End of Times

[avatar4321]

What do you think of the prophecies of the end of the days? I dont really care what religion we are talking about them. I think its a fascinating topic.

What do you think The Lord will do in these days?

[LiberalNation]

I think a lot of people have predicted it and they have all been wrong.

[avatar4321]

I think a lot of people have predicted it and they have all been wrong.

Do open ended predictions have time limits in which they need to be completed?

[crin63]

What do you think of the prophecies of the end of the days? I dont really care what religion we are talking about them. I think its a fascinating topic.

What do you think The Lord will do in these days?

Personally I think God will lift his hand of protection off the USA and we will fade away. I think it has to happen in order fulfill prophecy regarding Israel. So long as we remain a superpower and protect Israel I think that God will delay his final judgment on mankind.

[sgtdmski]

Personally I think God will lift his hand of protection off the USA and we will fade away. I think it has to happen in order fulfill prophecy regarding Israel. So long as we remain a superpower and protect Israel I think that God will delay his final judgment on mankind.

Wow that is an interesting thought, I had never quite looked at it that way. Perhaps it is something that should be explored a little more.

I know there have been many takes on America and it role, but that is one that I had never trully thought about.

dmk

[PostmodernProphet]

What do you think of the prophecies of the end of the days? I dont really care what religion we are talking about them. I think its a fascinating topic.

What do you think The Lord will do in these days?

....come back.....

[avatar4321]

Wow that is an interesting thought, I had never quite looked at it that way. Perhaps it is something that should be explored a little more.

I know there have been many takes on America and it role, but that is one that I had never trully thought about.

dmk

explore away. What did you think was going to happen to America?

[crin63]

Wow that is an interesting thought, I had never quite looked at it that way. Perhaps it is something that should be explored a little more.

I know there have been many takes on America and it role, but that is one that I had never trully thought about.

dmk

Politically speaking we are headed down that road to final judgment at a faster rate of speed than ever in our history. We have become a mix of 1st century Rome with Sodm and Gomorrah. If we are not already there, we may soon be at a crossroads where we repent as a nation and turn back to God or we keep running headlong into judgment. Not that we can ever stop the final judgment but God may allow us more time before it comes if we return to him.

I haven't read it yet but I heard that the latest Time magazine has an article about how America Christians are becoming Calvanists. That in my opinion is good news for America.

[Missileman]

Do open ended predictions have time limits in which they need to be completed?

The fact that they're open-ended should be the first hint that they're a load of hooey!

[Missileman]

Politically speaking we are headed down that road to final judgment at a faster rate of speed than ever in our history. We have become a mix of 1st century Rome with Sodm and Gomorrah. If we are not already there, we may soon be at a crossroads where we repent as a nation and turn back to God or we keep running headlong into judgment. Not that we can ever stop the final judgment but God may allow us more time before it comes if we return to him.

I haven't read it yet but I heard that the latest Time magazine has an article about how America Christians are becoming Calvanists. That in my opinion is good news for America.

If the brass ring...the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow...the grand prize is an all-expenses-paid, eternal vacation in heaven, why in hell would anyone want more time here on earth?

[crin63]

If the brass ring...the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow...the grand prize is an all-expenses-paid, eternal vacation in heaven, why in hell would anyone want more time here on earth?

Its quite simple actually. We want more time on earth to see others come to Christ that they might not suffer the torments of hell.

[Missileman]

Its quite simple actually. We want more time on earth to see others come to Christ that they might not suffer the torments of hell.

God has no idea who is and isn't going to make the grade?

[crin63]

God has no idea who is and isn't going to make the grade?

Hey Jim! This time warp thing is getting annoying!

That wasn't your question or comment. You asked why we would want to stay. I have children who have not come to Christ and reject the gospel. I want to see them saved.

I think the scriptures say to the contrary.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

[Missileman]

That wasn't your question or comment. You asked why we would want to stay. I have children who have not come to Christ and reject the gospel. I want to see them saved.

I think the scriptures say to the contrary.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

You miss the point. If God already knows who will be saved, no amount of time on Earth can alter that outcome.

[DannyR]

What do you think of the prophecies of the end of the days? I dont really care what religion we are talking about them. I think its a fascinating topic.

What do you think The Lord will do in these days?
He'll die fighting Fenrir, and his son will die defeating Jörmungandr.

Oh, were you talking about another Father/Son end of days myth? :laugh2: You didn't specify religion after all.

[5stringJeff]

You miss the point. If God already knows who will be saved, no amount of time on Earth can alter that outcome.

God knows who will eventually come to faith in Christ. The people still have to be born, mature, hear the Gospel, and accept it. Besides, it is not God's will that anyone would not be saved - God desires all to be saved, but He knows that some will reject Him.

[5stringJeff]

What do you think of the prophecies of the end of the days? I dont really care what religion we are talking about them. I think its a fascinating topic.

What do you think The Lord will do in these days?

To answer the original post:

1. I believe that the Church will be raptured. This will be an unmistakable sign that will cause some people to finally believe in God, while others will twist it into unbelief.

2. I believe that the earth will go through the great tribulation desribed in Revelation, which will unfold over the course of seven years. At the end of that time, the antichrist will be the leader of a world government and will gather his army to oppose God to His face. Christ will then return to earth, destroy the antichrist and his army, and establish His kingdom on earth.

3. I believe Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years, as the Bible says it will. At the end of those 1,000 years, the devil will make one last attempt to get mankind to rebel and overthrow Jesus Christ as King and Lord. At this point, the devil will himself be banished to hell.

4. I believe that at this time, all mankind will be raised and judged. Those righteous who believed in Christ (or in God, for those B.C.) will enter into heaven for eternity, and the unrighteous and unbelievers will enter into hell for eternity.

[Missileman]

God knows who will eventually come to faith in Christ. The people still have to be born, mature, hear the Gospel, and accept it. Besides, it is not God's will that anyone would not be saved - God desires all to be saved, but He knows that some will reject Him.

But no amount of time, no matter how it's spent, could alter the list of a god who is omniscient. That said god would need, or bother for that matter, to validate what is already known to him, through some testing ground on Earth is one of the least credible notions put forth in religion.

[PostmodernProphet]

You miss the point. If God already knows who will be saved, no amount of time on Earth can alter that outcome.

ah, but what if he knows they aren't going to make the choice for 37 more years?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

But no amount of time, no matter how it's spent, could alter the list of a god who is omniscient. That said god would need, or bother for that matter, to validate what is already known to him, through some testing ground on Earth is one of the least credible notions put forth in religion.

God doesn't need the time....we do....who knows, we may all be hanging around here just because he's waiting for you to change your mind......

[Missileman]

ah, but what if he knows they aren't going to make the choice for 37 more years?.....

Already answered in 18

[Missileman]

God doesn't need the time....we do....who knows, we may all be hanging around here just because he's waiting for you to change your mind......

If he's omniscient, he already knows whether I change my mind or not and there's no need to wait at all.

[PostmodernProphet]

If he's omniscient, he already knows whether I change my mind or not and there's no need to wait at all.

sure he would....you haven't changed your mind yet....as of this moment, you are an unbeliever.....he knows, but YOU don't....if it wasn't necessary for US to choose, we wouldn't have needed the last two thousand years.....

[crin63]

"How shall they hear without a preacher."

While there are no doubt people who get saved by reading Gods word alone but most people are saved after someone has preached Gods word to them, which is Gods plan.

[April15]

I got to go with missleman. He is the only one with a logical slant.

[crin63]

To answer the original post:

1. I believe that the Church will be raptured. This will be an unmistakable sign that will cause some people to finally believe in God, while others will twist it into unbelief.

2. I believe that the earth will go through the great tribulation desribed in Revelation, which will unfold over the course of seven years. At the end of that time, the antichrist will be the leader of a world government and will gather his army to oppose God to His face. Christ will then return to earth, destroy the antichrist and his army, and establish His kingdom on earth.

3. I believe Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years, as the Bible says it will. At the end of those 1,000 years, the devil will make one last attempt to get mankind to rebel and overthrow Jesus Christ as King and Lord. At this point, the devil will himself be banished to hell.

4. I believe that at this time, all mankind will be raised and judged. Those righteous who believed in Christ (or in God, for those B.C.) will enter into heaven for eternity, and the unrighteous and unbelievers will enter into hell for eternity.

I'm in basic agreement with all this.

I think most of those left will be so deluded that they will not believe that the rapture occurred. They would rather believe in alien abduction than admit there is a God in whom they will have to face some day. I also believe there will be a worldwide revival (not of the majority) as the 144,000 go out and preach during the tribulation.

During the 1000 year reign of Christ there will be those who were saved during the tribulation and did not suffer death. They will continue to have children and some of the children will be the ones that rebel with satan after the 1000 years. They will all be cast into the lake of fire after the judgment.

What of the great whore?

[bullypulpit]

Its quite simple actually. We want more time on earth to see others come to Christ that they might not suffer the torments of hell.

When I took the bodhisattva vow, part of that vow was to spend an eternity in hell if it would save one person such torment. Any of you so-called Christians willing to do so?

[DannyR]

I think most of those left will be so deluded that they will not believe that the rapture occurred. They would rather believe in alien abduction than admit there is a God in whom they will have to face some day.I have a feeling a large number of supposed "Christians" are going to be the one's wondering what happened to people if the rapture ever happens. They are the one's who will blame alien abduction rather than believe their Deity took the gay minister who worked with the homeless up to heaven, but left them back here on earth with their Hummer's and million dollar megachurches. :laugh2:

[PostmodernProphet]

When I took the bodhisattva vow, part of that vow was to spend an eternity in hell if it would save one person such torment. Any of you so-called Christians willing to do so?

no need....we have someone who's already taken care of that for us....

[crin63]

I have a feeling a large number of supposed "Christians" are going to be the one's wondering what happened to people if the rapture ever happens. They are the one's who will blame alien abduction rather than believe their Deity took the gay minister who worked with the homeless up to heaven, but left them back here on earth with their Hummer's and million dollar megachurches. :laugh2:

I agree that many who say they are Christians will be left behind. Jesus even addressed that.

[Missileman]

we wouldn't have needed the last two thousand years.....

You're getting warmer.

[PostmodernProphet]

You're getting warmer.

really?...in our teachings that's YOUR future.....

[Missileman]

really?...in our teachings that's YOUR future.....

Barnum surely was right about you then.

[Yurt]

What do you think of the prophecies of the end of the days? I dont really care what religion we are talking about them. I think its a fascinating topic.

What do you think The Lord will do in these days?

atoning for our sins. jesus is pleading our case, he died for our sins. he is our advocate. if he is not, then why die for our sins? if he is our advocate, then he is pleading our case before god. the one and only judge.

before i went to college i walked over to cal poly to shoot some pool with some friends, stoned almighty..... and this guy was in the union talkin about how the world was going to end in jan 1995. i listened, my friends laughed and went to shoot pool. i looked around, about 40-60 people listening. so i yelled out...i'm going to college next month and if you are wrong will you recant and buy me a game....he ignored me.

2009

[Yurt]

I'm in basic agreement with all this.

I think most of those left will be so deluded that they will not believe that the rapture occurred. They would rather believe in alien abduction than admit there is a God in whom they will have to face some day. I also believe there will be a worldwide revival (not of the majority) as the 144,000 go out and preach during the tribulation.

During the 1000 year reign of Christ there will be those who were saved during the tribulation and did not suffer death. They will continue to have children and some of the children will be the ones that rebel with satan after the 1000 years. They will all be cast into the lake of fire after the judgment.

What of the great whore?

to what or whom do you attribute this to?

[crin63]

to what or whom do you attribute this to?

Since its part of the end times, I was just curious what others thought.

[Yurt]

Since its part of the end times, I was just curious what others thought.

oh, i thought you posited something.

i've been told the great whore is the catholic church. those that lead the catholic church. not the followers.

[bullypulpit]

no need....we have someone who's already taken care of that for us....

Didn't think so...

[crin63]

When I took the bodhisattva vow, part of that vow was to spend an eternity in hell if it would save one person such torment. Any of you so-called Christians willing to do so?

Its funny that you vow to do what you can never fulfill and yet you somehow feel that makes you superior. You may very well be a better person than me because I need a savior and have found Him in Jesus Christ my Lord. I wont make a vow that's not possible for me to keep, for me that would be a lie.

[PostmodernProphet]

Didn't think so...

lol....you make it sound that since you've made a vow you have absolutely no intention to keep that you are somehow better than the rest of us?.......

[AFbombloader]

I have a feeling a large number of supposed "Christians" are going to be the one's wondering what happened to people if the rapture ever happens. They are the one's who will blame alien abduction rather than believe their Deity took the gay minister who worked with the homeless up to heaven, but left them back here on earth with their Hummer's and million dollar megachurches. :laugh2:

That ones who are "supposed" Christians will know exactly what has happened to them. I know it was a fiction book, but the Left Behind series covered this very well. If you are interested in the pre-trib rapture and subjects on this area, there is another website that I have gone to for years. try www.raptureready.com

[DannyR]

I wont make a vow that's not possible for me to keep, for me that would be a lie. Why is it not possible to keep? I think you're taking the word "hell" too literally. It isn't just about the metaphysical place, but any situation where you promise to do all you can to help someone else avoid needless suffering.

[PostmodernProphet]

Why is it not possible to keep? I think you're taking the word "hell" too literally. It isn't just about the metaphysical place, but any situation where you promise to do all you can to help someone else avoid needless suffering.

I may be having a senior moment, but I don't recall ever saying what you quoted......where is it from?......

[Yurt]

I may be having a senior moment, but I don't recall ever saying what you quoted......where is it from?......

interesting, i clicked on the link to the post and is sure doesn't say what he has quoted, perhaps he is playing word games :laugh2:

[DannyR]

I may be having a senior moment, but I don't recall ever saying what you quoted......where is it from?......

My bad, its crin's post. I had also included your post following it since you were both objecting to the vow, but deleted the wrong tag when I edited it. Any admin can feel free to edit the tag and correct it.

