Government Workers Make More Than The Rest of Us

[red states rule]

This should put a smile on the face of every liberal who believes in big government, and ever increasing taxes to pay the cost



Government Workers Make More Than The Rest of Us
Commentary by Pete du Pont
May 13, 1998

Lest we be caught up in euphoria about all that federal tax revenue creating a budget surplus, or about the surplus tax revenue that most of the states are gathering, it might be well to remember this:

As governments at all levels take a greater percentage of our money in taxes than ever before and use it to become more intrusive in our lives than ever before, they are redistributing an amazing amount of wealth - to people who are better off than those from whom the money is taken. The fortunate recipients are government employees.

Since 1980, the average federal nonmilitary employee has received $5 in additional wages and benefits (adjusted for inflation) for every $1 the average private-sector worker received. The average state and local government employee has received $3 to every $1.

By 1994 federal employees' annual wages and benefits were an average 70 percent higher than employees in the private sector - $60,478 to $35,523. The discrepancy was not as egregious for state and local government employees - only 10 percent higher with an average of $39,128.

Here we are not comparing the wages of skilled technicians and floor sweepers. In comparable jobs, federal employees average earning 50 percent more than private-sector employees, state government employees average earning 39 percent more and local government employees average earning 31 percent more.

This is not a phenomenon in which a few states skew the figures. The American Legislative Exchange Council has found that only Georgia and Missouri pay state employees less on the average than the private sector - and the difference vanishes there when pay is measured in compensation per hour worked. In other words, state employees in Georgia and Missouri got paid more per hour, they just didn't work as much.

With this level of compensation, it is perhaps not surprising that government is, as Stephen Moore of the Cato Institute has called it, "America's No. 1 Growth Industry." Since 1992, more people have worked for the government than for all the nation's manufacturing companies. In 1994, the federal, state and local governments employed 19.1 million (not including the military) versus 18.3 million employed in manufacturing

http://www.ncpa.org/commentaries/government-workers-make-more-than-the-rest-of-us

[crin63]

Thats just disgusting!

A whole voting segment of society who are personally invested in BIG government. There is no hope for this country with trends like this. That was 11 years ago, its only getting worse daily with this Socialist POTUS.

[red states rule]

Thats just disgusting!

A whole voting segment of society who are personally invested in BIG government. There is no hope for this country with trends like this.

Obama and the libs tell us how we need to cut back.

Yet the government grows and grows even during lean economic times

The union thugs continue to demand huge pay and benefits - while we the taxpayers pay the bill

Not only the pay - buit what about the retirement benefits? The taxpayers are getting screwed while libs sit back and marvel how their plan for huge and bloated government is working

[moderate democrat]

Obama and the libs tell us how we need to cut back.

Yet the government grows and grows even during lean economic times

The union thugs continue to demand huge pay and benefits - while we the taxpayers pay the bill

Not only the pay - buit what about the retirement benefits? The taxpayers are getting screwed while libs sit back and marvel how their plan for huge and bloated government is working

got any links that show the data for the PRESENT?

[red states rule]

got any links that show the data for the PRESENT?

Read the artilce. I know this story puts a big grin on your face. the mroe bloaed the government is the better it is for the Dems

Or are you saying the government is actually cutting back?

[crin63]

Obama and the libs tell us how we need to cut back.

Yet the government grows and grows even during lean economic times

The union thugs continue to demand huge pay and benefits - while we the taxpayers pay the bill

Not only the pay - buit what about the retirement benefits? The taxpayers are getting screwed while libs sit back and marvel how their plan for huge and bloated government is working

What astounds me the most is that Libs are so stupid that they actually subscribe to this plan for bigger and more intrusive government.

[red states rule]

What astounds me the most is that Libs are so stupid that they actually subscribe to this plan for bigger and more intrusive government.

Libs understand the laws they pass on the rest of us will not apply to them. Like tax increases, libs do not plan to pay them anyway

Look at how many tax cheats Obama wanted, and how many actually were hired

[moderate democrat]

Read the artilce. I know this story puts a big grin on your face. the mroe bloaed the government is the better it is for the Dems

Or are you saying the government is actually cutting back?

the article is from 1998. Do you have any data that shows the relationship between private sector pay and government pay that is any more recent than a decade ago? simple question... a yes or no answer is all I need. If you don't HAVE anything more recent, just say so.

[red states rule]

the article is from 1998. Do you have any data that shows the relationship between private sector pay and government pay that is any more recent than a decade ago? simple question... a yes or no answer is all I need. If you don't HAVE anything more recent, just say so.

I saw the report on TV and yes indeed liberal government is doing well even in lean economic times

Dems like you are going to continue to tax us to death - and tax us after we are dead. We need to pay for all that pork and waste Obama, Reid, and Pelosi are spending

[moderate democrat]

I saw the report on TV and yes indeed liberal government is doing well even in lean economic times

Dems like you are going to continue to tax us to death - and tax us after we are dead. We need to pay for all that pork and waste Obama, Reid, and Pelosi are spending

so...you do not have any data that any of us can read that shows the percentage differences between government pay rates and private sector pay rates in 2008 or 2009?

That's all I wanted to know.

Thank you.

[red states rule]

so...you do not have any data that any of us can read that shows the percentage differences between government pay rates and private sector pay rates in 2008 or 2009?

That's all I wanted to know.

Thank you.

Why don't you provide a link that proves my OP is wrong Virgil? Or are you top lazy to do so, and you are stuck in spin mode and will defend the bloated government pay scales?

[crin63]

Libs understand the laws they pass on the rest of us will not apply to them. Like tax increases, libs do not plan to pay them anyway

Look at how many tax cheats Obama wanted, and how many actually were hired

Aint that the truth! It seems that being a tax cheat puts you on the short list for this administration.

