nukeman vs gabby

[Nukeman]

Actually this is going to be (hopefully) a discussion between two people.

If you are truly not going to post flippant answers and hit and run posts.

Here is my problem with government run health care and why I think it's a bad idea for them to get anymore involved.

1. Medicare which they run, has a reimbursement rate of .22 cents on the dollar currently. Obama has stated that he wants to lower reimbursement even more.
A. That will cause price increases for everyone else.
b. reduction in services ----that's rationing for those paying attention
c. layoffs for nurses and other staff.

This is like buying gas and only paying a dollar a gallon and then saying look gas costs less. Nope it doesn't it's just stealing from them and pushing the cost onto someone else.

2. VA hospitals, again, which the gov. run costs them billions of dollars every year. The gov. could save billions by closing these hospitals and giving the veterans a card which they could use ANYWHERE and receive the SAME care they now receive.

3. WHY should I give the gov. MORE control over MY health care, which I like, when they are doing such an abysmal job at running Medicare and the VA's.

Those are my questions to you. NO news sources that you don't like, no talking points from conservatives, just 20 years of dealing with the gov. and their bureaucratic mess.

[gabosaurus]

1. I don't know much about Medicare. I admit this. I am 25 years old, so I haven't thought much about it.

2. I totally agree with you on this. Trouble is, this is a political hot button that both sides avoid. A few Calif. legislators tried approaching this topic a few years back and were accused of "hating the military." Go figure.

3. Health care is currently in an abysmal state. Health care companies are making decisions that doctors should make. Like deciding which treatments are "feasible" and how long patients should remain in hospitals.
Hospitals routinely overcharge on procedures to get more money from health care companies. Health care companies jack up prices to compensate.

I want the health care system overhauled because it is not working.
Have you seen the health care options available to educators? It's horrible. Because apparently educators are "high risk." And school systems can't afford any better.
Not everyone works for a Fortune 500 company that offers great benefits. And you can't always choose employment due to benefits.

Last time my sister got sick, she went to the ER because it was late. It was something that could have been treated, but they had to admit her. Because her health care includes hospitalization, but not ER.

I want health care that returns medical decisions to medical professionals. I want to choose my doctors, not have my choice dictated by a health care agency. If a doctor recommends a procedure, I don't want to have to wait and see if some health care person deems it necessary.

If you got laid off and have to work some low wage job to support your family, who pays if you get sick or injured? Most places like that don't offer health care.
If you are raising a family, and you don't have a good job, you can't afford private health care. It's a racket and few can afford it.

I want health care reform I don't care if it is Obama's plan, a Republican plan or bipartisan plan. There are way too many people at risk.

[Silver]

1. I don't know much about Medicare. I admit this. I am 25 years old, so I haven't thought much about it.

2. I totally agree with you on this. Trouble is, this is a political hot button that both sides avoid. A few Calif. legislators tried approaching this topic a few years back and were accused of "hating the military." Go figure.

3. Health care is currently in an abysmal state. Health care companies are making decisions that doctors should make. Like deciding which treatments are "feasible" and how long patients should remain in hospitals.
Hospitals routinely overcharge on procedures to get more money from health care companies. Health care companies jack up prices to compensate.

I want the health care system overhauled because it is not working.
Have you seen the health care options available to educators? It's horrible. Because apparently educators are "high risk." And school systems can't afford any better.
Not everyone works for a Fortune 500 company that offers great benefits. And you can't always choose employment due to benefits.

Last time my sister got sick, she went to the ER because it was late. It was something that could have been treated, but they had to admit her. Because her health care includes hospitalization, but not ER.

I don't know the level of benefits on Calif....but in the east...educators, that is teachers have the very top of the line benefits, pay little to nothing for them, that is, taxpayers pay for their insurance ... teachers and state workers in general have the best of the best and when they retire, they will get these perks for the rest of their lives, at least the state retirees will....and maybe your sis now knows not to go to the ER if their is no true emergency....most carriers will not cover you if you go to the er and are not admitted....or will cover only a portion of the cost..

I want health care that returns medical decisions to medical professionals. I want to choose my doctors, not have my choice dictated by a health care agency. If a doctor recommends a procedure, I don't want to have to wait and see if some health care person deems it necessary.

If you got laid off and have to work some low wage job to support your family, who pays if you get sick or injured? Most places like that don't offer health care.
If you are raising a family, and you don't have a good job, you can't afford private health care. It's a racket and few can afford it.

I want health care reform I don't care if it is Obama's plan, a Republican plan or bipartisan plan. There are way too many people at risk.
.