Unlike some here, I have no problem admitting my mistakes.

Back on topic, explain why you can't keep the vow. You did make a similar comment.

[PostmodernProphet]

My bad, its crin's post. I had also included your post following it since you were both objecting to the vow, but deleted the wrong tag when I edited it. Any admin can feel free to edit the tag and correct it.

Unlike some here, I have no problem admitting my mistakes.

Back on topic, explain why you can't keep the vow. You did make a similar comment.

many reasons.....no action I can take can prevent another person from receiving the consequences of their choices.....Christianity teaches that only Christ can save, taking such a vow would be a denial of Christianity.....

finally, since there would be no concept of "hell" in the Buddhist religion, it is obvious that Bully's post was nothing more than spam in the first place.....he made no such pledge....

[DannyR]

many reasons.....no action I can take can prevent another person from receiving the consequences of their choices.

I disagree. There are numerous times when one can take over others burdens for them. Ever watch the movie Brokedown Palace? Movie about two girls thought to be drug smugglers and tossed into prison. At the end of the movie, one girl makes exactly that sort of choice. Sacrificing her life so that the other one could live, even though the one who was freed was the guilty party. She did so because she knew her friend would not survive in the prison as she didn't have her own strength.

A second real example: During the Vietnam War, McCain made that choice as well. He could have been released, but stayed in prison and didn't abandon his companions. The time he was spent being tortured, others were not, and his example gave all of them strength to survive.


finally, since there would be no concept of "hell" in the Buddhist religion, it is obvious that Bully's post was nothing more than spam in the first place.....he made no such pledge....As I said, you took the term hell literally. Buddhism is very much aware that people can suffer.

[avatar4321]

I disagree. There are numerous times when one can take over others burdens for them. Ever watch the movie Brokedown Palace? Movie about two girls thought to be drug smugglers and tossed into prison. At the end of the movie, one girl makes exactly that sort of choice. Sacrificing her life so that the other one could live, even though the one who was freed was the guilty party. She did so because she knew her friend would not survive in the prison as she didn't have her own strength.

A second real example: During the Vietnam War, McCain made that choice as well. He could have been released, but stayed in prison and didn't abandon his companions. The time he was spent being tortured, others were not, and his example gave all of them strength to survive.

As I said, you took the term hell literally. Buddhism is very much aware that people can suffer.

Neither of your examples really demonstrates anyone taking the consequences off of someone else.

[DannyR]

Neither of your examples really demonstrates anyone taking the consequences off of someone else.So the girl staying in prison and letting her friend leave, when she could have left instead, isn't an example of choosing to live in hell while saving someone from that very fate? Sorry, I think its pretty exact to what bullypulpit meant by the oath.

[PostmodernProphet]

I disagree. There are numerous times when one can take over others burdens for them.

eternal matters aren't among them.....

[PostmodernProphet]

As I said, you took the term hell literally. Buddhism is very much aware that people can suffer.
you have minimized Bully's brag....though I will agree that in his heart he meant only that he would endure something trivial in order to relieve someone of something trivial.....taken as he intended it to be taken, my response was appropriate.....

[PostmodernProphet]

So the girl staying in prison and letting her friend leave, when she could have left instead, isn't an example of choosing to live in hell while saving someone from that very fate? Sorry, I think its pretty exact to what bullypulpit meant by the oath.

if that is what he meant he wasted his time saying it.....no, staying in prison doesn't hold a candle to living in hell.....if what you say is true, he might just as well as said he took an oath to be willing to endure some discomfort for someone else.....it doesn't change the fact he misrepresented the nature of the oath he took.....

[DannyR]

eternal matters aren't among them.....I'm no expert on Buddhism, but I believe in that faith the amount you help others does have a direct impact on your next life.

[PostmodernProphet]

I'm no expert on Buddhism, but I believe in that faith the amount you help others does have a direct impact on your next life.

/shrugs.....apparently Bully has some knowledge of the religion, since he has taken the vows....he should, then, have been aware there is no "eternity in hell" in the Buddhist vows....you are either here or in Nirvana......

[DannyR]

Well, I won't argue what his point was as I don't presume to know what he's thinking. I was just pointing out what it meant to me.

As an atheist, its all mythology in my opinion anyway, and thus life here on earth is really the only test each of us must face. Choosing to accept suffering (hell on earth) to stop the suffering of someone else is pretty darn noble in my opinion, so the vow is not only doable, its a pretty strong statement.

[PostmodernProphet]

Choosing to accept suffering (hell on earth) to stop the suffering of someone else is pretty darn noble in my opinion, so the vow is not only doable, its a pretty strong statement.

that vow is doable.....the one we are discussing isn't.....the statement contained the word "eternity"......you don't believe in "eternity".....thus your opinion on what Bully is vowing to do is obviously moot......

[avatar4321]

So the girl staying in prison and letting her friend leave, when she could have left instead, isn't an example of choosing to live in hell while saving someone from that very fate? Sorry, I think its pretty exact to what bullypulpit meant by the oath.

You act like those are the only consequences.

[DannyR]

You act like those are the only consequences.Death is pretty irrevocable. One can deal with lesser consequences down the road.

[PostmodernProphet]

Death is pretty irrevocable. One can deal with lesser consequences down the road.
unless the consequences down the road from death are greater......

[avatar4321]

Death is pretty irrevocable. One can deal with lesser consequences down the road.

No it's not.

[5stringJeff]

When I took the bodhisattva vow, part of that vow was to spend an eternity in hell if it would save one person such torment. Any of you so-called Christians willing to do so?

Jesus already bore the penalty for sin, so that none of us have to do so.

[5stringJeff]

I'm in basic agreement with all this.

I think most of those left will be so deluded that they will not believe that the rapture occurred. They would rather believe in alien abduction than admit there is a God in whom they will have to face some day. I also believe there will be a worldwide revival (not of the majority) as the 144,000 go out and preach during the tribulation.

During the 1000 year reign of Christ there will be those who were saved during the tribulation and did not suffer death. They will continue to have children and some of the children will be the ones that rebel with satan after the 1000 years. They will all be cast into the lake of fire after the judgment.

What of the great whore?

I agree with you on that as well. The great whore? I think that apostate Christianity (i.e. those who call themselves Christians, yet reject the core tenets of Christian faith) fills that role. I don't think it's the Catholic Church.

[eighballsidepocket]

You miss the point. If God already knows who will be saved, no amount of time on Earth can alter that outcome.

You just quoted classic, "Calvinism".

Calvinism = There are the "elect" of God. They were pre-determined before time began. I.E.. Why go out and evangelize with the gospel, if the "saved" are saved, and the "lost" are hopelessly lost?

That has been my stickler-point with Calvinism. It in my opinion is a very presumptious way of interpretting scripture.

Calvinists claim that evangelization is still necessary, as Christ commanded that His disciples/believers go out into the world and tell the "good news" and be "salt and light".

Ok, Christ commanded it. Why? If those that are going to heaven are already picked, and those going to hell are already designated, why evangelize.

Calvinists have a big problem with God given "Free Will". It is the main stumbling block in the Calvinist's doctrine.

The pure Calvinist believes that if we humans exercise free will and "choose" to believe in Christ and thus receive salvation, we have in some way taken part in the "process" of salvation that is biblically, only God's domain.

The pure Calvinist believes that "pride" is stoked in the person who says, " I chose" Christ or "I surrendered and believed.". Why? The pure Calvinist believes that man's option or freedom to choose negates the totality of salvation being of God's doing.

The pure Calvinist does not understand that the liberty to "choose" is not tantamount to bragging rights to one's salvation/conversion. It is merely, but importantly God's plan that all who come to Him, come by an act of free will, and not forced compulsion.

Also, the pure Calvinist says that many who claim to be saved aren't, as there lives don't reflect the fruits of God's life/Spirit.

Again, the pure Calvinist fails to realize that when we receive the Holy Spirit, and are born-again, God doesn't purge our minds/souls of our past life's experiences, or decisions, right or wrong.

Romans Chapter 12 starts right out by telling the Christian that he/she must "renew" their minds by the washing of the Word/scripture/bible. I.E... Not unlike having a lot of corrupted, or damaged files on a P.C. hard drive, the human mind is filled with a life-time of experiences that can fight the indwelling Spirit of God within their souls. If one has experienced covert or overt rejection from their parents, salvation and a new life and Spirit, doesn't necessarily purge those old programs.

God may say in the bible that you now have "peace" that passeth all understanding, but your mind still has the "old stuff" from often very disfunctional upbringing and familial life. That's where studying the bible and putting God's truths about our new and true identity in Christ must be "claimed" or "acquired" through prayer, and reading, and accountability.

What God's life has given us as temporarily earth bound souls, is a "choice". We can continue to wallow in our old programming/life, or we can start to take "baby steps" that agree with our new God-given identity while still earth bound souls. It is a life long process. We are being honed daily by God's endearing and patient parental love. He intervenes at times, yet at other times lets us follow folly, and learn from that. All in all, our lives are to reflect more and more the holiness of God, as we take gradual and sometimes big life steps of faith, trusting that Gods Word is infallible, and same yesterday, today, and forever.
:salute:

[bullypulpit]

Calvinism = nihilism.

But that is the case with any religion due to the relativism inherent in their doctrine. This relativism can lead one absolutism or nihilism.

[PostmodernProphet]

You just quoted classic, "Calvinism".

Calvinism = There are the "elect" of God. They were pre-determined before time began. I.E.. Why go out and evangelize with the gospel, if the "saved" are saved, and the "lost" are hopelessly lost?

evangelism is necessary because we are not aware of who the elect are and they must still be informed of God.....there are those who are aware of God in a general sense and are seeking him, but not being informed of scripture may be unaware of who he is or what he seeks of us.....thus, we are expected to inform all, so that those he seeks will have that knowledge and can act upon it.....we act, not because it is necessary for God or for the elect, but because it is what we are charged by God to do.....

[PostmodernProphet]

You just quoted classic, "Calvinism".

Calvinism = There are the "elect" of God. They were pre-determined before time began. I.E.. Why go out and evangelize with the gospel, if the "saved" are saved, and the "lost" are hopelessly lost?

That has been my stickler-point with Calvinism. It in my opinion is a very presumptious way of interpretting scripture.

Calvinists claim that evangelization is still necessary, as Christ commanded that His disciples/believers go out into the world and tell the "good news" and be "salt and light".

Ok, Christ commanded it. Why? If those that are going to heaven are already picked, and those going to hell are already designated, why evangelize.

Calvinists have a big problem with God given "Free Will". It is the main stumbling block in the Calvinist's doctrine.

The pure Calvinist believes that if we humans exercise free will and "choose" to believe in Christ and thus receive salvation, we have in some way taken part in the "process" of salvation that is biblically, only God's domain.

The pure Calvinist believes that "pride" is stoked in the person who says, " I chose" Christ or "I surrendered and believed.". Why? The pure Calvinist believes that man's option or freedom to choose negates the totality of salvation being of God's doing.

The pure Calvinist does not understand that the liberty to "choose" is not tantamount to bragging rights to one's salvation/conversion. It is merely, but importantly God's plan that all who come to Him, come by an act of free will, and not forced compulsion.

Also, the pure Calvinist says that many who claim to be saved aren't, as there lives don't reflect the fruits of God's life/Spirit.

Again, the pure Calvinist fails to realize that when we receive the Holy Spirit, and are born-again, God doesn't purge our minds/souls of our past life's experiences, or decisions, right or wrong.

Romans Chapter 12 starts right out by telling the Christian that he/she must "renew" their minds by the washing of the Word/scripture/bible. I.E... Not unlike having a lot of corrupted, or damaged files on a P.C. hard drive, the human mind is filled with a life-time of experiences that can fight the indwelling Spirit of God within their souls. If one has experienced covert or overt rejection from their parents, salvation and a new life and Spirit, doesn't necessarily purge those old programs.

God may say in the bible that you now have "peace" that passeth all understanding, but your mind still has the "old stuff" from often very disfunctional upbringing and familial life. That's where studying the bible and putting God's truths about our new and true identity in Christ must be "claimed" or "acquired" through prayer, and reading, and accountability.

What God's life has given us as temporarily earth bound souls, is a "choice". We can continue to wallow in our old programming/life, or we can start to take "baby steps" that agree with our new God-given identity while still earth bound souls. It is a life long process. We are being honed daily by God's endearing and patient parental love. He intervenes at times, yet at other times lets us follow folly, and learn from that. All in all, our lives are to reflect more and more the holiness of God, as we take gradual and sometimes big life steps of faith, trusting that Gods Word is infallible, and same yesterday, today, and forever.
:salute:
based on what you say, I must be an impure Calvinist, because I recognize very little of what you describe us as.....perhaps the difference is captured by one of the philosophical tenets of Dooyeweerd, one of my favorite Calvinist philosophers.....he argues the Theorem of Naive Thought....if something is expressed in a way that the average man on the street cannot understand it, it ought to be discarded.....

taking the doctrine of the elect to some theological extreme may give you heartburn, but the simple understanding is this....God knows who is going to accept him, but until they are made aware of him that acceptance cannot occur....we are the means by which he makes his chosen ones aware of him........that is what evangelism is.......

if you really want to understand the relationship between the elect and evangelism, study this scripture passage, it communicates it in a simple narrative...


Acts 8
26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to vPhilip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is 5desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, wa man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and xhad come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.”

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”

31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:

y“He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;

And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,

zSo He opened not His mouth.

33 In His humiliation His ajustice was taken away,

And who will declare His generation?

For His life is btaken from the earth.”

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, cand beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. dWhat hinders me from being baptized?”

37 6Then Philip said, e“If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

And he answered and said, f“I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, gthe Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at 7Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to hCaesarea.