[moderate democrat]

Why don't you provide a link that proves my OP is wrong Virgil? Or are you top lazy to do so, and you are stuck in spin mode and will defend the bloated government pay scales?

I really have no doubt that your link contains information that is accurate for 1998. I am not sure what, if anything, that information has to do with the present, however... why not post the data from 1988..or maybe 1958 and we can discuss the historical implications.... but it really is pretty meaningless when you are making an argument about TODAY to post an article from eleven years ago. see my point?

[red states rule]

Aint that the truth! It seems that being a tax cheat puts you on the short list for this administration.

The Sec of the Treasury is a open tax cheat and claims he was confused by Turo Tax

What is worse? The isoit is head of the Treasury or how Obama supporters accept his lame ass story about why he did not pay his fair share for YEARS?

[crin63]

Why don't you provide a link that proves my OP is wrong Virgil? Or are you top lazy to do so, and you are stuck in spin mode and will defend the bloated government pay scales?

If the gap by chance closed during the Bush administration then I would have to give Bush kudos for that. That would mean he did do at least something right.

[red states rule]

If the gap by chance closed during the Bush administration then I would have to give Bush kudos for that. That would mean he did do at least something right.

As usual, big government loving libs will try to distract from the main point of the article

Government NEVER cuts back. Budgets NEVER decrease. Taxes will ALWAYS go up

[moderate democrat]

If the gap by chance closed during the Bush administration then I would have to give Bush kudos for that. That would mean he did do at least something right.


I agree...and we know that Obama has not implemented any government pay increases since he came in....

I just think that having CURRENT information would strengthen the argument...don't you agree, crin?

[red states rule]

I agree...and we know that Obama has not implemented any government pay increases since he came in....

I just think that having CURRENT information would strengthen the argument...don't you agree, crin?

But has added to the spending, the pork, and number of government workers. Obama has spent more in 60 days then Bush spent in 6 years

[moderate democrat]

But has added to the spending, the pork, and number of government workers. Obama has spent more in 60 days then Bush spent in 6 years

different issue. you cannot post the percentage comparison between government workers and private sector workers in the PRESENT so you post an eleven year old article.... it's laughable... but then, I consider the source.:lol:

[red states rule]

different issue. you cannot post the percentage comparison between government workers and private sector workers in the PRESENT so you post an eleven year old article.... it's laughable... but then, I consider the source.:lol:

OK folks, Virgil is out to derail another thread.

[moderate democrat]

OK folks, Virgil is out to derail another thread.

Elmo:

your link is ancient history...you derailed it yourself from post #1!!!:lol:

and if you think I am derailing your threads... put me on ignore.

[red states rule]

Elmo:

your link is ancient history...you derailed it yourself from post #1!!!:lol:

and if you think I am derailing your threads... put me on ignore.

As usual, Virgil inserts foot into mouth


http://alfin2100.blogspot.com/2009/02/government-workers-new-privileged-class.html

Government Workers: The New Privileged Class
America, in case you hadn't noticed, is dividing into two nations. The 22.5-million-strong public sector (that includes retirees) is growing ever larger, and enjoying ever greater wages and benefits often guaranteed by state constitutions. In private-sector America your job, assuming you still have one, hangs on the fate of the economy. _Forbes
America dividing into two nations? The private sector has grown subservient to a better-paid, and far more securely pensioned public sector of unionised government workers. Government workers' unions are one of the biggest lobbies at all levels of government, and have the power to swing election results. If you work in the private sector, you are in thrall to the mighty government employee, and his all powerful union.
They can pretty much spend as much as they need to in order to get what they want. They have literally billions of dollars annually in dues they collect from their members working in government. This is taxpayers money.

This is the genuine “two Americas,” those of us in the private sector who have to be wealthy in order to retire with any sort of financial security, and public sector workers, who earn as much or more than private sector employees during the years they work, then retire early with an income for life that dwarfs what they might have eventually gotten under social security. Not only is this unjust, but it has become totally unsustainable from a financial standpoint. _Ecoworld
Public employee's have very generous pensions. These huge pensions -- which all of our taxes pay for -- are being mismanaged and run into the ground by "socially responsible" fund managers who have used other people's money to invest in "global warming" and "social justice." As these idiot-run funds crash to the ground, one might ask "who will pay for these 'gilt-edged pensions'?" The answer? YOU!!! WILL!!! PAY!!!
We have watched with trepidation as the stock market declines and along with it the value of our retirement accounts. Yet with our personal accounts, it’s our own problem. When it comes to public pensions, it’s the taxpayer’s problem. Underfunded pensions could cut two ways, leading to much higher taxes and/or cuts in government spending. _NG
It is almost impossible to lay off unionised government employees. And "spending cuts" in the age of Obama are an oxymoron. Our debt -- which stretches out into the indefinite future -- can only grow by the trillions, as the new dominant class makes itself at home in the house of privilege.
Indeed, government workers have led a charmed life over the past decade. In California, state and local public employee job growth increased between 1999 and 2007 at roughly twice the rate of the private sector, according to calculations from the Beacon Economics consulting firm. Whereas the number of private sector jobs increased about 8 percent, the number of state government jobs was up 16 percent and the number of local government jobs was up 14 percent.

As for wages, state government and private sector pay increased about 34 percent during that period, while local government salaries went up 40 percent. But make no mistake: When the value of benefits is added in, public sector workers are well ahead, often enjoying pension benefits and retirement health benefits unmatched in the private sector.
Now that Obama is NIC (narcissist in chief), what is true for California will be true for the entire nation. Government work is privileged work -- sinecured, generous, with lifelong benefits. Meanwhile, the private sector is being sucked dry by the government vampire.

