Pope Stops Short Of Endorsing "Intelligent Design". Science asks, "OK?"

[Psychoblues]

Please get to the point, I ask.


“BERLIN, Germany (AP) -- Benedict XVI, in his first extended reflections on evolution published as pope, says that Darwin's theory cannot be finally proven and that science has unnecessarily narrowed humanity's view of creation.

In a new book, "Creation and Evolution," published Wednesday in German, the pope praised progress gained by science, but cautioned that evolution raises philosophical questions science alone cannot answer.

"The question is not to either make a decision for a creationism that fundamentally excludes science, or for an evolutionary theory that covers over its own gaps and does not want to see the questions that reach beyond the methodological possibilities of natural science," the pope said.

He stopped short of endorsing intelligent design, but said scientific and philosophical reason must work together in a way that does not exclude faith.”

Tippytoeing around the subject ain’t getting anything done. So far, the Pope has not responded.

[Samantha]

Sounds like a smart Pope. He wants people to keep learning, keep trying to find out the meaning of life, keep searching.

How is that wrong?

[loosecannon]

Sounds like a smart Pope. He wants people to keep learning, keep trying to find out the meaning of life, keep searching.

How is that wrong?


Agreed. Science IS a faith based religion of it's own kind. Most of it either hasn't been or can't be proven.

But rational minds also tend to realize that the idea of creation from a void based on invisible powers is sorta whacko.

I actually believe in creation, but not from the POV of a omnipotent god who just "made" everything outta thin air. That is just hokey.

[Nuc]

Agreed. Science IS a faith based religion of it's own kind. Most of it either hasn't been or can't be proven.

This gets the prize for most idiotic statement of the day or maybe week, which is saying a lot. :pee: :link:

[5stringJeff]

I actually believe in creation, but not from the POV of a omnipotent god who just "made" everything outta thin air. That is just hokey.

What type of creation do you believe in, then?

[Nuc]

What type of creation do you believe in, then?

Maybe he thinks the universe is built out of Legos? Seems about par for his course.

[5stringJeff]

Maybe he thinks the universe is built out of Legos? Seems about par for his course.

Well, if God created the universe, and He didn't create ex nihilo (which is what LC is positing), then there's only two other options:

1. God created the universe out of Himself, which is pantheism.

2. God built the universe out of pre-existing material, which leads to a non-infinite God.

[Kathianne]

It takes both faith and reason. Aquinas said so how long ago?

[avatar4321]

Well, if God created the universe, and He didn't create ex nihilo (which is what LC is positing), then there's only two other options:

1. God created the universe out of Himself, which is pantheism.

2. God built the universe out of pre-existing material, which leads to a non-infinite God.

The Bible itself teaches that God used pre-existing materials. Creation Ex Nihilo was a doctrine developed several centuries.

Matter is Eternal. I don't think it's a coincidence that Christ's profession in life was that of a Carpenter.

[Psychoblues]

I mostly agree but not altogether, lc.




Agreed. Science IS a faith based religion of it's own kind. Most of it either hasn't been or can't be proven.

But rational minds also tend to realize that the idea of creation from a void based on invisible powers is sorta whacko.

I actually believe in creation, but not from the POV of a omnipotent god who just "made" everything outta thin air. That is just hokey.

I think credible science begins with faith (hypothesis) and then can demonstrate physically, mathematically and theoretically sound or unsound faith. I'll take the advise of a genuine scientist anyday over that of any self proclaimed expert in faith that generally wants my money or possessions and has nothing to offer other than promises that may or may not be kept.

I've been stung a time or two by people that I gave utmost faith in just regular business dealings. I don't put any faith in anybody that promises Heaven and then asks me for money and possessions that I don't have to solidify my sincerity in the proclamation of "faith". Those folks are just creepy to me.

[avatar4321]

I mostly agree but not altogether, lc.

I think credible science begins with faith (hypothesis) and then can demonstrate physically, mathematically and theoretically sound or unsound faith. I'll take the advise of a genuine scientist anyday over that of any self proclaimed expert in faith that generally wants my money or possessions and has nothing to offer other than promises that may or may not be kept.

I've been stung a time or two by people that I gave utmost faith in just regular business dealings. I don't put any faith in anybody that promises Heaven and then asks me for money and possessions that I don't have to solidify my sincerity in the proclamation of "faith". Those folks are just creepy to me.

Any religion that doesn't have the power to ask you to give up everything for it has no power to save you.