[eighballsidepocket]

evangelism is necessary because we are not aware of who the elect are and they must still be informed of God.....there are those who are aware of God in a general sense and are seeking him, but not being informed of scripture may be unaware of who he is or what he seeks of us.....thus, we are expected to inform all, so that those he seeks will have that knowledge and can act upon it.....we act, not because it is necessary for God or for the elect, but because it is what we are charged by God to do.....

You have stated very accurately the Calvinist's argument for evangelization.

I don't agree with the premise though.

Where is the "passion" to go out into the byways, and far corners of the earth, and one's own locality, to seek out and present the "gospel"? Can you not see the very weak motivation that is behind the Calvinist doctrine, that goes back to "The Elect Are Already Pre-determined"?

Again, the Calvinist emphasizes that man's ability to say, "Yeah or Nay" is infringing on the conversion or salvation process that belongs to God alone.

Far from it! Man's God given free will, only enhances and makes more beautiful and marvelous gift of salvation, as it means that Heaven will be filled with saints that have "chosen" to be surrendered and acknowledged God/Christ's Lordship of their lives.

Maybe I can try this avenue of explanation?

If you know that you are saved, and you didn't have to choose God/Christ, but was pre-determined before time began, where is your human motivation or excitement to be and ambassador, or envoy as Paul clearly conveyed in the epistles?

There is an area where we are fringing on "automatonic" life of the human species. I.E..

Again, the Calvinist sees man's participation in the process that leads up to conversion as "inclusive" in the actual conversion process, therefore giving man "credit" that belongs to God.

Leading up to salvation by God alone is not making a human being a creator of the actual amazing/miraculous process of conversion/salvation, but exemplifies man's God given/endowed free will to choose or refuse salvation.

Salvation is not forced on human beings, or endowed without their knowledge, or the Great Commandment to go out into all the world and present the gospel would be a very moot point.

Actually, if one studies Romans, and especially Romans Chapter 1, it is clearly revealed by Paul the God-inspired author, that all mankind whether they have met a missionary or not, has been given an inkling deep in their soul that their is a Creator.

I.E. There isn't a group of human beings who somehow don't have this God given knowledge of God's presence or hand in all things that give creedence to His existence.

The stickling point is that man can refuse to accept what God has inherently placed deep in His soul. This knowledge is not salvation but that work of the Holy Spirit, and the very "wiring" of man's soul that makes him both unique and responsible for his actions/choices.

Romans 1:18-21

18For (AJ)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (AK)suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20For (AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

21For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


It is clearly seen here that every man/woman is under obligation to say "Yeah or Nay" to believing in God as His attributes have been clearly seen through His creation(trees, birth, weather, microscopic life, etc.).

Now as for the elect; there indeed is an "elect" but God is not bound by time; only His creation is. God stands in eternity past, present, future, though that concept is beyond our finite human understanding, it means that God's presence has been everywhere, and at every time in His creation, and beyond into eternity.

God was present before the "Big Bang"........He is pre-existent, and is post-existent, when this world and all of creation melts away.

Now with that very important attribute in mind, God by no difficult means, can see your life and my life before there was even a universe or an earth or 2009. He knows in advance who will by an act of their God given will, seek Him, and surrender to Him through His Son's sin attoning life.

The Calvinist believes that some are called or drawn by the Holy Spirit and others are not. That is anti-biblical to core. Christ came to save all of mankind, not some pre-determined "elect", but all who would respond to the Holy Spirits summoning, beckoning of their soul.

Where the real mystery lies, is that some will refuse to the end and will have blown away their one and only chance at eternal life, and others will have responded. This by no means makes those that chose more special to themselves for making a "Yeah" choice, but does indeed magnify and glorify the "grace" of God that is offered to all mankind.

Grace = unmerited favor. The very doctrine of grace says that those that chose, were not saved because of some pre-elect decision that only God was aware of, but because they optioned by their will to turn away from sin, repent, and with a contrite heart, receive/accept God's salvation through Jesus Christ.

Why did some refuse and some say yes? That indeed is a mystery, as the epistles are filled with verses telling us that God beckons all to come to Him, but some will sadly not respond.

Mystery: How did God make a created being, that has this ability to refuse God? That indeed is a mystery that only God will be able to answer. Maybe someday when the saints are all with Him in heaven, they will be able to understand or ask our Lord that very question.

Bottom line: There is absolutely no motivation for a pure Calvinist to go out and evangelize. In fact your reformed or Othodox denominations that adhere to strong TULIP/Calvinistic doctrine, usually have a very anemic missions budget compared to the bible churches that don't accept Calvinistic principles of pre-determination of the elect.

I've attended these churches and sadly they don't emphasize evangelizism as the Lord Jesus emphasized. It seems to be not even a secondary need/purpose, but instead bible study, and attendance and being involved in inter-church ministry help is at the top of the list of priorities.

Bible study is very important, and every believer needs to be well grounded in the scriptures, as it is the source of inspiration, direction, peace, joy, and understanding of God's will for their lives.

The only problem is that there can be too much burying of one's head in the scriptures, in order to be a "better" Christian, and like "blinders" miss out on all the divine appointments that come into our lives where we can trully be salt and light to a very mislead, world, hell bent on self destruction.

Again, I can't say this enough: Romans Chapter one clearly shows that all men whether they've met a missionary or not, have been endowed with a deep inner-man's understanding that life, creation, and all that is around them is not a primordial accident. The evidences are too overwhelming, and therefore, man can suppress the truth to himself and others and thus bring a strong delusion of foolishness and lack of wisdom to himself and seal his own fate.

God wants willing children, not children who have been automatonically been picked. Where does the Calvinist saved person give thanks? "God, thankyou for picking me before all of eternity, even though my neighbor whom I would have liked to have been with me in heaven isn't picked."? or I'm not sure.

God says that when we seek Him, He comes and meets us.

The very parable of the prodigal son, explicity shows how the father of the prodigal didn't stand and wait for his wayward son to come to him, but went out and met him, and embraced and welcomed him.

Jesus told that parable. Jesus was metaphorically showing us that when man volitionally approaches, He/God responds. Never the less, the approaching God, is not something to brag about to others, but is a time of contrite, repentant actions on our part. God's meeting us is all in His realm and is the salvation or conversion aspect that creates the God/man relationship.

Those who are pre determined or pre-elected according to Calvin, don't need to raise one pinky finger, but our secure.

Can one honestly perceive a heaven filled congregation of folks that had no choice, but were picked as a blessing to God? Where will there deep thankfulness, based on unmerited favor from God come from? God wants willing participants, not pre-determined.
:salute:

[PostmodernProphet]

You have stated very accurately the Calvinist's argument for evangelization.

John would be proud.....



Again, the Calvinist emphasizes that man's ability to say, "Yeah or Nay" is infringing on the conversion or salvation process that belongs to God alone.


quite frankly, with over fifty years membership in a Calvinist denomination, including graduate level theological study, I have never heard anyone argue that.....are you certain that's what we "emphasize"?.....it's all about acceptance, saying "yeah or nay"......



If you know that you are saved, and you didn't have to choose God/Christ

but that isn't true....you aren't saved until you choose....



The stickling point is that man can refuse to accept what God has inherently placed deep in His soul.

of course...denial of the spirit.....the only unforgivable sin....



Christ came to save all of mankind

of course he did, but many will not accept him.....he already knows who will and who won't....I think your error is in temporality....our choice next year "caused" God's foreknowledge an eternity ago.....God's foreknowledge does not "cause" our choice next year....



Bottom line: There is absolutely no motivation for a pure Calvinist to go out and evangelize.

I'm not sure of the source of your knowledge of "pure" Calvinists....apparently it's either faulty or no "pure" Calvinists exist in the real world.....however, didn't you just say I correctly stated the Calvinist's argument for evangelism?.....how can that be if there is "absolutely no motivation" for it....apparently we DO have one, and I correctly stated it......

[eighballsidepocket]

John would be proud.....



quite frankly, with over fifty years membership in a Calvinist denomination, including graduate level theological study, I have never heard anyone argue that.....are you certain that's what we "emphasize"?.....it's all about acceptance, saying "yeah or nay"......



but that isn't true....you aren't saved until you choose....



of course...denial of the spirit.....the only unforgivable sin....



of course he did, but many will not accept him.....he already knows who will and who won't....I think your error is in temporality....our choice next year "caused" God's foreknowledge an eternity ago.....God's foreknowledge does not "cause" our choice next year....



I'm not sure of the source of your knowledge of "pure" Calvinists....apparently it's either faulty or no "pure" Calvinists exist in the real world.....however, didn't you just say I correctly stated the Calvinist's argument for evangelism?.....how can that be if there is "absolutely no motivation" for it....apparently we DO have one, and I correctly stated it......

You know, Bro in Christ: You don't fill the qualifications of a pure Calvinist. Actually I think you and I are very much on the same wave-length.

P.S. I've had a little stint with Bible College myself. Attended Multnomah School of the Bible, Portland Oregon.

Myself, I don't like to box myself in and say I'm a little Calvinist or a little Armenian, or in the middle ground.

There are just some mysteries about salvation and election that scripture seems to say both ways, yet you've made it clear that we all get an opportunity in God's economy, and that's all that's important.

You also recognize the will or chooser of man that is also a mystery, as we'd think that God would create us all will willingness, yet, what fun would a relationship be with God if we didn't know the alternative or have the choice.
*******
Bottom line, you may be attending a Calvinist doctrined fellowship, but your last post doesn't align with Calvin straight down the line.

For instance, Calvin taught that "once saved, always saved". I agree, and believe I can strongly support that biblically.

Yet, the Arminian doctrine believes in mans free will to choose and refuse and that will determine who is elect or not. That I also accept.

I just want to be called a Christian, not a partial this or that.

I totally respect straight Calvinistic Christias as well as Arminian, but often the purests in those camps tend to teach and exclusivity of their relationship with God as a Christian and even go so far as to question the validity of the other camp members salvation. That is where I draw the line.

In the end, God will separate the weeds from the wheat, and the goats from the sheep.

I suppose some folks can ge self-deluded and believe they're saved when they are not, but the fruit of their lives my reveal the truth.

Bottom line: If a persons says their born again, converted, saved.....etc.. I will accept their declaration, and just try to live a life of discernment. It's not my job to be on a witch hunt for false believers.

I think your passion for the lost also can't come from a purest Calvinistic belief system. That passion to share the gospel or be salt and light is something God places in our hearts, and we don't need a command from Christ to follow through on that. When we've been trully saved, we know the difference in our life, and we just can't contain it and hide it under a rug. We want that light to be shared and partaken by others; even at the risk of rejection.

I think we are on the same playing field. Again many churches that claim to follow Calvinistic doctrine often are somewhere in the middle ground or through the years has changed gradually.
:salute:

[PostmodernProphet]

You know, Bro in Christ: You don't fill the qualifications of a pure Calvinist.

promise not to tell my parents...it will come as a disappointment to them, as they pledged to raise me right at my baptism......perhaps it was that nefarious Kuiperian influence that tainted me in college.....

[eighballsidepocket]

promise not to tell my parents...it will come as a disappointment to them, as they pledged to raise me right at my baptism......perhaps it was that nefarious Kuiperian influence that tainted me in college.....

:clap::salute:

[crin63]

:clap::salute:

I've been out of town for a week and my mind is a bit fried but what do you do with all the scriptures that refer to election, elect and foreknowledge?


(Isa 42:1) Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

(Isa 45:4) For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

(Isa 65:9) And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

(Isa 65:22) They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

(Mat 24:22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

(Mat 24:24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

(Mat 24:31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(Mar 13:20) And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

(Mar 13:22) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

(Mar 13:27) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

(Luk 18:7) And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

(Act 2:23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

(Rom 8:33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

(Rom 9:11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

(Rom 11:5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

(Rom 11:7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

(Rom 11:28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

(Col 3:12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

(1Th 1:4) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

(2Ti 2:10) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

(Tit 1:1) Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

(1Pe 1:2) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(1Pe 2:6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

(2Pe 1:10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

(2Jn 1:1) The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

(2Jn 1:13) The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Wouldn't it mean that God is not all knowing if He doesn't know who will be reconciled to Him through Christ Jesus? Wouldn't that be a weakness on the part of God not to know? It seems to me that to say God does not know who will be reconciled to him is to say that he does not know the hearts of men. It also seems to me that it would make God a limited and small God.

The way I see Arminians is that they want an equal portion of the credit in their salvation. They want something that they can say, "here, see what I did". They want to share Gods glory. Sounds like pride to me.

In most cases God uses men to reach men. It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. So for the Calvanist they are out there trying to get people into the house of God to sit under the preaching of Gods word. That the elect of God might be saved.

[eighballsidepocket]

I've been out of town for a week and my mind is a bit fried but what do you do with all the scriptures that refer to election, elect and foreknowledge?



Wouldn't it mean that God is not all knowing if He doesn't know who will be reconciled to Him through Christ Jesus? Wouldn't that be a weakness on the part of God not to know? It seems to me that to say God does not know who will be reconciled to him is to say that he does not know the hearts of men. It also seems to me that it would make God a limited and small God.

The way I see Arminians is that they want an equal portion of the credit in their salvation. They want something that they can say, "here, see what I did". They want to share Gods glory. Sounds like pride to me.

In most cases God uses men to reach men. It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. So for the Calvanist they are out there trying to get people into the house of God to sit under the preaching of Gods word. That the elect of God might be saved.

Foreknowledge means that God know's who will become His elect.

Remember, He is not time bound but eternal. He knows the end, the beginning, etc..

When you become a Christian, (Galatians 2:20), you enter into Christ's eternal life as a new creature/creation in Christ, and Jesus' crucified, buried, and ascended life is all part of that package.

Even though in "time" Christ was crucified, buried and raised, all of that important aspect of His life is yours and mine as a present, and eternal reality 2,000 years later.

Paul speaks in the present tense about His life in the crucified life of Christ. In Galatians 2:20, It starts out..." I am crucified with Christ......."

We too, 2,000 years later can say, "I am crucified with Christ, as His life is an eternal/ongoing power/blessing upon saints who lived hundreds of years ago, and those who will become His elect in the future.:salute:

[crin63]

Foreknowledge means that God know's who will become His elect.

