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Dekon
08-07-2009, 11:46 PM
This is long - and I'm not sorry for it. It's a deep topic, and it needs a lot.

Having said that, I understand that a great deal of you will highly disagree with me - that's fine. Still, I worked hard to try and be respectful with this, and I do respect all of you and your views.

I worked very hard and spent a lot of time in research for this - I hope it inspires some thought.

Without further ado :

One Ring to Bind Them

In creation of a perfect day, the brush strokes of the sun's light rained down through the brilliantly blue skies. They shone against the walls of a massive church consisting of many buildings, high triangular ceilings, and a generally awe-inspiring presence. And though it was towards this goliath that I was being driven, I would soon find that it was not my destination. It was instead in the shadow of this structure that lay my reason for coming to Austin, Texas. So small and aloof, it might have been mistaken for an old and less used chapel belonging to the church next door. It was, however, a church of its own. And it was in this small building that my cousin would be wed. While this was a beautiful and amazing event, it is not the purpose of this scene here. What is notable here is not whom was married, but who married them. For standing before my cousin and her soon to be husband, facilitating their union before g-d, was a woman who, in the worst sort of irony, would never have the same pleasure. Though she had dedicated her life in service to g-d, and swore no vows of celibacy as the Catholic preachers do, it was the laws of mankind that would deny her the joy she had worked hard to be allowed to give to others. She was a lesbian – her partner was kind enough to do the photography and video of the wedding. In my conversations with her, I discovered she was a very normal woman. I was still young in my faith and prone to its less tolerant perspectives, but it was perhaps my communication with her that began to allow this to change. She was not evil or sinful. She was not a beast of crude lusts. She was none of the stereotypes, but instead a strong sister in Christ. Yet her brothers in faith do not allow her the rights she employs for others, and they do so through the cold script of the law.

Same-sex marriage should be available, but it should not be the state that allows it, for the state does not have the authority. However, this claim cannot be made without still addressing the issues and concerns of my fellow Christians – specifically those of conservative and moderate persuasion. The former shroud themselves in the belief that homosexuality is an evil social ill that will inevitably lead to the downfall of all society. Further, and perhaps more applicable here, the general consensus of these conservatives is that homosexuality is an abomination to g-d, a great sin, and a corruption to the form of marriage intended by scripture. The moderate brothers and sisters often uphold a more tolerant view – that homosexuals should be loved as everyone should be loved, and still greatly respected. These moderates view homosexuality as a sin, same-sex marriage as wrong, and several believe homosexuality a curable condition. Yet a strong distinction between the moderates and the conservatives exists, as the moderates find these 'acts' wrong, while the conservatives find the 'people' wrong. The moderates distinguish between the two, and seek to love the homosexuals while dispelling homosexuality. Present as well are liberal Christians who support both homosexuality and homosexuals and seek to bring forth the legalization of same-sex marriage in the courts. While I sympathize with their loving acceptance, it must be stated in fairness that they have made mistakes as well. Namely, they have distinguished themselves with harsh words and thoughts from the Christian conservatives, and are often prone to build arguments from incomplete information to support their conclusions.

Each of these groups must be addressed individually, as all have valid concerns and views – and thus it shall begin with the conservatives. It should be admired, first, that the conservatives would stand against the tide of culture to uphold their views. They recognize, as should all, that the majority is not 'right' simply because it is a majority, nor is the 'new' right simply because it is 'new.’ Instead they do not fear to place their palm upon the worn pages of scripture and state boldly “Here I stand, and no further!” And thus it must begin with them, because in finding what the g-dly perspective on homosexuals is, it must begin with finding what is right in the 'old' – what is right in scripture.

Perhaps no Christian conservative stands out more boldly than James Dobson on this issue. A leader of Focus on the Family, Dobson seeks to convince audiences far and wide that homosexuality “will quickly destroy the traditional family” (483). Dobson, as well as many of his associates, argues that if same-sex marriage is legalized, “the younger generation becomes confused about sexual identity and quickly loses its understanding of lifelong commitments, emotional bonding, sexual purity, the role of children in a family, and, from a spiritual perspective, the sanctity of marriage” (483). First, it is important to state that Dobson is correct in holding these values dear – for they are. However, his error is not in his values, which are honorable, but in his support and presuppositions. Concerning the latter, it would seem Dobson believes that homosexual relationships cannot hold these values. Yet no proof of this presupposition stands. Certainly there exist homosexual couples that hold lifelong relationships, have deep emotional bonds, are faithful to each other, have a strong value and wish for children, and are spiritually strong. For the percentage which is not some or all of these, who is to say that they are not simply victims of a culture that tells them they are wrong, and therefore they leave the values behind? Are homosexuals naturally deviant, unable to feel, and promiscuous, or are they simply reacting to abandonment by the world around them? For support, Dobson cites European countries that have legalized same-sex marriage, and the reader is to presume his suggestion is that the 'family life' in these countries is enduring great suffering. While the latter is perhaps true, the former is not necessarily the cause. Changes in cultural views and the direction of society could have caused this, but there seems a more likely cause. For since World War II, family life has suffered in almost all European countries – only one or two still have a rising population at all. Indeed, all of Europe still lives under the shadow of a war that threatened to tear the world apart. It is not simply those countries that have legalized same-sex marriage.

The second argument Dobson gives (and again, many of his contemporaries – for it would matter little if it was one man) is to state that the allowance of same-sex marriage would open the door to polygamy, incest, and bestiality. Once again, the conservative’s values are admirable – for these actions would be negative towards society and the family structure. The suggestion being made here, though, is a categorization of the mind. 'A' leads to 'B' which leads to 'C' simply because society structures it so. The presupposition in Dobson's argument is first and foremost that same-sex marriage is 'A'. If it is not 'A' at all, but rather '2,’ then there ceases to be a difficulty. In order for Dobson's fear to be true, homosexuality must be the same type of thing as the others – that is, a deviant thing. Thus, his argument is found to be circular. Homosexuality is bad because it will lead to bad things – and it will lead to bad things because it is bad. In addition, his point suggests that humanity has no control over the direction of culture. Fate, it seems, plays in to even modern world views – even by those would state disbelief in fate. For it is fate Dobson suggests here by suggesting that 'if A, then B.’ The presupposition here is that society has no control over the 'then', and that is simply not true.

Perhaps the most common argument against same-sex marriage is not one made by Dobson in his article, but is made by a great number of conservatives. Randomly, as it has been said many times in many ways, Donald Demarco's words shall be used to illustrate when he states that “people who are of the same sex can love each other, be friends, or remain lifelong allies. They cannot, however, be married to each other according to a two-in-one flesh intimacy that is intrinsically ordered to parenthood.” It is important to take a moment and state that biblical language has now been entered, and shall be addressed again momentarily. For now, the moment shall be centered on the word 'parenthood' in its relation to marriage, for the argument at hand here which is so oft given by the conservatives is that marriage is defined by procreation. The purpose of marriage is the family, they claim, and the purpose of the family is children. This argument, however, is 'holy' in a very wrong way. The errors are glaringly obvious. To begin – this statement suggests a very linear, emotionless view of marriage. The very feeling of it is empty and stale – that this most sacred union simply exists to continue the line of humanity endlessly. Certainly the means to marriage is love – and thus love should be the focus. When was it decided that the focus should be children, and not the hearts of the two being married? Certainly children are never mentioned in the vows the couples take. The mothers do not spend vast deals of time designing imaginary children of the couples to place on the wedding cakes. Wedding gifts have never consisted of diapers and cradles. Indeed, the wedding ceremony seems to hold absolutely nothing to do with children. It does, however, seem to hold everything to do with love. In fact, it would seem to be the extreme focus on children that has created the infamous modern difficulties with marriage to begin with. The very reason many young couples fail is likely due to their own parents focus on children instead of each other, thus never providing the model for relationships. Likewise, it would seem to be that many failed marriages late in life have everything to do with the man looking across the table and seeing a woman he does not recognize, for his eyes had been so trained on the children for so many years. Perhaps the healthiest means of raising a child and having a successful marriage is to place the focus of the marriage on the spouse. It is love that binds the couple, and not the child they had. Of course, the old and still unanswered line remains: what of couples unable to procreate? Or those that do not wish to have children, even if they are heterosexual? Should they be allowed to marry? If yes, then the argument that procreation is the focus of marriage is rendered null entirely.

Yet the question is begged – where does this presupposition that marriage is focused on procreation come from? George and Tubbs argue from a biological perspective: “The norm originates in the sexual complementarity of a husband and wife as a biological unit, and it functions to increase the likelihood that children will be reared by their biological parents” – that the man and woman function in union to create children. However, humanity has utterly and bluntly disregarded biology in the determination of its values, as it keeps alive its disabled and weak in defiance of evolution, and so it would seem quite foolish to begin determining values based upon biology now. If we are to accept George and Tubb's views on biological-ethics, then we ought to take lessons from some of the more terrible leaders in human history. Thus, it is perhaps wise to look to the stronger moral law of the conservatives: The Bible.