However, that isn't really the point I wanted to make. You seem to think faith is blind obedience. It's based on revelation from the Spirit. And Revelation comes through testing the Word of God. The process is almost exactly like science. Look at the limited evidence we have, most of which comes through the testimony of others. Create hypothesises. For example:

Three fundamental hypothesis:

1)God exists and created the world.
2)If God exists and has all power, He can communicate with His creation
3)It's possible to communicate with God and learn wisdom from Him.

These are fundamental principles taught in the scriptures. Yet, too often people just completely discount the possibility with little experimentation or accept them to a certain point and say no more.

Especially the third one. The idea that God can and will communicate and we can learn things through revelation is foreign to people to alot of religions, despite the fact that many religions are predicated on this fact. For some reason they can accept that God spoke in the past but not anymore. And they rely solely on His messages in the past for that knowledge. And while we can learn much from His past messages, our lives are different, we are entitled to our own knowledge on the matter. Our own witnesses.

That is why Christ said "Ask and ye shall receive, Seek and ye shall find, Knock and it shall be opened to you." And why the Apostle James taught "If any of ye lack wisdom, let Him ask fo God who gives to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given unto him. But ask in faith, nothing waivering."

So at this point we have a hypothesis. This is the momen wear faith must be exercised. And we need to exercise this faith. Remember, faith is more than just belief, even the devils believe, faith is an action verb it requires effort. Effort at this point is mostly just study and prayer, to test whether the Lord's testimony that we can know the truth of the doctrine is true. By doing this you begin to test the hypothesis.

By exercising faith and submitting to any other conditions the Lord has placed on learning from Him, the Lord will testify by the Spirit the truth you are seeking.

Now you've received this revelation through faith, you know that the hypothesis is true. This hasnt ended your faith because you need to seek after the Lord to learn even more. You've only planted the seed, you need to nourish it, take care of it and let it grow into a tree of everlasting life in your soul. Bearing good fruit.

See, I've gone through this process myself. I know for myself that God lives. I know that Jesus is His Son and that He rose from the grave. I've learned this through the same methods any scientist would learn his facts, through experimentation and seeking it as the Lord directed. But the beauty of it all is you don't have to take my word for it. You can find out for yourself. Everyone can.

Of course, not everyone does. Much like science. We don't always do all the same experients as others. Most of the population never does a single scientific experiment to learn the facts of science. They just accept the results others have told them.

Once you have established the principle of personal revelation, you are no longer blindly believing. You are firm, because through your faith youve gained knowledge, you begin to change your life to conform to the principles you are learning through repentence. Through repentence you gain greater knowledge, through which you learn temperance and patience, brotherly kindness, godliness, and most important of all charity. You aren't blindly following, you have learned through experimentation (and continue to learn by doing the things you continue to learn, adding more and more).

The invitation the Lord has given is open to all "Come follow me. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

[Birdzeye]

It sounds to me that the Pope has not changed the church's position on the issue of evolution/creation. I was raised Catholic and was taught that evolution and creation are not mutually exclusive (Catholics do not interpret the Bible literally), so it's possible to accept the idea that God created everything - using evolution as a means to that end.

Works for me.

[Psychoblues]

I was raised Protestant, Birdseye, but I more readily identify with those teachings of the Catholic Church as you propose than anything I have ever understood from the Protestants.



It sounds to me that the Pope has not changed the church's position on the issue of evolution/creation. I was raised Catholic and was taught that evolution and creation are not mutually exclusive (Catholics do not interpret the Bible literally), so it's possible to accept the idea that God created everything - using evolution as a means to that end.

Works for me.

Works for me as well, Birdseye!!!!!!

[gabosaurus]

"Would you like to see the Pope at the end of a rope, do you think he's a fool?"
--The great Black Sabbath

[Psychoblues]

It goes and goes and where it ends?




"Would you like to see the Pope at the end of a rope, do you think he's a fool?"
--The great Black Sabbath

Nobody knows.

[Psychoblues]

Spooky stuff, gabby.




"Would you like to see the Pope at the end of a rope, do you think he's a fool?"
--The great Black Sabbath

Can you further the thoughts and subsequent internal arguments?

[avatar4321]

Spooky stuff, gabby.





Can you further the thoughts and subsequent internal arguments?

were there internal thoughts and arguments to her statement?

[Psychoblues]

I didn't say that.




were there internal thoughts and arguments to her statement?

Just what are you trying to say?

[Lightning Waltz]

So at this point we have a hypothesis.

I think you mistake what a hypothesis is. Science doesn't presuppose based on no evidence, even when it makes a hypothesis.

A hypothesis is generated when you have some condition, based on evidence, and you come up with how that condition could possibly exist (or why it exists in the manner in which it does).