Remember, He is not time bound but eternal. He knows the end, the beginning, etc..

When you become a Christian, (Galatians 2:20), you enter into Christ's eternal life as a new creature/creation in Christ, and Jesus' crucified, buried, and ascended life is all part of that package.

Even though in "time" Christ was crucified, buried and raised, all of that important aspect of His life is yours and mine as a present, and eternal reality 2,000 years later.

Paul speaks in the present tense about His life in the crucified life of Christ. In Galatians 2:20, It starts out..." I am crucified with Christ......."

We too, 2,000 years later can say, "I am crucified with Christ, as His life is an eternal/ongoing power/blessing upon saints who lived hundreds of years ago, and those who will become His elect in the future.:salute:

I have a very simple mind and now I'm really confused about your position.

If God foreknows who the elect will be then it seems to me that your arguments against Calvanism make no sense. Maybe I'm missing something. If god already knows who the elect are, then aren't they already elected, already chosen from the foundation of the world. Obviously they still need to hear the gospel and come to Jesus for salvation which is where Christians come into the equation. Through being a witness to them, inviting them to church and there listening to the preaching of Gods word.

Obviously I'm a Calvanist and what you referred to as pure-Calvanists we refer to as hyper-Calvanists. The hyper-Calvanists are the ones who sit back and think there is no need for prayer or preaching that the lost will just stumble into salvation at some point. We on the other hand are always looking to invite people to church, make new friends and witness to people. We rejoice every time someone new comes through the doors of our church and even more so when they come back again.

[eighballsidepocket]

I have a very simple mind and now I'm really confused about your position.

If God foreknows who the elect will be then it seems to me that your arguments against Calvanism make no sense. Maybe I'm missing something. If god already knows who the elect are, then aren't they already elected, already chosen from the foundation of the world. Obviously they still need to hear the gospel and come to Jesus for salvation which is where Christians come into the equation. Through being a witness to them, inviting them to church and there listening to the preaching of Gods word.

Obviously I'm a Calvanist and what you referred to as pure-Calvanists we refer to as hyper-Calvanists. The hyper-Calvanists are the ones who sit back and think there is no need for prayer or preaching that the lost will just stumble into salvation at some point. We on the other hand are always looking to invite people to church, make new friends and witness to people. We rejoice every time someone new comes through the doors of our church and even more so when they come back again.

Your position is clear; your a Calvinist.

My position is also clear; I am not a Calvinist.

I hope that both of us are most-of-all clear that we are Christians first, above Calvin, Arminius, Apollo, Paul, Peter, etc. ;)

P.S. Call it having a simple mind, or whatever, the scripture is very clear, we are to come to Christ with a faith no unlike little children's faith.

Sadly, us adults can make the salvation message pretty complex, and difficult when it is not.
******
Co-Crucifixion, Co-Burial, Co-ressurection, may sound mystical, but it no intended on my part.

It is all embodied in Paul's Roman's epistle.

We Christians have a brand new identity, given to us by God, through Christ. We are raised up with Him, and seated in Him in the heavenlies(Paul). That is an awesome thing!

That is why Paul says that we are not of this world any longer. Sure, our fleshly bodies our, and will someday go back to the earth, but our souls; mind, will, emotions, spirit, has been given new life with the entrance of Christ's life/Spirit/Holy Spirit.

People think that, "Seated in the heavenlies" is a future post rapture, or post endtimes fact, but Paul speaks of these identies in the present tense. He doesn't say that we will be seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus, but that we are seated in the heavelies in Christ Jesus. That again means that we have been given as an inheritance, Christ's eternal life that has no beginning, no end.

Pretty heavy, but pretty awesome! :salute:

[bullypulpit]

The question that goes begging here is just how any of us puny mortals can hope to know just what an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and eternal being has in mind. Anyone care to elucidate?

[PostmodernProphet]

The question that goes begging here is just how any of us puny mortals can hope to know just what an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and eternal being has in mind. Anyone care to elucidate?

I've always thought it was best to begin with a catalog of his possible attempts to communicate with us....if you begin with the ten most common world religions there are, I believe, only three that propose a written communication from such a being, and all three of them at least begin with the same text to the point of Abraham, and two to a point much further along.....

[eighballsidepocket]

The question that goes begging here is just how any of us puny mortals can hope to know just what an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and eternal being has in mind. Anyone care to elucidate?

Bully, Christ answered your question 2,000 years ago.

He said that He and the Father are one. Christ revealed the very nature/attributes of God, in and through His life.

So if you want to wonder how an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator will be, then look at Christ's life. It was very succinctly revealed in N.T. scripture.

Paul said in Romans Chapter one, that even those who haven't been exposed to the bible or the teachings of Christ are without excuse, as the Creator of all things has placed within the soul of all humanity a "knowledge" or "understanding" that there is a Creator, as evidenced through creation itself.

I.E. Man is without excuse.... As Paul said, that Creation itself beckons or "screams" that of intelligent design, yet when man willfully ignores that which he knows within himself from his own observations, he is without excuse.

Also, chillingly, Romans chapter one mentions that those that willfully deny this intuitive understanding that there is a Creator, become by their own volition deluded, blinded in their souls, and hardened to the point that they become foolish in their speculations about life, creation, and origin of man. Wisdom goes bye bye, foolishness fills the vacuum.
:salute:

[bullypulpit]

I've always thought it was best to begin with a catalog of his possible attempts to communicate with us....if you begin with the ten most common world religions there are, I believe, only three that propose a written communication from such a being, and all three of them at least begin with the same text to the point of Abraham, and two to a point much further along.....

Written...hmmm. By whom was it written?

[bullypulpit]

Bully, Christ answered your question 2,000 years ago.

He said that He and the Father are one. Christ revealed the very nature/attributes of God, in and through His life.

So if you want to wonder how an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator will be, then look at Christ's life. It was very succinctly revealed in N.T. scripture.

Paul said in Romans Chapter one, that even those who haven't been exposed to the bible or the teachings of Christ are without excuse, as the Creator of all things has placed within the soul of all humanity a "knowledge" or "understanding" that there is a Creator, as evidenced through creation itself.

I.E. Man is without excuse.... As Paul said, that Creation itself beckons or "screams" that of intelligent design, yet when man willfully ignores that which he knows within himself from his own observations, he is without excuse.

Also, chillingly, Romans chapter one mentions that those that willfully deny this intuitive understanding that there is a Creator, become by their own volition deluded, blinded in their souls, and hardened to the point that they become foolish in their speculations about life, creation, and origin of man. Wisdom goes bye bye, foolishness fills the vacuum.
:salute:

How do we know just who said what? Never mind authenticating any such claims.

[5stringJeff]

The question that goes begging here is just how any of us puny mortals can hope to know just what an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and eternal being has in mind. Anyone care to elucidate?

Because an omniscient being knows everything, He knows how to communicate with beings in his creation. He also knows how to create beings that can communicate with Him.

Because an omnipotent being can do anything, He can communicate to beings in His creation. He is also able to create said beings with the ability to understand His communications.

Because an omnipresent being is everywhere, He can communicate to beings present anywhere in His creation.

Because an eternal being exists at all times, He is always present to communicate to beings in His creation.

[PostmodernProphet]

Written...hmmm. By whom was it written?

irrelevant....as I stated, we should begin with a list of those deities that claim to have communicated with us....the Buddhist and Hindu religions do not claim a deity that communicates with it's creation.....of all the people of the world 90% are involved in either a religion that recognizes Yhwh as the sole deity or are involved in a religion with a deity who does NOT claim to communicate with it's creation or deny the existence of a deity.....

http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif

I rather expect that if there is a deity capable of creating the universe, it ought to be better at communication than reaching less than ten percent of the created.....

[bullypulpit]

Because an omniscient being knows everything, He knows how to communicate with beings in his creation. He also knows how to create beings that can communicate with Him.

Because an omnipotent being can do anything, He can communicate to beings in His creation. He is also able to create said beings with the ability to understand His communications.

Because an omnipresent being is everywhere, He can communicate to beings present anywhere in His creation.

Because an eternal being exists at all times, He is always present to communicate to beings in His creation.

Circular logic fall down go "BOOM!".

[bullypulpit]

irrelevant....as I stated, we should begin with a list of those deities that claim to have communicated with us....the Buddhist and Hindu religions do not claim a deity that communicates with it's creation.....of all the people of the world 90% are involved in either a religion that recognizes Yhwh as the sole deity or are involved in a religion with a deity who does NOT claim to communicate with it's creation or deny the existence of a deity.....

http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif

I rather expect that if there is a deity capable of creating the universe, it ought to be better at communication than reaching less than ten percent of the created.....

Actually, it's not irrelevant, you're just dodging the issue.

[actsnoblemartin]

Actually, it's not irrelevant, you're just dodging the issue.

i take it your not religious :lol:

[PostmodernProphet]

Actually, it's not irrelevant, you're just dodging the issue.

and you would rather deflect than answer a simple question.....who do you propose as an alternative to YHWH......as shown, he is the only deity who appears interested in telling us what he had in mind.....

[bullypulpit]

and you would rather deflect than answer a simple question.....who do you propose as an alternative to YHWH......as shown, he is the only deity who appears interested in telling us what he had in mind.....

An alternative to Yaweh? The fecund, and sometime fevered, imagination of humankind.

[PostmodernProphet]

An alternative to Yaweh? The fecund, and sometime fevered, imagination of humankind.


I am not aware of any religions that deify the fevered imagination of humankind and expect him to communicate with humanity....thus, I will accept your concession that there are no other religions besides those that focus on YHWH that consider the deity to have communicated....

if you had conceded this in a civil manner I would have taken the time to continue the discussion....

I had suspected, when you first posted, that you were interested in debate.....instead it was apparently just another opportunity for you to prance around like a four year old, singing "I don't believe and you can't make me"......thanks for wasting my time.....

[bullypulpit]

I am not aware of any religions that deify the fevered imagination of humankind and expect him to communicate with humanity....thus, I will accept your concession that there are no other religions besides those that focus on YHWH that consider the deity to have communicated....

As you failed to provide any evidence of any deity communicating to anyone, there was nothing to concede.


if you had conceded this in a civil manner I would have taken the time to continue the discussion....

Well, you're the one getting in a huff here just because my responses didn't proceed the way you thought they should.


I had suspected, when you first posted, that you were interested in debate.....instead it was apparently just another opportunity for you to prance around like a four year old, singing "I don't believe and you can't make me"......thanks for wasting my time.....

It's a free country, and you're welcome. But more to the point, anytime claims are made regarding having received divine knowledge...revealed knowledge from one's favorite deity, those claims are always suspect as they lack any means of independent verification.

[PostmodernProphet]

As you failed to provide any evidence of any deity communicating to anyone, there was nothing to concede.

ah, someone asked me to elucidate, not to prove.....but you weren't looking for a lesson, you were just looking for another opportunity to deny....next time, don't waste our time.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Well, you're the one getting in a huff here just because my responses didn't proceed the way you thought they should.



true, I thought they might proceed in the form of a debate.....

[bullypulpit]

true, I thought they might proceed in the form of a debate.....

A debate often involves having one's most cherished and deeply held beliefs questioned. Failure to address the issues raised by those questions is indicative insecurity in those beliefs.

[PostmodernProphet]

A debate often involves having one's most cherished and deeply held beliefs questioned. Failure to address the issues raised by those questions is indicative insecurity in those beliefs.

are you making excuses for why you were unwilling to answer the question?........if not, simply answer it....then we can move on to the next level....are you aware of any other religions in which there is a deity claiming to communicate with the created?......

[Missileman]

are you making excuses for why you were unwilling to answer the question?........if not, simply answer it....then we can move on to the next level....are you aware of any other religions in which there is a deity claiming to communicate with the created?......

You did mean where men claimed that a deity communicated with them, right?

[actsnoblemartin]

You did mean where men claimed that a deity communicated with them, right?

god has been speaking to man through spirituality for centuries

man has been speaking to god through prayer for centuries

[PostmodernProphet]

You did mean where men claimed that a deity communicated with them, right?

no......Bully posed the question, that is what we are debating....


The question that goes begging here is just how any of us puny mortals can hope to know just what an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and eternal being has in mind. Anyone care to elucidate

if you don't like the question go play in some one else's thread.....

thus the issue isn't whether men claim anything.....it's whether a deity can communicate to us puny mortals.....

now, I would say we are ready to move on to the next step of the debate.....

I propose four possible scenarios for the next level....

1) there is no deity...
2) there is a deity but he is not capable of communicating with us....
3) there is a deity but he chooses not to communicate to us....
4) there is a deity, he has chosen to communicate to us and his name is YHWH.....

does anyone want to include a fifth scenario into the debate?......

I would consider the Jews, Christians and Muslims to fall under #4, the Hindus and Buddhists to fall under #3, the atheists and agnostics to fall under #1.....I don't think anyone falls under #2 but include it anyway because it is a logical alternative......that covers 90% or more of the people on earth if I am not mistaken.....

[Missileman]

god has been speaking to man through spirituality for centuries

There has been no verifiable communication from a god to we mortals.


man has been speaking to god through prayer for centuries

That is assuming that there's a god listening.

[5stringJeff]

Circular logic fall down go "BOOM!".

There's nothing circular about it.

[-Cp]

I suppose this is about as good a thread as any for this..

Any of you secular types out there - wanna tell me - if we're all evolved pond-scum why the hell do you care if this happens to the world? I mean, after all - perhaps it'd be a way of life purging itself and finding a new way to start over, right? *rollseyes*..

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[PostmodernProphet]

since no one has suggested a fifth scenario, I will proceed.....

in scenario #1, "there is no deity..." the answer to Bully's question is obvious......if there is no deity, obviously there is no need for us to consider how we know what the deity has in mind....

in scenario #2, "there is a deity but he is not capable of communicating with us...." the answer again is obvious.....if the deity is incapable of communicating with us, we will not be able to know what it has in mind...