It would be wise to begin by stating that the authority of the Bible shall not be contested here. It is an authority the author here submits to, and in this agrees heavily with the conservatives. However, that the Bible has much to say at all in favor of this view of marriage is disagreed with. In fact, the Bible would seem to fly in the face of the idea that the focus of marriage is children. The marriage spoken of in scripture seems to revolve instead entirely around the couple. In Genesis, g-d did not make Eve for Adam because Adam needed offspring, but because “It is not good that man should be alone” (Gen. 2:18). Even though they are told to ‘be fruitful and multiply,’ it is not in direct relevance to why they are a couple. In Ephesians, husbands are called to submit to and love their wives as themselves, and wives are called to submit to and love their husbands as themselves. Never does scripture tell humanity to marry in order to raise children.

Of course the deeper issue at hand of whether homosexuality is acceptable at all according to scripture remains. Only twice is this subject ever raised in all of scripture. The first is in Leviticus, in the Old Testament. No one – not even modern Jews – follows the Law of Moses any longer. Jesus declared himself a replacement for the Law, and summed up the entirety of the Law in a new way by commanding humanity to simply love g-d and love each other. The Emmanuel never spoke of homosexuality directly, but Paul did after him in both Corinthians 6:9 with “homosexual offenders” and in Romans 1:24-27. It has been suggested that he is misread either due to translation issues or because Paul was addressing the more deviant social leaders of the time (Miller, 30). Perhaps more important, and more relevant here, is an examination on the nature of morality and sin.

This is best done by stating first that they are two separate matters. Both are determined by g-d, but they are achieved through entirely different means, and defined separately. The father of contemporary moral philosophy is generally considered to be Emmanuel Kant – a follower of Christ who was one of the first to suggest that morality was determined by g-d given reason rather than direct biblical authority (Connelly). And it is with this that we find this author’s definition of modern moralistic thought: The establishment of ethical philosophy using g-d given reason and critical thinking that judgment and law can be addressed across the religious and secular divide. In contrast, sin, by definition, is much more straightforward. It is simply this: Disobeying g-d. Therefore, one might sin without breaking any moral law. One might feel commanded to speak to a lonely-looking man across the room, and might sin if she do not, but certainly no rationally moral wrong is committed. This is important, because there is no rationally ethical reason why homosexuality should be deemed immoral by any moral philosophy models (Kant, Utilitarianism, etc). Yet if g-d commands against it, it is still sinful.

Several matters, however, still insist to be addressed. To begin, because sin is simply disobediance of a command of g-d, this command can be ceased at any time. It can also be given to one, but not to another. It can tell one man that his sexual behavior is wrong, and another that it is right. Such knowledge is subjective, but it is the reality of a living g-d. Who among human thinkers has the right to argue otherwise? No one can tell a man that g-d has not given him permission for his actions, and truly be right. Though it is never stated, the manner of speech of many common speakers seems to suggest that g-d is bound to a ‘moral code’. Such things are said as ‘He is holy, and therefore cannot do wrong’. This suggestion imparts a moral authority which g-d is subject to. The difficulty with this is that g-d would then be ‘subject to’ something, and therefore cease to be a supreme authority. G-d would cease to be g-d. Instead, g-d has the right to do whatever it wishes, and deem right or wrong whatever it wishes for any man or woman.

For the sake of argument, let it be presupposed that homosexuality is a sin in a general sense. The difficulty becomes – ‘How should Christians handle it?’. While I applaud the conservatives for their steadfast hold on their beliefs, I believe this particular question has wrought the greatest failure. For even against those who sin, Christians are commanded to love and forgive. Therefore, those such as McMillan, who claims that “all that homosexuals have achieved since the 1960s has been achieved through manipulation, coercion or stealth,” are performing as great a sin as any homosexual. If such a thing as a ‘worse sin’ exists, it would be McMillan’s, for many homosexuals have abandoned g-d utterly purely because of language such as his. And if Christian doctrine proves true, it seems highly probable that g-d will one day state to him ‘Yes, he has sinned – but it is because of your sin that he never sought me, and never loved me! I have loved you despite your sin, yet you could not love despite his.’ A hypothetical example of this is a story of two brothers. The father of the two commands the brothers to never drink of a certain cup, but one day while the father is away one of the brothers disobeys and drinks. The second brother catches the first, and declares ‘What have you done? You will be in great trouble now, and our father will hate you and cast you out!’ In fear, the first brother runs from the house and never returns. Years later, the father meets his lost son by chance, and after embracing him asks ‘Why did you leave?’ to which the son replies ‘Because my brother told me you will hate me and despise me.’ If the father of this story is loving, it is likely his wrath will be turned towards the brother who caused the seperation and destruction of their family through his judgemental and self-righteous actions.

Unfortunately, it would seem to be the case that it is purely because of Christians that such a great number of homosexuals hold no value in religious belief, or at least value in the Judeo Christian Muslim concept of g-d. And the author and his brothers and sisters in faith shall be accountable for this. Yet it raises a new point as well – the rules and laws of the faith cannot be used to restrict and bind those who do not follow it. ‘Because g-d says so’ is not an appropriate response to the secular homosexual or, truly, the secular anything. Morally, homosexuals have done no wrong, and if they do not believe in sin, then little to be done or said except to answer the previous questions.
Thus, how should Christians handle homosexuality? With incredible love. And it is here that the Christian moderates are met, and that the author now invites into the conversation. Moderates such as Chad Thompson still view homosexuality as a sin, and still find themselves against as same-sex marriage as their conservative brethren, but are judgmental only of the action, and not the homosexuals themselves. Rightfully, the moderates apply ‘love your neighbor’ to these men and women, and seek to minister and evangelize to the homosexual community.

While this is admirable, they still hold a large number of misconceptions held by the conservatives addressed previously. Different, though, is an additional thought on how to handle homosexuality – ‘curing’ it. Thompson concludes that, “as Christians, we know that homosexual feelings can be overcome, but most LGBT people view their attractions as an immutable identity.” Many moderates believe homosexuality a condition that can be treated with therapy. They will even acknowledge that homosexuals do not agree with this conclusion, such as when Thompson states, “If I were a homosexual who honestly believed that my orientation was unchangeable, I would probably view conservative Christians as bigots, just as many of them do.” It would seem that, faced with a desire to love the homosexuals and bring them into Christianity, yet still find homosexuality sinful, these moderates have simply and fully convinced themselves with no evidence that it must be changeable. No reliable source suggests any truth to this, and it would seem most psychological studies state otherwise. The American Psychological Association states that “even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, often coerced by family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable.” Again, they deal with the moderates views directly, stating :

“Some therapists who undertake so-called conversion therapy report that they have been able to change their clients' sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. Close scrutiny of these reports, however, show several factors that cast doubt on their claims. For example, many of these claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective that condemns homosexuality. Furthermore, their claims are poorly documented; for example, treatment outcome is not followed and reported over time, as would be the standard to test the validity of any mental health intervention. The American Psychological Association is concerned about such therapies and their potential harm to patients.”


Given this, the moderates have found themselves a dilemma. They must either accept that homosexuality may not be a sin, find themselves believing that some must simply be damned to a life of sin, or continue living with a very happy and pleasant lie that justifies their values.
It is the first of these that leads farther to the left- to the Christian liberals. The Christian liberals often believe homosexuality to not be a sin, either due to translation issues, misreading, or other philosophies. Lisa Miller of Newsweek even goes so far as to suggest that the Bible is a terrible place to find an understanding of marriage. The Old Testament, she says, seems to suggest the acceptance of polygamy, and the New Testament at times would seem to say that marriage is only a last resort for those entirely unable to remain single (28-30). While their efforts are admirable, and their conclusions are useful, but one presupposition here that the author must disagree with wholeheartedly still remains. It is, in fact, a presupposition held by all three view points. And it is here the author makes his case.

The matter can be stated as such: ‘Is marriage not a religious institution? Why, then, does it exist in secular society at all?’ It is this presupposition that is never proven – that the institution of marriage has any right whatsoever to determine what marriage is or is not. In fact, could it not be suggested that it is the secularization of marriage that has been its greatest downfall? That the union of man and woman before the creator of the universe – a lifetime commitment of joy and pain, of the union of two beings into one flesh – can be provided by a man in an Elvis costume in a slum district next to a brothel? The state does not care for the emotions and bindings of marriage – it is only concerned to whom it is to give legal benefits. Is it not possible that this emotionless machine of marriage is not partially responsible for the high divorce rate and disregard for the sacredness of marriage altogether?