What parts of the private sector will profit? The parts that are well-connected to the Obama wrecking crew. The private interests that supported the campaigns of the new ruling class, the new aristocracy, the new nobility, the new royalty.

Will being King prove elevating enough for Barak? Probably not. But we will have to wait and see how long this huge, unsustainable charade can continue.

[moderate democrat]

good attempt...got anything besides a BLOG?

[red states rule]

good attempt...got anything besides a BLOG?

Translation - Dame those pesky facts are making their way into the debate :laugh2:

[crin63]

Will an article from 2007 help?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-06-24-fedpay_N.htm

USA TODAY

Fed pay: Rank-and-file tops private average, managers fall below

By Jason Method, Asbury Park Press
Sometimes the easiest way to find a job that pays well is to ask a wealthy relative to hire you.

For many, that relative is Uncle Sam.

Federal workers, on average, are paid almost 50% more than employees in the private sector, an Asbury Park Press analysis of salary data shows.

The average federal worker made $59,864 in 2005, compared with the average salary of $40,505 in the private sector, according to the latest data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

And that pay gap appears to have widened in the first nine months of 2006.

The gap may be driven by increased competition in the private sector, where globalization and technological advances have held salaries down. Meanwhile, the federal workforce has no harsh business realities to face, said James Sherk, a labor policy analyst at the conservative Heritage Foundation in Washington.

"The government doesn't have to worry about going bankrupt, and there isn't much competition," Sherk said.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist at the NASA Space Center near Houston or a high-level bureaucrat living outside of Washington to be able to climb the next rung in the economic ladder.

In Martin County, Ind., for example, more than half of the workers are employed at a Navy base that specializes in developing high-tech weaponry. The average $67,478 federal salary there is more than twice the average private-sector pay for that county.

In Ocean County, N.J., federal workers on average make nearly double the pay of private workers. In neighboring Monmouth County, federal workers take home 65% more than private sector employees. According to labor statistics for those areas, 10,820 people, or less than 3% of the workers in the two counties, worked for the federal government in 2005.

Nationwide, there are 2.7 million federal civilian workers, compared with 113.8 million private-sector workers. The federal salary budget for civilians was $164 billion in 2005.

The Press' analysis of salaries in the 3,221 counties across the United States showed:

Federal workers are paid twice to 5.6 times the private-sector average in 352 counties in the United States, many in states that border Canada and Mexico.

[red states rule]

Will an article from 2007 help?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-06-24-fedpay_N.htm

USA TODAY

Fed pay: Rank-and-file tops private average, managers fall below

By Jason Method, Asbury Park Press
Sometimes the easiest way to find a job that pays well is to ask a wealthy relative to hire you.

For many, that relative is Uncle Sam.

Federal workers, on average, are paid almost 50% more than employees in the private sector, an Asbury Park Press analysis of salary data shows.

The average federal worker made $59,864 in 2005, compared with the average salary of $40,505 in the private sector, according to the latest data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

And that pay gap appears to have widened in the first nine months of 2006.

The gap may be driven by increased competition in the private sector, where globalization and technological advances have held salaries down. Meanwhile, the federal workforce has no harsh business realities to face, said James Sherk, a labor policy analyst at the conservative Heritage Foundation in Washington.

"The government doesn't have to worry about going bankrupt, and there isn't much competition," Sherk said.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist at the NASA Space Center near Houston or a high-level bureaucrat living outside of Washington to be able to climb the next rung in the economic ladder.

In Martin County, Ind., for example, more than half of the workers are employed at a Navy base that specializes in developing high-tech weaponry. The average $67,478 federal salary there is more than twice the average private-sector pay for that county.

In Ocean County, N.J., federal workers on average make nearly double the pay of private workers. In neighboring Monmouth County, federal workers take home 65% more than private sector employees. According to labor statistics for those areas, 10,820 people, or less than 3% of the workers in the two counties, worked for the federal government in 2005.

Nationwide, there are 2.7 million federal civilian workers, compared with 113.8 million private-sector workers. The federal salary budget for civilians was $164 billion in 2005.

The Press' analysis of salaries in the 3,221 counties across the United States showed:

Federal workers are paid twice to 5.6 times the private-sector average in 352 counties in the United States, many in states that border Canada and Mexico.

Not with Virgil. To him, governemnt is always UNDER FUNDED, and the masses are UNDER TAXED

Only bigger government, higher taxes, and increased spending will deliver America into prosperity

[red states rule]

OK Virgil, now you can run away and crawl back under your rock

Or are you going to try and defend your big government payrolls?


Benefits widen public, private workers' pay gap

The pay gap between government workers and lower-compensated private employees is growing as public employees enjoy sizable benefit growth even in a distressed economy, federal figures show.
Public employees earned benefits worth an average of $13.38 an hour in December 2008, the latest available data, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) says. Private-sector workers got $7.98 an hour.

Overall, total compensation for state and local workers was $39.25 an hour — $11.90 more than in private business. In 2007, the gap in wages and benefits was $11.31.

The gap has been expanding because of the increasing value of public employee benefits. Last year, government benefits rose three times more than those in the private sector: up 69 cents an hour for civil servants, 23 cents for private workers.

Labor costs account for about half of state and local spending, according to BLS and Census data. Benefits consume a growing share of that, now 34%.

FIND MORE STORIES IN: Census | Bureau of Labor Statistics | Federation of Teachers | Sen. Chris Lauzen
Illinois state Sen. Chris Lauzen, a Republican, says government benefits are unsustainable and unfair to taxpayers who earn less than civil servants. "People will become angrier and angrier when they learn the difference between their pay and benefits and what we give to public employees," he says.