Likewise in scenario #3. "there is a deity but he chooses not to communicate to us...." if the deity has chosen NOT to tell us what he has in mind, we will not know what he has in mind...

Now, consider #4....all three religions that acknowledge YHWH as the creating deity believe that he has in fact communicated by means of a written record which not only tells us who he is, but what he wants from us.....I will pause here for objections from the audience before proceeding to the next step.....

[bullypulpit]

since no one has suggested a fifth scenario, I will proceed.....

in scenario #1, "there is no deity..." the answer to Bully's question is obvious......if there is no deity, obviously there is no need for us to consider how we know what the deity has in mind....

in scenario #2, "there is a deity but he is not capable of communicating with us...." the answer again is obvious.....if the deity is incapable of communicating with us, we will not be able to know what it has in mind...

Likewise in scenario #3. "there is a deity but he chooses not to communicate to us...." if the deity has chosen NOT to tell us what he has in mind, we will not know what he has in mind...

Now, consider #4....all three religions that acknowledge YHWH as the creating deity believe that he has in fact communicated by means of a written record which not only tells us who he is, but what he wants from us.....I will pause here for objections from the audience before proceeding to the next step.....

Yes, let's consider #4. Who writes the record?

[PostmodernProphet]

that isn't necessarily the next step, but I can proceed from there......presuming a deity who chooses to communicate to us and chooses to do so by means of a writen communication, would it be logical to believe that he would not be capable of making sure that which he wanted communicated would be found in the written communication?.......

now, let's consider the scenarios for the next level.....three conflicting disclosures of the deity's will....

1) all three documents do not describe the deity's will....
2) one document describes his will and the other two do not....
3) all three documents describe part of his will but fail to describe other parts....
4) all three documents describe all of his will....


does anyone wish to add another scenario?.....

I will go further and say that I reject #1 because we are then left with a deity who wishes to communicate, but can't....an alternative we already rejected, and I would reject #4 because the three documents contain contradictions regarding his will and cannot all be true.....that leaves us with #2 or #3....

[DannyR]

I propose four possible scenarios for the next level....

1) there is no deity...
2) there is a deity but he is not capable of communicating with us....
3) there is a deity but he chooses not to communicate to us....
4) there is a deity, he has chosen to communicate to us and his name is YHWH.....


A few variants:
A) There are beings who pretend/are mistaken as deities that communicate with us.
B) There are multiple deities, one of which may be YHWH.



presuming a deity who chooses to communicate to us and chooses to do so by means of a writen communicationI think the presumption I marked in red is not necessarily true. Other than the tablet of the 10 commandments, all communications with God have been direct communications with messengers, who in turn have written down their experiences.

Most people have consciences, which many religions interpret as God's will speaking through us. The written books usually only reinforce what most people know to be right.

So if (1) all three documents do not describe the deity's will. is true, that doesn't mean that God doesn't communicate with us. Only that the people who choose to write their experiences did so for their own reasons. The real deity may be speaking continually to each of us via our conscience, and the books that exist may only be remnants of my variant A), as relevant as a Greek or Norse myths.

[DannyR]

if we're all evolved pond-scum why the hell do you care if this happens to the world? I mean, after all - perhaps it'd be a way of life purging itself and finding a new way to start over, right?

This a serious question? I fail to understand the logic at all. How in the world could you think evolution makes people ok with nuclear holocaust?

For starters:
A) Evolution rewards species survival. Its found in our desire to have children, and care about others around us. So that means all of us are pretty much invested in what happens to ourselves and the world.

B) nuclear war would kill much of the biodiversity found on the planet. A setback, not a step forward. It would be millions of years before the planet could recover.

[-Cp]

This a serious question? I fail to understand the logic at all. How in the world could you think evolution makes people ok with nuclear holocaust?

For starters:
A) Evolution rewards species survival. Its found in our desire to have children, and care about others around us. So that means all of us are pretty much invested in what happens to ourselves and the world.

B) nuclear war would kill much of the biodiversity found on the planet. A setback, not a step forward. It would be millions of years before the planet could recover.

Of course it's a serious question... why the hell should we care at all if our "species" continues or not? What's in it for us?

[DannyR]

why the hell should we care at all if our "species" continues or not? What's in it for us?Survival. Enjoying life.

At the time of my death, I'll have had a full and wonderful life that I've enjoyed to the fullest. You'll have wasted a large percentage of yours worshiping something that doesn't exist. ;)

[PostmodernProphet]

A few variants:
A) There are beings who pretend/are mistaken as deities that communicate with us.
B) There are multiple deities, one of which may be YHWH.


a) the question raised was how would we be aware of what a deity had in mind.....bringing an entity in that is not a deity doesn't bring us any close to answering that question, does it?....I mean, I could say DannyR can tell us what is on his mind, but it doesn't help us investigate how we communicate with a deity......
b) I realize you are joining the debate late, but I had opened the discussion for additional deities besides YHWH that had claimed communication several posts earlier......please feel free to identify these deities at this time....

[PostmodernProphet]

I think the presumption I marked in red is not necessarily true. Other than the tablet of the 10 commandments, all communications with God have been direct communications with messengers, who in turn have written down their experiences.

not true at all.....if all communications with God were direct communications then you would have spoken with him as would I.....it is clearly true that he has chosen the method of a written communication by which to communicate with the vast majority of humanity......

[PostmodernProphet]

At the time of my death, I'll have had a full and wonderful life that I've enjoyed to the fullest. You'll have wasted a large percentage of yours worshiping something that doesn't exist. ;)
wow, there's an ego for you.....you actually believe that those of us who worship God don't enjoy a full and wonderful life?......what am I missing out on by believing in a God?

[Abbey Marie]

Survival. Enjoying life.

At the time of my death, I'll have had a full and wonderful life that I've enjoyed to the fullest. You'll have wasted a large percentage of yours worshiping something that doesn't exist. ;)

Exactly how do I "waste" my life worshipping God?

[DannyR]

Exactly how do I "waste" my life worshipping God?If God doesn't exist, how is it not a waste?

You're presumably spending 10% or so as well, most of which goes only to the propagation of the church you belong to. Sure some of that goes to charity and actually helps others, but I believe the majority of church contributions are used to maintaining the grounds, paying pastor salaries, etc.


you actually believe that those of us who worship God don't enjoy a full and wonderful life?......what am I missing out on by believing in a God?Ok, worded that poorly. Not that you don't have good lives. Just thinking how much of it is wasted on something that doesn't exist. But if it brings you joy, more power to you. I enjoy a good movie myself.

But lets consider this. Assuming for one moment the impossible was possible, and at the moment of your death you knew for certain that God didn't exist. Would you feel cheated at all the time you invested in him?

And to be fair, obviously as an atheist I'm going to be quite screwed if I'm wrong.

[Yurt]

Survival. Enjoying life.

At the time of my death, I'll have had a full and wonderful life that I've enjoyed to the fullest. You'll have wasted a large percentage of yours worshiping something that doesn't exist. ;)

and if god does exist and you outright rejected him, you just wasted yours :poke:

you're a bit snarky

[PostmodernProphet]

But lets consider this. Assuming for one moment the impossible was possible, and at the moment of your death you knew for certain that God didn't exist. Would you feel cheated at all the time you invested in him?

no...God doesn't need anything from me....I have "invested" nothing in him.....perhaps you recall the Christian principle that you serve God by doing things for the poor and the hungry.....our time is "invested" in doing things for people.....worst case situation, we've still done things for people......for example, tonight I will spend an hour teaching a financial counseling class....am I "wasting" that time if there is no God?.....

if I go to a church next Sunday morning and spend an hour singing and listening to a preacher, has my time been "wasted" because I didn't spend it sitting with a cup of coffee at my kitchen table reading the Sunday paper instead?......


I enjoy a good movie myself

forgot about that....sucks to be a Christian and not be able to watch movies.....

[Abbey Marie]

...
forgot about that....sucks to be a Christian and not be able to watch movies.....

Methinks some people took Footloose too seriously. ;)

[bullypulpit]

not true at all.....if all communications with God were direct communications then you would have spoken with him as would I.....it is clearly true that he has chosen the method of a written communication by which to communicate with the vast majority of humanity......

Hmmm...Let's see here...Written "communication" since you're dodging the question of who does the writing, we'll cut to the chase. The writers are, without proven exception human beings. Their writings are inspired by their "communication" with God. These days, we call that schizophrenia.

Even with the best of intentions, these writings are based upon the subjective and unverifiable experiences of the authors from a time when the most fundamental understanding of the goings on and the troubles of the world were the will of god(s).

[bullypulpit]

Of course it's a serious question... why the hell should we care at all if our "species" continues or not? What's in it for us?

What is the meaning of life? That meaning which we choose to give it.

[avatar4321]

If God doesn't exist, how is it not a waste?

How can you do good things with your life and call it a waste?


You're presumably spending 10% or so as well, most of which goes only to the propagation of the church you belong to. Sure some of that goes to charity and actually helps others, but I believe the majority of church contributions are used to maintaining the grounds, paying pastor salaries, etc.

And somehow encouraging people to live honest moral lives is a bad thing? And pastors shouldnt be paid.


Ok, worded that poorly. Not that you don't have good lives. Just thinking how much of it is wasted on something that doesn't exist. But if it brings you joy, more power to you. I enjoy a good movie myself.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe you're wasting your life by spending time in the movies rather than doing good and preparing for a better life?


But lets consider this. Assuming for one moment the impossible was possible, and at the moment of your death you knew for certain that God didn't exist. Would you feel cheated at all the time you invested in him?

That's a pretty big hypothetical. I wouldnt feel cheated. I made my choices and with good reasons.


And to be fair, obviously as an atheist I'm going to be quite screwed if I'm wrong.

But you don't have to. Why on earth would you just conclude to send yourself to hell with no discussion at all with the Lord? It just doesn't make any sense.

I can understand being skeptical, but it's the "Oh I dont know anything about God, therefore Im not going to do a damn thing to find out anything" attitude that I dont get. Why on earth do you just conclude there is no God simply because you dont know? How the heck do you ever expect to know how?

You want to know the truth of the matter? You're lazy about eternal things. You just don't care. or you scared to death that investigating the matter will show you that there is a God and you'd have to change your life.

What gets me is youd rather live in ignorance than find out. Who cares if you have to change alittle? Isnt the truth worth it? I was willing to give everything I knew to find out. I was willing to wait as long as it took. And when I did learn it, I knew from that second on that I had to change my life for the better.

But it sure as hell beat staying in ignorance. You can learn more about the heavens in five minutes of divine communication than a life time of reading and theorizing.

Stop justifying inaction and start trying to figure things out. Because if you refuse to use your brain and do things, then you really are wasting your life.

[Missileman]

Of course it's a serious question... why the hell should we care at all if our "species" continues or not? What's in it for us?

Where in hell did you come up with the bullshit notion that only someone who believes in a deity and an afterlife would be concerned about the survival of life on Earth? A maybe better question is what did any person who claimed a belief in evolution ever say or write that could be construed as a lack of concern for the survival of life on Earth?

[Missileman]

not true at all.....if all communications with God were direct communications then you would have spoken with him as would I.....it is clearly true that he has chosen the method of a written communication by which to communicate with the vast majority of humanity......

It is clearly TRUE, that MEN have claimed he has chosen to communicate through THEIR writings. There isn't a single shred of written word anywhere that can be claimed(believably) to be penned by a god.

[avatar4321]

It is clearly TRUE, that MEN have claimed he has chosen to communicate through THEIR writings. There isn't a single shred of written word anywhere that can be claimed(believably) to be penned by a god.

eh... i guess that depends on if you accept a popular theory that man is a god. Then i guess technically everything has been penned by a god.

[Missileman]

But you don't have to. Why on earth would you just conclude to send yourself to hell with no discussion at all with the Lord? It just doesn't make any sense.

I can understand being skeptical, but it's the "Oh I dont know anything about God, therefore Im not going to do a damn thing to find out anything" attitude that I dont get. Why on earth do you just conclude there is no God simply because you dont know? How the heck do you ever expect to know how?

You want to know the truth of the matter? You're lazy about eternal things. You just don't care. or you scared to death that investigating the matter will show you that there is a God and you'd have to change your life.

What gets me is youd rather live in ignorance than find out. Who cares if you have to change alittle? Isnt the truth worth it? I was willing to give everything I knew to find out. I was willing to wait as long as it took. And when I did learn it, I knew from that second on that I had to change my life for the better.

But it sure as hell beat staying in ignorance. You can learn more about the heavens in five minutes of divine communication than a life time of reading and theorizing.

Stop justifying inaction and start trying to figure things out. Because if you refuse to use your brain and do things, then you really are wasting your life.

Talk about arrogant! Anyone who doesn't share your belief is living in ignorance? Here's your argument in a nutshell: There are invisible pink bunny rabbits with baskets of goodies standing beside every dandelion that grows. If you believe in them, you can see them. If you can't see them, you aren't trying to believe hard enough.

[Missileman]

eh... i guess that depends on if you accept a popular theory that man is a god. Then i guess technically everything has been penned by a god.

Not sure I know that theory. Who proposed it?

[-Cp]

Where in hell did you come up with the bullshit notion that only someone who believes in a deity and an afterlife would be concerned about the survival of life on Earth? A maybe better question is what did any person who claimed a belief in evolution ever say or write that could be construed as a lack of concern for the survival of life on Earth?

What I'm saying is that if we all are here via a HUGE accident - the likes of which is nearly mathematically impossible - then why the hell should we care about what happens to us, this planet or future generations?

[Missileman]

What I'm saying is that if we all are here via a HUGE accident - the likes of which is nearly mathematically impossible - then why the hell should we care about what happens to us, this planet or future generations?

It would make life all the more precious, not less.