Marriage should be returned to the religions, and it is within each respective faith that the issue of same-sex marriage will debate it. This would be the single greatest act of returning marriage to a sacred place, and same-sex marriage could not harm it there. The author here will continue to advocate for it, but shall be advocating for it on the ground it belongs, in the hands it belongs. For the secular world, the emotionless drum of the state can issue civil union licenses to all who wish one – A man and his wife or a man and his husband. It is not homosexuality that threatens marriage, for marriage was threatened by the modernist world view long ago, and is in dire straits because of it today. Truly, this is what Jesus spoke of – society has ignored the log in their eye in favor of the (perhaps imaginary) splinter (Matt. 7:3). If Christianity is to truly save marriage and return it to a sacred place, it must put down the picket signs and take up the cross, purifying it finally from secularism – not from homosexuals.


Works Cited

American Psychological Association. Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality. 2004. 04 May 2009. <http://www.apahelpcenter.org/articles/article.php?id=31>

Connelly, Michael. Personal Interview. 05 May 2009

DeMarco, Donald. "Same-Sex Marriage Should Not Be Allowed." Opposing Viewpoints: Family. Ed. Karen Miller. Detroit: Greenhaven Press, 2008. Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center. Gale. Metropolitan Comm. Coll. Longview Campus, Lee’s Summit. 05 Mar 2009 <http://infotrac.galegroup.com/>

Dobson, James. “Arguments against Same-Sex Marriage.” Marriage Under Fire: Why We Must Win This Battle. Sisters, 2004. Rpt. In Perspectives on Argument. 5th Ed. Nancy Wood. New Jersey: Pearson Education, Inc. 2007. 482-485.

Holy Bible, New International Version. 1984 International Bible Society.

McMillan, Craige. "Gay Marriage Is a Religious Hate Crime." At Issue: What is a Hate Crime?. Ed. Rob Winters. Detroit: Greenhaven Press, 2007. Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center. Gale. Metropolitan Comm. Coll. Longview Campus, Lee’s Summit. 1 May 2009. <http://infotrac.galegroup.com/>

Miller, Lisa. “The Religious Argument for Gay Marriage.” Newsweek 15 Dec. 2008: 28-31

Thompson, Chad. “Banning Gay Marriage Is Not The Answer.” Christianity Today 48. August (2004). May 1 2009. <http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/augustweb-only/8-30-22.0.html>

Tubbs, Robert P. George and David L. "Same-Sex Marriage Will Undermine the Institution of Marriage." Sex. Ed. Mary E. Williams. Opposing Viewpoints®. Detroit: Greenhaven Press,2006. Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center. Gale. Metropolitan Comm. Coll. Longview Campus, Lee’s Summit, MO 01 May 2009 < http://infotrac.galegroup.com/>

chesswarsnow
08-08-2009, 09:02 AM
Sorry bout that,


1. I don't know man, it pretty much says, being a homo is sin in the Bible.
2. And it does go so far as to condemn homos for it.
3. I'm going to have to go with the Bible on this one, being a Homo, will get you into the gates of hell.
4. And to make it equal with whats considered accepeted by God, man!women, being married, is a real problem.
5. Unless you don't believe in the Bible, and what it says, I suppose.
6. Homos being married, is wrong on so many levels.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

5stringJeff
08-08-2009, 12:46 PM
This is long - and I'm not sorry for it. It's a deep topic, and it needs a lot.

Having said that, I understand that a great deal of you will highly disagree with me - that's fine. Still, I worked hard to try and be respectful with this, and I do respect all of you and your views.

I worked very hard and spent a lot of time in research for this - I hope it inspires some thought.

Without further ado :

(snip)

Of course the deeper issue at hand of whether homosexuality is acceptable at all according to scripture remains. Only twice is this subject ever raised in all of scripture. The first is in Leviticus, in the Old Testament. No one – not even modern Jews – follows the Law of Moses any longer. Jesus declared himself a replacement for the Law, and summed up the entirety of the Law in a new way by commanding humanity to simply love g-d and love each other. The Emmanuel never spoke of homosexuality directly, but Paul did after him in both Corinthians 6:9 with “homosexual offenders” and in Romans 1:24-27. It has been suggested that he is misread either due to translation issues or because Paul was addressing the more deviant social leaders of the time (Miller, 30). Perhaps more important, and more relevant here, is an examination on the nature of morality and sin.

First, welcome to DP.

Second, is that an original work? If so, very impressive.

Third, and to the crux of your post: Is homosexuality a sin? The Bible is clear that it is. To say that Romans 1 (or 1 Corinthians 6:9) is mistranslated is not very convincing: what exactly was mistranslated, and what should it read? And if "Paul was addressing the more deviant social leaders of the time," why would homosexual acts be wrong for them, yet acceptable for others?

Because homosexuality is a sin, I don't believe that Christians should support homosexual "marriage."

avatar4321
08-08-2009, 01:22 PM
Since when are we given the power to determine what is sinful and evil? How can we honestly look at someone and say they arent sinful and evil, when the scriptures tell us that everyone is sinful and evil. There is none good but God.

Satan's plan in this life is to decieve people from God's perfect order. Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God to create and teach His children. Why should it shock people that the adversary wants to decieve people with his imitations of that sacred institution? It's like what the Lord said about having a form of godliness but denying the power of such. It has a form to imitate the true order. But it does not provide the power. No matter how much they imitate the true order of marriage, they have no power to create life, or the power to raise them in a way to prepare them to overcome the world.

God has asked that two things be reserved to Him: The way life leaves this world, and the way life enters it. We are generally good at allowing God to determine when life leaves this world, But we are very disrespectful when it comes to our gifts of creation. We abuse our powers to procreate through misuse. We take them lightly. We use others to feel good rather than care for them as we should. Why is it we as humans take our God given abilities to create life and use them so carefulessly? It's the greatest power we have. The only power we have that will effect generations of the world. And yet we think its no big deal to carelessly use or misuse it.

It's obvious why homosexuality is wrong when you understand the plan God has for us and when you respect life. If instead of focusing on lust, pleasure, selfishness, etc. you focused on what actually helps others and the world, you would live long healthy lives of happiness.

The homosexual community has a significantly shorter life expectancy. Do you think that's just coincidence? How is it beneficial to them or to society to encourage them to shorten their lives and prevent them from contributing to the rising generation? We should completely change the definition of marriage and support unhealthy lifestyles because they are insecure with their choices?

You have to decide on your own. I am not going to tell someone something that hurts them and others is alright simply because it might hurt their feelings. I have a responsibility to myself and to them to be honest.

Noir
08-08-2009, 01:59 PM
Since when are we given the power to determine what is sinful and evil? How can we honestly look at someone and say they arent sinful and evil, when the scriptures tell us that everyone is sinful and evil. There is none good but God.

I could not of said it better myself. Who are we to say what is and is not sinful? Let's just let everyone do what they want, in this case lets gays marry, and then God can judge them come there time. Simple as pie :)

Nukeman
08-08-2009, 04:15 PM
I could not of said it better myself. Who are we to say what is and is not sinful? Let's just let everyone do what they want, in this case lets gays marry, and then God can judge them come there time. Simple as pie :)
The only problem with this train of thought is you leave a whole lot open. So if we are not to determine what is or is not a sin than who are we to condemn someone who ...... oh ....... say......

Murders
Steals
Rapes
blasphemes
covets
etc... etc...

The point Noir, is that if you follow the religious teachings you should follow ALL of them. We are not to pick and choose what we see as an "enlightened" view. I will agree if two people of the same sex want to live together that is fine with me (let God judge them)and they can have a "civil union" NO PROBLEM but don't and I repeat DON'T call it a marriage....... Marriage has been determined to be between a man and a woman. It is sacred to MANY religious people and if you disagree than you are NOT taking in account THEIR beliefs and forcing your own on them......

Noir
08-08-2009, 04:52 PM
The only problem with this train of thought is you leave a whole lot open. So if we are not to determine what is or is not a sin than who are we to condemn someone who ...... oh ....... say......

Murders
Steals
Rapes
blasphemes
covets
etc... etc...

The point Noir, is that if you follow the religious teachings you should follow ALL of them. We are not to pick and choose what we see as an "enlightened" view. I will agree if two people of the same sex want to live together that is fine with me (let God judge them)and they can have a "civil union" NO PROBLEM but don't and I repeat DON'T call it a marriage....... Marriage has been determined to be between a man and a woman. It is sacred to MANY religious people and if you disagree than you are NOT taking in account THEIR beliefs and forcing your own on them......

but if you think it's fine for gay men to have a civil union, and them let Gld judge them. But not marry i.e. Become one in the eyes of their God, who can then judge them. Makes no real sense.