Jennifer Porcari of the American Federation of Teachers, a union representing 1.4 million educators and state employees, says BLS figures that show government employees earn higher wages are misleading because jobs aren't comparable. Government jobs, such as teaching, often require more education.

Some states are asking unions for help with budget problems. New Mexico employees will pay an extra 1.5% of salary toward pensions for two years, cutting the state's share. Ohio's unions will take unpaid furlough days to save the state $440 million over two years. In the third year, workers will get most of the money back.

The wage gap between government and private workers has stayed roughly the same since 2002. Benefits are a different story.

For every $1-an-hour pay increase, public employees have gotten $1.17 in new benefits. Private workers have gotten just 58 cents in benefits for every $1 raise. The difference: Companies have ended most traditional pension plans and increased workers' share of health care costs. Government paid an average of $8,800 annually toward employee medical insurance. Private companies paid $4,100.

A full-time government worker receives benefits worth an average of $27,830 per year. A private worker's benefits are worth $16,598.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2009-04-09-compensation_N.htm

[glockmail]

One of my sisters just landed a job with the Commonwealth of Mass a few months ago. She's got 35 years experience working in the private sector, and after her first week was basically told to "slow down". She can retire with 85% pay and full benefits after ten years. She's 55- guess what her plan is?

[moderate democrat]

Translation - Dame those pesky facts are making their way into the debate :laugh2:

blogs aren't facts. sorry.

and here I thought you KNEW what facts were.:lol:

[moderate democrat]

Will an article from 2007 help?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-06-24-fedpay_N.htm

USA TODAY

Fed pay: Rank-and-file tops private average, managers fall below

By Jason Method, Asbury Park Press
Sometimes the easiest way to find a job that pays well is to ask a wealthy relative to hire you.

For many, that relative is Uncle Sam.

Federal workers, on average, are paid almost 50% more than employees in the private sector, an Asbury Park Press analysis of salary data shows.

The average federal worker made $59,864 in 2005, compared with the average salary of $40,505 in the private sector, according to the latest data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

And that pay gap appears to have widened in the first nine months of 2006.

The gap may be driven by increased competition in the private sector, where globalization and technological advances have held salaries down. Meanwhile, the federal workforce has no harsh business realities to face, said James Sherk, a labor policy analyst at the conservative Heritage Foundation in Washington.

"The government doesn't have to worry about going bankrupt, and there isn't much competition," Sherk said.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist at the NASA Space Center near Houston or a high-level bureaucrat living outside of Washington to be able to climb the next rung in the economic ladder.

In Martin County, Ind., for example, more than half of the workers are employed at a Navy base that specializes in developing high-tech weaponry. The average $67,478 federal salary there is more than twice the average private-sector pay for that county.

In Ocean County, N.J., federal workers on average make nearly double the pay of private workers. In neighboring Monmouth County, federal workers take home 65% more than private sector employees. According to labor statistics for those areas, 10,820 people, or less than 3% of the workers in the two counties, worked for the federal government in 2005.

Nationwide, there are 2.7 million federal civilian workers, compared with 113.8 million private-sector workers. The federal salary budget for civilians was $164 billion in 2005.

The Press' analysis of salaries in the 3,221 counties across the United States showed:

Federal workers are paid twice to 5.6 times the private-sector average in 352 counties in the United States, many in states that border Canada and Mexico.

it does... I would suggest that the average worker in Martin County Indiana doesn't work in developing high tech weaponry... wouldn't it stand to reason that high tech jobs like that would pay more than private sector jobs that require less technical expertise? Installing aluminum siding, for example, or asking customers if they want fries with that order.

Also... it would appear that this is a problem that the Bush administration exacerbated, and not one that anyone can lay on the Obama administration for having caused.

ALSO..it would appear that private sector managers make MORE money that government managers... which shows the compassionate side of American capitalism.

[5stringJeff]

The stories that have been posted compare salaries in a particular geographic area. That would span several different industries, career fields, white- and blue-collar job, etc. How about someone providing links that show where goverment workers make more than people who work the comparable job in the private sector? I can tell you that I could walk into the private sector today, with my credentials and job experience, and get a $20K/year raise (I have a service obligation to work off at the moment).

[moderate democrat]

The stories that have been posted compare salaries in a particular geographic area. That would span several different industries, career fields, white- and blue-collar job, etc. How about someone providing links that show where goverment workers make more than people who work the comparable job in the private sector? I can tell you that I could walk into the private sector today, with my credentials and job experience, and get a $20K/year raise (I have a service obligation to work off at the moment).


exactly!

and thank you for your service!

[theHawk]

I know if I left my government job I could get paid at least 15k more in the private sector. I don't know about the rest of the government, but where I work we're underpaid and undermanned. They can even make us work overtime and not pay us for it if they wanted to (we get comp time instead, which is like extra leave).

[red states rule]

it does... I would suggest that the average worker in Martin County Indiana doesn't work in developing high tech weaponry... wouldn't it stand to reason that high tech jobs like that would pay more than private sector jobs that require less technical expertise? Installing aluminum siding, for example, or asking customers if they want fries with that order.

Also... it would appear that this is a problem that the Bush administration exacerbated, and not one that anyone can lay on the Obama administration for having caused.

ALSO..it would appear that private sector managers make MORE money that government managers... which shows the compassionate side of American capitalism.

Yes Virgil, to you the masses are under taxed, and the government workers are under paid and under funded

No surprise at all your spinning and defending bigger and more expensive government

[Classact]

I saw something on this today on Fox News but can't find the link right now but I did find this link http://goodtimepolitics.com/2008/12/21/federal-workers-pay-higher-than-private-sector/

I personnaly don't think state/federal government workers/elected officials should have special medical programs, unions (if the government can't legislate a fair work place then they shouldn't have employees period), retirement packages unless the government guarantees the same benifits to all of those who contribute tax.

