

"I am God of all the people" is self explanatory. God is indeed sovereign over all His Creation. To be God over his people is not the same as saying that all His people acknowledge Him as their God......or the authority or Lordship of their lives. There is the big divide.

He is God over those that mock Him, refuse to acknowledge His existence, those that sin blatantly before Him without conscious regret.....etc... Free-will is the charmer and the expression of His grace to all. It allows God to receive the willing, not the "forced" into His Kingdom. This is not unlike raising two children, and asking both to do a chore. One joyfully obliges, the other does it out of fear of punishment, resentment, and the self-centered desire to do otherwise. Which one really sees the parent as a benevolent, positive authority for their life and willingly obeys?

Remember, at the end of time.....all knees will bow, even the unwilling.........as they finally see Him in the "big reality" of His second coming. He came 2,000 years ago to seek and save, the next time it's to judge.

God is patient..........very patient...........,but patient means that there is an end to patience in the future. It will not be foretold......it will be a joyful surprise to some and to others not-so, and to others, an almost expected thing.........some will have regrets, others will stand with open arms of joy and relief. No amount of anguish of tears, repentance, or deep regret will make a difference. The time of merciful patience will have ended. Man will be out of excuses, yet some will still shake an angry fist in defiance.

God allows the rain to fall on the crops of the evil man as well as the righteous man. The evil man can come around and finally realize that he isn't Lord and Master of his life, and cross that chasm that separates man from God. Humility, and Pride are like oil and water, they can't exist in the same container..........one must go that the other will reign.

Man fears that acknowledging God's sovereignty will be the loss of personal freedom, fun, recreation, free thought, happiness, intellectual pursuit, and desires to what one wants to do in life. Oh how the enemy of man's soul has brainwashed lost man with that lie.

Man is even brainwashed to the extent by the enemy of his soul to think that the enemy is a myth.
.........
Interpretting sovereignty of God over all, as meaning He is all inclusive and non-descrimitive is to be in agreement with the fuzzy logic that some noteable folks of the past have raised such as; "It's all what you believe the definition of sexual relations is?" God has no gray areas when it comes to what is right and wrong. Only man has redefined and created the gray area to assuage his guilt.
******
God is God of the lost and the saved or found..........Its just that the latter group realize it, and the first group denies it, evades it, or runs from it.
********

[gabosaurus]

Excellent points, eightball. But remember, Jesus ministered to those who were considered unclean and outcast at that time. Jesus preached love, not hatred.
The Bible, by its very nature, is open to interpretation.

[eighballsidepocket]

Excellent points, eightball. But remember, Jesus ministered to those who were considered unclean and outcast at that time. Jesus preached love, not hatred.
The Bible, by its very nature, is open to interpretation.

Can't agree with you more!

******
In fact one of my favorite accounts of Jesus's was when He said He came for the "sick" not the "well".

That statement went over most of the folks heads back then and probably does nowadays too.

"Sick" meant all of us.........In fact the Pharisees, and the very "religious" who believed that living by the "law" was the way to pleasing and appeasing God, were the sickest. We were all sick in "spirit". We all were alienated from God, or at enmity with Him. Some realized it, other's refused it. Some thought pridefully thought they had it through religiosity, others shrunk away in guilt and shame. All were in the same boat.

When Jesus spotted that man Zacheus up in the tree who was trying to get a better view of the Teacher, Jesus made a point of calling out to Zacheus and telling him that He wanted to dine with him at his house.

Zacheus was despised by the Jewish Pharisees and scribes of the time. He was a tax collector, and considered a religious as well as national turncoat. Zacheus also was most likely corrupt in his tax collecting too, for the Romans government.

The interesting response of Zacheus at being asked to host a dinner at his house for Jesus, was the immediate turn to repentance, and an contrite heart and spirit. In fact Zacheus announced upon that dinner visit by Jesus that he would return monetarily all he had taken illegally, and even add more back to the people! That was a changed man!

It's funny, but as you mentioned in your post......the ones that were the grossest of sinners in the eyes of the religious and pious of the day, were the ones that seemed to respont to Jesus in the greatest numbers. It took little convincing for them to admit that before God, they were unworthy, as they fell on their collective faces before Jesus, and called out for mercy, and Jesus had pity upon them and they were saved.......or prepped for salvation that would come at Pentacost.

So great gobs of theological intellect, and great gobs of general intelligence, and charismatic tallents in life, don't insure one's place in God's kingdom.