Also, I know what ya mean, but I wasn't saying let's abolish all law if it has a religious base. If something is illegal then it's illegal, however gay marriage is unique as it was illegal based on what God would find acceptable. Not really sure if I'm putting this into words aswellas it is in my head, but yeah :)

Nukeman
08-08-2009, 05:05 PM
but if you think it's fine for gay men to have a civil union, and them let God judge them. But not marry i.e. Become one in the eyes of their God, who can then judge them. Makes no real sense.

Also, I know what ya mean, but I wasn't saying let's abolish all law if it has a religious base. If something is illegal then it's illegal, however gay marriage is unique as it was illegal based on what God would find acceptable. Not really sure if I'm putting this into words as well as it is in my head, but yeah :)
I know what your saying, your basically stating that it is a "victim less" crime/sin. I will agree to a point. Marriage is sacred I have been married to MY wife for 20 years. I personally do not have a problem with same sex couples that do not force their lifestyle on others just as I do not force my lifestyle on others. Marriage is the union brought through the CHURCH where religion takes place. the civil union is what happens at the county building where you sign a paper.....

You can not throw out one sin because you feel that there is no victim. We are afforded free choice by our creator and as such we can make our decisions and pay for them accordingly. Gay/lesbian couples who are brought up in a religious household are aware of this and if they choose to ignore it they will find out but remember it was their choice.....

As for them "becoming one in the eyes of God" I really don't think that will happen since God has clearly stated that it is a sin through the bible. If God were to allow this sin to pass how could he punish for any other sin??? You are basically saying God should be a Hypocrite!!???

Noir
08-08-2009, 06:21 PM
I personally do not have a problem with same sex couples that do not force their lifestyle on others just as I do not force my lifestyle on others.

But how are they forcing their lifestyle on you by getting married?

The only real difference I can see between marriage and a civil union is the inclusion of religion. If the gay couple getting married why to get married in the eyes of their God then why should you be able to say they can't?


We are afforded free choice by our creator and as such we can make our decisions and pay for them accordingly

Yes you have free choice to do whateer you want...except marry your loved one in a church...that's a decision you're not able to make. Either you have free choice or you don't. And when it is a choice that will be judged by God what's the point of stopping them getting married?


As for them "becoming one in the eyes of God" I really don't think that will happen since God has clearly stated that it is a sin through the bible

Why not let God be the judge of that? I if I memo right it was Paul that mentioned it in the NT, not god.


You are basically saying God should be a Hypocrite

I'm just saying let folk do as they please and let God judge them. And anyways he can't be a hypocrite, whatever he does is just and right. Which is part of the reason why I am not a christain.

Nukeman
08-08-2009, 07:36 PM
But how are they forcing their lifestyle on you by getting married?

The only real difference I can see between marriage and a civil union is the inclusion of religion. If the gay couple getting married why to get married in the eyes of their God then why should you be able to say they can't?



Yes you have free choice to do whateer you want...except marry your loved one in a church...that's a decision you're not able to make. Either you have free choice or you don't. And when it is a choice that will be judged by God what's the point of stopping them getting married?



Why not let God be the judge of that? I if I memo right it was Paul that mentioned it in the NT, not god.



I'm just saying let folk do as they please and let God judge them. And anyways he can't be a hypocrite, whatever he does is just and right. Which is part of the reason why I am not a christain.

To put all this into perspective YOU have to remember that GOD determined what is and is not a sin. The bible was written to bring us Gods word. As such the church is a PRIVATE company so to speak they make their own rules about how they run things that is why we have different religions. YOU are advocating that the church be FORCED to perform wedding ceremonies for people that they feel are in a sinful relationship. How can you rectify that in your mind.

Other than letting God judge and sort out you are wanting to require the church to have to go against its doctrine and marry two people that they feel, will ultimately be judged by God and as such won't the willing priest or preacher be as guilty of condoning such a relationship by performing said ceremony??

This is why I advocate "civil unions" they get the benefit of being"married" without the Church being placed in a situation where they are going against their doctrine..!!!!!!

As far as "whatever God does is just and right" you have to remember that he will always be fair and will not alter on what he has listed as sins "All sins are equal in the eye's of God" so to say one is lesser than another is to place God in a situation to be hypocritcle. God will not be, but man most certainly is.......!!!!

Dekon
08-08-2009, 10:38 PM
First, welcome to DP.

Thanks :)


Second, is that an original work? If so, very impressive.

It is, and thank you. In fairness, it did take me a long time, and I didn't just sit down and write it in one day. It was the culmination of a few months of research.


Third, and to the crux of your post: Is homosexuality a sin? The Bible is clear that it is. To say that Romans 1 (or 1 Corinthians 6:9) is mistranslated is not very convincing: what exactly was mistranslated, and what should it read? And if "Paul was addressing the more deviant social leaders of the time," why would homosexual acts be wrong for them, yet acceptable for others?

Because homosexuality is a sin, I don't believe that Christians should support homosexual "marriage."

I think I addressed this in a couple ways, but it was a bit wordy.

I think this first point is something I'm going to have to say addresses what several people have said - basically - "If the bible says it's wrong, isn't it wrong? Who says we can determine what's a sin?"

There's a lot to say here, so I think I'm going to have to begin by making a few points that seem random, and then bring them all together. The first is, as I said, g-d is not bound to a higher morality. This may sound obvious, but it invades our language all the time. We say things like 'g-d can't be with us because he's holy', or 'g-d can't do that because he's would be changing his mind'. The problem is, you can't say 'g-d can't', or g-d ceases to be g-d. Period. If g-d can't, then g-d (at least the Judeo-Christian-Muslim concept of g-d) fails instantly. Simply put, g-d can do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, however it wants.

Secondly, let's define sin here real quick. Sin is best defined as 'disobeying g-d'. Why is this important? Because it distinguishes it from morality - the latter of which is determined through g-d given reason. If g-d tells me 'You should go and talk to that person at the other table - they look lonely'.. and I don't do that.. then I've sinned. I haven't done anything morally wrong - it was not a rational requirement. What's the important about this? Well, it means g-d is living and real in our every day lives. It means g-d is moving and working within us in our society and culture.

Third - the changing g-d. I hear this a lot. G-d doesn't change its mind, so homosexuality can't be right. I think people are taking 'g-d doesn't change' out of context. The implication is that g-d is more like a computer. A set input will get a determined output. If I input 2 and 2, I will get 4. But g-d isn't a computer - and g-d obviously changes what is sinful based on the situation. How do I know this? Well, let's look at scripture.

Remember... G-d said that murder was a sin, but then commanded the Israelites to kill all the men, women, children, and babies in a nation - basically commit genocide. Only.. -only- g-d has that right. It's a concept a lot of people have difficulty with.. even I have difficulty with it. But if we accept that g-d is g-d, then we have to accept that truth. G-d can make murder justifiable. After all, I seem to recall a woman shoving a sword into the man to the hilt. In fact, I seem to remember a lot of g-d justified murder in the bible. A lot of people look at that and are horrified, and perhaps rightly so. But a friend of mine once said something interesting - "g-d was working within their culture. The cultures of the world at that time were violent, and their means of life were violent. It was a violent world, and g-d, who had given people free will, was simply working with the people and the culture'. It doesn't make it feel significantly better, but it makes it reasonable. And as far as this conversation is concerned, it shows that g-d works within cultures.

Fourth, and a point that I've been putting off, concerns Paul. I understand I may take strong flak for this point, though I have been surprised at having conservatives and liberals alike agree with me in this in the past. Understand that while I find Paul an incredibly wise and spiritual man - whose words should be studied and taken to heart - is still human. He himself said that he was still stumbling in the dark. Paul was still a normal human being working within a human culture, and his words need to be taken in the context of the culture they were in. Paul never meant for his letters to be put into a collected works - we certainly are glad they were, as they are very wise and knowledgeable words. But they are still the words of a normal human being living in a culture that g-d was working with at the time. It was a different culture than the Israelites of the past, which explains why g-d was working with it differently. Many secularists point at the old testament, then at the new, and say 'How are these the same g-d!?', and the reply is quite simply 'It is the same g-d - it is a different world'. And it is quite a different world now, and g-d will work with our culture as it is. A great example of this is when Paul tells the women of Corinth to not teach, not wear jewelry, cover their heads, and not wear fancy clothing. Without understanding the historical context, we can be very restrictive with women. However, if you understand that Corinth was a city heavily divided by rich and poor, and that rich Christians were dressing in such a manner as to put down and degrade poor Christians, we understand why Paul said. Similarly, if you understand women in Jewish culture, you understand why Paul told them not to preach. They were untrained in the Torah, and they did not understand Christ fully. They had begun preaching, and it was causing difficulty - Paul told them to stop. It didn't mean women could never be preachers and leaders - Paul wasn't making a statement for all time. Paul was addressing a specific situation in a specific time in a specific place - not a statement for all time. This sort of knowledge is important when reading scripture, and it is important to know how and why g-d deals with the Israelite culture throughout history, and how it might deal with us today.

