4yo and lying/negative behavior...

[KitchenKitten99]

Oh the joys of not knowing what to do. This post is for both myself and the mother of this girl (I do in-home daycare). This is the 4yo (Grace) with the eating issue (which is kind of resolved, at least for now).

For the past 2.5-3 weeks, we (her parents and I) have had to discipline her for lying and deceitful behavior. We are both at a loss as to how to correct this. We have done time-outs, privilege loss, grounding (them) and anything non-physical as far as punishment. I even went so far as to pack away the favorite dolls she likes to play with here because of this behavior.

It isn't just the lying, its also trying to get her brother (Paul) and my son (Nathan) in trouble. Example: Last week she was on a time-out for taking a toy from her brother without asking (she tried to lie about it, but she's not good at it and I know when she is), so she got the time-out chair.

Paul (2.5yo) and Nathan (3.5) were sitting at the kiddie table playing, which was nearby where she was. My youngest (Ben, 11mo) crawled over to the table, but was playing with a toy he found. I turned my back to go make the snack, and a few seconds later Ben is on his back crying (his hurt cry) and I asked what happened. Grace immediately said Paul hit Ben. But it didn't seem plausible since the way he was sitting, he would have had to move his chair back on the carpet, get up, hit Ben, and sit down and slide his chair back in to hit him, all in about 5 seconds, because he was just not close enough to reach around, plus he just isn't creative enough to be that sneaky. I asked Grace for the truth, and she immediately did her little whimpering she does when she knows she's caught. I finally got the truth out of her, and we told her mom of course. This was last week. So far, every day last week and every day this week she has been caught doing this, trying to get either Paul or Nathan in trouble. The last two days, she has been coercing Nathan to hit her and Paul, then she screams and cries that he hurt her.

I asked her mom if it could be related to them packing up to move, because her negative behavior started around the same time, which was about 2.5 weeks ago. So, yesterday we both sat Grace down and talked to her about this, telling her it is ok to be upset or scared or feel whatever it is she is feeling about moving or any kind of change, but it isn't ok to do what she is doing, and she cannot use it as an excuse to behave this way, and it will not be tolerated. We told her if she is upset about anything, she needs to tell us or talk to anyone. We thought today would be lie-free. We were wrong. It wasn't even lunchtime, and Grace coerced Nathan into throwing blocks around the toy room, and I watched her try to get in the way and get hit, which she did and cried that Nathan threw the block at her. I asked her if that was the truth and she tried to say yes, but I persisted, and she did the wimpering thing... even though I saw what she did, I want her to own up to it and admit it.

So, I told her mom today. Her mom is so frustrated, as am I, so I told her I would ask for some advice on this. I have no experience with any child like this.

[Mr. P]

Oh the joys of not knowing what to do. This post is for both myself and the mother of this girl (I do in-home daycare). This is the 4yo (Grace) with the eating issue (which is kind of resolved, at least for now).

For the past 2.5-3 weeks, we (her parents and I) have had to discipline her for lying and deceitful behavior. We are both at a loss as to how to correct this. We have done time-outs, privilege loss, grounding (them) and anything non-physical as far as punishment. I even went so far as to pack away the favorite dolls she likes to play with here because of this behavior.

It isn't just the lying, its also trying to get her brother (Paul) and my son (Nathan) in trouble. Example: Last week she was on a time-out for taking a toy from her brother without asking (she tried to lie about it, but she's not good at it and I know when she is), so she got the time-out chair.

Paul (2.5yo) and Nathan (3.5) were sitting at the kiddie table playing, which was nearby where she was. My youngest (Ben, 11mo) crawled over to the table, but was playing with a toy he found. I turned my back to go make the snack, and a few seconds later Ben is on his back crying (his hurt cry) and I asked what happened. Grace immediately said Paul hit Ben. But it didn't seem plausible since the way he was sitting, he would have had to move his chair back on the carpet, get up, hit Ben, and sit down and slide his chair back in to hit him, all in about 5 seconds, because he was just not close enough to reach around, plus he just isn't creative enough to be that sneaky. I asked Grace for the truth, and she immediately did her little whimpering she does when she knows she's caught. I finally got the truth out of her, and we told her mom of course. This was last week. So far, every day last week and every day this week she has been caught doing this, trying to get either Paul or Nathan in trouble. The last two days, she has been coercing Nathan to hit her and Paul, then she screams and cries that he hurt her.