[avatar4321]

Talk about arrogant! Anyone who doesn't share your belief is living in ignorance? Here's your argument in a nutshell: There are invisible pink bunny rabbits with baskets of goodies standing beside every dandelion that grows. If you believe in them, you can see them. If you can't see them, you aren't trying to believe hard enough.

Talk about illiteracy. You didnt read a word I said didnt you? I didnt say anything about sharing my belief.

I said it's ignorant not to learn; not to try and find out anything.

What is arrogant is assuming that because you've had no experiences with the divine that no one else has. What is arrogant is to assume that since youve had no experience with the divine that there is no divine. You cut yourself off before you even have a chance to learn and wonder why you don't know a damn thing about it.

[Missileman]

Talk about illiteracy. You didnt read a word I said didnt you? I didnt say anything about sharing my belief.

I said it's ignorant not to learn; not to try and find out anything.

Bullshit! You said anyone who doesn't seek out the truth(as you know it) is living in ignorance...that anyone who has deliberated the idea and has come to the conclusion that there is no god is ignorant.


What is arrogant is assuming that because you've had no experiences with the divine that no one else has. What is arrogant is to assume that since youve had no experience with the divine that there is no divine. You cut yourself off before you even have a chance to learn and wonder why you don't know a damn thing about it.

You assume that your knowledge is superior to mine and you call me arrogant...you assume that your delusions of the divine should make me drop everything and jump on the deluded bandwagon yet you call me arrogant. That you keep repeating the theme that anyone who doesn't share your belief in the divine is lazy, ignorant, and just not trying hard enough is arrogant enough for the both of us.

[Yurt]

Bullshit! You said anyone who doesn't seek out the truth(as you know it) is living in ignorance...that anyone who has deliberated the idea and has come to the conclusion that there is no god is ignorant.



You assume that your knowledge is superior to mine and you call me arrogant...you assume that your delusions of the divine should make me drop everything and jump on the deluded bandwagon yet you call me arrogant. That you keep repeating the theme that anyone who doesn't share your belief in the divine is lazy, ignorant, and just not trying hard enough is arrogant enough for the both of us.

oh the irony....he has delusions of the divine...and you are not arrogant for saying that...which is what you "claim" he is saying about those not knowing god, which he in fact is not saying....

[bullypulpit]

Exactly how do I "waste" my life worshipping God?

It's not if it adds meaning and fulfillment to your life. But like anything else, some of us need it, others don't. And different systems of religious belief fulfill the differing needs and capacities of their adherents. For anyone to claim that the general garment of ANY religion is a fit for all is the height of arrogance and ignorance of human nature. It is also when trouble starts.

[Missileman]

oh the irony....he has delusions of the divine...and you are not arrogant for saying that...which is what you "claim" he is saying about those not knowing god, which he in fact is not saying....

Point to where I denied being arrogant. Then, point to where I "claim" he called non-believers arrogant... I quoted him directly.

As for delusion, it most probably is if he believes he was actually contacted by a god. It's funny isn't it that you all claim to believe, but let someone actually claim to have a conversation with God...you throw them into the nearest padded cell.

[PostmodernProphet]

Hmmm...Let's see here...Written "communication" since you're dodging the question of who does the writing, we'll cut to the chase. The writers are, without proven exception human beings. Their writings are inspired by their "communication" with God. These days, we call that schizophrenia.

since I have already answered this in #102, perhaps it would save time if you just commented on that post....

[PostmodernProphet]

It is clearly TRUE, that MEN have claimed he has chosen to communicate through THEIR writings. There isn't a single shred of written word anywhere that can be claimed(believably) to be penned by a god.

you as well seem to want to ignore the response I made in #102......

[PostmodernProphet]

to save you both time, here it is again.....

presuming a deity who chooses to communicate to us and chooses to do so by means of a writen communication, would it be logical to believe that he would not be capable of making sure that which he wanted communicated would be found in the written communication?.......

[Missileman]

you as well seem to want to ignore the response I made in #102......

I'm not ignoring it...I'm outright dismissing the hypothesis that a god isn't capable of writing his own words. It doesn't pass a sanity check.

[Missileman]

to save you both time, here it is again.....

presuming a deity who chooses to communicate to us and chooses to do so by means of a writen communication, would it be logical to believe that he would not be capable of making sure that which he wanted communicated would be found in the written communication?.......

Do you REALLY want to go here? I can hear the apologists warming up already. All the totally idiotic, nonsensical crap in the Bible makes it obvious that your god couldn't overcome the human error of his "divinely-inspired" recorders. So your premise is flawed. It appears that the only way for a god to be capable of communicating through written word is if he were to write it himself.

[Yurt]

Point to where I denied being arrogant. Then, point to where I "claim" he called non-believers arrogant... I quoted him directly.

As for delusion, it most probably is if he believes he was actually contacted by a god. It's funny isn't it that you all claim to believe, but let someone actually claim to have a conversation with God...you throw them into the nearest padded cell.

:lol:

so what is your issue if avi is ignorant? what do you care...

yeah, padded cell....depends on who is in government...but you know that

[Yurt]

Do you REALLY want to go here? I can hear the apologists warming up already. All the totally idiotic, nonsensical crap in the Bible makes it obvious that your god couldn't overcome the human error of his "divinely-inspired" recorders. So your premise is flawed. It appears that the only way for a god to be capable of communicating through written word is if he were to write it himself.

seriously.....why waste your time....you believe we came from apes, pond scum....why waste your time?

because you aren't sure. and i respect that.

your premise is as flawed as any you claim to be flawed. that is a fact. get pissed, get mad, make angry posts....won't change that fact.

this is not about facts, this is not about science......it is about faith.

[Missileman]

so what is your issue if avi is ignorant?

Remember for future reference that these are your words, not mine.



yeah, padded cell....depends on who is in government...but you know that

Really? Can you provide any evidence that politics are a consideration in mental health diagnoses?

[Missileman]

because you aren't sure. and i respect that.

I am quite certain and comfortable with my outlook on life and the absence of the supernatural.


your premise is as flawed as any you claim to be flawed. that is a fact. get pissed, get mad, make angry posts....won't change that fact.

Which premise might that be?


this is not about facts, this is not about science......it is about faith.

Which is exactly the reason that someone recently posted something to the effect of the Bible needing to be read with the mental wherewithall of a child...

[PostmodernProphet]

All the totally idiotic, nonsensical crap in the Bible makes it obvious that your god couldn't overcome the human error of his "divinely-inspired" recorders.

I was hoping to have a good logical debate on the issue....I hadn't counted on the juvenile nature of the participants......I repeat, your assumption that an omnipotent being isn't capable of communicating his will through a third party is invalid.....

[PostmodernProphet]

unnecessary duplication.,...

[avatar4321]

Bullshit! You said anyone who doesn't seek out the truth(as you know it) is living in ignorance...that anyone who has deliberated the idea and has come to the conclusion that there is no god is ignorant.

Anyone who doesnt seek out truth is living in ignorance. How can you chose not to learn and seek out knowledge and be intelligent?



You assume that your knowledge is superior to mine and you call me arrogant...you assume that your delusions of the divine should make me drop everything and jump on the deluded bandwagon yet you call me arrogant. That you keep repeating the theme that anyone who doesn't share your belief in the divine is lazy, ignorant, and just not trying hard enough is arrogant enough for the both of us

You are arrogant. You presume that dictate what is right and wrong in regards to the spiritual world around us while admitting that you dont know about it. I don't know astro physics, you dont see me telling people who do what is wrong with their analysis do you?

If you aren't trying to learn, how are you not ignorant? If you're trying to lecture people on things you admitt know, how are you not arrogant?

[avatar4321]

Point to where I denied being arrogant. Then, point to where I "claim" he called non-believers arrogant... I quoted him directly.

As for delusion, it most probably is if he believes he was actually contacted by a god. It's funny isn't it that you all claim to believe, but let someone actually claim to have a conversation with God...you throw them into the nearest padded cell.

I never called non-believers arrogant. I called people who presume to lecture others on stuff they themselves say they have no knowledge in. There are plenty of non-believers who don't do such things.

Nor is a non-believer ignorant just for not believing. They are ignorant when they refuse to seek truth.

The Spiritual world is much like the physical world. One needs to experiment to find truth.

[Missileman]

I was hoping to have a good logical debate on the issue....I hadn't counted on the juvenile nature of the participants......I repeat, your assumption that an omnipotent being isn't capable of communicating his will through a third party is invalid.....

On the contrary...if he was capable of making his inentions perfectly clear through a third party, then the Bible would be infallible, perfect, unopen to interpretation.

[Missileman]

Anyone who doesnt seek out truth is living in ignorance. How can you chose not to learn and seek out knowledge and be intelligent?

Again...you keep stating that unless someone recognizes YOUR truth as accurate, they're ignorant and now you've added stupid.



You are arrogant. You presume that dictate what is right and wrong in regards to the spiritual world around us while admitting that you dont know about it. I don't know astro physics, you dont see me telling people who do what is wrong with their analysis do you?

If you aren't trying to learn, how are you not ignorant? If you're trying to lecture people on things you admitt know, how are you not arrogant?

No less arrogant than you, which was the point of my intial post to you in the first place. I suggest that until you're ready to learn about the invisible pink bunny rabbits you're ignorant by your own standard.

[Missileman]

I never called non-believers arrogant. I called people who presume to lecture others on stuff they themselves say they have no knowledge in. There are plenty of non-believers who don't do such things.

Nor is a non-believer ignorant just for not believing. They are ignorant when they refuse to seek truth.

The Spiritual world is much like the physical world. One needs to experiment to find truth.

ROFL...more of the same tired, circular BS.

[bullypulpit]

since I have already answered this in #102, perhaps it would save time if you just commented on that post....

No, you didn't answer. You simply laid out a series of alternatives based on the assumption that there is a deity...omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal and beyond human perception...that might, or might not, make it's will known to use in this little corner of the universe. And BTW, why do you assume such a being is a "he"?

[bullypulpit]

They are ignorant when they refuse to seek truth.

Anyone who, along with their coreligionists, claim to have a lock on the "truth" is being arrogant in the extreme.

[bullypulpit]

I was hoping to have a good logical debate on the issue....I hadn't counted on the juvenile nature of the participants......I repeat, your assumption that an omnipotent being isn't capable of communicating his will through a third party is invalid.....

Juvenile? What is more juvenile than the magical thinking of children run amok in the hands of adults? That is, after all, what religion is.

[PostmodernProphet]

On the contrary...if he was capable of making his inentions perfectly clear through a third party, then the Bible would be infallible, perfect, unopen to interpretation.


his intentions aren't that unclear.....if you will simply continue with the debate we can get to that issue....meanwhile, why not respond to the question raised?......

[PostmodernProphet]

No, you didn't answer. You simply laid out a series of alternatives based on the assumption that there is a deity...omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal and beyond human perception...that might, or might not, make it's will known to use in this little corner of the universe. And BTW, why do you assume such a being is a "he"?

bingo....I laid out a series of alternatives based upon assumptions, and invited you to propose other assumptions.....however instead of responding you went back to "I don't believe and you can't make me".......that is hardly debate.......and I have no objection to calling him a her if that will permit you to continue.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Juvenile? What is more juvenile than the magical thinking of children run amok in the hands of adults? That is, after all, what religion is.

what is more juvenile?.....refusing to answer a simple question because you would rather shout "I do not believe!"

[PostmodernProphet]

2) one document describes his will and the other two do not....
3) all three documents describe part of his will but fail to describe other parts....

since neither of you have proposed anything new, we will proceed from the last point.....

in order to determine which is true, we need to examine what the holy documents of these three religions have in common and where they differ.....first, what they hold in common...

all three religions revere the God of Abraham....the written documents of all three describe a montheism, a creating deity, an eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent deity, a deity with an active relationship with his(her) creation.....

all three describe a unity of purpose....the will of the deity is that the created acknowledge the deity as being the one true god....

any disagreements so far?.......

[PostmodernProphet]

Originally Posted by avatar4321 View Post
Anyone who doesnt seek out truth is living in ignorance. How can you chose not to learn and seek out knowledge and be intelligent?

Again...you keep stating that unless someone recognizes YOUR truth as accurate, they're ignorant and now you've added stupid.

considering the fact that YOU have to keep inserting the word "your" into his comments, isn't it obvious that you're wrong?.......

[Missileman]

his intentions aren't that unclear.....if you will simply continue with the debate we can get to that issue....meanwhile, why not respond to the question raised?......

I did answer the question. The only way a deity could clearly indicate his desires through written communication is if he verifiably penned it himself, as evidenced by the Bible.

[Missileman]

considering the fact that YOU have to keep inserting the word "your" into his comments, isn't it obvious that you're wrong?.......

No, I'm not wrong. Since he keeps basing all his circular arguments on what he perceives to be the truth, my use of the adjective "your" is warranted. And, it might serve you well to seek out those invisible pink bunny rabbits too. You just have to believe. What? Still can't see them? You're not trying hard enough.

[PostmodernProphet]

I did answer the question. The only way a deity could clearly indicate his desires through written communication is if he verifiably penned it himself, as evidenced by the Bible.

???..../shrugs....it would seem to me you envision a deity peculiarly limited in power......does he have to encorporate a human hand to hold the pen and scroll?.....can he merely seize the mind of a human temporarily?.....how about if he just causes everything the human writes that ISN'T His will to burst into flames before anyone reads it?.....seems to me there are a million ways even a half-assed deity could accomplish it......

can you distinguish your 'deity' from that alternative we discussed earlier.....one who wishes to communicate, but is unable to?......

[PostmodernProphet]

No, I'm not wrong. Since he keeps basing all his circular arguments on what he perceives to be the truth, my use of the adjective "your" is warranted. And, it might serve you well to seek out those invisible pink bunny rabbits too. You just have to believe. What? Still can't see them? You're not trying hard enough.

it always strikes me as amusing that atheists can't come up with original arguments.....is there some atheist web site somewhere where you guys store the pink bunnies and spaghetti monsters so you can just cut and paste them.......

apparently he is right, you ARE afraid to examine things for truth, it's so much easier to just read the atheist "think for me" sites.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Let's look at it from a different angle....

if we are talking about a deity capable of creating DNA and the Horseshoe Nebula, how hard could it be for him to figure out how to get 100 men to unanimously vote that the Gospel of Fred the Farscical ought not be included in his religious canon?......