So here is the crux - We have a g-d who is very stable and unchanging in some fashions, but obviously, according to scripture, can and does change what sin is. And since disobeying g-d is the definition of sin, and g-d is not bound to a higher morality, this makes perfect sense. G-d can do whatever it pleases, and command whatever it pleases of any. Simply taking the next step, this means that g-d may allow whatever it pleases. Homosexuality may indeed be a sin for one, but not for another - simply because g-d can command one to not be, and allow another to be.

On the secular note - if it is a sin, it does not apply to the secular community because it is not -morally- wrong. I do distinguish between sin and morality, and I -think- I explained myself clearly as to why I believe that. If this needs more explanation, say so. Therefore, because it is not rationally, and therefore morally, wrong, it cannot be shoved upon secular society. At all.


No matter how much they imitate the true order of marriage, they have no power to create life, or the power to raise them in a way to prepare them to overcome the world.

I addressed this. I have found no evidence in scripture supporting the idea that marriage exists for procreation, and actually found that the exact opposite exists - marriage in scripture seems to be about love between two beings. The same seems true in modern society. But as I said, I gave this statement a huge rebuttal. I'm not saying I am therefore 'right', but in order to have a debate on the issue, you will need to rationally counter my points, and not simply restate the viewpoint. Otherwise I will simply point back to what I have said and say, as I have said, 'I have addressed this.'


and the way life enters it.

Sorry.. where? I'm generally pro-life, so I see how this statement applies to abortion, but it doesn't seem to apply to homosexuality at all - unless we get back to the above issue, where the sole purpose of marriage and sex is to create life - which I've still disagreed with. Well, let me clarify - I haven't explained sex - except to say that if a man and a woman cannot physically have children due to biological problems, should they not have sex? If the sacred duty of sex is purely for children and not at all for intimacy, emotional bonding, sharing of love, and yes, even pleasure, then you would also have to restrict the act purely for couples who can have children, and only for when they are creating children. If you accept the premise that sex has a function outside procreation, than you accept that it and marriage need not apply to g-d's right to 'control how life enters the world', if the bible does indeed imply such a thing.


If instead of focusing on lust, pleasure, selfishness, etc. you focused on what actually helps others and the world, you would live long healthy lives of happiness.

This is a logical fallacy. Either A or B. Either marriage, and thus sex, is about lust, pleasure, and selfishness, or it is between a man and a woman (another logical fallacy, as those are not two comparable traits), and is about procreation.

As I've said, I think sex's place in marriage is not about procreation, but about intimacy, emotional bonding, and a sharing of each other. I think it is the union of two people into one. But again, this leads back to what I've said in my original post about the purpose of marriage.

Think I'm going to stop there. I think the rest of the conversation has more been between two people that I don't feel I have the place to interrupt right now, and I think if I did, I would be taking the conversation in a very different direction than where they're going with it.

Love you all,
-Bryan

namvet
08-09-2009, 06:10 AM
But how are they forcing their lifestyle on you by getting married?


they are not forcing their lifestyle on me by having a relationship....but seeking marriage is seeking acceptance of that relationship by society.....they are seeking the community to say that their relationship is the equivalent of that between a man and a woman.....that is when they begin forcing.....




Third - the changing g-d. I hear this a lot. G-d doesn't change its mind, so homosexuality can't be right. I think people are taking 'g-d doesn't change' out of context. The implication is that g-d is more like a computer. A set input will get a determined output. If I input 2 and 2, I will get 4. But g-d isn't a computer - and g-d obviously changes what is sinful based on the situation. How do I know this? Well, let's look at scripture.


from what in scripture do you conclude that God has changed his mind regarding homosexual activity?......

Noir
08-09-2009, 06:37 AM
they are not forcing their lifestyle on me by having a relationship....but seeking marriage is seeking acceptance of that relationship by society

but surly civil parterships are accepted by society, so by two men or women taking out a civil partnerships they are having their relationship accepted. The only group denying the marriage are those who are making a judgement on Gods behalf because it (along with many other things) was seen as wrong in a book written 2000 years ago.

Dekon
08-09-2009, 08:06 AM
from what in scripture do you conclude that God has changed his mind regarding homosexual activity?......

Bah.. You're going to have me late to church, and I'm playing guitar, but this won't leave my mind...

So I guess I'm not being clear. I believe in a living g-d who can communicate with people on an individual level -as well- as through scripture, but at times the individual level can trump scripture. It can be written that something is wrong, but through prayer, a homosexual couple can be told that it is acceptable.

What support do I have for this? Well, I touched on this example, but let me explain it more deeply. In scripture, g-d spoke to Moses and gave him the ten commandments. Included is the command 'Thou shalt not kill' (or murder. It's actually not important for this conversation). And yet just a couple generations later (not many, actually, considering this happened just shortly after entering the promised land) the bible says that the Israelites are commanded to attack a race and kill all the men, women, children, and babies. As well as all the livestock, buildings, and items, but who cares about that, really? :p. So you might be able to say 'Well, the men and women were evil'. You might be able to say 'Well, the culture was so evil that the four year olds raised in that culture are already doomed'. But you cannot tell me that a -baby- is beyond raising differently. So here you have g-d saying 'Do not kill/murder'. And then you have g-d saying 'Go butcher babies'.

Let me make a side note real quick : To any atheist, secularist, or really anyone who is ready to go 'See, your g-d sucks and is totally a lie!' based upon this, I'd be happy to really discuss how a g-d can do this and remain 'good'. It's not an an easy answer, and I don't claim absolute knowledge on the answer, but I'm not going to address it much here because it's not the point.

Anyway, you basically have very few options at this point. Now one option you can take is one I hinted at in the last post, but I think I chickened out from it. So let me state it clearly - Parts of the bible could quite simply be wrong. I hinted at this by pointing at Paul and saying 'He admits himself he is just human and is walking in the dark, and he was just writing letters to other churches. Who's to say he didn't make a mistake?'. And one of my most passionate Christian friends and mentors actually told me that he doesn't believe the bible to be infallible, and that some of its writers could have been in error. And actually many other of my Christian friends agreed that this is possible.

Now if I believe this (which I only believe it possible), why didn't I just say in my first post 'I think Paul was wrong,' instead of posting an 11 page massive...thing? Because that's all I could say. All I could say is 'I think'. I'd have no support, no real and concrete reasoning besides some abstract thought. It would have been a baseless statement, and even though a lot of people in verbal and online disagreements in the past seem to think 'I think' is a perfectly logical and completely valid argument, I do not. If I'm going to actually debate, I had better well had some explained reasoning.

This is still important because it means the Israelites -could- have been wrong. And oh would this be nice - if when people ask me about these verses, I could just reply with 'Well, they were wrong'.

The thing is - I can't. I have no support for that. I would be pulling it out of the dark. So instead, I have to presume that g-d actually commanded this. I have to presume that g-d actually said 'Don't kill', and then said 'Go kill all those babies!'.

I'm assuming you know the verses I can talk about - Otherwise I can find them later. Playing guitar this morning and I'm already late now.

The point is - obviously g-d can inscribe himself something on a stone tablet, and then command exactly the opposite. Holy scriptures don't get much more holy than the actual ten commandments, and yet he commands against it.

So why can't the same happen with homosexuals?

-Cp
08-09-2009, 01:21 PM
Bah.. You're going to have me late to church, and I'm playing guitar, but this won't leave my mind...

So I guess I'm not being clear. I believe in a living g-d who can communicate with people on an individual level -as well- as through scripture, but at times the individual level can trump scripture. It can be written that something is wrong, but through prayer, a homosexual couple can be told that it is acceptable.

What support do I have for this? Well, I touched on this example, but let me explain it more deeply. In scripture, g-d spoke to Moses and gave him the ten commandments. Included is the command 'Thou shalt not kill' (or murder. It's actually not important for this conversation). And yet just a couple generations later (not many, actually, considering this happened just shortly after entering the promised land) the bible says that the Israelites are commanded to attack a race and kill all the men, women, children, and babies. As well as all the livestock, buildings, and items, but who cares about that, really? :p. So you might be able to say 'Well, the men and women were evil'. You might be able to say 'Well, the culture was so evil that the four year olds raised in that culture are already doomed'. But you cannot tell me that a -baby- is beyond raising differently. So here you have g-d saying 'Do not kill/murder'. And then you have g-d saying 'Go butcher babies'.