I asked her mom if it could be related to them packing up to move, because her negative behavior started around the same time, which was about 2.5 weeks ago. So, yesterday we both sat Grace down and talked to her about this, telling her it is ok to be upset or scared or feel whatever it is she is feeling about moving or any kind of change, but it isn't ok to do what she is doing, and she cannot use it as an excuse to behave this way, and it will not be tolerated. We told her if she is upset about anything, she needs to tell us or talk to anyone. We thought today would be lie-free. We were wrong. It wasn't even lunchtime, and Grace coerced Nathan into throwing blocks around the toy room, and I watched her try to get in the way and get hit, which she did and cried that Nathan threw the block at her. I asked her if that was the truth and she tried to say yes, but I persisted, and she did the wimpering thing... even though I saw what she did, I want her to own up to it and admit it.

So, I told her mom today. Her mom is so frustrated, as am I, so I told her I would ask for some advice on this. I have no experience with any child like this.

IMHO, this kid needs more personal attention, she is not getting it..so she screams for it with the eating thing and the lying!

[LiberalNation]

Some kids are just mean.

No real advice from me. I don't like kids and am not around them.

[KitchenKitten99]

IMHO, this kid needs more personal attention, she is not getting it..so she screams for it with the eating thing and the lying!

She gets plenty of attention. The only thing that has changed in her life is the moving thing, and we have talked to her about that, one on one. We do the same schedule every day and every week, and I always have 1-on-1 time with her (when the boys are napping after lunch), but her severe negative behavior has lost her the privileges of doing fun stuff that we usually do when the boys are napping. I have told her this. I tell her that because of her lying and negative behavior, she loses out. She lost out on the egg hunt on Friday with the other kids (my friend brought her 4 kids over to play) because of the thing with hurting Ben on purpose to get her brother in trouble. I told her I don't tolerate anyone trying to hurt the babies and she was to sit on the couch for the rest of the day and miss the egg hunt. I thought for sure that would cure the problem because she was so excited and helped fill the eggs with me all week.

I am afraid that giving her more attention will just reinforce the idea that if she acts up, she gets more positive attention, so anytime she feels in need, just be naughty. She gets just as much attention as the other older kids. The babies of course, get more, but for obvious reasons.

[KitchenKitten99]

Some kids are just mean.

No real advice from me. I don't like kids and am not around them.
then why did you answer if you didn't have anything to contribute? :confused:

[Mr. P]

She gets plenty of attention. The only thing that has changed in her life is the moving thing, and we have talked to her about that, one on one. We do the same schedule every day and every week, and I always have 1-on-1 time with her (when the boys are napping after lunch), but her severe negative behavior has lost her the privileges of doing fun stuff that we usually do when the boys are napping. I have told her this. I tell her that because of her lying and negative behavior, she loses out. She lost out on the egg hunt on Friday with the other kids (my friend brought her 4 kids over to play) because of the thing with hurting Ben on purpose to get her brother in trouble. I told her I don't tolerate anyone trying to hurt the babies and she was to sit on the couch for the rest of the day and miss the egg hunt. I thought for sure that would cure the problem because she was so excited and helped fill the eggs with me all week.

I am afraid that giving her more attention will just reinforce the idea that if she acts up, she gets more positive attention, so anytime she feels in need, just be naughty. She gets just as much attention as the other older kids. The babies of course, get more, but for obvious reasons.

That's why she is acting up. IMO

I'm not talking about attention you give her, I'm talking about the attention that counts, that being at home. My guess is it ain't happening.

[krisy]

That's why she is acting up. IMO

I'm not talking about attention you give her, I'm talking about the attention that counts, that being at home. My guess is it ain't happening.