[red states rule]

I saw something on this today on Fox News but can't find the link right now but I did find this link http://goodtimepolitics.com/2008/12/21/federal-workers-pay-higher-than-private-sector/

I personnaly don't think state/federal government workers/elected officials should have special medical programs, unions (if the government can't legislate a fair work place then they shouldn't have employees period), retirement packages unless the government guarantees the same benifits to all of those who contribute tax.

It was on one of the morning business shows. This is why I posted this link

It is stories like this why the left wants talk radio silenced, and Fox News removed from the air

[moderate democrat]

Yes Virgil, to you the masses are under taxed, and the government workers are under paid and under funded

No surprise at all your spinning and defending bigger and more expensive government


crin's article speaks for itself, Elmo.

[red states rule]

crin's article speaks for itself, Elmo.

and so does your love and addiction to big and expensive government Virgil. Firast you said the OP was not current enoough and now you ignore recent articles showing I was correct all along

You can change your name but not your posting style Virgil

[moderate democrat]

and so does your love and addiction to big and expensive government Virgil. Firast you said the OP was not current enoough and now you ignore recent articles showing I was correct all along

You can change your name but not your posting style Virgil

I do not love any of that... I merely asked you if you had current information... and you did not. Crin came to your rescue and gave a more recent article...which shows that high tech government workers make more than the overall average non-government worker. I notice you completely IGNORED 5stringjeff's post about HIS personal experience and I notice that you did not address any of the points that I made, preferring instead to attack me personally... that's typical for you, elmo. you're a hack, and not a very smart one at that.

[red states rule]

I do not love any of that... I merely asked you if you had current information... and you did not. Crin came to your rescue and gave a more recent article...which shows that high tech government workers make more than the overall average non-government worker. I notice you completely IGNORED 5stringjeff's post about HIS personal experience and I notice that you did not address any of the points that I made, preferring instead to attack me personally... that's typical for you, elmo. you're a hack, and not a very smart one at that.

Eh Virgil - I also posted a recent link. Try something new - try READING

Unless you are to busy jerking off to Pampers commericals while you clog the board up with more useless posts

[moderate democrat]

Eh Virgil - I also posted a recent link. Try something new - try READING

Unless you are to busy jerking off to Pampers commericals while you clog the board up with more useless posts

I read it... it is from 2007. Please explain how Obama has DIDDLY to do with that...and then explain why a high tech government worker who is developing new weapons systems should NOT make more than the average of the non-government workers in his county...and then explain why private sector managers make more than government managers and then explain why Jeff says he could make a bunch more money if HE went to the private sector.
I dare you to actually take each one of those points and discuss them...ELMO. But we both know your balls are the size of peas, so that won't be happening anytime soon.:lol:

and again...if you don't want to read my useless posts... feel free to put me on ignore and feel free to refrain from replying to them.

[red states rule]

I read it... it is from 2007. Please explain how Obama has DIDDLY to do with that...and then explain why a high tech government worker who is developing new weapons systems should NOT make more than the average of the non-government workers in his county...and then explain why private sector managers make more than government managers and then explain why Jeff says he could make a bunch more money if HE went to the private sector.
I dare you to actually take each one of those points and discuss them...ELMO. But we both know your balls are the size of peas, so that won't be happening anytime soon.:lol:

and again...if you don't want to read my useless posts... feel free to put me on ignore and feel free to refrain from replying to them.

You really are an asshole. My link was from YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!

You are so ready to spin, lie, duck, and hide fromt he truth you can't even get the date of a USA Today link right


http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2009-04-09-compensation_N.htm

[5stringJeff]

I saw something on this today on Fox News but can't find the link right now but I did find this link http://goodtimepolitics.com/2008/12/21/federal-workers-pay-higher-than-private-sector/

I personnaly don't think state/federal government workers/elected officials should have special medical programs, unions (if the government can't legislate a fair work place then they shouldn't have employees period), retirement packages unless the government guarantees the same benifits to all of those who contribute tax.

Believe me, I'd rather not have unions around. But thankfully, I don't have to pay union dues.

As far as retirement packages, the new retirement system is a mix of defined-benefit and defined-contribution, not just the defined benefit package government employees used to get.

[moderate democrat]

You really are an asshole. My link was from YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!

You are so ready to spin, lie, duck, and hide fromt he truth you can't even get the date of a USA Today link right


http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2009-04-09-compensation_N.htm

the data in the article is from december 2008...before the Obama administration... that's a fact. now why not show us you have the ability to address the points I raised.

[red states rule]

the data in the article is from december 2008...before the Obama administration... that's a fact. now why not show us you have the ability to address the points I raised.

Who said anything about Obama Virgil? Anything to ignore the fact you can't even read posts when they are in English :laugh2:

You really are over your head here. Try debating someone more on your level. Like a Kindergarden class. That is if you are allowed to be around young children

[moderate democrat]

Who said anything about Obama Virgil? Anything to ignore the fact you can't even read posts when they are in English :laugh2:

You really are over your head here. Try debating someone more on your level. Like a Kindergarden class. That is if you are allowed to be around young children

again... you avoid the issues brought up by 5stringjeff...you avoid the issues of manager pay... you avoid the question of WHY high tech weapons design jobs should NOT make more money than non-tech private sector jobs. Let me know when you decide to man up and address them.

[red states rule]

again... you avoid the issues brought up by 5stringjeff...you avoid the issues of manager pay... you avoid the question of WHY high tech weapons design jobs should NOT make more money than non-tech private sector jobs. Let me know when you decide to man up and address them.