Let me make a side note real quick : To any atheist, secularist, or really anyone who is ready to go 'See, your g-d sucks and is totally a lie!' based upon this, I'd be happy to really discuss how a g-d can do this and remain 'good'. It's not an an easy answer, and I don't claim absolute knowledge on the answer, but I'm not going to address it much here because it's not the point.

Anyway, you basically have very few options at this point. Now one option you can take is one I hinted at in the last post, but I think I chickened out from it. So let me state it clearly - Parts of the bible could quite simply be wrong. I hinted at this by pointing at Paul and saying 'He admits himself he is just human and is walking in the dark, and he was just writing letters to other churches. Who's to say he didn't make a mistake?'. And one of my most passionate Christian friends and mentors actually told me that he doesn't believe the bible to be infallible, and that some of its writers could have been in error. And actually many other of my Christian friends agreed that this is possible.



Here-in lies your problem - the Commandments instructed us not to "murder" - God having his people (the Jews) go in and fight is NOT the same at all as "murdering".. .

The motive behind killing and murdering is very different... .By your definition, whenever a soldier eliminates his/her target they are in fact murdering.. .

Dekon
08-09-2009, 02:45 PM
Here-in lies your problem - the Commandments instructed us not to "murder" - God having his people (the Jews) go in and fight is NOT the same at all as "murdering".. .

The motive behind killing and murdering is very different... .By your definition, whenever a soldier eliminates his/her target they are in fact murdering.. .

Actually no - that's not a problem here. I said it could be defined as either - murder or killing - because this involving babies.

Saying 'Hey Israelites - go to this land and conquer enemies' or 'Hey Israelites - defend yourself' is different than saying 'Hey Israelites, go butcher children and babies'.

According to scripture, g-d isn't just telling the Jewish people to conquer another country - he tells them to annihilate. Absolute genocide, down to the infants. That is murder - flat out. I understand your point, but what if we told our soldiers to kill Afghan infants? I'm pretty sure we would call that murder.

-Cp
08-09-2009, 03:37 PM
Actually no - that's not a problem here. I said it could be defined as either - murder or killing - because this involving babies.

Saying 'Hey Israelites - go to this land and conquer enemies' or 'Hey Israelites - defend yourself' is different than saying 'Hey Israelites, go butcher children and babies'.

According to scripture, g-d isn't just telling the Jewish people to conquer another country - he tells them to annihilate. Absolute genocide, down to the infants. That is murder - flat out. I understand your point, but what if we told our soldiers to kill Afghan infants? I'm pretty sure we would call that murder.

It wan't murder - you don't understand the full context of what was going on in those OT passages... It was important that the Jews wipe out ALL their enemies - if they didn't kill the babies, then those babies would grow up to kill them.

It was preemptive self-defense..

PostmodernProphet
08-09-2009, 07:48 PM
Bah.. You're going to have me late to church, and I'm playing guitar, but this won't leave my mind...

So I guess I'm not being clear. I believe in a living g-d who can communicate with people on an individual level -as well- as through scripture, but at times the individual level can trump scripture. It can be written that something is wrong, but through prayer, a homosexual couple can be told that it is acceptable.

What support do I have for this? Well, I touched on this example, but let me explain it more deeply. In scripture, g-d spoke to Moses and gave him the ten commandments. Included is the command 'Thou shalt not kill' (or murder. It's actually not important for this conversation). And yet just a couple generations later (not many, actually, considering this happened just shortly after entering the promised land) the bible says that the Israelites are commanded to attack a race and kill all the men, women, children, and babies. As well as all the livestock, buildings, and items, but who cares about that, really? :p. So you might be able to say 'Well, the men and women were evil'. You might be able to say 'Well, the culture was so evil that the four year olds raised in that culture are already doomed'. But you cannot tell me that a -baby- is beyond raising differently. So here you have g-d saying 'Do not kill/murder'. And then you have g-d saying 'Go butcher babies'.

Let me make a side note real quick : To any atheist, secularist, or really anyone who is ready to go 'See, your g-d sucks and is totally a lie!' based upon this, I'd be happy to really discuss how a g-d can do this and remain 'good'. It's not an an easy answer, and I don't claim absolute knowledge on the answer, but I'm not going to address it much here because it's not the point.

Anyway, you basically have very few options at this point. Now one option you can take is one I hinted at in the last post, but I think I chickened out from it. So let me state it clearly - Parts of the bible could quite simply be wrong. I hinted at this by pointing at Paul and saying 'He admits himself he is just human and is walking in the dark, and he was just writing letters to other churches. Who's to say he didn't make a mistake?'. And one of my most passionate Christian friends and mentors actually told me that he doesn't believe the bible to be infallible, and that some of its writers could have been in error. And actually many other of my Christian friends agreed that this is possible.

Now if I believe this (which I only believe it possible), why didn't I just say in my first post 'I think Paul was wrong,' instead of posting an 11 page massive...thing? Because that's all I could say. All I could say is 'I think'. I'd have no support, no real and concrete reasoning besides some abstract thought. It would have been a baseless statement, and even though a lot of people in verbal and online disagreements in the past seem to think 'I think' is a perfectly logical and completely valid argument, I do not. If I'm going to actually debate, I had better well had some explained reasoning.

This is still important because it means the Israelites -could- have been wrong. And oh would this be nice - if when people ask me about these verses, I could just reply with 'Well, they were wrong'.

The thing is - I can't. I have no support for that. I would be pulling it out of the dark. So instead, I have to presume that g-d actually commanded this. I have to presume that g-d actually said 'Don't kill', and then said 'Go kill all those babies!'.

I'm assuming you know the verses I can talk about - Otherwise I can find them later. Playing guitar this morning and I'm already late now.

The point is - obviously g-d can inscribe himself something on a stone tablet, and then command exactly the opposite. Holy scriptures don't get much more holy than the actual ten commandments, and yet he commands against it.

So why can't the same happen with homosexuals?


I see a couple of things wrong with your analysis...

first, you say "But you cannot tell me that a -baby- is beyond raising differently"....your right, I can't tell you that....but then I'm not the one issuing the order....God was, and he COULD tell you that.....as you probably recall, the tribes that God ordered killed were the tribes that worshiped Baal and particularly Molech...Molech was the god that was worshiped by placing the first born son in the arms of a hollow metal idol in which a fire was built...then they would watch the child burn to death.....Baal was problematic for the kingdom of Israel throughout it's history....remember Queen Jezebel for example.....their tendency to drift to the worship of Baal finally resulted in Israel going into captivity.....so yes, God could easily have known that the babies of that tribe were beyond raising differently....

second, you say that God can give us laws individually, but the example you give is one of God giving orders to a whole nation, publically......I can sense a distinction between a God who's been visibly leading a nation across the wilderness ever since you were born as a pillar of fire telling you as a people to do something, and God, whispering to you in the back of your mind, "it's okay! You can have sex with your buddy, Dave!".....

can you actually give an example of God telling an individual that it was okay to do something he set forth as a sin?......

PostmodernProphet
08-09-2009, 07:52 PM
According to scripture, g-d isn't just telling the Jewish people to conquer another country - he tells them to annihilate. Absolute genocide, down to the infants.

I think this is going to go down as one of those things someone misunderstands about the scriptures.....God issued the order you are speaking about with respect to the Midianites.....now if it were truly "absolute genocide", how is it that less than a hundred years later, Gideon had to go to battle against an army of 120,000 Midianites?.....were they just very prolific or are you misunderstanding the orders of God?....

glockmail
08-09-2009, 08:06 PM
Its not a deep topic at all. Poke a man up the ass and you go to hell. *shrug*

gabosaurus
08-09-2009, 09:02 PM
The Bible is also strong on the "one man, one woman" concept. You get married forever.
So why isn't remarriage as bad of a sin as homosexuality?

PostmodernProphet
08-09-2009, 09:36 PM
The Bible is also strong on the "one man, one woman" concept. You get married forever.
So why isn't remarriage as bad of a sin as homosexuality?

it may well be....though in our church we distinguish between the party responsible for the breakdown of the marriage and an innocent party....a man who leaves his wife to marry his secretary would not be permitted to have a church ceremony, but if the wife remarried she would.....

also, women who are victims of abuse are treated differently......

Mr. P
08-09-2009, 11:31 PM
it may well be....though in our church we distinguish between the party responsible for the breakdown of the marriage and an innocent party....a man who leaves his wife to marry his secretary would not be permitted to have a church ceremony, but if the wife remarried she would.....

also, women who are victims of abuse are treated differently......

What if he divorced her because she was a druggie? Which would your church remarry?

Noir
08-10-2009, 12:49 AM
Here-in lies your problem - the Commandments instructed us not to "murder" - God having his people (the Jews) go in and fight is NOT the same at all as "murdering".. .