I'm thinking the exact same thing,P. Thatbehavior is totally typical of a kid screaming for love and attention.

[LiberalNation]

then why did you answer if you didn't have anything to contribute?
That was my contribute.

[jackass]

I would have to agree with Mr. P. We saw the same type of behavior in the kids my wife was babysitting for.

[Said1]

She acts out, she gets attention. Classic attention getting behavior.

[Nienna]

IMHO, this kid needs more personal attention, she is not getting it..so she screams for it with the eating thing and the lying!

EXACTLY what I was thinking. :) Not saying YOU are the one not giving her attn, Fuzzy, but she most likely needs it from one or both of her PARENTS. There is only so much that a babysitter can do for a kid, emotionally.

[KitchenKitten99]

EXACTLY what I was thinking. :) Not saying YOU are the one not giving her attn, Fuzzy, but she most likely needs it from one or both of her PARENTS. There is only so much that a babysitter can do for a kid, emotionally.

Well, the only thing I can think of that has changed is the fact her parents are busy packing and getting stuff done to move, because I think they actually move next saturday. This could be part of the problem, but I shouldn't have to be the one to have to deal with it all. She does it at home apparently, but it doesn't sound like it is as bad as here.

So, since it is an attention thing, how do we nip this in the bud? I don't think the situation at home is going to change until they get all the moving and unpacking done, meanwhile she's hurting my 11mo and letting my 3yo think it is ok and funny to hurt people with objects. Talking to her has not helped.

[Gaffer]

A young aspiring liberal there. You do realize you are discribing all the liberal traits. Some kids grow out of it, some don't. Keep up the punishments as eventually it will sink in. Your being consistant and that's the only way to break that behavior.

[loosecannon]

A young aspiring liberal there. You do realize you are discribing all the liberal traits. Some kids grow out of it, some don't. Keep up the punishments as eventually it will sink in. Your being consistant and that's the only way to break that behavior.

Hey Gaffe, thanks again for the numerous neg rep points, sorry about the alzheimer's, Krissy just told me in a PM.

Hope you grow out of it. Some kids grow out of it, some don't.

[Mr. P]

Well, the only thing I can think of that has changed is the fact her parents are busy packing and getting stuff done to move, because I think they actually move next saturday. This could be part of the problem, but I shouldn't have to be the one to have to deal with it all. She does it at home apparently, but it doesn't sound like it is as bad as here.

So, since it is an attention thing, how do we nip this in the bud? I don't think the situation at home is going to change until they get all the moving and unpacking done, meanwhile she's hurting my 11mo and letting my 3yo think it is ok and funny to hurt people with objects. Talking to her has not helped.

You can't! Wakeup an sniff the roses, Fuzzy. This kid had some eating problem a few months ago right? So they're moving now, big deal. This is a problem AT HOME that has been going on for who knows how long, one that you can't fix.

[Nienna]

Well, the only thing I can think of that has changed is the fact her parents are busy packing and getting stuff done to move, because I think they actually move next saturday. This could be part of the problem, but I shouldn't have to be the one to have to deal with it all. She does it at home apparently, but it doesn't sound like it is as bad as here.

So, since it is an attention thing, how do we nip this in the bud? I don't think the situation at home is going to change until they get all the moving and unpacking done, meanwhile she's hurting my 11mo and letting my 3yo think it is ok and funny to hurt people with objects. Talking to her has not helped.

Have you ever explained to her what she needs? When my kids were very young (I only had 3 kids then, but my oldest was three, and I just had the new baby), my oldest child, Abbie, started scratching her little sister, and just generally acting wild and extremely whiny. I sat her down and had a talk with her about how I didn't have as much time since I had to (breast)feed the new baby, but I still cared about her. I told her that the reason she feels mad at Emma is because she wants attention from me. So, what she needed to do was to TELL me she needs attention, instead of scratching Emma. We practiced the word "attention" (she actually said it more like "PUH-tention" :)). It wasn't a perfect solution, because she still had to accept the fact that breast-feeding is very time-consuming. But, it did get her to stop scratching her sister. And I did try to stop EVERY time she verbalized her feelings, and at least LOOK at her and say a few words, if I couldn't spend time right then. I think many times, kids don't know HOW to verbalize their feelings. They don't know why they feel the way they do, and we as adults don't think they are capable of understanding, or we don't know either. But, putting it into words can really help. Just a suggestion.