I have Virgil

You do not bother reading them however, which exposes you as even a bigger idiot then we already know that you are

snip

Overall, total compensation for state and local workers was $39.25 an hour — $11.90 more than in private business. In 2007, the gap in wages and benefits was $11.31.

The gap has been expanding because of the increasing value of public employee benefits. Last year, government benefits rose three times more than those in the private sector: up 69 cents an hour for civil servants, 23 cents for private workers.

Labor costs account for about half of state and local spending, according to BLS and Census data. Benefits consume a growing share of that, now 34%.

[moderate democrat]

I have Virgil

You do not bother reading them however, which exposes you as even a bigger idiot then we already know that you are

snip

Overall, total compensation for state and local workers was $39.25 an hour — $11.90 more than in private business. In 2007, the gap in wages and benefits was $11.31.

The gap has been expanding because of the increasing value of public employee benefits. Last year, government benefits rose three times more than those in the private sector: up 69 cents an hour for civil servants, 23 cents for private workers.

Labor costs account for about half of state and local spending, according to BLS and Census data. Benefits consume a growing share of that, now 34%.


and again... Jeff's issues about comparable jobs ...not addressed... Jeff's own personal situation regarding his lower wage for COMPARABLE job.... not addressed. The fact that government workers, ON AVERAGE make more than non-governmental workers does NOT address the issue of comparability of job type. There are precious few burger flippers working for the government.

And the fact that your data comes from before Obama took office is also not addressed. yawn.

[red states rule]

and again... Jeff's issues about comparable jobs ...not addressed... Jeff's own personal situation regarding his lower wage for COMPARABLE job.... not addressed. The fact that government workers, ON AVERAGE make more than non-governmental workers does NOT address the issue of comparability of job type. There are precious few burger flippers working for the government.

And the fact that your data comes from before Obama took office is also not addressed. yawn.

Whatever Virgil, debating you is like putting your head through a wall. It hurts like hell and accomplishes nothing

You ignore the numbers showing government is growing, and costing taxpayers more money. To you, as long as Dems are running the government the more the better

[5stringJeff]

Whatever Virgil, debating you is like putting your head through a wall. It hurts like hell and accomplishes nothing

You ignore the numbers showing government is growing, and costing taxpayers more money. To you, as long as Dems are running the government the more the better

So where exactly is the data on comparable jobs?

[moderate democrat]

So where exactly is the data on comparable jobs?


precisely jeff...

rsr makes a big deal about the average government worker making more than the average private sector worker, but does not even stop to consider that the average government job might be more difficult and require more skills and education than the average private sector job. Designing high tech weapons systems ought to pay more than installing siding or being a teller at a bank.

and then...when pinned down with that, he refuses to discuss that but switches the discussion to the growth of government...when the entire thread was started as some sort of condemnation of government workers for being better off than their peers in the private sector which he has yet to adequately defend.

complete cowardly bullshit, imo.

[Kathianne]

Actually he may be onto something that seems to have started long before recent times, if this is correct (http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2009-04-09-compensation_N.htm) and taking into account this. I've not heard or read of any cutbacks in benefits:

Comparison of State and Local Employee Benefits and Private Employee Benefits
Journal article by Perry Moore; Public Personnel Management, Vol. 20, 1991

http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=JhPCPsfg3gqp90GJvC9Gq YTNLWKRzmJfynGTJ7bXydL9h2wLVt1V!-1726066765!372059659?docId=5000142596


Journal Article Excerpt

Comparison of state and local employee benefits and private employee benefits.

by Perry Moore
This paper compares the level of benefits offered to state and local employees in the United States with those provided to private employees of medium and large firms. The public employees enjoy more paid leaves, less expensive health benefits and better pensions. The conclusion points to the additional public personnel costs created by these advantages and addresses the role of benefits in the total compensation package. It also urges that total compensation comparability (pay and benefits) be more widely practiced by public jurisdictions.
Perry Moore is Dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Professor of Political Science and Urban Affairs at Wright State University in Dayton, Ohio. His articles have appeared in numerous journals including Public Personnel Management, Public Administration Review Personnel Administrator, Journal of Urban Affairs, State and Local Government Review, and the InJournal of Public Administration. He is the author of a recent text in public personnel administration and is currently completing a book on health maintenance organization,.
As the cost of benefits have continued to escalate, and as they exceed 30 percent of total compensation costs in many jurisdictions, there is increasing concern about the level of benefits offered to public employees. For example, in a 1988 article in Public Administration Review, William Woska lamented the amount of pay expended in the public sector for time not worked.' He also noted that paid leave was considerably higher in the public sector than in the private sector. Similarly, health care costs are again escalating much faster than the cost of living with ...

End of free preview...

Locally seems there may be huge reasons for studies in comparisons:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/nyregion/09salaries.html

[moderate democrat]

Actually he may be onto something that seems to have started long before recent times, if this is correct (http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2009-04-09-compensation_N.htm) and taking into account this. I've not heard or read of any cutbacks in benefits:

Comparison of State and Local Employee Benefits and Private Employee Benefits
Journal article by Perry Moore; Public Personnel Management, Vol. 20, 1991

http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=JhPCPsfg3gqp90GJvC9Gq YTNLWKRzmJfynGTJ7bXydL9h2wLVt1V!-1726066765!372059659?docId=5000142596



Locally seems there may be huge reasons for studies in comparisons:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/nyregion/09salaries.html


interesting article in the NYT, but again... the issue of comparability does not seem to be covered.

[Kathianne]

interesting article in the NYT, but again... the issue of comparability does not seem to be covered.

Actually if the study from 1991 is authoritative, which is seems to be; as it's cited time and again, then the others follow. Unless of course there was some notable cutbacks in government benefits, though the times and USA Today both seem to negate that.