[Nukeman]

I will post a full reply later today! I don't want you thinking I ditched you Gabby, I have a pretty full case load today!!!

[gabosaurus]

I will post a full reply later today! I don't want you thinking I ditched you Gabby, I have a pretty full case load today!!!

No problemo. Looking forward to your reply.


maybe your sis now knows not to go to the ER if their is no true emergency....most carriers will not cover you if you go to the er and are not admitted....or will cover only a portion of the cost..

So when someone with a known medical condition gets sick late at night, you expect them to just sit there and hope they don't die?
I didn't say it wasn't a serious emergency. Because you never know. The doctors treated it as an emergency.
Why does health care cover doctor visits, but not ER visits? Because they are money-hungry idiots.

[Nukeman]

1. I don't know much about Medicare. I admit this. I am 25 years old, so I haven't thought much about it.

It really is something you might want to take a long hard look at. You could start by researching the CMS. Just google it, also look at how the government has continued to slash reimbursement of services. I love how they vilify the physicians but fail to mention they limit the amount one can make on ANY procedure. Obama talks about a surgeon receiving 50,000 dollars for removing a diabetic foot, actually they receive about 1,500 and that includes the follow up care regardless of how long that is. It falls under what they call a Diagnosis-related group (DRG). Regardless of what happens to a Medicare/Medicaid patient in the hospital the FIRST DRG they are admitted under is the ONLY one they will pay.... I would like to point out that PRIVATE insurance FOLLOWS the guidelines established by CMS so when reimbursement drops from the fed it also drops from private. Most health care facilities have increased their workforce by 40% in the last 30 years just to deal with regulatory issues... Now that is something to think about...


2. I totally agree with you on this. Trouble is, this is a political hot button that both sides avoid. A few Calif. legislators tried approaching this topic a few years back and were accused of "hating the military." Go figure.
VA's should be eliminated and the government should be a CASH paying customer for ALL VETS. Did you know that you do NOT need a US medical license to work in the VA system. Did you also know that the VA operates independently of ALL overseeing agencies that look at EVERY other health care facility that include JACHO, State board of health, EPA, NRC, OSHA. So all these entities that the govt has established to "protect" you and me in private settings they have conveniently exempted themselves... This is what they would do if they ran ALL of the health care....


3. Health care is currently in an abysmal state. Health care companies are making decisions that doctors should make. Like deciding which treatments are "feasible" and how long patients should remain in hospitals.
Hospitals routinely overcharge on procedures to get more money from health care companies. Health care companies jack up prices to compensate.
Do you honestly believe the govt would do better at this especially when we get to end of the year and money is tight. This is exactly the type of problems they have in socialized medicine. It is called rationing. I guarantee it will a hundred times worse with the govt in charge. Hospitals may "charge" more but the reimbursement is still pennies on the dollar for billable goods. Most people forget that the fees for hospital stays include the utilities (electricity, water, phone, computer services, backup systems for ALL), taxes, upkeep, routine maintenance, equipment replacement. A service agreement on ONE piece of x-ray equipment is over 30,000 dollars ANNUALLY, and that is for EACH piece of equipment used. And lest we forget the all might legal defense team that needs to be kept on retainer in case someone gets hurt from said equipment or a diagnosis is missed.....


I want the health care system overhauled because it is not working.
Have you seen the health care options available to educators? It's horrible. Because apparently educators are "high risk." And school systems can't afford any better.
Not everyone works for a Fortune 500 company that offers great benefits. And you can't always choose employment due to benefits.This is all true. I have worked in health care for 20 years and I will tell you GM has much better benefits than we do. I understand why teachers are considered high risk, schools are one giant petri dish of infection.

The point is "health care" doesn't need to be overhauled the insurance payment plans and tort reform are the area's that need the most reform. IF and I say IF everyone payed what a test is WORTH (not what we would like to be payed but what we need to perform the tests and make a modest 5% profit to maintain up to date equipment) Than you would actually see a reduction of 50-60% in actually cost.. Since insurance companies and the fed negotiate (term used VERY loosely) and pay pennies on the dollar the prices come up..

I used this analogy in my first post but it is very appropriate...

This is like buying gas and only paying a dollar a gallon and then saying look gas costs less. Nope it doesn't it's just stealing from them and pushing the cost onto someone else.



Last time my sister got sick, she went to the ER because it was late. It was something that could have been treated, but they had to admit her. Because her health care includes hospitalization, but not ER.
This is what her insurance company negotiated instead of ER care. Believe it or not, it is CHEAPER to admit someone for 24 hour observation than it is to keep someone in the ER for 6 or more hours. Not to mention it clears the ER for people who have "life threating emergencies" that is what the ER is for not the clinic that so many use it as. The reason it is used as a clinic by so many without insurance it is ILLEGAL to turn ANYONE away from the ER period...