[KitchenKitten99]

Have you ever explained to her what she needs? When my kids were very young (I only had 3 kids then, but my oldest was three, and I just had the new baby), my oldest child, Abbie, started scratching her little sister, and just generally acting wild and extremely whiny. I sat her down and had a talk with her about how I didn't have as much time since I had to (breast)feed the new baby, but I still cared about her. I told her that the reason she feels mad at Emma is because she wants attention from me. So, what she needed to do was to TELL me she needs attention, instead of scratching Emma. We practiced the word "attention" (she actually said it more like "PUH-tention" :)). It wasn't a perfect solution, because she still had to accept the fact that breast-feeding is very time-consuming. But, it did get her to stop scratching her sister. And I did try to stop EVERY time she verbalized her feelings, and at least LOOK at her and say a few words, if I couldn't spend time right then. I think many times, kids don't know HOW to verbalize their feelings. They don't know why they feel the way they do, and we as adults don't think they are capable of understanding, or we don't know either. But, putting it into words can really help. Just a suggestion.
Oh, her mom and I both sat her down last night even, and talked to her about getting attention and that while she may want or need the attention, sometimes she may not get it when she wants or the way she wants. I have other kids, specifically babies to care for, and her parents are in the midst of something very important. We know what she needs, it just may have to wait. Especially with me, because the other baby that I watch, has some benign medical issues (reflux and inner-ear issues) to where he needs more attention as far as trying to make him comfortable.

She understands everything, or at least she says she does. We asked her what causes her to lie, and she says to get what she wants. we told her that is the wrong way to do it and that she cannot get what she wants every time she wants it. There are limits and rules and breaking them only brings trouble.

So, we thought today would be different. Again, wrong. She wasn't here even 10 minutes and I already caught her lying. She was trying to take a toy from her brother, and he was objecting loudly of course. I asked her what she was doing and she tried to tell me she had it first. I knew Paul had it (I saw him with it), not her, and I asked her to tell me the truth, and she did the whimpering thing. This is getting SO old, I can't even comprehend it.

[LiberalNation]

Some kids are just mean but really the kids 4. You're looking to much into it.

[darin]

Have you ever explained to her what she needs? When my kids were very young (I only had 3 kids then, but my oldest was three, and I just had the new baby), my oldest child, Abbie, started scratching her little sister, and just generally acting wild and extremely whiny. I sat her down and had a talk with her about how I didn't have as much time since I had to (breast)feed the new baby, but I still cared about her. I told her that the reason she feels mad at Emma is because she wants attention from me. So, what she needed to do was to TELL me she needs attention, instead of scratching Emma. We practiced the word "attention" (she actually said it more like "PUH-tention" :)). It wasn't a perfect solution, because she still had to accept the fact that breast-feeding is very time-consuming. But, it did get her to stop scratching her sister. And I did try to stop EVERY time she verbalized her feelings, and at least LOOK at her and say a few words, if I couldn't spend time right then. I think many times, kids don't know HOW to verbalize their feelings. They don't know why they feel the way they do, and we as adults don't think they are capable of understanding, or we don't know either. But, putting it into words can really help. Just a suggestion.


WOW. You are the most patient woman I know. I would have just beat her. (shrug).

[KitchenKitten99]

Some kids are just mean but really the kids 4. You're looking to much into it.

I'll try to be as nice about this as possible. You are a liberal. Liberals have no problems with lies because they themselves lie every day, and think it is acceptable and justified, however they only think that on the surface, deep down they know it is wrong, but if the lie serves their agenda, so be it.

My conservative beliefs dictate that lying is not acceptable. It is not tolerated. Lying about small things leads to lying about larger things.