[Missileman]

since neither of you have proposed anything new, we will proceed from the last point.....

in order to determine which is true, we need to examine what the holy documents of these three religions have in common and where they differ.....first, what they hold in common...

all three religions revere the God of Abraham....the written documents of all three describe a montheism, a creating deity, an eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent deity, a deity with an active relationship with his(her) creation.....

all three describe a unity of purpose....the will of the deity is that the created acknowledge the deity as being the one true god....

any disagreements so far?.......

Operating under the assumption that the shared roots of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam lend any or all of them any credibility is your first problem. Your second is an assumption that words on paper makes the middle-eastern based religions more credible than any other. But, by all means, proceed with your exercise in mental masturbation. A few posts from now, you'll slap yourself on the back and proclaim you've proven that your god is real through the power of logic. I can hardly wait...need a good laugh.

[Missileman]

???..../shrugs....it would seem to me you envision a deity peculiarly limited in power......does he have to encorporate a human hand to hold the pen and scroll?.....can he merely seize the mind of a human temporarily?.....how about if he just causes everything the human writes that ISN'T His will to burst into flames before anyone reads it?.....seems to me there are a million ways even a half-assed deity could accomplish it......

can you distinguish your 'deity' from that alternative we discussed earlier.....one who wishes to communicate, but is unable to?......

On the contrary, if a deity were to actually exist AND it wanted to communicate to us through the written word, it wouldn't allow human hands to taint the message. An omnipotent deity would surely have edited something as potentially important.

[DannyR]

How can you do good things with your life and call it a waste?Its not the good things I think are the waste, but those who sit around all day basically praying, fasting, purging themselves and otherwise punishing their bodies in service to a god that isn't there. If they were out on the streets helping people, more power to them. Far too often though most "christians" feel they've done their good deeds by writing out a check and sitting in a pew on sunday, and then spend the rest of the week pretty much ignoring the teachings they supposedly live by.


And somehow encouraging people to live honest moral lives is a bad thing? And pastors shouldnt be paid.Jeremiah Wright comes to mind. ;-)


But you don't have to. Why on earth would you just conclude to send yourself to hell with no discussion at all with the Lord? It just doesn't make any sense.Perhaps I don't want to worship a God that has the audacity to send people to hell because they don't want to bow down before him.


I can understand being skeptical, but it's the "Oh I dont know anything about God, therefore Im not going to do a damn thing to find out anything" attitude that I dont get. ...You are assuming I don't know all about God. Sorry, other way around. I grew up in a conservative southern baptist church, did the born again thing, went to revivals and was a "good" christian all the way till my college years. I've read the Bible backward and forward umpteen times. I'm not certain exactly what more I could do to "learn" about God than I already have.

Fact is, its through learning about religion that I chose to leave it behind. My wife has an M.Div, and I attended most of her classes with her in seminary. There I saw how many myths I'd been told growing up were false. The Bible wasn't inerrant. The authors the gospels were attested to probably weren't. The very selection of what books to include was extremely political.

And its in learning more about science that more flaws came to light, as all the creation myths were proven to me to be just that, myths. I labeled myself an agnostic for several years, keeping some doubt. Eventually I realized it was just the fear of abandoning the drug of choice of the majority, so I finally broke the addiction. Atheists aren't popular, even though they are right. :laugh2:

Now I won't say religion serves no purpose. Its great for relieving stress. But thats a placebo effect, and you can achieve the same happiness without it. I am just as happy without God as I ever was with him. If he wants to damn me to hell for that, he's not a God I care to know.

[PostmodernProphet]

Operating under the assumption that the shared roots of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam lend any or all of them any credibility is your first problem.

apparently you are unaware of what we are discussing.....I have lent no one credibility at this point.....I discuss them jointly because they deal with the same deity.....the only deity we have identified that claims to communicate with the created......you have had ample opportunity to suggest others, but have not availed yourself of that opportunity....



Your second is an assumption that words on paper makes the middle-eastern based religions more credible than any other. But, by all means, proceed with your exercise in mental masturbation. A few posts from now, you'll slap yourself on the back and proclaim you've proven that your god is real through the power of logic. I can hardly wait...need a good laugh.

again, I have made no such assumption....we are discussing written communications because all three religions that speak regarding YHWH have written communications.....and to be fair, you ought to at least try to raise some arguments, so I could have as good a chance at laughing at you....instead, all I can do is wonder why you bother to post in a thread you have no intention of contributing to.....

[PostmodernProphet]

An omnipotent deity would surely have edited something as potentially important.

??....and how do you know he hasn't?.....

[Missileman]

it always strikes me as amusing that atheists can't come up with original arguments.....is there some atheist web site somewhere where you guys store the pink bunnies and spaghetti monsters so you can just cut and paste them.......

Written by one of the sheeple...:laugh2: Tell me how the pink bunny argument differs at all from the one posited by Avatar'




apparently he is right, you ARE afraid to examine things for truth, it's so much easier to just read the atheist "think for me" sites.....

ROFL! That's right, change the subject instead of making a counter- argument. And puhlease! Someone whose entire existence is tied to the dogma of ancient Jews has a problem with "think for me" sites...:lmao: That's rich!

FYI, I don't frequent atheist websites, nor would I need to best any argument the likes of yours.

[Missileman]

??....and how do you know he hasn't?.....

Consider the book of Leviticus. It says that God spoke to Moses to tell him exactly how to handle any situation that might arise in the areas of sacrifices, what parts of what animals were suitable for consumption, etc.

How much of that book is expected to be followed today? Why hasn't your deity struck the non-applicable parts from everyone's Bibles?

[PostmodernProphet]

ROFL! That's right, change the subject instead of making a counter- argument.

WTF?.....I have to admit it takes a lot of nerve for you to post that when you haven't bothered to even respond to any of my arguments....

[PostmodernProphet]

Written by one of the sheeple...:laugh2: Tell me how the pink bunny argument differs at all from the one posited by Avatar'
.

why, so you can succeed in sidetracking this debate....no thanks....

[PostmodernProphet]

nor would I need to best any argument the likes of yours.

odd then you won't get off your lazy ass and try.....

[PostmodernProphet]

How much of that book is expected to be followed today?

by the Jews?....I assume all of it....wouldn't know, I'm not Jewish....the reasons why Christians don't is abundantly clear in our holy documents.....

as far as THIS debate is concerned, we aren't there yet.....we are still at the point we left it with post #152....unfortunately, since your 'think for me' site hasn't covered my argument for you, you don't know how to respond to me yet.....

[Yurt]

Remember for future reference that these are your words, not mine.




Really? Can you provide any evidence that politics are a consideration in mental health diagnoses?

feel free to bring that post up over and over....IF is the key word moron

[PostmodernProphet]

Why hasn't your deity struck the non-applicable parts from everyone's Bibles?

by the way, did you really intend to use an edit as an example of him not editing?........

[Missileman]

WTF?.....I have to admit it takes a lot of nerve for you to post that when you haven't bothered to even respond to any of my arguments....

Do I have to call you a fucking liar again?

[Missileman]

why, so you can succeed in sidetracking this debate....no thanks....

Typical...you respond initially, and then retreat behind excuses when the realization that you can't possibly win the point sets in. :lame2:

[Missileman]

odd then you won't get off your lazy ass and try.....

I've beaten you like a drum, bonehead.

[Missileman]

feel free to bring that post up over and over....IF is the key word moron

Care to respond to the rest of that post or are you a "run and hide" kinda poster too?

[Missileman]

by the way, did you really intend to use an edit as an example of him not editing?........

Please rephrase in the form of a coherent question.

[PostmodernProphet]

Do I have to call you a fucking liar again?
.....it would be no more appropriate than it was on the other occasions ....why do all our debates end with you denying the necessity to debate?.....if you care to be relevant to the thread, pick up where we left off at #152.....otherwise, don't waste our time......

[Missileman]

....why do all our debates end with you denying the necessity to debate?......

Maybe it's because you can't get through a thread without writing something that isn't true.

[avatar4321]

Anyone who, along with their coreligionists, claim to have a lock on the "truth" is being arrogant in the extreme.

If you have true faith in God, you are always seeking more light and truth. Because there is lots of light and truth in the world. Simply being aware of God's existance is but one part of it. He has a lot more to teach us if we are willing.

However, there is also a point where you do know something. I know the sun will come up in the morning. It hasnt happened yet, but I do know it. Do I have to question every night whether it's going to come up?

My point is you need to be always seeking greater knowledge. There is always a higher level of light and truth with which God is willing to bless you.

[avatar4321]

No, I'm not wrong. Since he keeps basing all his circular arguments on what he perceives to be the truth, my use of the adjective "your" is warranted. And, it might serve you well to seek out those invisible pink bunny rabbits too. You just have to believe. What? Still can't see them? You're not trying hard enough.

Then you are clearly not reading.

Do you know that God does not exist?

If you do not know whether He exists or not, why do you presume that others dont?

If you do not know whether He exists or not, why are you not seeking to learn this fact. Because until you learn one way or another, you should be seeking out this knowledge.

If you choose not to search for this knowledge, how are you not keeping yourself in ignorance?

Where exactly am I wrong here?

[avatar4321]

Its not the good things I think are the waste, but those who sit around all day basically praying, fasting, purging themselves and otherwise punishing their bodies in service to a god that isn't there. If they were out on the streets helping people, more power to them. Far too often though most "christians" feel they've done their good deeds by writing out a check and sitting in a pew on sunday, and then spend the rest of the week pretty much ignoring the teachings they supposedly live by.

But prayer does do good. Prayers are answered all the time. They've done studies showing that prayer is effective in healing people even when the people being healed had no clue about it.

Fasting is done for non-religious purposes all the time. Self discipline and control of our bodies is not a waste of time. It be nice if more people exercised self discipline.


Jeremiah Wright comes to mind. ;-)

Like I said, Pastors shouldnt be paid. Some may disagree with me. But I dont think God wants us making money for preaching His word.


Perhaps I don't want to worship a God that has the audacity to send people to hell because they don't want to bow down before him.

Then you've completely misunderstood what hell is and do not understand what God is trying to do. Which isnt a surprise, you probably havent studied it in depth, or what you have been taught has been twisted.




You are assuming I don't know all about God. Sorry, other way around. I grew up in a conservative southern baptist church, did the born again thing, went to revivals and was a "good" christian all the way till my college years. I've read the Bible backward and forward umpteen times. I'm not certain exactly what more I could do to "learn" about God than I already have.

Have you had a single revelation? Have you had any interaction with the Divine?

You can learn more in a 5 min converastion with the Lord than by reading all the books there are on the subject. The simple fact is you read the Bible and you decided not to believe. You dont know for sure whether there is a God or not.

Which, of course, is my point. If you don't know but choose not to believe, why do you expect others to agree with you when they continue to seek out God till they find Him and they do believe because of it? If you stop trying to learn from the Source. Then, of course, you won't believe because you are trying to figure things out according to your own understanding. And you cant understand the things of the Spirit without the Spirit. I know this from experience, I tried to intellectualize everything. And it wasnt until the Spirit was involved that everything became infinitely more clear.

The fact is people can know whether God exists or not. They learn the same way Peter did. But if you arent even bothering to look, then how do you expect to ever learn anything? How can you do anything but remain in ignorance concerning whether God exists or not?


Fact is, its through learning about religion that I chose to leave it behind. My wife has an M.Div, and I attended most of her classes with her in seminary. There I saw how many myths I'd been told growing up were false. The Bible wasn't inerrant. The authors the gospels were attested to probably weren't. The very selection of what books to include was extremely political.

I agree, the Bible isnt inerrant. and it's foolish when Christians make it so. We are supposed to worship a perfect God, not a perfect Bible. The scriptures are a tool to help us learn for ourselves by showing us how to do it. So if you havent had any revelations, I completely understand why you eventually chose not to believe. But chosing to disbelieve in God, and knowing He doesnt exist are two different things. You still dont know whether He exists or not. You just have decided that with the evidence you've seen He doesnt.

I on the other hand think that you always be seeking to learn. If I didnt know, I would seek until I did know. It might take time and patience, but then that's exactly what I did do. I patiently studied, prayed, and sought truth. I presumed that if God existed, He could reveal the truth of His existance to me in some manner that I'd recognize. He did. I am a witness to that.

Of course, I don't expect you to believe me just because I said so. What I expect of people is that they choose to find out for themselves. I completely understand why people dont believe me. Because its not me who convinces people. My responsibility is just to stand as a witness and encourage people continue to learn. Because if you shut yourself off to the possibility before you know the truth of the matter, you cant progress anywhere. You remain in ignorance. And why stay in ignorance?


And its in learning more about science that more flaws came to light, as all the creation myths were proven to me to be just that, myths. I labeled myself an agnostic for several years, keeping some doubt. Eventually I realized it was just the fear of abandoning the drug of choice of the majority, so I finally broke the addiction. Atheists aren't popular, even though they are right. :laugh2:

You act like science is some irrevocable fact. Science, like anything else in life is infalliable as well. We don't know everything to presume we did is foolish. Science evolves as we learn more, as well it should. It doesnt explain the Why's of life. And I don't believe there is a contradiction between faith and science. We have an incomplete view of life through both. It's not wise to ignore any source of knowledge.


Now I won't say religion serves no purpose. Its great for relieving stress. But thats a placebo effect, and you can achieve the same happiness without it. I am just as happy without God as I ever was with him. If he wants to damn me to hell for that, he's not a God I care to know.

And you know, God will let you be as happy as you are able. You are making your choices, and you know you will get exactly what you want. That's just how things work.