The motive behind killing and murdering is very different... .By your definition, whenever a soldier eliminates his/her target they are in fact murdering.. .

It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
~Voltaire.

glockmail
08-10-2009, 06:36 AM
The Bible is also strong on the "one man, one woman" concept. You get married forever.
So why isn't remarriage as bad of a sin as homosexuality? Who says it ain't?

PostmodernProphet
08-10-2009, 08:18 AM
What if he divorced her because she was a druggie? Which would your church remarry?

they would permit remarriage if the reason for the divorce was an addiction that she refused to deal with....

darin
08-10-2009, 08:24 AM
The Bible is also strong on the "one man, one woman" concept. You get married forever.
So why isn't remarriage as bad of a sin as homosexuality?

because divorce isn't 'sin'. Adultery, however, is. I don't believe God grades sin, however.

Mr. P
08-10-2009, 09:18 AM
they would permit remarriage if the reason for the divorce was an addiction that she refused to deal with....

Kinda blows that "in sickness and health...till death do us part" doesn't it.

crin63
08-10-2009, 09:41 AM
Isn't the divorce issue kind of derailing this thread? Shouldn't it be moved to get back on topic?

Dekon
08-10-2009, 09:51 AM
I see a couple of things wrong with your analysis...

first, you say "But you cannot tell me that a -baby- is beyond raising differently"....your right, I can't tell you that....but then I'm not the one issuing the order....God was, and he COULD tell you that.....as you probably recall, the tribes that God ordered killed were the tribes that worshiped Baal and particularly Molech...Molech was the god that was worshiped by placing the first born son in the arms of a hollow metal idol in which a fire was built...then they would watch the child burn to death.....Baal was problematic for the kingdom of Israel throughout it's history....remember Queen Jezebel for example.....their tendency to drift to the worship of Baal finally resulted in Israel going into captivity.....so yes, God could easily have known that the babies of that tribe were beyond raising differently....

second, you say that God can give us laws individually, but the example you give is one of God giving orders to a whole nation, publically......I can sense a distinction between a God who's been visibly leading a nation across the wilderness ever since you were born as a pillar of fire telling you as a people to do something, and God, whispering to you in the back of your mind, "it's okay! You can have sex with your buddy, Dave!".....

can you actually give an example of God telling an individual that it was okay to do something he set forth as a sin?......

And...


It wan't murder - you don't understand the full context of what was going on in those OT passages... It was important that the Jews wipe out ALL their enemies - if they didn't kill the babies, then those babies would grow up to kill them.

It was preemptive self-defense..

To both your first point and CP's point...

I think we may be coming to a wall here, since I think our definitions of murder must be different. I'm willing to accept that killing is acceptable when there is a direct and immediate threat to life. However, it just feels here that the definition of the word 'murder' is being shrunk while 'kill' is being expanded, just to be able to make a point.

Is it not reasonable to assume that many Afghan children and even infants may grow up hating the US, and therefore are likely future threats? Why not just kill them? Wouldn't that be murder?

Of course, though, that would be a human decision - g-d was the one who told the Israelites to kill those children and infants. However, saying this does not change the definition of murder. It's still murder - it's just that g-d has allowed it. If g-d said "Hey - nobody pick up rocks!", then found some guy named George and said "Hey George - Pick up rocks!".. The rocks are still rocks. You can't get around it by saying 'Well.. they're not rocks now'.

And let me take a break to say that, as a Christian, I do believe what the Israelites did was justified and right. It's still hard to accept, but I do. However, I'm still going to call an apple an apple, and an orange an orange. To say - 'g-d didn't violate his commandment because it was he who said to do it' is circular, and therefore irrational. Murder is murder regardless of who commands it. It doesn't mean it's not justified, but it's still murder.

To your second point :

I don't entirely see how this argument holds up. If you want a quick example, the woman who shoved the sword into and buried the hilt in him. I honestly can't remember her name, and don't have time to look it up - I do know it wasn't in a combat situation :p.

However, it's irrelevant. If you will agree with me that our g-d is a living and relational being that communicates with us directly and personally, then this doesn't change anything at all. In fact, isn't it reasonable that if you had a friend who spoke before a group of friends, or spoke to you personally, the latter would be a more significant conversation? Because it was personal?

I mean, you almost seem to be suggesting that g-d communicating with us is an absurdity with the line 'g-d whispering in the back of your mind.'

I think g-d does communicate with individuals, and I have -no- right to tell someone that g-d has not communicated with them. If I work somewhere where we have a boss who is known as the 'no vacation' boss, and one of the workers comes up to me and says 'I'm taking a vacation - the boss said I should' - I can be surprised, I can ask 'Are you sure?', but I can't actually tell that person that 'No he didn't. You're wrong. He didn't say that.' That would be silly of me - I'm not g-d.

Again, I think g-d was working within the Hebrew culture to bring about what he wanted. They couldn't eat pork, they couldn't even touch a woman during her '7 days'. There were all sorts of rules that were meant to bring about a culture and a people g-d wanted to create. Was g-d a hypocrite when he abolished those rules? No, it was just no longer necessary. G-d didn't change - we did. And we've changed since then.

If I have a kid, and I tell him 'Don't go in my computer room - ever'. And then years later, I start allowing him in the computer room - It isn't because I changed - it's because he's changed. He's older, or he's behaving better, or he's not such a clutz now. Whatever the reason, I am now allowing him to do something he previously was not allowed because the conditions surrounding -him- changed.


I think this is going to go down as one of those things someone misunderstands about the scriptures.....God issued the order you are speaking about with respect to the Midianites.....now if it were truly "absolute genocide", how is it that less than a hundred years later, Gideon had to go to battle against an army of 120,000 Midianites?.....were they just very prolific or are you misunderstanding the orders of God?....

I could be wrong? It doesn't really affect my points.

To my recollection, though, the Jewish people never followed through and actually killed everyone. They just said 'Well, that's enough'. So it's not unreasonable to presume the Midianites survived.

Maybe I'm wrong - I'll read it later, but it's not a necessary piece of this conversation. If I'm wrong, thank you for correcting me.


Its not a deep topic at all. Poke a man up the ass and you go to hell. *shrug*

Alright.. I try and be pretty respectful and polite in debate, but I'm going to have to say :

This was an incredibly worthless and entirely silly statement.

First of all, just from a debate perspective - You didn't actually say anything. You didn't make any points, you have no evidence, there's no rational support. It's just an inane and unsupported statement.

Secondly... Let's go ahead and presuppose that homosexuality -is- a sin.

Are you free of sin? Have you done no wrong? Not only have you never lied, cheated, stole, looked upon a woman lustfully, but do you also give a massive amount of your time and wealth to the poor and needy? Do you clothe children and the homeless? Do you spend time with people in jail? Are you perfect?

Isn't the whole point of Christianity that we're all messed up and 'going to hell', except for the undeserved and unearned grace we were given freely?

Honestly, and forgive my bluntless, but who the hell are you to determine who 'goes to hell' and who doesn't? Who died and made you god of all creation?

Is homosexuality -worse- than any sin you've committed? I was under the impression that sin was sin, but even if it wasn't, at least homosexuality has no rational moral wrong - it doesn't hurt anyone, except perhaps the overall dating pool a bit. -IF- some sins were worse than others, homosexuality has to be the 'least worse' of them all.


Of all the silly things to say....

avatar4321
08-10-2009, 12:36 PM
The Bible is also strong on the "one man, one woman" concept. You get married forever.
So why isn't remarriage as bad of a sin as homosexuality?

Is it really? Then where did the 12 tribes of Israel come from?

And divorce is considered a sin.

PostmodernProphet
08-10-2009, 12:51 PM
To say - 'g-d didn't violate his commandment because it was he who said to do it' is circular, and therefore irrational. Murder is murder regardless of who commands it. It doesn't mean it's not justified, but it's still murder.


to be honest, I see your position as irrational....basically, you are attempting to substitute your morality for God's, you are judging him to be a murderer....that is something the created lacks the capacity to with respect to the Creator....



I mean, you almost seem to be suggesting that g-d communicating with us is an absurdity with the line 'g-d whispering in the back of your mind.'
I would consider the suggestion that God gives a different set of moral rules to one individual than he does to the rest of society to be an absurdity, yes.....in my mind it would rank closely with a person who says "God told me I had to kill that abortionist"....


I think g-d does communicate with individuals, and I have -no- right to tell someone that g-d has not communicated with them.
perhaps, but I certainly have no obligation to believe it's true.....and I certainly wouldn't excuse the guy who murdered the abortionist or the person who says homosexual relations are okay, on the basis of the claim....

PostmodernProphet
08-10-2009, 12:55 PM
Murder is murder regardless of who commands it.

how far do you carry that?.....you have said you are pro-life.....is abortion murder, even though the law permits it?.......is capital punishment murder, even though the law requires it?......if you run a stop sign and another driver hits and kills you, has he murdered you even though the law says he hasn't?......