[darin]

I'll try to be as nice about this as possible. You are a liberal. Liberals have no problems with lies because they themselves lie every day, and think it is acceptable and justified, however they only think that on the surface, deep down they know it is wrong, but if the lie serves their agenda, so be it.

My conservative beliefs dictate that lying is not acceptable. It is not tolerated. Lying about small things leads to lying about larger things.


You've hit on something - Liberals 'tend' to treat the behavior...They send an ADULT to "Therapy" to correct the Adult's Childhood. Conservative, or otherwise wise people, use a childhood to SHAPE the Adult - said another way, we use the CHILDHOOD years to Correct the ADULT behaviour they exhibit when they're grown.

LiberalNation seems to have VERY little concept of actually RAISING kids - a LOT of libs I know think they are being GOOD parents by simply keeping their child ALIVE and dumping 'stuff' on their kid when the kids acts up (iPods, Candy, Money, etc.).

[LiberalNation]

More sterotipical lib bullshit.

[Nienna]

WOW. You are the most patient woman I know. I would have just beat her. (shrug).

I was just going to say that. After all that, the parent should spank her. Nothing else is working. But I don't know if Fuzzy has the authority to do that.

[KitchenKitten99]

I was just going to say that. After all that, the parent should spank her. Nothing else is working. But I don't know if Fuzzy has the authority to do that.

Nope. Even if the parents say I can spank... the GOVERNMENT says no. Same issue with placing babies on their backs to sleep, unless doctor-written-permission is given. While I am totally for it, if the parents tell me (even in writing) to place baby on their tummy, I can't unless there is a medical reason and the doctor gives me a written note signed by him and parent(s).

The most I have to use right now is timeouts and priviledge/toy loss. :::Sigh::::

[Nienna]

Nope. Even if the parents say I can spank... the GOVERNMENT says no. Same issue with placing babies on their backs to sleep, unless doctor-written-permission is given. While I am totally for it, if the parents tell me (even in writing) to place baby on their tummy, I can't unless there is a medical reason and the doctor gives me a written note signed by him and parent(s).

The most I have to use right now is timeouts and priviledge/toy loss. :::Sigh::::

Poor Fuzzy. :( But, like Mr. P said, I really think this is a parenting issue, and you just have to keep doing the best you can, both to teach her, and to protect the other kids. :(


OOo! Here's something I do, and boys, especially seem to lap it up, but it works with the girls, too. I make them my deputy. Keep them really busy with little chores. With the boys, it gives them a sense of purpose & pride. bc I trust them to be responsible. I don't know if you CAN trust her to be responsible, but it might keep her busy?

[Mr. P]

Here's an option, if all else fails FIRE them. Loss of income sure, but it may be well worth the peace of mind and the ability for ALL to return to a 'normal' environment.

[Trigg]

Nope. Even if the parents say I can spank... the GOVERNMENT says no. Same issue with placing babies on their backs to sleep, unless doctor-written-permission is given. While I am totally for it, if the parents tell me (even in writing) to place baby on their tummy, I can't unless there is a medical reason and the doctor gives me a written note signed by him and parent(s).

The most I have to use right now is timeouts and priviledge/toy loss. :::Sigh::::

Tough situation all around. Most kids go through a lying phase in order to get away with something or to keep themselves out of trouble. The parents need to be dealing with this and the child needs to know that they will find out about everything that happens at daycare. Is the child being punished at home for the things done at your house??

On the occasions my kids lied to me I would get down on their level, look them in the eye and tell them I already suspect that they're lying and they have one more chance to fess up before the real punishment happens.

I have always told them that the lying will get them in more trouble than the original offense.

[Trigg]

Some kids are just mean but really the kids 4. You're looking to much into it.


A child of 4 knows what lying is and if it isn't stopped at this age it will just get worse.

[KitchenKitten99]

Tough situation all around. Most kids go through a lying phase in order to get away with something or to keep themselves out of trouble. The parents need to be dealing with this and the child needs to know that they will find out about everything that happens at daycare. Is the child being punished at home for the things done at your house??