[moderate democrat]

Actually if the study from 1991 is authoritative, which is seems to be; as it's cited time and again, then the others follow. Unless of course there was some notable cutbacks in government benefits, though the times and USA Today both seem to negate that.

my question did not have to do with government benefits...they always have been nice...and for years the reason they were so nice was because the base pay for comparable jobs between public and private sectors were not even close... so the benefits helped make government service even marginally attractive.

my question about the basic premise for this thread is that RSR suggests that government workers get paid more...but we do not ever get to the issue of what the difference is between pay scales for COMPARABLE jobs in the public versus private sector.

If a government ditch digger makes 40% more than a private sector ditch digger, that would be significant.... if a government rocket scientist makes more than a private sector ditch digger, that would NOT be significant.

[Kathianne]

my question did not have to do with government benefits...they always have been nice...and for years the reason they were so nice was because the base pay for comparable jobs between public and private sectors were not even close... so the benefits helped make government service even marginally attractive.

my question about the basic premise for this thread is that RSR suggests that government workers get paid more...but we do not ever get to the issue of what the difference is between pay scales for COMPARABLE jobs in the public versus private sector.

If a government ditch digger makes 40% more than a private sector ditch digger, that would be significant.... if a government rocket scientist makes more than a private sector ditch digger, that would NOT be significant.

Limited to
...state and local employees in the United States with those provided to private employees of medium and large firms....
Not comparing Senate staffers with bridge painters.

[red states rule]

Used to be you took a government job for less pay but security and benefits.

Well now you get the tri fecta. Money, security, and benefits while the rest of productive society foot the bill.

This is socialism. The government class, and the rest of us.

and remember, Obama wants to add 600,000 government jobs

Hope the Obamabots are lovin' the change

[moderate democrat]

Used to be you took a government job for less pay but security and benefits.

Well now you get the tri fecta. Money, security, and benefits while the rest of productive society foot the bill.

This is socialism. The government class, and the rest of us.

and remember, Obama wants to add 600,000 government jobs

Hope the Obamabots are lovin' the change


again...you avoid the question from me and from 5stringjeff concerning the comparability of wages for similar jobs in the public versus private sector.

[red states rule]

again...you avoid the question from me and from 5stringjeff concerning the comparability of wages for similar jobs in the public versus private sector.

I have Virgil. You are doing your best to deflect from the basic point of this thread.

Which is usual for one of the biggest liberal hacks I have ever had the displeasure of meeting

[moderate democrat]

I have Virgil. You are doing your best to deflect from the basic point of this thread.

Which is usual for one of the biggest liberal hacks I have ever had the displeasure of meeting

the name is not Virgil... and the POINT of the thread is that the government is paying people more than the private sector...or so you claim...but you offer NO proof that comparable jobs in the public sector are paid more than in the private sector....only that the AVERAGE government wage is higher...but you do NOT show what sort of jobs those are that earn those higher wages.... It is not a big surprise to me that government rocket scientists make more money than private sector hamburger cooks. Until you address the comparability question, it is YOU who are doing your best to deflect from the point that you cannot defend.


no surprise, given your track record.

[Kathianne]

The last several posts deleted for flaming/off topic. Post on topic or move along. Any more flames will result in thread ban.

[glockmail]

The last several posts deleted for flaming/off topic. Post on topic or move along. Any more flames will result in thread ban. I'd like someone to address post 28. Typical public service job results in hefty retirement benefits in as little as 10 years- most are just 20. I'll have worked 45 years at least before I retire.

[Kathianne]

I'd like someone to address post 28. Typical public service job results in hefty retirement benefits in as little as 10 years- most are just 20. I'll have worked 45 years at least before I retire.

While anecdotal, common sense would have me believing it. Last night I posted to a study done in the 90's, coupled with some facts that coincided with RSR's perspective, pretty much backing him up. For some reason he didn't go with that, rather just arguing with MD.

#52.

MD of course would like to pick it apart over every 'this' and 'that.' It's pretty much why I don't interact with his choice to make any thread that is contrary to his pov, too convoluted to read.

[glockmail]

While anecdotal, common sense would have me believing it. Last night I posted to a study done in the 90's, coupled with some facts that coincided with RSR's perspective, pretty much backing him up. For some reason he didn't go with that, rather just arguing with MD.

#52.

MD of course would like to pick it apart over every 'this' and 'that.' It's pretty much why I don't interact with his choice to make any thread that is contrary to his pov, too convoluted to read. Not anecdotal, since Massachusetts public sector benefits are public knowledge. Its also common knowledge that retirement from govco is typically after a mere 20 years. Does anyone dispute that?

[Kathianne]

Not anecdotal, since Massachusetts public sector benefits are public knowledge. Its also common knowledge that retirement from govco is typically after a mere 20 years. Does anyone dispute that?

I wasn't clear. I meant about your sister being told 'to slow down.' I believe it. Everything you said about benefits and pensions is correct.

[glockmail]

I wasn't clear. I meant about your sister being told 'to slow down.' I believe it. Everything you said about benefits and pensions is correct. True that was anecdotal, as is this. When I worked for the State (I could only take it one year) they were delighted that I did three times the work of the average. It wasn't going to affect my advancement one iota though- and that fact was in writing.

[Kathianne]

True that was anecdotal, as is this. When I worked for the State (I could only take it one year) they were delighted that I did three times the work of the average. It wasn't going to affect my advancement one iota though- and that fact was in writing.

Around here I'd say Mass. is typical. However, Daley pulled a fast one last year, saying that since all these workers were not producing like the private sector, (these type of jobs being metermaids, road crews, etc) he was privatizing them, picked up a huge amount of capital. Shortly thereafter, parking in the city went from .75 1/2hour to 4.75. No joke. Can't get quarters in the city to save your life.