-Cp
08-10-2009, 01:06 PM
Secondly... Let's go ahead and presuppose that homosexuality -is- a sin.

Are you free of sin? Have you done no wrong? Not only have you never lied, cheated, stole, looked upon a woman lustfully, but do you also give a massive amount of your time and wealth to the poor and needy? Do you clothe children and the homeless? Do you spend time with people in jail? Are you perfect?

Isn't the whole point of Christianity that we're all messed up and 'going to hell', except for the undeserved and unearned grace we were given freely?


I TOTALLY agree with the above - you had me all the way till you started showing your outright support of homosexuality below...:(




Honestly, and forgive my bluntless, but who the hell are you to determine who 'goes to hell' and who doesn't? Who died and made you god of all creation?


I agree somewhat statement:

- Nobody here claimed to be God
- Secondly, there is no such a place called "hell"
- Lots of "christians" use the hell tactic in a pious sort of way

But this is where you lose me:



Is homosexuality -worse- than any sin you've committed? I was under the impression that sin was sin, but even if it wasn't, at least homosexuality has no rational moral wrong - it doesn't hurt anyone, except perhaps the overall dating pool a bit. -IF- some sins were worse than others, homosexuality has to be the 'least worse' of them all.

- It's not being truly objective to say being a homo hurts nobody
- It is HIGHLY MORALLY wrong
- No such a thing as "worse" sins in God's eyes, however, some of the sins we commit do in fact have greater tangible consequences than others. For example;

- If I lie by telling my kids there is such a thing as Santa - the worse that would likely happen is they'd be pissed that I lied to them and perhaps be untrusting of me.
- If I rob a bank, I'll likely spend time in prison
- If I murder someone, I could likely be put to death

So, we as a society do have a sin barometer that we have locked up with the laws we establish to govern ourselves. God, however, has no such scale - in fact Paul tells us in Romans that his grace is sufficient for all of us.

emmett
08-10-2009, 04:37 PM
Dekon.

Your original post is indeed long and repeats basically the same thing. You think homosexuality is Ok. Fine. Unfortunately you go on to attempt to convince others that it is Ok. That is where I have a problem with your opinion.

No one died and appointed anyone God. Having a dissenting opinion from yours would not mean this. The bible is very clear that homosexuality is wrong. A believer who echoes this now is not of a mindset that he / she has been appointed anything. Now one could turn that around and say to you, who died and appointed you with the ability to say it isn't wrong if you are a believing Christian you should believe it all, not just what you hand pick to believe.


Again...welcome to DP.

Dekon
08-10-2009, 07:24 PM
Dekon.

Your original post is indeed long and repeats basically the same thing. You think homosexuality is Ok. Fine. Unfortunately you go on to attempt to convince others that it is Ok. That is where I have a problem with your opinion.

No one died and appointed anyone God. Having a dissenting opinion from yours would not mean this. The bible is very clear that homosexuality is wrong. A believer who echoes this now is not of a mindset that he / she has been appointed anything. Now one could turn that around and say to you, who died and appointed you with the ability to say it isn't wrong if you are a believing Christian you should believe it all, not just what you hand pick to believe.


Again...welcome to DP.


I want to address this quick - and I speak to -CP on this as well, since he replied to the particulars of the post being replied to here.

I'll get to postmodern prophets stuff in a bit (maybe after I've relaxed and for an hour or so, or maybe tomorrow. We'll see). However, I want to nip this in the butt -now-

The post you, Emmet, and -CP are replying to is a -very- specific post. That's why I quoted it, and if I remember this morning (it must have been altered..) I even made it it's own post by itself.

The post you two are replying to is replying to -glockmail-, who said the following:


Its not a deep topic at all. Poke a man up the ass and you go to hell. *shrug*

The post I made that you (Emmet) and -CP are replying to was in reply to the above line, and only the above line. No further explanation or rationalization was given. I was very harsh and criticizing in response to that single line post because, not only is it presumputious, crude, and declares the eternal salvation of another person (which only g-d has the right to do), but it is also, having been said by itself with no supporting evidence or reasoning, an entirely worthless statement.

I understand that post was severe - it was meant to be, and it wasn't directed at everyone - it was directed at a single individual for a statement I found to be rather ludicrous.

More later.

PostmodernProphet
08-10-2009, 09:10 PM
(it must have been altered..)

not to worry, you won't find anyone doing that here....

-Cp
08-10-2009, 09:43 PM
However, I want to nip this in the butt -now-


I'm sure that's not the only thing you want to do to the butt... just sayin....

Dekon
08-10-2009, 10:12 PM
I'm sure that's not the only thing you want to do to the butt... just sayin....

*blink* For the record - I'm straight.

gabosaurus
08-10-2009, 10:17 PM
*blink* For the record - I'm straight.

You're talking to the hand Dekon. If you support gay rights here, you are gay.

-Cp
08-10-2009, 10:47 PM
*blink* For the record - I'm straight.

Of course ya are....

Noir
08-11-2009, 08:39 AM
Of course ya are....

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

So you're telling him what sexuality he is now, gawd, ignorence on this website knows no bounds.

glockmail
08-12-2009, 04:16 PM
Alright.. I try and be pretty respectful and polite in debate, but I'm going to have to say :

This was an incredibly worthless and entirely silly statement.

First of all, just from a debate perspective - You didn't actually say anything. You didn't make any points, you have no evidence, there's no rational support. It's just an inane and unsupported statement.

Secondly... Let's go ahead and presuppose that homosexuality -is- a sin.

Are you free of sin? Have you done no wrong? Not only have you never lied, cheated, stole, looked upon a woman lustfully, but do you also give a massive amount of your time and wealth to the poor and needy? Do you clothe children and the homeless? Do you spend time with people in jail? Are you perfect?

Isn't the whole point of Christianity that we're all messed up and 'going to hell', except for the undeserved and unearned grace we were given freely?

Honestly, and forgive my bluntless, but who the hell are you to determine who 'goes to hell' and who doesn't? Who died and made you god of all creation?

Is homosexuality -worse- than any sin you've committed? I was under the impression that sin was sin, but even if it wasn't, at least homosexuality has no rational moral wrong - it doesn't hurt anyone, except perhaps the overall dating pool a bit. -IF- some sins were worse than others, homosexuality has to be the 'least worse' of them all.


Of all the silly things to say....
It’s not silly at all, but a plain and simple fact. The Bible defines sin, not you or I or society, and it is very clear that homosexuality is a grave and awful sin. Much worse than the example that you gave in support of your argument that sin isn’t important.

How do I know this? Here’s as good a summary as I’ve found, and it starts with the creation of mankind.
Genesis 1:26, 27 says, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.”
The foundational rule was everything reproducing “after his kind.” Nowhere was there a suggestion of any variance in this rule. Homosexuals do not reproduce. They kill the whole reproductive process.
Following the fall of Adam and Eve, and their removal from the Garden of Eden, Satan began perverting the purposes of God in the human race. The very first reference to a homosexual act in Scripture occurs when Ham, the son of Noah, went into his father’s tent while Noah was in a drunken stupor, and “saw the nakedness of his father.” (see Genesis 9:22)
While somewhat euphemistic, this phrase is a Hebrew metaphor which literally means to engage in illicit sex with. The phrase appears other places in Scripture, but this incidence is quite telling.
Verse 24 of the same chapter says, “And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.”
This was not a case of Ham simply stumbling into his father’s tent and accidentally finding him naked. His act toward his father had lifetime consequences that extended to every generation that came forth from his loins.
Since Ham already had a son, Canaan, Noah could not cut off the seed coming forth from his son, so he said, “Cursed be Canaan: a servant of servants shall he be to his brethren.” (verse 25)
The further consequence of Ham’s sin of homosexuality is illustrated in the fact that the seven sons of Canaan each fathered tribes that became nations occupying all of what generally became known as the land of Canaan. Those seven nations were identified as the Hittites, the Jebusites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, and the Canaanites. The curse of Noah upon Ham’s seed was, in reality, God’s curse; and in Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, the Lord says to Moses, “When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whiter thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them: thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them; Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son……”
God wasn’t playing games with this sin! He was out to wipe it from the face of the earth. It is a unique irony that ancient Israel, under the leadership of Joshua and his successors, failed to keep God’s commandment. The modern-day Palestinians, Jordanians, Iraqis and Iranians are descendants of these seven nations. Because Israel did not execute God’s judgment 3500 years ago, they are today plagued with peoples in the surrounding regions that are dedicated to their extermination. -- Regner A. Capener

I don’t determine who goes to Hell. I’m just telling them that the dirt road leads there.