[PostmodernProphet]

Maybe it's because you can't get through a thread without writing something that isn't true.

link it my sweet little fuckwit......

[Missileman]

Then you are clearly not reading.

Do you know that God does not exist?

If you do not know whether He exists or not, why do you presume that others dont?

If you do not know whether He exists or not, why are you not seeking to learn this fact. Because until you learn one way or another, you should be seeking out this knowledge.

If you choose not to search for this knowledge, how are you not keeping yourself in ignorance?

Where exactly am I wrong here?

Your truth is that there is a god...my truth is that there is not. I have arrived at my truth through careful deliberation and in the same way that you feel no compulsion to seek out invisible bunnies, I have no compulsion to seek out something that I've already determined doesn't exist, AKA, your god. Until your non-existant god himself pops in for a visit, no amount of mumbo-jumbo is going to alter my truth.

You are wrong here because all of your arguments hinge on the assumption that there is a god...all of them. You make no allowance that my position in the matter is correct and that you are the one keeping yourself in ignorance.

[Missileman]

link it my sweet little fuckwit......

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=359017&postcount=166


Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet
WTF?.....I have to admit it takes a lot of nerve for you to post that when you haven't bothered to even respond to any of my arguments....

The highlighted part is untrue.

[Missileman]

You can learn more in a 5 min converastion with the Lord than by reading all the books there are on the subject.

Are you claiming to have had an actual conversation with a god?



The fact is people can know whether God exists or not. They learn the same way Peter did. But if you arent even bothering to look, then how do you expect to ever learn anything? How can you do anything but remain in ignorance concerning whether God exists or not?

Sorry Av, but EVERY argument you've put forth is that a person can only know that God exists.

[PostmodernProphet]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=359017&postcount=166



The highlighted part is untrue.
/shrugs.....no it isn't....a quick review of the thread shows you have responded to none of the points I have raised......your attempts to derail the debate hardly count as a response.....

[avatar4321]

Your truth is that there is a god...my truth is that there is not. I have arrived at my truth through careful deliberation and in the same way that you feel no compulsion to seek out invisible bunnies, I have no compulsion to seek out something that I've already determined doesn't exist, AKA, your god. Until your non-existant god himself pops in for a visit, no amount of mumbo-jumbo is going to alter my truth.

You are wrong here because all of your arguments hinge on the assumption that there is a god...all of them. You make no allowance that my position in the matter is correct and that you are the one keeping yourself in ignorance.

There is only one truth. We both arent right.

God exists. It's not an assumption. It's a fact. You may not accept that fact, but it's a fact nonetheless. You may think we live in a world where contrary facts can exist, but we don't. Either you are right, or I am right.

I have no desire to exist in a fantasy world of my own creation. That is why I seek out information and ground myself to reality. I made allowances for your position when I didn't know the truth. Once I learned it, your position cannot sustain itself.

I don't know why you seem to think that God can exist and not exist. It's simply not possible.

It's not ignorant to seek an answer and accept it when you learn it. It is ignorant to make a conclusion and not seek out the truth. You can try calling me ignorant or arrogant or whatever all day long. Logic isn't on your side here. There is only one truth. Either God exists or He doesn't. I can promise you that God exists. You don't have to believe me. I completely understand why you don't. But that doesnt make it truth any more than my asserting it makes it truth.

Truth is reality. Truth is things are they are, things as they were, and things as they will become.

At one point, society exalted learning truth. Now it seems too many people settle for pretending it doesnt exist.

If I stated you dont exist, this is my truth. Would it be correct? Of course not. You are there. Even if I never met you or knew of your existance, would you cease to exist simply because I didnt know any of this? Of course not. You'd still exist.

And what If I said, Ive already concluded you don't exist. Therefore you cant possibly exist and I choose not to seek out information about whether you exist. wouldn't I be laughed out off this board? The argument makes no sense.

God isnt silent. He hasnt stopped acting in the lives of people. The signs are all around. Not only that but He has no problem sharing them with those who seek such knowledge. And He will willingly give all men the knowledge they seek because He is no respector of persons. He gives all men according to their desires.

You don't want to know God. That is your choice, and I respect that. That doesnt mean it's truth.

[Missileman]

/shrugs.....no it isn't....a quick review of the thread shows you have responded to none of the points I have raised......your attempts to derail the debate hardly count as a response.....

I clearly answered one of you arguments in post 134. Your disapproval or disagreement with my answer doesn't constitute a non-answer on my part. Should I find another, or are you willing to concede that you lied?

[Yurt]

I clearly answered one of you arguments in post 134. Your disapproval or disagreement with my answer doesn't constitute a non-answer on my part. Should I find another, or are you willing to concede that you lied?


you sound just like MFM....in fact he said the same exact words today in some creepy PM to me on another board.

lighten up dude.....don't go down that path.

[PostmodernProphet]

I clearly answered one of you arguments in post 134. Your disapproval or disagreement with my answer doesn't constitute a non-answer on my part. Should I find another, or are you willing to concede that you lied?

I will concede you don't know what you are talking about......the arguments I have laid out in this thread in response to Bully's question are hard to miss......though you have succeeded, somehow.....the fact that you have tried to sidetrack the debate does not count in your favor.....you've always been nothing more than a time waster on this board.....

[Missileman]

There is only one truth. We both arent right.

In a pre-answer to the next part let me say, I'm right and you're wrong. Feel free to drag out any proof you have that I'm wrong.


God exists. It's not an assumption. It's a fact. You may not accept that fact, but it's a fact nonetheless. You may think we live in a world where contrary facts can exist, but we don't. Either you are right, or I am right.

ROFL...you just can't help yourself. But based on the first three sentences, the proper final line would read , "either I am right, or I am right"


I don't know why you seem to think that God can exist and not exist. It's simply not possible.

Where have I argued that a deity is a "maybe" proposition?


It's not ignorant to seek an answer and accept it when you learn it. It is ignorant to make a conclusion and not seek out the truth. You can try calling me ignorant or arrogant or whatever all day long. Logic isn't on your side here. There is only one truth. Either God exists or He doesn't. I can promise you that God exists. You don't have to believe me. I completely understand why you don't. But that doesnt make it truth any more than my asserting it makes it truth.

Riggggght! And he's got a lap full of invisible pink bunnies.


Truth is reality. Truth is things are they are, things as they were, and things as they will become.

At one point, society exalted learning truth. Now it seems too many people settle for pretending it doesnt exist.

As I've said, my truth exists. Your continued denial of its existence will not make it go away.


If I stated you dont exist, this is my truth. Would it be correct? Of course not. You are there. Even if I never met you or knew of your existance, would you cease to exist simply because I didnt know any of this? Of course not. You'd still exist.

And I'm reasonably sure that a slap to the side of your head would prove my existence.


And what If I said, Ive already concluded you don't exist. Therefore you cant possibly exist and I choose not to seek out information about whether you exist. wouldn't I be laughed out off this board? The argument makes no sense.

God isnt silent. He hasnt stopped acting in the lives of people. The signs are all around. Not only that but He has no problem sharing them with those who seek such knowledge. And He will willingly give all men the knowledge they seek because He is no respector of persons. He gives all men according to their desires.

You don't want to know God. That is your choice, and I respect that. That doesnt mean it's truth.

Ditto on your belief in a god.

[Missileman]

you sound just like MFM....in fact he said the same exact words today in some creepy PM to me on another board.

lighten up dude.....don't go down that path.

When I quite clearly respond to several of someone's posts and they then start throwing around BS about my not having done so, I am going to point it out. I haven't sent any PMs(creepy or otherwise) to PMP. I'm not going down some path.

[Missileman]

I will concede you don't know what you are talking about......the arguments I have laid out in this thread in response to Bully's question are hard to miss......though you have succeeded, somehow.....the fact that you have tried to sidetrack the debate does not count in your favor.....you've always been nothing more than a time waster on this board.....

Did you or did you not present an argument in post 132?

When you pull your head out of your ass and answer yes to the above question, swing by post 134 and you'll find that I responded to it. As I stated earlier, your disagreement with or disapproval of my response does not constitute a non-response on my part.

[PostmodernProphet]

Did you or did you not present an argument in post 132?

When you pull your head out of your ass and answer yes to the above question, swing by post 134 and you'll find that I responded to it. As I stated earlier, your disagreement with or disapproval of my response does not constitute a non-response on my part.

no, it was not part of the debate I was laying out in this thread, it was your attempt to sidetrack the thread from that debate.....that should be obvious even to you.....now, if you would like to redeem your sorry ass without further embarrassment, feel free to respond to the debate or drop the stupid act......as I said, attempts to derail, though expected of you, do not work to your credit....

[Missileman]

no, it was not part of the debate I was laying out in this thread, it was your attempt to sidetrack the thread from that debate.....that should be obvious even to you.....now, if you would like to redeem your sorry ass without further embarrassment, feel free to respond to the debate or drop the stupid act......as I said, attempts to derail, though expected of you, do not work to your credit....

REALLY? You felt it so much a part of the debate that 132 was in fact repeated from an earlier post that YOU made. So let's recap. YOU make an argument that you accuse BP and I of ignoring and then YOU repeat it in another post(#132). This, according to you is an attempt on MY part to sidetrack the debate. You then deny that I responded to this repititious post when I clearly did so in post 134. I can only conclude that along with being an unrepentant liar, you're also an illiterate retard. Enjoy your stay in ignore land!

[bullypulpit]

If you have true faith in God, you are always seeking more light and truth. Because there is lots of light and truth in the world. Simply being aware of God's existance is but one part of it. He has a lot more to teach us if we are willing.

However, there is also a point where you do know something. I know the sun will come up in the morning. It hasnt happened yet, but I do know it. Do I have to question every night whether it's going to come up?

My point is you need to be always seeking greater knowledge. There is always a higher level of light and truth with which God is willing to bless you.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking greater knowledge. But to claim that the route to said knowledge can only come from the beneficence of one's favorite deity is arrogance...and ignorance.

[DannyR]

But prayer does do good. Prayers are answered all the time. They've done studies showing that prayer is effective in healing people even when the people being healed had no clue about it.link? I'd like to see those studies.


Then you've completely misunderstood what hell is and do not understand what God is trying to do. Which isnt a surprise, you probably havent studied it in depth, or what you have been taught has been twisted.what's your interpretation of hell? I know different faiths have vastly different interpretations of it.


Have you had a single revelation? Have you had any interaction with the Divine?I'd say no, because I don't believe the divine exists. I hear from my conscience all the time. I had the belief God called me when I was saved. Strong emotional reactions however aren't the Divine.


You can learn more in a 5 min converastion with the Lord than by reading all the books there are on the subject.Gods welcome to talk to me anytime he wants.

The simple fact is you read the Bible and you decided not to believe. You dont know for sure whether there is a God or not.I'm quite confident there isn't. I've yet to see any proof otherwise. Love to see your prayer studies.


And it wasnt until the Spirit was involved that everything became infinitely more clear.To that I can only respond as Galileo did: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them." Evidence of God should be clear via science if he exists. Its not.


The fact is people can know whether God exists or not. They learn the same way Peter did. Jesus can walk up to me as well and talk to me anytime he wants.


Because if you shut yourself off to the possibility before you know the truth of the matter, you cant progress anywhere. You remain in ignorance. And why stay in ignorance?Again however, I've been in your shoes. I feel its you who remains in ignorance. Pretty much every argument you've made I can say the same. Why do you shut yourself off from what science tells you.


Science, like anything else in life is infalliable as well. We don't know everything to presume we did is foolish. Science evolves as we learn more, as well it should. It doesnt explain the Why's of life. And I don't believe there is a contradiction between faith and science. We have an incomplete view of life through both. It's not wise to ignore any source of knowledge.Science as you said evolves. If something is found to be in error, the discovery is made because of science as well. Its a self correcting process. If the source of knowledge is measurable and verifiable, then its under the purview of science. Its not wise to attribute to God things that are eventually explainable by science, if not at this moment, then in the future. Sure, science at this time can't disprove God. It can't prove it either. When it does, I may reconsider. Until then, I go by what my own experiences tell me.

[PostmodernProphet]

REALLY? You felt it so much a part of the debate that 132 was in fact repeated from an earlier post that YOU made. So let's recap. YOU make an argument that you accuse BP and I of ignoring and then YOU repeat it in another post(#132). This, according to you is an attempt on MY part to sidetrack the debate. You then deny that I responded to this repititious post when I clearly did so in post 134. I can only conclude that along with being an unrepentant liar, you're also an illiterate retard. Enjoy your stay in ignore land!

/shrug....just another fuckwit post......

[bullypulpit]

to save you both time, here it is again.....

presuming a deity who chooses to communicate to us and chooses to do so by means of a writen communication, would it be logical to believe that he would not be capable of making sure that which he wanted communicated would be found in the written communication?.......

You assume the existence of something which has never been demonstrably proven to exist.

[-Cp]

What do you think of the prophecies of the end of the days? I dont really care what religion we are talking about them. I think its a fascinating topic.

What do you think The Lord will do in these days?

The scripture makes it clear that the "last days" were in the first century AD.
The last days of Judaism.
The temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in AD 70.

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
1Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
I Peter 4:7 The end of all things has drawn near.


Many say that after the gospel is preached in remote parts of
Africa that haven't been reached yet, then the end will come.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The scripture makes it clear that this was accomplished before AD 70.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith
Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven

[PostmodernProphet]

You assume the existence of something which has never been demonstrably proven to exist.

???....yeah, that happens sometimes during debates....as I recall we discussed the option "there is no deity" in the first level of the debate and acknowledged that there was little reason in that scenario to discuss "how would the deity communicate with humanity".......are you so closed minded that you are still stuck on the first post?.........

[PostmodernProphet]

I consider it ironic....Bully asked how we can tell what a deity wills.....we bring the discussion to the point where we can say that the only deity who claims to have communicated his will to us has the will that we acknowledge he exists.....and Bully is incapable of participating in the discussion because he refuses to believe the deity exists......