On the occasions my kids lied to me I would get down on their level, look them in the eye and tell them I already suspect that they're lying and they have one more chance to fess up before the real punishment happens.

I have always told them that the lying will get them in more trouble than the original offense.

I think it is partly this, and part the stress of moving (most of her stuff is packed except for daily stuff, etc.). I don't plan on letting the family go, since this is a phase and only started just recently.

Yes, both the kids have issues, but there is no guarantee the next ones wouldn't, if not worse. I would rather just deal with the problem, and hopefully aid mom in getting it stopped. I just was looking for ideas and insight into this, which many of you have provided, and I say thanks to that.

[krisy]

Hey Gaffe, thanks again for the numerous neg rep points, sorry about the alzheimer's, Krissy just told me in a PM.

Hope you grow out of it. Some kids grow out of it, some don't.


Why don't you take it to the steel cage,instead of disrupting Fuzzys thread?

[jackass]

Some kids grow out of it, some don't. Keep up the punishments as eventually it will sink in. Your being consistant and that's the only way to break that behavior.
I agree with Gaffer. Consistancy on your part!

[Said1]

Nienna's idea about putting her in charge is good, I've used that one myself. Did you try telling her that if she keeps lying, no one will believe her when someone really does hit her a la the boy who cried wolf? I've used that, it actually worked much better than I ever thought it would. I even caught one little girl who was really bad for telling fibs about being hit. The fight started over a crayon, when she couldn't get what she wanted, she said the other girl hit her. I saw the entire thing, no hitting whatsoever. it was really funny because the accused child and the others were laughing at her, she never lied again. At least not at my house. These girls were a bit older, but the little trouble maker was the same age, 4. :laugh2:

[KitchenKitten99]

Nienna's idea about putting her in charge is good, I've used that one myself. Did you try telling her that if she keeps lying, no one will believe her when someone really does hit her a la the boy who cried wolf? I've used that, it actually worked much better than I ever thought it would. I even caught one little girl who was really bad for telling fibs about being hit. The fight started over a crayon, when she couldn't get what she wanted, she said the other girl hit her. I saw the entire thing, no hitting whatsoever. it was really funny because the accused child and the others were laughing at her, she never lied again. At least not at my house. These girls were a bit older, but the little trouble maker was the same age, 4. :laugh2:

I have told her about the 'cry wolf' thing, and have even gone so far as to when I know she is telling the truth about something, I tell her I don't know if I believe her because she has lied before. But that has not worked, at least it doesn't appear to have done.

Putting her in charge is hard, because she's already real bossy (typical firstborn). I am afraid she'll take it too far. I have put her in charge of stuff before (unrelated stuff) and she got so bossy and selfish it really seemed like it just backfired. She already tries to tell the other kids what to do, and goes so far as to try to physically make them do something they don't want to do. So how do I put her in charge without her getting out of control with it?

[Nienna]

I have told her about the 'cry wolf' thing, and have even gone so far as to when I know she is telling the truth about something, I tell her I don't know if I believe her because she has lied before. But that has not worked, at least it doesn't appear to have done.

Putting her in charge is hard, because she's already real bossy (typical firstborn). I am afraid she'll take it too far. I have put her in charge of stuff before (unrelated stuff) and she got so bossy and selfish it really seemed like it just backfired. She already tries to tell the other kids what to do, and goes so far as to try to physically make them do something they don't want to do. So how do I put her in charge without her getting out of control with it?

Hey! I'm a firstborn, and I was NEVER that bossy! :halo:

Maybe try giving her fetching tasks. I do that with my boys, and explain how I am counting on them to bring me --- . But, honestly, I don't know if that would change her behavior. Just maybe keep her busy for awhile, so that when she is finally "free" she appreciates her time more and plays nicely. I'm thinking it is really a parenting thing, and there isn't much you can do besides what you are already doing. So hang in there!

Go, Fuzzy, Go!

http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/cheerleader.gif