Only the broken, contrite, repentant heart will enter God's Kingdom, and that will be through Jesus's Crucified, buried, and ressurrected life, and no others. Every man and woman must come to face the "death" of self at the cross, and enthrone Jesus at the helm of their souls.

Every human being on earth is being "worked-on" by God second by second, minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day, and year by year, in ways that are intended to convince that individual that they need to relinquish the lordship of their lives from themselves and give it to the One that knows them inside and out, atom for atom, molecule for molecule, who knitted them in their mother's womb......etc.

To say that we all need or needed God's perverbial 2X4 across the head to come to our senses is not too far off.:poke:

Some of will go to our graves with lumps all over our craniums:dance: , others will only need a couple lumps to decide that they are weak and He is the wise, loving strong-one all along.

[glockmail]

....
The Bible, by its very nature, is open to interpretation. To a relatively narrow degree. On the thread subject, the Bible states that homosexuality is an abomination. Not a lot of wiggle room there.

[avatar4321]

Only people with intelligence and snap will know what I am talking about.
which obviously disqualifies many ConReps on this board.

What the heck is snap?

[avatar4321]

Excellent points, eightball. But remember, Jesus ministered to those who were considered unclean and outcast at that time. Jesus preached love, not hatred.
The Bible, by its very nature, is open to interpretation.

No one is preaching hate. We are just sick and tired of unjustified hypocrisy and false doctrine being mistaught from the scriptures.

[gabosaurus]

No one is preaching hate. We are just sick and tired of unjustified hypocrisy and false doctrine being mistaught from the scriptures.

What gives you the divine right to singularly interpret the scriptures? God speaks to all of us, not merely to those who seek to twist His word into something that espouses hatred and mistrust.

[darin]

What gives you the divine right to singularly interpret the scriptures? God speaks to all of us, not merely to those who seek to twist His word into something that espouses hatred and mistrust.

He didn't interpret - he read what was there and applied Elementary-school-levels of Comprehension. (shrug).

What espouses hatred and mistrust is people taking God's word, shitting up on it, and then proclaiming themselves somehow special, or blessed of God as being THE single voice of Him. See: Williams-from-this-thread.

[eighballsidepocket]

What gives you the divine right to singularly interpret the scriptures? God speaks to all of us, not merely to those who seek to twist His word into something that espouses hatred and mistrust.

Scripture twisting is the very act of denying what the bible says clearly. As I shared with you earlier, homosexuality is clearly defined in the category of sin, as is adultry, stealing, lieing, etc.. Romans Chapter one doesn't shroud what it's saying.

Now the Anglican church and many folks are twisting the biblical scripture, to "justfify" their resistance or stubborniess to accept culpability for their decisions to live in "sin" or commit "sin".

Just because this is a mainstream church doesn't give them any better credentials than anyone else.

99 and 99/100's of the bible scripture is not metaphorical or allegory, but is straight-on objective information, that doesn't need a Priest, or Bishop to interpret for the common man with an open, unbiased mind.

The bible sheds its truth on all the lies that we accept as gospel, and truth is like a light, it exposes darkness so that we can see what's hidden in the shadows.

Jesus was not unlike a light in the darkness, as His very life and words exposed man's enmity to God's holines and standards or righteousness.

As I mentioned before. Jesus said we all needed a doctor back 2,000 years ago, and it hasn't changed now. We are all in need of spirtual surgery/healing. Some will accept their condition of need, and others will try to avoid the exposing truth/light of God's holiness.

It's very simple. No smoke and mirrors in the bible. Man is the one that does the smoke and mirrors act to avoid accountability before his Creator.
*****
Granted, I agree that there are myriads of bible/scripture twisters in this world, but it isn't all coming from the church. The Anglican church example at the beginning of this thread is an example of the liberal influence in the church that is "watering-down" the true gospel and is unexcuseable.

Even folks who are avowed homosexuals who are pastoring some mainline churches are totally violating and going against God's obvious commands/instructions within scripture.... People don't want to lump homosexuality in there with stealing, lieing, adultry....etc.. but the scripture is totally straight-forward, and not "fuzzy' on this subject.

[glockmail]

What the heck is snap? "snap it" means "whack off". :dunno:

[Nienna]

What the heck is snap?

Snap is a kind of in-your-face-I'm-all-that attitude. Like when you snap your fingers at someone.