[glockmail]

Around here I'd say Mass. is typical. However, Daley pulled a fast one last year, saying that since all these workers were not producing like the private sector, (these type of jobs being metermaids, road crews, etc) he was privatizing them, picked up a huge amount of capital. Shortly thereafter, parking in the city went from .75 1/2hour to 4.75. No joke. Can't get quarters in the city to save your life. Here they put some services up for bid. If the City Department loses the bid for a three year contract, the private firm that won takes it over. My real estate taxes are about 1/4 what they were in NY for the same level of services.

[red states rule]

On Apr 10, 5:57 am, Jim Higgins <gordian...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Benefits widen public, private workers' pay gaphttp://tinyurl.com/cumm9q

The pay gap between government workers and lower-compensated private employees is growing as public employees enjoy sizable benefit growth even in a distressed economy, federal figures show.

Public employees earned benefits worth an average of $13.38 an hour in
December 2008, the latest available data, the Bureau of Labor Statistics
(BLS) says. Private-sector workers got $7.98 an hour.

Overall, total compensation for state and local workers was $39.25 an
hour — $11.90 more than in private business. In 2007, the gap in wages
and benefits was $11.31.

The gap has been expanding because of the increasing value of public
employee benefits. Last year, government benefits rose three times more
than those in the private sector: up 69 cents an hour for civil
servants, 23 cents for private workers.

Labor costs account for about half of state and local spending,
according to BLS and Census data. Benefits consume a growing share of that, now 34%.

Illinois state Sen. Chris Lauzen, a Republican, says government benefits are unsustainable and unfair to taxpayers who earn less than civil
servants. "People will become angrier and angrier when they learn the
difference between their pay and benefits and what we give to public
employees," he says.


http://groups.google.com/group/soc.retirement/msg/3d03a5d9428d06b9

[5stringJeff]

Actually he may be onto something that seems to have started long before recent times, if this is correct (http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2009-04-09-compensation_N.htm) and taking into account this. I've not heard or read of any cutbacks in benefits:

Comparison of State and Local Employee Benefits and Private Employee Benefits
Journal article by Perry Moore; Public Personnel Management, Vol. 20, 1991

http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=JhPCPsfg3gqp90GJvC9Gq YTNLWKRzmJfynGTJ7bXydL9h2wLVt1V!-1726066765!372059659?docId=5000142596



Locally seems there may be huge reasons for studies in comparisons:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/nyregion/09salaries.html

The benefits package is great - I won't argue that. In fact, that's one of the things that attracts people to government work - for many, the nice benefits outweigh the smaller salaries.

[red states rule]

The benefits package is great - I won't argue that. In fact, that's one of the things that attracts people to government work - for many, the nice benefits outweigh the smaller salaries.

Smaller salaries??????

Did you miss the OP?

[5stringJeff]

Smaller salaries??????

Did you miss the OP?

No, I've read the whole thread. I've asked the specific question of how salaries compare between comparable jobs. I have not seen that data provided, nor have I been able to find it. My conjecture is that there is a higher ratio of white collar jobs in the government, which is why salaries in general would be higher. But I have not seen data that, for instance, a government accountant is paid more than a private-industry accountant, or that a government mechanic makes more than a private-industry mechanic.

[red states rule]

No, I've read the whole thread. I've asked the specific question of how salaries compare between comparable jobs. I have not seen that data provided, nor have I been able to find it. My conjecture is that there is a higher ratio of white collar jobs in the government, which is why salaries in general would be higher. But I have not seen data that, for instance, a government accountant is paid more than a private-industry accountant, or that a government mechanic makes more than a private-industry mechanic.

http://www.usajobs.gov/

See for yourself the pay for such jobs as clerical and office jobs.

[5stringJeff]

http://www.usajobs.gov/

See for yourself the pay for such jobs as clerical and office jobs.

I'm well aware of what's on that website. One of the things that's not on there is a comparison of salaries between comparable jobs in the government and private sector. Until you can cough up data that shows that comparable government jobs pay more than their private-sector counterparts, I will not concede your point.

[red states rule]

I'm well aware of what's on that website. One of the things that's not on there is a comparison of salaries between comparable jobs in the government and private sector. Until you can cough up data that shows that comparable government jobs pay more than their private-sector counterparts, I will not concede your point.

Yea, those pesky facts are a bother Jeff

[moderate democrat]

http://www.usajobs.gov/

See for yourself the pay for such jobs as clerical and office jobs.

Jeff's point is that there is a higher percentage of white collar jobs in government than there is in the private sector.... there are lots of accountants and engineers and very few janitors, and window washers and cooks and maids and siding installers.... you have yet to show any FACTS that would compare those... and we both know that you'll go back to attacking the poster rather than try to come up with any.

[glockmail]

.... there is a higher percentage of white collar jobs in government than there is in the private sector...... :link:

[5stringJeff]

Yea, those pesky facts are a bother Jeff

You've provided no relevant facts.

[emmett]

Here is a relevant fact:

There are too many jobs in government...PERIOD.


I would think it hard to fathom that "white collar" jobs in government pay better than the private sector. It would also be hard to compare many because a private company and a government job are like apples and oranges even when describing or talking about the same job.

[crin63]

Here is a relevant fact:

There are too many jobs in government...PERIOD.

Won't argue with that! :clap:

[actsnoblemartin]

Won't argue with that! :clap:

neither will i

[5stringJeff]

Here is a relevant fact:

There are too many jobs in government...PERIOD.


I would think it hard to fathom that "white collar" jobs in government pay better than the private sector. It would also be hard to compare many because a private company and a government job are like apples and oranges even when describing or talking about the same job.

Agreed. I can think of a few departments worth of employees to get rid of.