I want health care that returns medical decisions to medical professionals. I want to choose my doctors, not have my choice dictated by a health care agency. If a doctor recommends a procedure, I don't want to have to wait and see if some health care person deems it necessary.
Guess what Gabby....... So do they!!!!!!!!!!!!


If you got laid off and have to work some low wage job to support your family, who pays if you get sick or injured? Most places like that don't offer health care.
If you are raising a family, and you don't have a good job, you can't afford private health care. It's a racket and few can afford it.
There are a number of security blankets in place to catch people in these types of situation, I know that there are hoops one needs to jump through but at the state level their are a number of programs for just these type of problems. Key word here Gabby is STATE level NOT FEDERAL level...



I want health care reform I don't care if it is Obama's plan, a Republican plan or bipartisan plan. There are way too many people at risk.
I want a system that deals with the physicians making the decisions and proscribing a series of treatment and our insurance companies paying a "fair market value" as well as the fed paying a "fair market value" for ALL procedures, if this was done the cost would come down. Everyone thinks is a difficult thing to fix actually in the grand scheme of things it is quite simple, if and I say if we keep the bureaucracy out of it. Nothing has ever been improved by govt involvement.....

[gabosaurus]

Ya know Nukeman, I don't agree with you on many things. But I do appreciate that you take the time to think out and present your own ideas. Which separates you from the copy-and-paste majority on this forum.
I am going to take some time to read over your ideas and think about them. Then I will get back to you.
Thanks for your response. :D

[gabosaurus]

VA's should be eliminated and the government should be a CASH paying customer for ALL VETS. Did you know that you do NOT need a US medical license to work in the VA system. Did you also know that the VA operates independently of ALL overseeing agencies that look at EVERY other health care facility that include JACHO, State board of health, EPA, NRC, OSHA.

I read a bit more about this and found it to be a quite frightening actuality. Makes me wonder why this is such a hot button topic among vets and those associated with the military.
I read where the VA is more wasteful than any hospital, because it has no bottom line to worry about. It's a total disgrace.



Do you honestly believe the govt would do better at this especially when we get to end of the year and money is tight. This is exactly the type of problems they have in socialized medicine. It is called rationing. I guarantee it will a hundred times worse with the govt in charge.

I wouldn't mind having a system like England has. The way my friend Lauren and her husband describe it, you are not bound by the rules of national health care. You can opt out and use private physicians. You just have to pay for it.
To me, that makes sense. If you don't have the means, you can opt for the government programs. If you are better off, or can afford it, you can choose your own options.


The point is "health care" doesn't need to be overhauled the insurance payment plans and tort reform are the area's that need the most reform.

This is one of my "hot buttons" -- tort reform. I can't imagine how much more manageable medical costs would be if hospitals and practitioners didn't have to worry about getting sued for everything. Malpractice insurance and premiums are way too high.
It's not the aggrieved that get the money either -- it's the attorneys.
Something has to change.



IF and I say IF everyone payed what a test is WORTH (not what we would like to be payed but what we need to perform the tests and make a modest 5% profit to maintain up to date equipment) Than you would actually see a reduction of 50-60% in actually cost.. Since insurance companies and the fed negotiate (term used VERY loosely) and pay pennies on the dollar the prices come up..

You see, this is why we need to keep the insurance companies out of the medical biz. Why are they even involved in negotiating prices?



I want a system that deals with the physicians making the decisions and proscribing a series of treatment and our insurance companies paying a "fair market value" as well as the fed paying a "fair market value" for ALL procedures, if this was done the cost would come down. Everyone thinks is a difficult thing to fix actually in the grand scheme of things it is quite simple, if and I say if we keep the bureaucracy out of it. Nothing has ever been improved by govt involvement....

We don't need government external involvement. We do need government funding. There has to be some sort of programs where those who can't afford private health care insurance can get some sort of coverage at a lower cost.
Yes, it costs money. But much money is wasted by treating people with no coverage at all? Perhaps it could be the same sort of system they use for low-rent, fixed-mortgage housing.

I don't know about you guys, but I want to look out for my neighbor. I am not in favor of closing the doors, locking the windows and telling everyone who is less fortunate than I am to screw off and die. Perhaps the remainder of you don't care about anyone other than yourself and your family.

Nukeman, thanks for your comments. They are eye-opening. I look forward to reading more of them. :D