What you are suggesting is that we suppose that there could be a "god" without any starting evidence at all.


This is the momen wear faith must be exercised. And we need to exercise this faith. Remember, faith is more than just belief, even the devils believe, faith is an action verb it requires effort. Effort at this point is mostly just study and prayer, to test whether the Lord's testimony that we can know the truth of the doctrine is true. By doing this you begin to test the hypothesis.

If you believe at this point, why do you need evidence?

Again, science takes a different approach. Science doesn't assume a hypothesis is true and then look for evidence to support that hypothesis, but looks at all available evidence and see if the hypothesis matches that evidence. What you are suggesting is only to look for that which you are trying to prove. That's easily enough done. Tarrot cards, horoscopes, fortune telling in general are very good examples of what happens when you fall into this sort of reasoning. You just create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Another example...those "word of the day" calendars. Ever have one of those? They give some absure word of the day and if you read them each morning, you'll find that you'll hear that word at some point, it will trigger that memory of looking for that word...

Yet another exmaple.... The magic number 23 (or pick another number, if you wish). 23 is a MAGIC number. Look for it, and you'll find that it starts popping up in your life in the most amazing places...


Now you've received this revelation through faith, you know that the hypothesis is true. This hasnt ended your faith because you need to seek after the Lord to learn even more. You've only planted the seed, you need to nourish it, take care of it and let it grow into a tree of everlasting life in your soul. Bearing good fruit.

Again, I'd argue that you just have convinced yourself of what you want to believe...


See, I've gone through this process myself. I know for myself that God lives. I know that Jesus is His Son and that He rose from the grave. I've learned this through the same methods any scientist would learn his facts, through experimentation and seeking it as the Lord directed. But the beauty of it all is you don't have to take my word for it. You can find out for yourself. Everyone can.

Again, I'd argue that your process is much different from science. But, I'm glad you speak of "personal revelation". Revelation, of course, cannot be passed from one person to another. Then, it just becomes hearsay.

Can I disprove that you do "know" the things that you claim to "know"? Nope. But I can honestly say that I have no reason to believe that you do "know" them...because you have no way of demonstrating that "knowledge" to me.

[Psychoblues]

Your argument is apparently sound, Lighting Waltz. There has been nothing presented to disprove anything you have said.




I think you mistake what a hypothesis is. Science doesn't presuppose based on no evidence, even when it makes a hypothesis.

A hypothesis is generated when you have some condition, based on evidence, and you come up with how that condition could possibly exist (or why it exists in the manner in which it does).

What you are suggesting is that we suppose that there could be a "god" without any starting evidence at all.



If you believe at this point, why do you need evidence?

Again, science takes a different approach. Science doesn't assume a hypothesis is true and then look for evidence to support that hypothesis, but looks at all available evidence and see if the hypothesis matches that evidence. What you are suggesting is only to look for that which you are trying to prove. That's easily enough done. Tarrot cards, horoscopes, fortune telling in general are very good examples of what happens when you fall into this sort of reasoning. You just create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Another example...those "word of the day" calendars. Ever have one of those? They give some absure word of the day and if you read them each morning, you'll find that you'll hear that word at some point, it will trigger that memory of looking for that word...

Yet another exmaple.... The magic number 23 (or pick another number, if you wish). 23 is a MAGIC number. Look for it, and you'll find that it starts popping up in your life in the most amazing places...



Again, I'd argue that you just have convinced yourself of what you want to believe...



Again, I'd argue that your process is much different from science. But, I'm glad you speak of "personal revelation". Revelation, of course, cannot be passed from one person to another. Then, it just becomes hearsay.

Can I disprove that you do "know" the things that you claim to "know"? Nope. But I can honestly say that I have no reason to believe that you do "know" them...because you have no way of demonstrating that "knowledge" to me.

By the Way, WELCOME TO DEBATE POLICY!!!!!!! I am certain you will have a wonderful time here!!!!!!!

[Psychoblues]

Certainly a spooky subject!!!!!!!!!!

[Psychoblues]

Maybe it is a Legos type of game for the Lord.




Maybe he thinks the universe is built out of Legos? Seems about par for his course.

It certainly seems that way sometimes. Have you a better explanation?

[Doniston]

Sounds like a smart Pope. He wants people to keep learning, keep trying to find out the meaning of life, keep searching.

How is that wrong? questioning is always GOOD Insisting that you and only you are correct is not.

[Psychoblues]

Yes.


questioning is always GOOD Insisting that you and only you are correct is not.

Either the messenger or the source may be completely wrong. God gave us the minds to discern these things. My prayer is that WE use them.